R.C. Church Kudos

[Skirmisher]

I have many issues with the church but also readily acknowledge they do a great deal of good and this is perhaps the most recent example I have read of.

Their stance on 'The proposed Border Protection, Antiterrorism and Illegal Immigration Control bill, which was approved by the House of Representatives in December and is expected to be taken up by the Senate next week, would among other things subject to five years in prison anyone who "assists" an undocumented immigrant "to remain in the United States."' is entirely admirable.

The letter printed in the NYTimes from the Arch Bishop of LA is below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/22/opinion/22mahony.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

March 22, 2006
Op-Ed Contributor
Called by God to Help
By ROGER MAHONY

Los Angeles

I'VE received a lot of criticism for stating last month that I would instruct the priests of my archdiocese to disobey a proposed law that would subject them, as well as other church and humanitarian workers, to criminal penalties. The proposed Border Protection, Antiterrorism and Illegal Immigration Control bill, which was approved by the House of Representatives in December and is expected to be taken up by the Senate next week, would among other things subject to five years in prison anyone who "assists" an undocumented immigrant "to remain in the United States."

Some supporters of the bill have even accused the church of encouraging illegal immigration and meddling in politics. But I stand by my statement. Part of the mission of the Roman Catholic Church is to help people in need. It is our Gospel mandate, in which Christ instructs us to clothe the naked, feed the poor and welcome the stranger. Indeed, the Catholic Church, through Catholic Charities agencies around the country, is one of the largest nonprofit providers of social services in the nation, serving both citizens and immigrants.

Providing humanitarian assistance to those in need should not be made a crime, as the House bill decrees. As written, the proposed law is so broad that it would criminalize even minor acts of mercy like offering a meal or administering first aid.

Current law does not require social service agencies to obtain evidence of legal status before rendering aid, nor should it. Denying aid to a fellow human being violates a law with a higher authority than Congress — the law of God.

That does not mean that the Catholic Church encourages or supports illegal immigration. Every day in our parishes, social service programs, hospitals and schools, we witness the baleful consequences of illegal immigration. Families are separated, workers are exploited and migrants are left by smugglers to die in the desert. Illegal immigration serves neither the migrant nor the common good.

What the church supports is an overhaul of the immigration system so that legal status and legal channels for migration replace illegal status and illegal immigration. Creating legal structures for migration protects not only those who migrate but also our nation, by giving the government the ability to better identify who is in the country as well as to control who enters it.

Only comprehensive reform of the immigration system, embodied in the principles of another proposal in Congress, the Secure America and Orderly Immigration bill, will help solve our current immigration crisis.

Enforcement-only proposals like the Border Protection act take the country in the opposite direction. Increasing penalties, building more detention centers and erecting walls along our border with Mexico, as the act provides, will not solve the problem.

The legislation will not deter migrants who are desperate to survive and support their families from seeking jobs in the United States. It will only drive them further into the shadows, encourage the creation of more elaborate smuggling networks and cause hardship and suffering. I hope that the Senate will not take the same enforcement-only road as the House.

The unspoken truth of the immigration debate is that at the same time our nation benefits economically from the presence of undocumented workers, we turn a blind eye when they are exploited by employers. They work in industries that are vital to our economy yet they have little legal protection and no opportunity to contribute fully to our nation.

While we gladly accept their taxes and sweat, we do not acknowledge or uphold their basic labor rights. At the same time, we scapegoat them for our social ills and label them as security threats and criminals to justify the passage of anti-immigrant bills.

This situation affects the dignity of millions of our fellow human beings and makes immigration, ultimately, a moral and ethical issue. That is why the church is compelled to take a stand against harmful legislation and to work toward positive change.

It is my hope that our elected officials will understand this and enact immigration reform that respects our common humanity and reflects the values — fairness, compassion and opportunity — upon which our nation, a nation of immigrants, was built.

Roger Mahony is the cardinal archbishop of Los Angeles.

[Jorddyn]

...Part of the mission of the Roman Catholic Church is to help people in need. It is our Gospel mandate, in which Christ instructs us to clothe the naked, feed the poor and welcome the stranger...

...Providing humanitarian assistance to those in need should not be made a crime, as the House bill decrees. As written, the proposed law is so broad that it would criminalize even minor acts of mercy like offering a meal or administering first aid...

...Enforcement-only proposals like the Border Protection act take the country in the opposite direction. Increasing penalties, building more detention centers and erecting walls along our border with Mexico, as the act provides, will not solve the problem...

...The unspoken truth of the immigration debate is that at the same time our nation benefits economically from the presence of undocumented workers, we turn a blind eye when they are exploited by employers. They work in industries that are vital to our economy yet they have little legal protection and no opportunity to contribute fully to our nation.

While we gladly accept their taxes and sweat, we do not acknowledge or uphold their basic labor rights...

Quoted passages are those which make me actually proud to be Catholic, which is a rather rare feeling for me.

It is so easy to say that immigrants are stealing our jobs, and mooching off of our tax dollars. The truth of it is, they're taking the jobs that nobody else wants, and are still paying taxes.

I've worked detassling, at a car dealership, at an investment accounting firm, at a public accounting firm, at a seed corn company, and currently at a poultry processing company. Which do you suppose had some of the least sought-after jobs? Which do you suppose had the largest problems with illegal immigrants? The jobs the immigrants (legal and illegal) are "stealing" are those that most Americans wouldn't do anyway.


Roger Mahony is the cardinal archbishop of Los Angeles.

Rah for the Irish!

Jorddyn

[WhiteTrash]

It is so easy to say that immigrants are stealing our jobs, and mooching off of our tax dollars. The truth of it is, they're taking the jobs that nobody else wants, and are still paying taxes.


Not entirely true. I've met quite a few folks that had to find new jobs because they can't compete with a crew of illegals. They make it damn hard to work in construction down here in Texas

[radamanthys]

Current law does not require social service agencies to obtain evidence of legal status before rendering aid, nor should it. Denying aid to a fellow human being violates a law with a higher authority than Congress — the law of God.

Stopped reading there. Once someone says that the law of god should be higher than secular law, with regards to our governance... I stop listening.

[Sean of the Thread]

HAHAHH ROFL @ BEING PROUD OF CATHOLICISM!!!

Also most of the "immigrants" here in florida are illegal and they take all the contruction/roofing/plumbing etc work .. for much less money .. and do not pay taxes.

Get a grip.

[Skirmisher]

All of you people who bitch about illegals are quite plainly full of shit.

You are more than happy to take work done for you by them because it is cheaper, and you know damned well you do, and then bitch about them taking jobs.

If all the people who "talk" about the problem illegals are in this country actually put their wallet where their mouth is and did not give any business to companies and businesses that employ illegal workers those companies would quickly find other ways to do business.

You all however do not because you like your cheap prices.

This letter however is about the Churches announcement to help those in need no matter if they are legal residents of the US or not..

If you are going to sit back and bash them for that then have a good time.

And Xyelin, the RC church has plenty of flaws, that I will be more than happy to agree with, but this is not one of them.

[Jorddyn]

Not entirely true. I've met quite a few folks that had to find new jobs because they can't compete with a crew of illegals. They make it damn hard to work in construction down here in Texas

I'm sorry to hear that. Whoever hired them should get in mucho trouble-o, then.

Here? The jobs that immigrants have, nobody else wants - gutting turkeys, shoveling offal. We cannot get a large enough crew of non-immigrant labor without paying so much that we're out of business in a year. 1500 employees x $2/hour x 2000 hours/year = $6 million added expense = no reason to stay in business.

Jorddyn

[Jorddyn]

Also most of the "immigrants" here in florida are illegal and they take all the contruction/roofing/plumbing etc work .. for much less money .. and do not pay taxes.

If they aren't paying taxes, you should report their employer. Employers are required by law to withhold not only Social Security but also Federal and State taxes.

If they are day laborers, report the labor operation that hired them. They are still required to get identification.


Get a grip.

Am I forgetting slaughtering your first born child, or did something crawl up your ass and die? Otherwise, I can't figure out what the fuck your problem is, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop.

Jorddyn

[Jorddyn]

If all the people who "talk" about the problem illegals are in this country actually put their wallet where their mouth is and did not give any business to companies and businesses that employ illegal workers those companies would quickly find other ways to do business.

You all however do not because you like your cheap prices.

Ding ding ding.

Jorddyn

[Sean of the Thread]

If they aren't paying taxes, you should report their employer. Employers are required by law to withhold not only Social Security but also Federal and State taxes.

If they are day laborers, report the labor operation that hired them. They are still required to get identification.



Am I forgetting slaughtering your first born child, or did something crawl up your ass and die? Otherwise, I can't figure out what the fuck your problem is, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop.

Jorddyn


This is the real world Jorddyn/Skirm. Illegals are a very big problem in some parts of the country with Florida being one of them. I have no problem with you per say. But if I don't agree with one of your posts don't have a crying shit fit over my response.

Go report 40,000 illegals in this county? YEAH.

[Jorddyn]

This is the real world Jorddyn.. go report 40,000 illegals in this county? YEAH.

Right, right, much easier to stop them one by one from coming in than it is to work to shut down the demand for them.

Jorddyn

[Sean of the Thread]

Right, right, much easier to stop them one by one from coming in than it is to work to shut down the demand for them.

Jorddyn

Well if that's the answer get off your fat ass and start reporting. In the meantime let Dave do his job on the border.

[Jorddyn]

Well if that's the answer get off your fat ass and start reporting. In the meantime let Dave do his job on the border.

I am not the one bitching about illegal immigrants, it is you. I'm suggesting what you can do to help solve what you see as a problem.

I'm also pointing out a much better solution than the onesy-twosy catches at the border.

And, again I ask, what's with the fucking attitude that seems to be directed at me?

Jorddyn

[Alfster]

I think you get attitude because you're a bitch.

[Skirmisher]

But Jorddyn, it's so much easier to just bitch about them.

Don't ask them to actually DO something that would without any question curtail the use.

Lets instead make more of those great political ads about the terrible brown menace to the south like backlash i think it was posted a few days ago.

Thats the way to go for sure.

[Sean of the Thread]

I am not the one bitching about illegal immigrants, it is you. I'm suggesting what you can do to help solve what you see as a problem.

I'm also pointing out a much better solution than the onesy-twosy catches at the border.

And, again I ask, what's with the fucking attitude that seems to be directed at me?

Jorddyn

I'm not bitching about illegals I'm just bringing to your attention that it isn't a "phantom" problem like you make it out to be. Tighter borders ARE important in curbing the problem as is all of the COMMON SENSE items you pointed out.

I don't have an attitude directed at you. Sorry you take someone disagreeing with you as an attitude.

[ElanthianSiren]

My aunt is very hardline on border control (because she used to run a division of a company called Coaster in NJ, and they had extensive problems with illegals), but it's still one of those issues where I just raise an eyebrow; if you go back far enough, most of us are immigrants. American Indians do not make up very much of the US Census; where's the difference then between the family that came during the Irish famines and the foreign family that wants to immigrate today? I don't advocate an open border policy before someone shouts security or terrorism. I think we still need to know who is coming into this country, why, and for how long, not that a terrorist wouldn't lie anyway. In short, I'm asking what all the fuss is over.

I'm certainly proud of the catholic church for standing up for what is only humane, decent, and in accordance to the tradition of the US (or at least the Statue of Liberty).

-M

[Jorddyn]

I think you get attitude because you're a bitch.

Um, wow, Hi to you, too.


I don't have an attitude directed at you. Sorry you take someone disagreeing with you as an attitude.

I don't. I take the following as attitude:


HAHAHH ROFL @ BEING PROUD OF CATHOLICISM!!!
...
Get a grip.


But if I don't agree with one of your posts don't have a crying shit fit over my response.


Well if that's the answer get off your fat ass and start reporting.

Jorddyn

[Jorddyn]

And to respond to the actual point of the thread...


I'm not bitching about illegals I'm just bringing to your attention that it isn't a "phantom" problem like you make it out to be. Tighter borders ARE important in curbing the problem as is all of the COMMON SENSE items you pointed out.

I'm not saying it is a phantom problem. I'm saying that the blame for the problem belongs on many people - not just immigrants, and that the facts of the problem are largely misunderstood.

Jorddyn

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm not bitching about them but just pointing out to the 2 posters who said "it isn't a problem stop making it up! omg omg sand in my vagina omg!!"

The problem is they are for the most part not "immigrating" to live here. They come.. use our free services/medicaid/clinics/hospitals WITHOUT ID/social and work for cash. The live 15 to an apartment. They send that cash back to <insert dirthole> and then move back and live like kings.

Why not just do it legally and haul ass when you're done?

[Sean of the Thread]

And to respond to the actual point of the thread...



I'm not saying it is a phantom problem. I'm saying that the blame for the problem belongs on many people - not just immigrants, and that the facts of the problem are largely misunderstood.

Jorddyn


Uhm they're not IMMIGRANTS that are the problem. The problem is ILLEGALs!

[Skirmisher]

I'm not bitching about them but just pointing out to the 2 posters who said "it isn't a problem stop making it up! omg omg sand in my vagina omg!!"

The problem is they are for the most part not "immigrating" to live here. They come.. use our free services/medicaid/clinics/hospitals WITHOUT ID/social and work for cash. The live 15 to an apartment. They send that cash back to <insert dirthole> and then move back and live like kings.

Why not just do it legally and haul ass when you're done?

Wow, if you really believe that that is the case you kn ow so little about the average illegal it would be laughable if it were not also so common an assumption by those who rail against the illegal workers here so often.

And do try to keep the insulting hyperbole to yourself and speak on the topic instead.

[Sean of the Thread]

I stand by my statement. I will amend it to "Common Florida Illegal" however.

This is the common Florida breed of illegal and is representive of ALMOST all illegals here in Florida.

"The problem is they are for the most part not "immigrating" to live here. They come.. use our free services/medicaid/clinics/hospitals WITHOUT ID/social and work for cash. The live 15 to an apartment. They send that cash back to <insert dirthole> and then move back and live like kings."

I also stand by my ON TOPIC HYPERBOLE that you get sand in your vagina everytime someone disagrees with your sanctimonius stance of teh day. I love your defense/argument evertime someone disagrees with you as well as apparent multiple times in this thread. "OMGZ you knows so little!!".

[Hulkein]

If all the people who "talk" about the problem illegals are in this country actually put their wallet where their mouth is and did not give any business to companies and businesses that employ illegal workers those companies would quickly find other ways to do business.

You all however do not because you like your cheap prices.

Isn't that the same argument used by people who are saying to stop crying about outsourcing??????

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but I also don't bitch about outsourcing like it's the end of our country, like some people.

[Artha]

I love your defense/argument evertime someone disagrees with you as well as apparent multiple times in this thread. "OMGZ you knows so little!!".
It's much harder to argue with people if you have to accept them as intellectual equals.

[Skirmisher]

I also stand by my ON TOPIC HYPERBOLE that you get sand in your vagina everytime someone disagrees with your sanctimonius stance of teh day. I love your defense/argument evertime someone disagrees with you as well as apparent multiple times in this thread. "OMGZ you knows so little!!".

You do know very little about this and thats unfortunate.

You know much more than me in certain areas I'm sure, computers are one example and while I am sure there are others this is not one of them.

Illegals do NOT leap at the chance to come to the US for free medical care and in fact tend to avoid hospitals and other official or quasi official organizations as they do not wish to risk deportation. The reason for that varies. Some wish to stay and become legal residents and so pray to not ruin their chances by being found living here without a visa while others may in fact be intending to return to their country of origen but with something to show for the risk they took coming here and the time and work they put in while here.

Us say they live fifteen to a room? While situations similar to that may be true, does that sound glamorous to you? They work crap jobs with zero job security and knowing all the time that they might be ripped off by their employer. And as for the going home to live like kings comment, that I even need to address such a ridiculous statement is pathetic and says volumes about how much you know about conditions in Latin America.

The Church in this case is just saying that they will not turn away someone who is in need of help and who is already here because they are undocumented. They ae not going and picking them up at the border and bringing them into the us on rented greyhound buses or the like so the complaints about illegal aliens and all the horrible things the evil little brown people do is not really applicable anyway.

If you want to stop illegal aliens coming to the US en masse I gave you the single quickest and most effective way to stop it already, should you choose not to use that method and instead simply complain i'll not be surprised though.

And here's hoping that someday you might learn that all the omgz and exclamation points in the world, although it may impress the rubes, will not make your anemic argument any stronger and in fact only points out its inherent weakness all the more.

I

[peam]

Illegal imigration is America's cancer.

It needs to be curbed. People who wish admission to this country should go through due process, and when they do, I will welcome them with open arms.

[Skirmisher]

It's much harder to argue with people if you have to accept them as intellectual equals.

You are I hope joking.

He and his little lap dog Alfster toss trash and insults in probably far more than fifty percent of their posts and I am supposed to instead take every outlandish comment spewed forth and address it as a logical and well thought out argument or i'm the bad guy?

I do hope you are joking.

[Sean of the Thread]

You do know very little about this and thats unfortunate.





I'm sure the rest of your post may have been a decent one but I'll never know since I stopped at the above line.. refer to my previous posts in this thread for clarification.

[Skirmisher]

I'm sure the rest of your post may have been a decent one but I'll never know since I stopped at the above line.. refer to my previous posts in this thread for clarification.

Good comeback.

[Sean of the Thread]

You are I hope joking.

He and his little lap dog Alfster toss trash and insults in probably far more than fifty percent of their posts and I am supposed to instead take every outlandish comment spewed forth and address it as a logical and well thought out argument or i'm the bad guy?

I do hope you are joking.

Just because I throw jabs into my posts on any given subject does not make them "outlandish". What has become apparent to me is that you're a very narrow minded person and that anything you perceive as disagreement or "the other side" you now deem outlandish.

[Jorddyn]

It's much harder to argue with people if you have to accept them as intellectual equals.

...

Jorddyn

[Artha]

Okay JD.

[Sean of the Thread]

Good comeback.

I just went back and read your post to see if I missed anything that could be considered a rational thought or point. I did not. If you actually read all my posts they are quite accurate and cover everything you keep blabbing so redundantly.

Illegals can make enough in 1 year working here to allow them to live extremely comfortable for over 10 years back home. I've shot the shit and worked with many many of these people locally for years and those that can speak english have told me the this. Hospitals and clinics DO NOT TURN them away FOR ANY REASON. If they need emergency treatment.. they get it. There are latin doctors all over here that make "underground" housecalls for payment in.. get this.. cash. NONE of them "fear" deportation. Hell I've worked with Toys For Tots for 10 years and we welcome them in no problem.

I would say that the illegals in Florida have it pretty damned good during their stay here for the most part.

I'd could go on for quite awhile but discussing anything with you has become rather pointless.

I never bitched about the PROBLEM so you can stop directing all those arguments in my direction. All I said is that it IS A PROBLEM that needs to be addressed. Both for the country and for the illegals.

OH I R ALMOST FORGETTENZ!!!1!!1

[Skirmisher]

Just because I throw jabs into my posts on any given subject does not make them "outlandish". What has become apparent to me is that you're a very narrow minded person and that anything you perceive as disagreement or "the other side" you now deem outlandish.

The need to throw "jabs" into nearly every post does however make them superfluous and therefore reduce the import given to them with no one to blame but yourself.

Someone who is normally not taken to incredible levels of sarcasm and derisiveness will more likely get an inquisitive response from me when on the odd occasion they do make a comment in poor taste, but when someone makes a habit of it they also should be expected to be called on it when they spout junk.

You perplex me because when in the chat you can be much less antagonistic at times yet insist on being so here.