Iran, impending crisis

[Apotheosis]

Please discuss.

Is this the beginning of a series of events that will ultimately lead to nuclear warfare in the middle east, or is the head of Iran just posturing?

[Alfster]

IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD


















(as we know it)

[Latrinsorm]

All CNN's got:

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had been due to visit the southern city where bombs at a bank and government building killed six people Tuesday, his officials have said.

Um... I know the Middle East is a little touchy and all, but I don't really see how anything his Ahmadinejadness is up to will lead to nuclear war.

[Ebondale]

War, yes. Nuclear war? Doubtful.

Based on everything that has been made public thus far Iran does not possess the capability to produce a nuclear weapon and the U.N. will certainly not use nuclear arms against a country that doesn't have them. As it stands now it looks as though Israel has been preparing for a pre-emptive strike against Iran. I don't know what these preparations entail but I do know that Israel's F-16s do not have the range that would be necessary to fly missions to and from Iran without the use of a fuel tanker, which they do not have.

[Mistomeer]

War, yes. Nuclear war? Doubtful.
I don't know what these preparations entail but I do know that Israel's F-16s do not have the range that would be necessary to fly missions to and from Iran without the use of a fuel tanker, which they do not have.

Israel bombed the last nuclear reactor Iraq tried to build.

[Drew]

Israel will not let Iran have a nuclear bomb. If you do you can bet that thing is heading straight for Tel-Aviv. If they do find a way to use their planes to strike it, it will be interesting to see what route they take. They either have to fly over Saudi Arabia (very unlikely), Syria (less likely) or Jordan (most likely) to fly over Iraq to reach Iran. Since the US controls Iraq's defense now you can imagine they will immediately wire a firm condemnation to Israel because it will be a PR nightmare in Iraq if they let Israel fly a plane over the country but you can bet they will not shoot down the planes of one of our biggest allies. The US would love nothing more than for Israel to destroy Iran's nuclear capabilities but because of the political situation we have now we can't actually say that.


As far as the first country they have to fly over, all are technically hostile to Israel, Jordan being by far the most moderate though. I don't know if they will attempt to shoot down Israeli planes or not. Jordan's king is the most moderate leader in the Middle East and may turn a blind eye too it ("We had no radar signatures.").


The world, and especially the Middle East, is far better off with Iran being non-nuclear. We all know Israel can kick ass in conventional warfare. It's also the world's worst kept secret that Israel has nuclear arms. I believe that as soon as Iran has the bomb and a means to deliver it they will use it against Israel.


Tel-Aviv is the most likely target in my mind, it is nearly 100% Jewish, has no Muslim holy places like Jerusalem and is situated near the coast. If Iran fires a missile from Iran proper then it has to cross three countries and has a much greater chance of being shot down or missing its target. If they target Tel-Aviv they can load it on a boat and fire from 12 miles out in international waters or even closer. Transporting it by boat has its own flaws, but I think it's more likely. If Tel-Aviv gets nuked you could see upwards of 300k casualties depending on the yield of the bomb.


Were this to happen the world would enjoin Israel to not respond in kind, which is highly unlikely. I imagine they would strike immediately at Tehran, a city of near seven million. Since little is known about Israel's nuclear program it's hard to estimate the yield of bomb they possess but you can imagine it's at least past the fat man/little boy levels dropped on Japan. If they have the ability to strike with just the power of one US "Peacekeeper" ICBM you can expect a bomb two-hundred times as powerful as the bomb dropped on Hiroshima. Given a population of 7 million crammed in mostly substandard quality housing, you can imagine the kind of devastation this would wreak.

[xtc]

First off there is no firm evidence yet that Iran is making a nuclear bomb, they are developing nuclear technology for an energy program, however we all know they won't allow UN nuclear inspectors nor are they working with International Atomic Energy Association however Israel is guilty on both counts as well.

Iran doesn't need nuclear arms to cause serious damage to Israel; they have enough conventional weapons to do that. A nuclear Iran would be a deterrent to an America invasion which is what their citizens fear after the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. The population of Iran are unanimous in their support for a nuclear armed Iran, what they disagree about is who should control such weapons. Iranian support for nuclear arms is not support for a first strike but support for a deterrent against an American invasion or a first strike (as they see it).

Iran has learned from what happened to Iraq's nuclear program. Iran has spread its program out at numerous sites and contained the knowledge of where all those sites are. Their program is mobile which presents another challenge.

The US Army War College has published a report that Israeli jets can't reach Iran, even their newest long range jet is short by about 400 km. They don't have any aircraft carriers and the College said it was doubtful they would be able to use another nation's air bases in the area.

It doesn't look like there are any easy solutions. Maybe the world will have to live with another member in the nuclear club.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june06/iran_1-12.html

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2005/ss_israel_12_05.html

[Sean of the Thread]

First off there is no firm evidence yet that Iran is making a nuclear bomb, they are developing nuclear technology for an energy program, however we all know they won't allow UN nuclear inspectors nor are they working with International Atomic Energy Association however Israel is guilty on both counts as well.

Iran doesn't need nuclear arms to cause serious damage to Israel; they have enough conventional weapons to do that. A nuclear Iran would be a deterrent to an America invasion which is what their citizens fear after the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. The population of Iran are unanimous in their support for a nuclear armed Iran, what they disagree about is who should control such weapons. Iranian support for nuclear arms is not support for a first strike but support for a deterrent against an American invasion or a first strike (as they see it).

Iran has learned from what happened to Iraq's nuclear program. Iran has spread its program out at numerous sites and contained the knowledge of where all those sites are. Their program is mobile which presents another challenge.

The US Army War College has published a report that Israeli jets can't reach Iran, even their newest long range jet is short by about 400 km. They don't have any aircraft carriers and the College said it was doubtful they would be able to use another nation's air bases in the area.

It doesn't look like there are any easy solutions. Maybe the world will have to live with another member in the nuclear club.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june06/iran_1-12.html

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2005/ss_israel_12_05.html


I was going to make a well thought out and valid response to your ignorance by why bother.. anything I have to say won't matter. You flamers are going to take the liberals down the toilet and leave you zero cred much like PETA did with their extreme nonsense. Sensible people used to listen to their sensible arguments. Hardly the case anymore which is rapidly becoming the norm for politics thanks to the extreme libs.

You are so fucking stupid and so typical of every flaming liberal. I know quite a few liberals and dems that are actually coherent enough to sit down and discuss matters such as this and you are not one. Good reason not to even bother to discuss politcal matters here on teh pc so I'll thank you for that.

[Drew]

First off there is no firm evidence yet that Iran is making a nuclear bomb, they are developing nuclear technology for an energy program,




You think one of the world's richest oil producing nations needs more energy? Are you serious?

[Back]

From what I read, Iran is at least a decade away from making a nuclear bomb.

Is it really against the Koran to have one? Probably poltispeak. I dont trust anyone who has a religious explanation for their actions. Still...

Even if Iran had one now, and they sent it to Israel, its pretty obvious that it would fuck up a bunch of honest Palestinians as well.

I dont see it happening.

What I see happening right now is more fear mongering.

Slightly off topic... now Hammas is a democratically elected party. They've become legit. How does the rest of the democratic world react.

[Sean of the Thread]

If by "become legit" you mean a terrorist party has gained a legal position in govt then...??

I'm pretty certain Iran would not give a rats ass about any Palestinians caught in the crossfire of a shot at Israel.

[Back]

If by "become legit" you mean a terrorist party has gained a legal position in govt then...??

I'm pretty certain Iran would not give a rats ass about any Palestinians caught in the crossfire of a shot at Israel.

Seriously... dropping a nuke on a Delaware sized nation surrounded by the people who are against it is counter productive.

Drop it on Tel Aviv and you are going to have fallout from Lebanon to Egypt. Not to mention Jerusalem.

And you think IM an idiot? Take a look in the mirror.

[Ebondale]

All 'nuke dropping' aside, I don't see a happy diplomatic ending to this situation. Clearly Iran means to antagonize the rest of the world until someone makes the first move. As a founding nation of OPEC I have to wonder what the economic impact will be on the western world if a war kicks off in Iran.

[Sean of the Thread]

Seriously... dropping a nuke on a Delaware sized nation surrounded by the people who are against it is counter productive.

Drop it on Tel Aviv and you are going to have fallout from Lebanon to Egypt. Not to mention Jerusalem.

And you think IM an idiot? Take a look in the mirror.

Uhm I didn't call you an idiot (yes I had to double check) But seriously the wouldn't give a rats ass if it came down to their lil holy war imo. Not that it would ever come to that.. Israel will wtfpwn them way before it gets to that stage.

[Ebondale]

Back to what I had said in my previous post, I found this on drudgereport.com:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,1697136,00.html

------------
Iran crisis 'could drive oil over $90'
The oil producers' organisation Opec meets in Vienna on Tuesday amid calls from some members, including Iran, to cut back production and push up prices further. But most analysts believe production quotas will be left unchanged. 'There's no pressure on Opec to do anything,' said Rob Laughlin, oil analyst at Man Financial.

The president of Opec, Nigeria's Edmund Daukoru, fuelled market fears on Friday when he told Reuters that his organisation was unlikely to step in with extra supplies if the Iranian crisis worsened. 'If Iran decides to stop production, or is forced to stop production because of a sanction, I don't think Opec necessarily has a role to play there,' he said.

------------

The price of oil on Friday night was $67.76 per barrel. Pushing it up to $90 would certainly jack the price of gasoline up by a great deal. :(

[Fission]

Drop it on Tel Aviv and you are going to have fallout from Lebanon to Egypt. Not to mention Jerusalem.

Unless they go for an airburst, which would localize the destructive effects.

[Back]

Unless they go for an airburst, which would localize the destructive effects.

How localized can an airburst be? Like, what kind of radius effect? The West Bank is probably 20 miles or so east of Tel Aviv. Seems to me, if we are talking megaton nuke, the only place one would cause the least amount of surrounding damage/fallout would be the Negev.

[Warriorbird]

Why does it always seem like the members of OPEC are formed out of countries that hate us. Nigeria, woo hoo! They love them some Americans.

[Ebondale]

Why does it always seem like the members of OPEC are formed out of countries that hate us. Nigeria, woo hoo! They love them some Americans.

Cuz, uh... OPEC is formed out of countries that hate us. Thats why. ;)

[Fission]

How localized can an airburst be? Like, what kind of radius effect? The West Bank is probably 20 miles or so east of Tel Aviv. Seems to me, if we are talking megaton nuke, the only place one would cause the least amount of surrounding damage/fallout would be the Negev.

You can get much, much smaller than 1 megaton yield for a nuclear bomb. Tactical rounds like the old M454 and the XM753 weigh in at 2 kilotons or less. The XM753 Mod 1 carries a 0.8 kt neutron warhead, for example.

The radius of effects depends on a large number of variables, but here's some very rough examples for a 1kt tactical warhead detonated at low altitude:

1/4 mile - 50% fatalities (this is a rough estimate in itself, some within this radius would survive and others outside would die, but it's a pretty good approximation of initial casualties)
1/2 mile - most buildings collapse, those not killed will likely sustain severe injuries
3 1/2 miles - flash blindness if looking at the blast, unshielded
10 miles - retinal burns if looking at the blast, unshielded

So, assuming they don't care about the fallout, literal or political, tactical-level weapons could be deployed without the immediate effects extending past Israel's borders.

[Drew]

Why does it always seem like the members of OPEC are formed out of countries that hate us. Nigeria, woo hoo! They love them some Americans.



It's our fault anyway, we had the oil and we gave it back to them.

[xtc]

I was going to make a well thought out and valid response

That would have been a first for you


to your ignorance by why bother..

So far you have contributed zero to political posts, excluding Chuck Norris defecation rebuttals....you are the last person to accuse anyone of being ignorant.



anything I have to say won't matter.

Smartest thing you've ever said



You flamers are going to take the liberals down the toilet and leave you zero cred much like PETA did with their extreme nonsense.

I am not gay, assuming that is what you meant by flamer. I don't consider myself a liberal. My voting record on both sides of the 49th parallel has been rather conservative.



Sensible people used to listen to their sensible arguments. Hardly the case anymore which is rapidly becoming the norm for politics thanks to the extreme libs.

Radical liberals have eroded the credibility of the liberals in America like the filibustering of Judge Alito, just vote already. However radical conservatives have similarly eroded any credibility they may have had.


You are so fucking stupid and so typical of every flaming liberal. I know quite a few liberals and dems that are actually coherent enough to sit down and discuss matters such as this and you are not one. Good reason not to even bother to discuss politcal matters here on teh pc so I'll thank you for that.

You calling anyone stupid is rich, I would insult you further but I am not sure you'd be able to read it through the alcoholic haze. You have never attempted a discussion on any topic with me and to be honest, I can't remember you having much of a discussion with anyone else.

I think, you think I miss the obvious point, that Iran is seeking nuclear technology. That such an oil rich nation has no need of nuclear technology and that the current President has made comments that are very antagonistic and inflammatory. That he would like Israel removed from the Middle East and the people relocated to Europe. That he doesn't seem like an ideal candidate to have a nuclear weapon. That there is no going back once a nuclear bomb is launched. Yes I get it, I understand the severity of the situation. I didn't comment on it because I thought it was obvious. I am looking at the whole picture. People in the Middle East believe that only a nuclear bomb will prevent America from invading, they believe America has waged war against them and are interested in genocide. The current President of Iran believes the CIA stirred up rumours, that he was one of the hostage takers back in the 1979, and that the CIA only released that he wasn't a hostage taker after the election, in an effort to sway Iranian voters away from him. Israel has nuclear bombs and America helped Israel get them. They did this under the radar and without UN approval, so the Iranians ask themselves, if Israel can have nuclear weapons why not us?

The problem we have is that Iran has spread its nuclear program over multiple locations, so it isn't easy to knock out. If America attacks and fails to get the critical sites then what? What happens if we miss key areas? What happens if our intelligence is wrong like it was in Iraq? We have just pissed off the next nuclear nation. If Israel does the same thing then what? That region is already destabilized. Personally I think it would wise to pool intelligence with the Israelis and other friendly nations before an attack is launched. I think it would be wise to let another nation like France be the ones to launch the attacks. Despite the rhetoric to the contrary France has excellent armed forces. I don’t know if France has any aircraft carriers though, so there maybe a logistical problem.

[Fission]

First post in this thread asked if the President of Iran was just posturing.

Last year the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) published a report concerning Iran. Among other things, the agency noted that Iran had obtained documents detailing a process for casting "enriched, natural and depleted uranium metal into hemispherical forms." At the time, the IAEA refused to make a judgment on how such casts could be used.

Today, a good bit of time after allowing Iran to crack the seal on its reactors under the auspice of energy research, the IAEA issued another report, saying the documents were actually "related to the fabrication of nuclear weapon components."

Shame it took them this long to figure that out.

Add to that recently declassified information showing Iran's been conducting other phases of research, including missile trajectory plotting and optimal detonation condition calculations, and well, sure... it's obviously all quite peaceful and innocent, and for no other purpose besides research into electrical power generation.

[Ebondale]

Add to that recently declassified information showing Iran's been conducting other phases of research, including missile trajectory plotting and optimal detonation condition calculations, and well, sure... it's obviously all quite peaceful and innocent, and for no other purpose besides research into electrical power generation.

Obviously. I would never question the excellent and unwaveringly sane leadership in Iran. Their uranium enrichment is clearly for peaceful purposes. Their trajectory research probably so they can um... beam their excess amounts of newfound electricity to their neighbors so that they can bask in the glow of electrical power as well. Yeah.

[Gan]

In the words of the immortal Roger Waters: Pink Floyd: The Wall [Disk 1: Track 6]: Mother

"Mother do you think they'll drop the bomb" [?]

[Warriorbird]

Nah. They'll put it in a suitcase.

[xtc]

Nah. They'll put it in a suitcase.

Well thank God that is what every other nuclear nation has done with it, excluding us of course. I can't say I feel comfortable with this Iranian President having the bomb, but I think we have to ask ourselves why the Middle East is taking a massive turn right and abandoning the middle ground. My prediction is Israel will be the next nation to vote in a right wing President. I am sure if Xyelin was an Iranian he would have voted for their current President and would want Iran to have the bomb. An Iranian Xyelin now there is a thought.

[Warriorbird]

He'd be just as fat but he'd have a beard, I bet.

[Back]

Nah. They'll put it in a suitcase.

Currently there are several suitcase nukes missing from the former Soviet Union. If I remember correctly, they only have the radius of what Fission described. A small tactical nuke with a quarter mile devastation radius if detonated 100 feet off the ground.

[Warriorbird]

Think of what you could do with a wiped out quarter mile and the knowledge that it had been nuclear.

[Back]

Another note to the situation in the Middle East in general. Iran is still at least a decade away from actually making a nuke but has voted in a right-wing president who is obviously anti-Isreal/America. The Palestinians have elected Hammas as their ruling party. Hezbolah is now in power in Lebanon. The Syrians assassinated one of Lebanons most popular leaders. Pakistan is upset by recent US missile strikes in its territory. Osama and his crew are still on the loose.

I thought we were trying to stabalize the middle east. But since we invaded Iraq, look what has happened.

[Sean of the Thread]

I thought we were trying to stabalize the middle east. But since we invaded Iraq, look what has happened.

Things are going well. We LIBERATED Iraq from a ruthless tyrant AND we're making liberal cry babies cry.


Go find a tree to stick your dick in.

[Back]

Things are going well. We LIBERATED Iraq from a ruthless tyrant AND we're making liberal cry babies cry.


Go find a tree to stick your dick in.

Go find a tree and shove it up your ass. Oh shit, forgot. You already have one up there.

[Sean of the Thread]

Go find a tree and shove it up your ass. Oh shit, forgot. You already have one up there.


Your post is filed under "making liberal cry babies cry". See my prior post for reference.

[Back]

How about you go fuck yourself with your bullshit reference and get back to me when you have a coherent or rational thought on the situation in the Middle East or Iran.

[Fission]

Iran is still at least a decade away from actually making a nuke but has voted in a right-wing president who is obviously anti-Isreal/America.

Of course, this is hardly the first Iranian leader with anti-American or anti-Israeli sentiments.

And if they work at it, they won't need anything even close to a decade to produce a nuke. All you need is a sufficient mass of fissionable material, and the rest is just gravy, relatively speaking. Since their reactors are humming away producing enriched uranium now, they're going to have that most critical component if they want it.

Also, as far as things go, some of the situations given aren't just cause and effect from the war in Iraq, especially things like Iran's leader being anti-American. Hell, I doubt anyone would consider Jimmy Carter a warmonger, and we had the hostage crisis with Iran back when he was in office as well.

[Drew]

Hah, in fact the President of Iran was, most likely, one of the hostage takers.

[Sean of the Thread]

How about you go fuck yourself with your bullshit reference and get back to me when you have a coherent or rational thought on the situation in the Middle East or Iran.


Are you insinuating that any of your "thoughts" on the matter are rational?

[Warriorbird]

"Things are going well. We LIBERATED Iraq from a ruthless tyrant AND we're making liberal cry babies cry. "

And they're so excited and happy that they want us to get the fuck out.

:snickers:

[Sean of the Thread]

Well since it has become obvious to me that there are an increasing number of liberals who pander and feel sorry for the terrorist and tyrants in this world.. I figured "HEY? Why not be a good infidel capatilist and make some dead presidents (excuse the pun) off this." I came up with a t-shirt idea... lemme know what ya think.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Japgross/final.jpg


You call it "alcoholic haze" I call it creative juice! Hey after all the "Old Man And The Sea" wasn't written on merely a fifth of creative juice!.


(P.s. Please excuse my art skillz as I've made clear plenty of times in the past that I have none..I am a conservative after all.)

[Warriorbird]

The parallels to the religious right are real easy to draw. Quite literally. The religious right that would condemn most every single thing you do for fun, Xyelin, yet you still vote for.

[xtc]

Things are going well. We LIBERATED Iraq from a ruthless tyrant AND we're making liberal cry babies cry.


Go find a tree to stick your dick in.

lol sometimes I wonder if you believe the tripe you post here.

Flagging morale among coalition forces as Iraq war drags on.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1566485.htm

[xtc]

Well since it has become obvious to me that there are an increasing number of liberals who pander and feel sorry for the terrorist and tyrants in this world.. I figured "HEY? Why not be a good infidel capatilist and make some dead presidents (excuse the pun) off this." I came up with a t-shirt idea... lemme know what ya think.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Japgross/final.jpg


You call it "alcoholic haze" I call it creative juice! Hey after all the "Old Man And The Sea" wasn't written on merely a fifth of creative juice!.


(P.s. Please excuse my art skillz as I've made clear plenty of times in the past that I have none..I am a conservative after all.)

I am sure your T-Shirt will be a big hit in Tehran feel free to take it there.

Hemingway's creative juice ruined his life and for every Hemingway there are a million bums eating out of dumpsters, living in cardboard boxes, scratching their lice and crabs all day.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm quite sure the t-shirt would be just as popular in many many other places as well.. including the US and CAN.

And as far as digging in the garbage for food.. there is a special tonite on the news about tree huggers and seal fuckers doing it to save the planet and teach all of us other capitalistic pigs a lesson! Titled "Garbage Gourmet"

http://wrightwing.net/2005/11/26/13/52/150

So I think there are more than "a million (liberal) bums" eating out of dumpsters than you admit.

[xtc]

I'm quite sure the t-shirt would be just as popular in many many other places as well.. including the US and CAN.

And as far as digging in the garbage for food.. there is a special tonite on the news about tree huggers and seal fuckers doing it to save the planet and teach all of us other capitalistic pigs a lesson! Titled "Garbage Gourmet"

http://wrightwing.net/2005/11/26/13/52/150

So I think there are more than "a million (liberal) bums" eating out of dumpsters than you admit.

I doubt the t-shirt would be a hit in Canada however I am sure the residents of many southern states would take to it.

I wasn't referring to conservatives or Republicans when I made my dumpster comment simply alcoholics of all stripes.

[Sean of the Thread]

AP Top News
Suicide Bombers Warn U.S., U.K. of Attacks


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By NASSER KARIMI
Associated Press Writer

February 19, 2006, 4:23 AM EST

TEHRAN, Iran -- An Iranian group that claims its members are dedicated to becoming suicide bombers warned the United States and Britain on Saturday that they will strike coalition military bases in Iraq if Tehran's nuclear facilities are attacked.

Mohammad Ali Samadi, spokesman for Esteshadion, or Martyrdom Seekers, boasted of having hundreds of potential bombers in his talk at a seminar on suicide-bombings tactics at Tehran's Khajeh Nasir University.

"With more than 1,000 trained martyrdom-seekers, we are ready to attack the American and British sensitive points if they attack Iran's nuclear facilities," Samadi said.

"If they strike, we have a lot of volunteers. Their (U.S. and British) sensitive places are quiet close to Iranian borders," Samadi said.

Samadi reviewed the history of suicide bombing as a weapon, praising it as the most effective Palestinian tactic in their confrontation with Israel.

The organizers showed video clips of suicide attacks against Israelis, including one in the Morag settlement near Rafah in Gaza strip in February 2005. One settler, three Israeli soldiers and the two attackers were killed in the attack.

Hasan Abbasi, a university instructor and former member of the elite Revolutionary Guards, told the audience of about 200 that Iran was not seeking nuclear weapons as claimed by the United States and some of its allies.

"Our martyrdom-seekers are our nuclear weapons," said Abbasi, the event's main speaker.

After his speech, about 50 students filled out membership applications.

"This is a unique opportunity for me to die for God, next to my brothers in Palestine. That was why I signed up," said Reza Haghshenas, a 22-year-old electrical engineering student.

A 23-year-old woman student, Maryam Amereh, said: "We are trying to defend Islam. It's a way to draw the attention of others to our activities."

But Rahim Hasanlu, a 22-year-old industrial management student, declared himself not interested in joining.

"I just attended to learn what they're saying, thats all."

Esteshadion was formed in late 2004, calling for members on a sporadic basis at Friday prayer ceremonies, state-sponsored rallies and at the group's occasional meetings.

[Alfster]

I'd buy the shirt just to piss people off.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'd buy the shirt just to piss people off.


Should I sell it with a fake dirty allah warrior beard?

[xtc]

I'd buy the shirt just to piss people off.

My guess is you wouldn't wear it for long.

[Sean of the Thread]

My guess is you wouldn't wear it for long.


Well you should get at least 2 years of wear out of it since around that time Iran will be tactical glass sculptures.

[xtc]

Well you should get at least 2 years of wear out of it since around that time Iran will be tactical glass sculptures.

lol, I think you'd be lucky to wear it for 2 days.

[Sean of the Thread]

lol, I think you'd be lucky to wear it for 2 days.

Maybe on the streets of Toronto.. here we're allowed to express ourselves wearing t-shirts (except at a formal state of the union).

[xtc]

Maybe on the streets of Toronto.. here we're allowed to express ourselves wearing t-shirts (except at a formal state of the union).

Canada has freedom of expression as well, however America has many Muslims in it. It would be the same as wearing a KKK shirt in Harlem, I wouldn't expect the shirt or the wearer to last long.

[Sean of the Thread]

Canada has freedom of expression as well, however America has many Muslims in it. It would be the same as wearing a KKK shirt in Harlem, I wouldn't expect the shirt or the wearer to last long.


What are you trying to say about Harlem? That the residents there don't have common sense or respect for free speech or this great nation's constitution of which they live in?

And as I've stated in the police thread.. my experience with Canada and it's "freedom of expression" has been scary.

[xtc]

What are you trying to say about Harlem? That the residents there don't have common sense or respect for free speech or this great nation's constitution of which they live in?

And as I've stated in the police thread.. my experience with Canada and it's "freedom of expression" has been scary.


Do you really believe that you could walk in Harlem with a KKK shirt and not get harmed? I think the person who would lacking common sense would be the guy with the KKK shirt. Similarly anyone who wore a Death to America shirt at the remains of the World Trade Towers. I don't think people would be referring to the Constitution.

I don't think your experience of Toronto is typical. You could probably come here and spout your Pro Bush opinions without fear to your safety. You may have some spirited verbal opposition however.

[Sean of the Thread]

Do you really believe that you could walk in Harlem with a KKK shirt and not get harmed? I think the person who would lacking common sense would be the guy with the KKK shirt. Similarly anyone who wore a Death to America shirt at the remains of the World Trade Towers. I don't think people would be referring to the Constitution.

I don't think your experience of Toronto is typical. You could probably come here and spout your Pro Bush opinions without fear to your safety. You may have some spirited verbal opposition however.


Like I said before I grew up in New York and spent alot of time in Canada so my experiences are more than "typical". (I've also banged quite a few Canadian sluts.. they are known for being rather slutty. That much is typical)

You skirted the question about your opinion or should I say your ignorant and stereotypical statement about Harlem. (because you're a back tracking pussy?)

[xtc]

Like I said before I grew up in New York and spent alot of time in Canada so my experiences are more than "typical". (I've also banged quite a few Canadian sluts.. they are known for being rather slutty. That much is typical)

You skirted the question about your opinion or should I say your ignorant and stereotypical statement about Harlem. (because you're a back tracking pussy?)

Where are these Canadian sluts because I have been searching and found few? When I was young, Buffalo was the place to find sluts. I have lived here on and off for years and never had a problem speaking my mind, you will find Free Speech is enshrined in the Canadian Constitution.

I didn't back track at all. Harlem has a large African American population who I am sure support free speech but I am betting some of the residents wouldn't take kindly to a white man wearing a KKK shirt.

[Artha]

you will Free Speech is enshrined in the Canadian Constitution.
Aren't there 'hate speech' laws up in the Great White North?

[xtc]

Canada has hate crime laws which will arrest someone for commiting an act of violence based on race/religion/sexuality. You can also be arrested for inciting hatred against any identifiable group. The reality is they don't arrest anyone unless there has been an incitement to riot or to cause bodily harm which is the same as the United States.

From the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

"freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication"

I think if they ever try and arrest anyone for expressing an opinion a Charter argument will be brought and the hate crime law will be struck down as being unconstitutional.

[Sean of the Thread]

Canada has hate crime laws which will arrest someone for commiting an act of violence based on race/religion/sexuality. You can also be arrested for inciting hatred against any identifiable group. The reality is they don't arrest anyone unless there has been an incitement to riot or to cause bodily harm which is the same as the United States.

From the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

"freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication"

I think if they ever try and arrest anyone for expressing an opinion a Charter argument will be brought and the hate crime law will be struck down as being unconstitutional.

Wrong. I've seen someone taken to jail for calling someone else at a football game a nigger. What happened at court I don't know but he was in fact arrested on the spot.

[xtc]

Wrong. I've seen someone taken to jail for calling someone else at a football game a nigger. What happened at court I don't know but he was in fact arrested on the spot.

I am assuming this football game was in Canada? I can't imagine anyone would travel to Canada to watch football.

[Sean of the Thread]

I am assuming this football game was in Canada? I can't imagine anyone would travel to Canada to watch football.

Nope.. here in the states.

>>The reality is they don't arrest anyone unless there has been an incitement to riot or to cause bodily harm which is the same as the United States.<<

[xtc]

Nope.. here in the states.

>>The reality is they don't arrest anyone unless there has been an incitement to riot or to cause bodily harm which is the same as the United States.<<

To the best of my knowledge the United States doesn't have Hate Speech laws. Defamation, incitement to riot, and hate crime laws but no Hate Speech laws. I am guessing they didn't even bother processing the guy, probably tossed him to the curb when they exited the stadium.

[Sean of the Thread]

To the best of my knowledge the United States doesn't have Hate Speech laws. Defamation, incitement to riot, and hate crime laws but no Hate Speech laws. I am guessing they didn't even bother processing the guy, probably tossed him to the curb when they exited the stadium.

I doubt it.. security guards kick people out of stadiums.. when the police come you're going to jail.

[xtc]

I doubt it.. security guards kick people out of stadiums.. when the police come you're going to jail.

Not always, they would need a crime to charge him with, what do they have? Maybe public disturbance, public intoxication?

[Sean of the Thread]

Fucking idiots.
An Iranian student has been charged with attempting to murder nine people with a car in the US.

Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar, 22, drove a rented Jeep into a crowd at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill on Friday, police said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4775544.stm

[Latrinsorm]

To be more accurate, idiot, singular.
Muslim students staged a sit-in protest at the newspaper offices. ^ more important, especially to the "MUSLIMS ARE CRAZEE" crowd ^

[Warriorbird]

The US can certainly arrest people for causing a public disturbance, Xyelin.

[Sean of the Thread]

To be more accurate, idiot, singular.^ more important, especially to the "MUSLIMS ARE CRAZEE" crowd ^


I meant the idiot students for not being able to dodge a suicide jeep. They were prolly liberal stoner students so their reaction time was pwnt.

[Alfster]

No, you've got it all wrong.

It's the manufacturer of the Jeep that is to blame.

[Artha]

I think it's society itself that is to blame. We should all take a good, hard look at ourselves in an attempt to see what is causing people to not be able to dodge a suicide jeep.

[Ebondale]

I bet that fucker didn't even have a lift kit on his jeep. How un-American is that?