Political Attrocities List (Bush Administration)...

[nocturnix]

Political Attrocities List
The Bush Administration

Ok, after seeing the great wealth of responses and information posted in the patriot act thread I decided to go ahead with something I've been wanting to compile for some time now.

With these crazy fucked up times its hard to keep track of everything going on. In my opinion, I think this has actually evolved into a working strategy for the Administration...you do one screwed up thing, you can always refocus the spotlight on something else to make the people forget.

That being said I want to compile a list of EVERYTHING you can think of the Bush Administration has done poorly, in bad taste, fringed upon our rights, lied, stolen, power plays, etc. etc.

Realistically based on the things ive read over the past 5 years without going into TOO much detail this list should be many, many pages in length.

I'll start it off with some of the things posted in the Patriot act thread, and a few additions of my own...

Speculation and theory are ok to, we can always split the list into fact and theory later.

---------------------------------------------





Originally posted by Necromancer
1. Let's also not forget that Bush showed us, during his State of the Union Address, pictures of what he claimed were WMD facilities in Iraq. It later turned out that there was no evidence at all that they were used as such.

2. He also used the "evidence" regarding the purchase of illegal components for WMDs from Nigeria. That evidence, incidently, had been declared completely fabricated by the UN months prior. The reasoning being that not only did the signature on the official documents not match the actual official that would have had to sign the documents, but they got the name of that official completely wrong (t was clearly from long outdated information). Some of the worst "evidence" possible. Bush had been told not to use that evidence, that it was clearly incorrect. He used it in his speech anyway.

3. Then you move beyond the war, and a whole new can of worms opens up. We come to find out that Bush has authorized wiretaps on US citizens without warrants (which is allowable in some instances as long as those people are notified within 72 hours), and then looks us all straight in the face and tell us he broke no laws. A flat out lie of course; as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act clearly states that warrants must be obtained first unless in exceptional circumstances, and then the 72 hour notification kicks in. As far as we know, the NSA never actually gave notification to anyone.

4. Bush also told us that there were, in fact, no secret CIA prisons for years. It is only in the most recent exposure of those prisons (if people aren't aware, groups like Human Rights Watch have been reporting on these prisons for two or three years now, no one listened until now) that has brought any acknowledgement of these sites, and the administration STILL refuses to openly say they exist. This is a lie to the American public that has been going on for years.

5. The administration claims that no torture is ever ordered for use on people in US custody. Then they fought long and hard to try to stop a torture ban. They first fought all of it, then they tried to exempt CIA officials and to grant legal immunity to any individual who can claim they were ordered to torture. Our Attorney General told us all with a straight face that no one is ever tortured, and then we find out that we use a method of torture designed to make detainees believe they are being drown (this involves hours of being submerged into water almost until the point of passing out), freezing people, slapping people and shaking them, and putting them through sleep deprivation (which, incidently, is legally a form of torture). We know at least one person had died from these techniques. The administration lied to us yet again.

6. The administration, Bush in particular, has claimed that they have acted only in accordance with the law. But we found out that they've been holding US citizens for years without bringing charges against them; which is a clear violation of Due Process rights. The administration lied.

[Edited on 12-18-2005 by Necromancer]


7. The Patriot Act...passing a law that affects our civil liberties in ANY way overnight is a political roundhouse kick to the american people. You can argue all you like how it was needed at the time to "prevent terrorism" but as we've seen now the power granted has only been abused, and as far as we know has done little to help us in the prevention of potential terrorist attacks.

On top of that, as if it werent even more of a clue that the administration wants to diminish our rights, and in my opinion prevent any sort of social uprising(it allows the administration to spy on any group of any kind, and if they so feel like it all they have to do is call that group a terrorist organization then they can throw them all, or the leader, in jail..hense making it alot more difficult for any kind of movements against the administration). /tangent Anyhow, they have fought hard to renew this horrible law and with even more fringes against our liberties. Id love to see those yeehaw Bush supporters say with a straight face they appreciate losing freedoms, even if there is no evidence of it helping in the fight against "terrorism".

8. THE GROSS and horrendous manipulation of the American people via numerous media outlets. Fox News is the number one news source and has been PROVEN numerous times via studies, memos, and, well just watching it, to be extremely right winged. The news they and many other major news channels report are tied directly to White House agendas. To realize this all you have to do is find other news sources(on the internet) that report with less bias and you will see that almost ALL of our news channels will skim over important political news items in order to keep the people from realizing things that are happening. Ive watched C-Span for hours and seen CRAZY shit go down in the senate that I never even heard about on the news.

This, in my opinion is the greatest attrocity of all, and I truly believe we dont even realize how deep the rabbit hole truly is.

9. In an effort to keep control of the masses the Bush Administration has been lobbying and trying very hard to cut funding if not completely dismantle free and unbiased news sources. For example, when the budget started to look bad after things got expensive with the war what were the first places the administration looked to cut? NPR, PBS, and CPB...our last vestiges of free speech and free press. Well thank god, they reversed some of the cuts made due to people getting pissed, and any further budget cuts were put on hold. But guess what? They didnt stop there...

The Administration then decided, well if you cant beat em, join em! So they did what they are best at, and had their puppet, mr. G-dubbyah elect one of their loyal cronies, Patricia Harrison - a co-chair of the Republican National Committee who recently worked in the Bush Administration on international propoganda, as PRESIDENT of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Welp, their goes our last media outlet...lost to the Republican Agenda. Not only that, but does it not scare the shit out of anyone else that - if the PRESIDENT of the CPB, which is supposed to be PUBLIC broadcasting and completely free of any governmental regulation, or agenda pushing, worked on INTERNATIONAL FUCKING PROPOGANDA for the B. Administration? If thats who's running CPB, I dont even want to know the people pulling the strings for companys like fox news, cnn, nbc, etc.

10. Attempt in to pass in the senate a ban/law against filibustering. For those of you who dont know, filibustering is something done in the senate that basically slows the process down and allows the senators to work through a law and debate it instead of it getting swept through overnight like the Patriot Act. This is a great way for the administration to gain more power to create laws they want, when they want, as quickly as they want, and with the least amount of opposition.

11. Reversing of alot of progress that has been made over NUMEROUS presidencies with regards to enviromentalism. Fuck the environmnet, that cuts into profits of major corporations, the guys who got me in here and the guys who bankroll me.

12. Issues with the first election. Bush technicaly was not elected president for his first term. However, lucky for him, his brother was governer of Florida the last swing state. His brother announced to the media that Bush had one before all the ballots had been counted and a true conclusion could be made, then the information was picked up by Fox News(the furthest right wing, bush supporting news channel of all) and then all other news sources followed Fox's lead minutes afterwards. After the ball was rolling nothing could stop it, and Bush was swept into the white house. I'd also like to point out that some 30,000 people were waiting to recieve Bush on the traditional "walk to the whitehouse" after his innoguration. The crowd was SO PISSED he had to flee into the whitehouse via secured transport instead of actually walking like every president to do so before him. He was the first president to actually flee into the whitehouse hiding from his own people.

13. Destroying relations with the U.N. This is a very broad topic, and there are numerous things that Bush has done over the years to lessen our standing with the U.N. However as most of you know the biggest one is ignoring the U.N.'s advice of waiting to invade Iraq. This is a bigger deal than most of us realize, and although I feel our relations will be repaired(hopefully) by the next president, it will take some work.

14. Generally diminishing world opinion of America. Another broad sweeping topic, but after all is said and done, Bush has pissed the rest of the world off with his actions. And for those of you who dont realize it, this is the opposite of lessening terrorist threats. If anything, he has increased the threat of terrorism.

So go nuts, add to the list!

I'll add more later as I have more time. Heres looking at you Necromancer as you seem to have a vast amount of knowledge on these topics too!

[CrystalTears]

One minute the U.N. is corrupt and all around bad. The next we should be following them to the letter. Make up your minds, people.

I have issues with how the administration is handling the border/immigration problem, or should I say not handling.

You should do this for past presidents as well. I'm sure we can find lots of dirty skeletons in many closets. No administration is perfect.

[nocturnix]

As the topic says, this is a list for the Bush Administration.

That being said, CrystalTears what are the issues on how Bush handles immigration? So that I may add this entry to my list.

[Back]

Actively dividing the American people by villainizing critics instead of seeking compromises and cooperation for a united front.

[nocturnix]

Originally posted by Backlash
Actively dividing the American people by villainizing critics instead of seeking compromises and cooperation for a united front.

Good one, thanks Backlash...will add new entries when I get time...keep em comin.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by nocturnix
NPR, PBS, and CPB...our last vestiges of free speech and free press.When you're posting on an INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD, how can you type this without your head just exploding?
Bush technicaly was not elected president for his first term.I guess that would be why.

I'm honor-bound to inform you that what you're doing is similar to (but not of the same magnitude as) referring to Bush as Hitler. Any legitimate complaints you may have had are completely lost by the utter ridiculousness of your most brazen statements.

[Back]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by nocturnix
NPR, PBS, and CPB...our last vestiges of free speech and free press.When you're posting on an INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD, how can you type this without your head just exploding?
Bush technicaly was not elected president for his first term.I guess that would be why.

I'm honor-bound to inform you that what you're doing is similar to (but not of the same magnitude as) referring to Bush as Hitler. Any legitimate complaints you may have had are completely lost by the utter ridiculousness of your most brazen statements.

You brought it up first, Latrin. Everyone knows the first person in any thread to reference Hitler or nazis immediately loses.

[Edited on 12-22-2005 by Backlash]

[nocturnix]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
When you're posting on an INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD, how can you type this without your head just exploding?

Well being as thats not very clear, I assume you mean that internet message boards are a remaining form of free speech. I agree they are, and I'm very thankful for them. Unfortunately an infinitely small amount of Americans use and or read them. TV is how Americans get their information, and sometimes radio, and sometimes newspapers...MOST of these media outlets have been comprimised in some way.



I'm honor-bound to inform you that what you're doing is similar to (but not of the same magnitude as) referring to Bush as Hitler. Any legitimate complaints you may have had are completely lost by the utter ridiculousness of your most brazen statements.

- Comment removed to keep thread on topic.

[Edited on 12-22-2005 by nocturnix]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Backlash
Everyone knows the first person in any thread to reference Hitler or nazis immediately loses. Godwin's Law states that the first person to compare their *opponents* to Hitler/Nazis automatically loses the argument.
Originally posted by nocturnix
MOST of these media outlets have been comprimised in some way.I encourage you to take a gander at the study Hulkein recently posted.

It takes a lot of balls to say you won't stoop to an alleged level and within an hour say something like "Are we heading down that road though, in my opinion, yes." But I'm probably just not "educated", right?

[CrystalTears]

But I'm probably just not "educated", right?

Damn union people. :P


Is bush hitler? No. Are we heading down that road though, in my opinion, yes.

:lol: What could have been a possibly interesting thread has just gone down hill, dove head-first into the ocean and drowned because of that last line. Good luck.

[Edited on 12/22/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Gan]

Originally posted by nocturnix
Is bush hitler? No. Are we heading down that road though, in my opinion, yes.

That is going in my quote line.

:clap:

[Fission]

Funny you mention that, as anyone who is educated and has a reasonable understanding of power, propoganda, and subversion would agree that we are heading in the direction of a Nazi like regime, and we almost as blind as the germans were during Hitler's reign.

Sweeping generalizations like this are flawed at best, and do little but undermine what might be an otherwise valid argument. The implication that anyone that doesn't agree with your opinion is uneducated and/or unreasonable doesn't help matters either.

[nocturnix]

Removed the comment only because it was off topic, however I will remain firm that it is my opinion with response to what Latrine said.

[Gan]

Originally posted by nocturnix
Removed the comment only because it was off topic, however I will remain firm that it is my opinion with response to what Latrine said.


If its how you feel, be a man and leave it up.

[nocturnix]

Originally posted by Ganalon

Originally posted by nocturnix
Removed the comment only because it was off topic, however I will remain firm that it is my opinion with response to what Latrine said.


If its how you feel, be a man and leave it up.

No Latrine is right, I caved and resorted to personal attacks...which for me, happens eventually as I lose patience, I just wanted to try for my own reasons to hold off for at least a few posts lol.

That being said, glad all you Bush Supporters decided to stop by and contribute your disagreements with my thread. It's entertaining, but I am really interested in developing a list and not arguing with you wether or not we really need civil liberties, freedoms, and free press.

As tempting as it is, and I do realize there will be some of that...lets save it for another thread if at all possible. ::pokes::

[Fission]

PS - As far as the on the road to Hitler, the last President that established concentration camps on U.S. soil was a Democrat. Republicans in turn repealed the executive order that spurred formation of said camps and arranged for reparations to be paid to those interred.

But hey, Republicans are so obviously teh eval, so keep spinning away there.

[Back]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Backlash
Everyone knows the first person in any thread to reference Hitler or nazis immediately loses. Godwin's Law states that the first person to compare their *opponents* to Hitler/Nazis automatically loses the argument.

Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
(Redirected from Godwin's law)

Godwin's Law (also Godwin's Rule of Nazi analogies) is an adage in Internet culture that was originated by Mike Godwin in 1990.

The law states that:
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

Although the law does not specifically mention it, there is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.

It is considered poor form to arbitrarily raise such a comparison with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such deliberate invocation of Godwin's Law will be unsuccessful.

[Edited on 12-22-2005 by Backlash]

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by nocturnix
Lots of rhetoric

:soapbox:

[Daniel]

Unfortunately an infinitely small amount of Americans use and or read them.

^

You must be on crack.

[Necromancer]

Back to the original intent of the post...

1. Bush ran as a moderate and told us all that he did not oppose abortion. Immediately after entering the White House, he swiftly reversed himself and came out strongly against it. He has been pushing in anti-choice candidates into the judiciary since. Incidently, the World Health Organization has officially called outlawed abortion a world health crisis due to the number of lives that are lost in countries with such policies. Bush also enacted the Global Gag Rule, which makes it illegal to fund any health organization abroad that dares to so much as carry information on where to get an abortion. Meaning health clinics that want USAID funding or any international funding given out by the US are not allowed to have a pamphlet discussion abortion or providing lists of establishments that provide abortions, even if the US money didn't go into creating those resources.

2. Bush's very first executive order in the war on Iraq was to privatize the oil there. He went in and immediately took over their natural resources, distributing them to US-based companies, and, consequently, distributing the profits back to the US. This is the very definition of imperialism, and it has never been morally acceptable.

3. Bush has come out strongly opposed to legislation that would prohibit employment discrimination against people based on their actual or perceived sexual orientation. Apparenlty equality is not one of his strong points. Bush also came out, as a government official, and called gays and lesbians "sinners".

4. Bush put a man to whom he owed political favors into the top position at FEMA, a key incompetence that cost many lives.

5. Bush refused to sign the Rome Statute treaty that created the International Criminal Court. However, despite this, he had the US illegally amend the treaty to give exemptions to peace workers (the only US citizens that would have been able to fall under the Court's jurisdiction). Peace workers have been responsible for some of the most horrendous human rights abuses enacted by UN Personel.

6. Bush refused to sign the Kyoto Conference Treaty, making us the only industrialized nation in the world not to sign and weakening it significantly. This will cost many lives as pollution is rapidly growing into a major global health crisis.

7. Bush placed a man who had opposed voluntary desegregation and who wrote a book arguing that slavery strengthened the black family at the head of the judicial branch.

8. The Bush administration came out and claimed that Iraq had been training Al-Qaeda members in weapons use. The information came from an informant who had purportedly carried out some of the trainings. It was later discovered that Bush had been repeatedly told (verified through the declassification of internal memos) that this information was not reliable, and later a retired FBI officer who had been involved in the "interrogation" was quoted as saying that they had been repeatedly told to find a link between Iraq and Al-Qaeda, and that the man eventually confessed to a link after they beat the answer out of him.

9. Bush's regime is currently the only industrialized western regime to refuse to ban torture and to actually endorse its use.

10. Bush significantly cut funding for any AIDS-related prevention programs and research that specifically targetted LGBT people. As it stands, these programs can receive absolutely no funding unless they're getting it for alternative programs housed in the same organization or clinic. LGBT people continue to be a disproportionately large percentage of new HIV infection cases. The administration would rather see them die, apparently.

11. President Bush actually received fewer votes in the first election in Florida than Al Gore. But, not being a man of principle, he refused to give Gore the position even after the recount verified that Bush had indeed lost.

12. Under Bush's new reorganization of the FBI and the creation of his local domestic terrorism units, it has been discovered that progressive organizations has been under surveillance simply for having opinions contrary to that of the administration. Specifically, a few declassified documents have proven that the FBI has been trying to establish connections between organizations like the ACLU and PETA with militant organizations to whom they actually have no connections. Some of the documents clearly labeled PETA as a domestic terrorist organization, which gives them greatly enhanced surveillance rights, though the organization has broken no laws at all.

13. Bush has made it a policy to hold US citizens and international citizens without charges, a blatant violation of the constitutional right to Due Process. Our very own citizens have been put in prisons for years at a time without access to a lawyer, court system, or formal charges. Many have claimed torture and disparaging treatment during their time. Many are still in custody. Bush had supported this policy repeatedly all the while assuring us that he is protecting civil liberties.

14. Bush actually said to the President of Mexico, "I am fluent in Mexican"

15. Bush pulled us out of the anti-ballistic missile treaty, which was heralded as necessary to preserve peace in many areas, and, consequently, lives. The consequence was China building up on warheads, just as feared. Incidently, Bush withdrew without a vote from Congress. Only Congress has the ability to enter into, or to leave, treaties with other nations. This should have been our first indication that Bush had no respect for the separation of powers.

16. The Downing street memo makes it clear that Bush had already decided to invade Iraq at least 8 months before the actual invasion. At that time he had been telling us all that he did not want to go to war. The invasion of Iraq was 100% illegal. One can only go to war under one of the following circumstances: you must have been attacked by said country, said country must be committing genocide, or the UN security council must approve it.

There're 16 for now. I'll get you more later.

[nocturnix]

Thanks Necro, will add these to the list as soon as things slow down here at work.

[Artha]

Speculation and theory are ok to, we can always split the list into fact and theory later.
lol.

[Hulkein]

<< 11. President Bush actually received fewer votes in the first election in Florida than Al Gore. But, not being a man of principle, he refused to give Gore the position even after the recount verified that Bush had indeed lost. >>

Uh, recounts showed Bush won Florida.

Half your list isn't anything more than speculation, too.

[Fission]

Half your list isn't anything more than speculation, too.

But, but, if it's against Bush, it HAS to be true! Plus I read it on the intarweb!!1!

:rolleyes:

[Gan]

:popcorn:

[TheRoseLady]

Just a friendly reminder Nocturnix. I'm sure you've seen the usual suspects who will arrive in a valid thread, throw out a few "prove it" taunts and then manage to get the entire thread derailed. It then goes into rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

In fact, many of them have already arrived....some folks are best ignored as nothing you say will ever convince them that Bush is anything but "the man".

In my own humble opinion, the biggest issue that we have is the dividing of the American people and the basic feeling of mistrust for the administration. I realize that the staunch supporters will throw out the "yeah but so and so did this or that..." That's fine, but at least give some concrete examples to back that up and you'll have my attention.

[nocturnix]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Just a friendly reminder Nocturnix. I'm sure you've seen the usual suspects who will arrive in a valid thread, throw out a few "prove it" taunts and then manage to get the entire thread derailed. It then goes into rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

In fact, many of them have already arrived....some folks are best ignored as nothing you say will ever convince them that Bush is anything but "the man".

In my own humble opinion, the biggest issue that we have is the dividing of the American people and the basic feeling of mistrust for the administration. I realize that the staunch supporters will throw out the "yeah but so and so did this or that..." That's fine, but at least give some concrete examples to back that up and you'll have my attention.

Thankyou TheRoseLady. I will note your suggestion when updating the list.

I'm very tempted to create a website for this, just for shits and giggles so people can view an ongoing list, vote on the issues they find the most grevious, add their own experiences etc.

Anyways, you are very right and I appreciate the advice...will ignore said comments from now on.

[Hulkein]

Yes, ignore said comments and bask in your dream world where speculation is cold hard fact, and cold hard fact that you don't like doesn't exist.

:thumbsup:

[Back]

Missing TRL in these threads. :(

Her life is probably less stressful though. Can’t blame anyone for that.

[nocturnix]

Originally posted by Backlash
Missing TRL in these threads. :(

Her life is probably less stressful though. Can’t blame anyone for that.

Sorry, as an aside...who's TRL?

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by nocturnix

Originally posted by Backlash
Missing TRL in these threads. :(

Her life is probably less stressful though. Can’t blame anyone for that.

Sorry, as an aside...who's TRL?

:raises her hand:

[nocturnix]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by nocturnix

Originally posted by Backlash
Missing TRL in these threads. :(

Her life is probably less stressful though. Can’t blame anyone for that.

Sorry, as an aside...who's TRL?

:raises her hand:

Hi! Yer like famous and stuff. Will you autograph my left pectoral please?

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Backlash
Missing TRL in these threads. :(

Her life is probably less stressful though. Can’t blame anyone for that.

Thanks Back. Everytime I spend much time in a political thread, I am so rudely reminded that PB is a Republican and that makes me so sad.

An otherwise perfect man....

[DeV]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
An otherwise perfect man.... You left out old. Never do that again. :nono:

[Gan]

Once upon a time, in a land far far away, there was this unknown hero who decided one day to put down his hammer and chisel. No more would he submit to the evil rulers of this far far land and make stone tablets of prophecy so that the evil empire could use them to confuse and enslave the righteous people of the land against their wishes.

No more would he be a puppet of the puppet masters. He wittingly took the hammer and chisel, struck off his shackles, and gathered up all of the finished blank tablets into his dirty cloth robes and snuck away.

In hiding he chiseled his own prophecy, listing grievance after grievance of how the evil empire was lying, cheating, and stealing from the confused and enslaved people of the land. Then, under the cover of a full moon, he snuck away to free others who were the most severely confused and punished. Freeing them with his hammer and chisel, he gave them the stone tablets to read and spread the word of freedom from oppression.

Others were afraid that the actions of this hero would cause the evil empire to punish them more than they already were. Food would be restricted, fire for heat and cooking would be forbidden. Aid for the sick would be denied. But the hero was not swayed, he stayed his course no matter what happened to the others. For there freedom and the truth could not be denied.

The evil empire brought out many magicians to weave spells of confusion and diversion. Denial shrouded truth and the hero was villianized. Large bounties were placed upon the hero's head for capture and prosecution, but he escaped all efforts through cunning and stealth. No one could steer him away from his persuit of truth and freedom now. He had pricked the giant and he had drawn blood.

But our hero was frustrated. The others he had freed had delivered his prophecy as planned, but the enslaved and confused would not listen. They preferred to be confused and captive. The did not believe that life could be better. Our hero's grand design of truth and prophecy was falling apart right before his very eyes. The evil empire was just too strong, their magicians too powerful to overcome with his revelations alone.

Then from far far away our hero heard a voice calling "Dinner time Nocturnix!". So our hero got in his small boat, and sailed back over a year and in and out of weeks and through a day and into the night of his very own room where he found his supper waiting for him, and it was still hot.

Thats my contribution to this thread.

[Necromancer]

The recounts after the Court decision showed Al Gore had actually won. Not sure where you got your info, but I'm guessing it's where most people got it, from the incomplete recount done the first time (remember, there were two recounts). It was the second recount that put Gore in the lead after a few court cases were finished up that required the first recount to be thrown out.

But by then, the Republicans had done a wonderful job of leading our interest elsewhere, and the Democrats did a wonderful job of letting them.

[Necromancer]

Incidently, I'm not sure where you got that my post was of speculations.

Bush did say he wasn't against abortion. Bush did reenact the Global Gag Rule. Bush did pull out of the ABM treaty (without Congressional consent). Bush did refuse to sign the Rome Statute. Bush did put a man who opposed voluntary desegregation into Attorney General. The ACLU has documents proving illegal surveillance acquired through the Freedom of Information Act. Bush did allow wiretaps without warrants. Declassified documents did show that Bush was told that the connection between Al-Qaeda and Iraq were highly unlikely, and that the source was unreliable, and an FBI officer involved in the interrogation did come out and say the man was beaten into a false confession. People have been held without charges, including US citizens.

I could go on.

Dismissing things as speculative when we have evidence just tells me that you need to spend more time actually reading about what's going on and less time sitting on game forums and wallowing in rhetoric.

Also "That's just wrong" isn't a valid argument.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Necromancer
Dismissing things as speculative when we have evidence just tells me that you need to spend more time actually reading about what's going on and less time sitting on game forums and wallowing in rhetoric.

1. The evidence you speak of is not necessarily evidence of legal standing, nor of enough circumstance to merit indictment or conviction of a crime. But if its evidence enough to motivate you to debate this topic with all of us who spend too much time on game forums then you sir are casting stones in glass houses. If this forum of debate is so beneath you then you can take your pompous ass elsewhere.

[Edited on 12-23-2005 by Ganalon]

[nocturnix]

Originally posted by Ganalon
1. The evidence you speak of is not necessarily evidence of legal standing, nor of enough circumstance to merit indictment or conviction of a crime. But if its evidence enough to motivate you to debate this topic with all of us who spend too much time on game forums then you sir are casting stones in glass houses. If this forum of debate is so beneath you then you can take your pompous ass elsewhere.

[Edited on 12-23-2005 by Ganalon]

...wow...good one Ganalon, you really..got.....him?

Not really sure which evidence youre talking about, but if you havent read the list there are plenty of things listed with cold hard facts that are worthy of impeachment.

i.e. the multiple blatant lies and breaking of laws.

You need to get a new line, the glass house thing is played.



[Edited on 12-23-2005 by nocturnix]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Just a friendly reminder Nocturnix. I'm sure you've seen the usual suspects who will arrive in a valid thread, throw out a few "prove it" taunts and then manage to get the entire thread derailed. It then goes into rinse and repeat ad nauseum.


OR.. we could see just the latest liberal wacko trying to post unsubstantiated claims, rumors and theories.. call them fact, and say "SEE HOW BAD GEORGE BUSH IS!!!"

[Necromancer]

Yup, you may want to actually clarify which evidence you're referring to. The only thing I can think of would be the wiretapping, and if you have read FISA and know anything about Due Process rights, then it is clear that it is illegal. Bush is trying to quote a law that doesn't directly address the situation and that doesn't supercede previous law, particularly since the FISA Courts were created specifically to make domestic surveillance constitutional, as without them it was deemed to be impossible.

And I never said that was anything wrong with participating in these forums, as clearly I do not believe there is, but frankly the willful ignorance of a select few, among whom I count you, is staggering and demonstrates a distinct disinterest in pursuing the facts. Sorry, you need to pull your head out of the ground and start reading around if you want to have a clear picture of what's going on, and that requires you to *gasp* check news sites other than the Heritage Foundation's annual report. When you've bothered giving 1/10 of the facts that some of the anti-Bush posters have come up with, we'll talk. Until then, face the reality that so far in these debates, you have brought very little information, and that you base your arguments largely on personal attacks and deflective statements that don't address the issues at hand.

It's a tactic that wasn't even effective on the playground.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Parkbandit


OR.. we could see just the latest liberal wacko trying to post unsubstantiated claims, rumors and theories.. call them fact, and say "SEE HOW BAD GEORGE BUSH IS!!!" [/quote]

Or we could actually have those who support Bush post something that gives the non-believers something to think about... my past experience has been that when asked directly they can't conjure up much aside from "U R H8R".

This entire surveillance issue should be very interesting....

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Parkbandit


OR.. we could see just the latest liberal wacko trying to post unsubstantiated claims, rumors and theories.. call them fact, and say "SEE HOW BAD GEORGE BUSH IS!!!"

Or we could actually have those who support Bush post something that gives the non-believers something to think about... my past experience has been that when asked directly they can't conjure up much aside from "U R H8R".

This entire surveillance issue should be very interesting.... [/quote]


And for good measure :missu:

[Gan]

Originally posted by Necromancer
Yup, you may want to actually clarify which evidence you're referring to. The only thing I can think of would be the wiretapping, and if you have read FISA and know anything about Due Process rights, then it is clear that it is illegal. Bush is trying to quote a law that doesn't directly address the situation and that doesn't supercede previous law, particularly since the FISA Courts were created specifically to make domestic surveillance constitutional, as without them it was deemed to be impossible.

And I never said that was anything wrong with participating in these forums, as clearly I do not believe there is, but frankly the willful ignorance of a select few, among whom I count you, is staggering and demonstrates a distinct disinterest in pursuing the facts. Sorry, you need to pull your head out of the ground and start reading around if you want to have a clear picture of what's going on, and that requires you to *gasp* check news sites other than the Heritage Foundation's annual report. When you've bothered giving 1/10 of the facts that some of the anti-Bush posters have come up with, we'll talk. Until then, face the reality that so far in these debates, you have brought very little information, and that you base your arguments largely on personal attacks and deflective statements that don't address the issues at hand.

It's a tactic that wasn't even effective on the playground.

If what you say is true then we would have alread seen impeachment hearings and would be listening to you guys bitch and whine about Cheny as president. If the evidence you're talking about is not good enough for the city full of lawyers in DC then I'm sure that makes you know wha the fuck you're talking about.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Or we could actually have those who support Bush post something that gives the non-believers something to think about... my past experience has been that when asked directly they can't conjure up much aside from "U R H8R".

It's pointless, you'll hate no matter what is presented.

It's funny how a lot of the outspoken liberals on this board post and post and post about the same things, then when people who disagree get tired of responding, they declare that they're obviously correct, when the truth is no one cares what they say enough to take the time to consistantly disagree.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Or we could actually have those who support Bush post something that gives the non-believers something to think about... my past experience has been that when asked directly they can't conjure up much aside from "U R H8R".

It's pointless, you'll hate no matter what is presented.

It's funny how a lot of the outspoken liberals on this board post and post and post about the same things, then when people who disagree get tired of responding, they declare that they're obviously correct, when the truth is no one cares what they say enough to take the time to consistantly disagree.

:lol: Thanks for proving my point, Hulkein. You can always be counted on for padding your post count. Quantity not Quality must be your motto.

[Necromancer]

Again, the "If this were true, he'd be impeached" argument holds absolutely no water. If this is the kind of logic you're using to justify the President's actions, well it's no wonder you support him.

Impeachment is a political process. The Clinton administration situation made that abundently clear. An entire party, which comprises a majority of both houses at this point, owes its stability to the stability of the political career of the people in office. Calling for impeachment of one of their own puts their own party at risk, and, consequently, puts their own careers at risk. That's why there has been no impeachment. The people who impeach have to worry about getting reelected and also about keeping their own political power after this administration is over.

Again, this is why Washington warned us against political parties. How many times do I have to bring this up before people stop using this tired, and ultimately illogical, argument? It's just another example of these pro-Bush arguments that aren't founded in any fact or reality whatsoever. A pro-Bush argument doesn't have to be this empty, but they sure tend to be.

[Gan]

So if it walks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck... its not a duck because of the party system?

You're obfuscating the simplicity of the argument.

If it is so against the law as you state that even a first grader can see, then people in DC with more education and law experience than you would have moved on it a long time ago. And if it is so glaring, even (as seen with Nixon) both sides of the aisle in Congress would vote to impeach.

Its your argument that does not hold water. Time for you to find another bucket to hold all of the BS you're throwing around. The one you have is full of holes.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Or we could actually have those who support Bush post something that gives the non-believers something to think about... my past experience has been that when asked directly they can't conjure up much aside from "U R H8R".

It's pointless, you'll hate no matter what is presented.

It's funny how a lot of the outspoken liberals on this board post and post and post about the same things, then when people who disagree get tired of responding, they declare that they're obviously correct, when the truth is no one cares what they say enough to take the time to consistantly disagree.

:lol: Thanks for proving my point, Hulkein. You can always be counted on for padding your post count. Quantity not Quality must be your motto.

Padding my post count?

Put it back to zero, I don't give a shit about it.

If I cared about my post count, I'd go to every mundane political topic and copy/paste the same tired answers to the same tired arguments.

[nocturnix]

Just wanted to drop some more in here before I get sidetracked with new ones...

-Accepting campaign financing from known corrupt and scandalous lobbyist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abramoff"]Jack (".

-Returning 6,000 Jack Abramoff and his corrupt partners donated PERSONALLY instead of returning the full amount of over 100,000 Abramoff and his people raised for Bush's Campaign.

-Planting news and propoganda in the newly "Freed" Iraq's news media.

"Here we are trying to create the principles of democracy in Iraq. Every speech we give in that country is about democracy. And we're breaking all the first principles of democracy when we're doing it,"

[url]http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1201/dailyUpdate.html


[Edited on 1-4-2006 by nocturnix]