View Full Version : Chavez - No Halloween for YOU!
Chavez: Halloween part of U.S. culture of terror
Sunday, October 30, 2005; Posted: 12:48 p.m. EST (17:48 GMT)
CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- President Hugo Chavez urged Venezuelan parents not to dress their children in costumes for Halloween, calling it a U.S. custom that has no place in the South American country's cultural traditions.
Speaking during his weekly radio and television show Sunday, Chavez called Halloween a "gringa," or North American, custom.
"Families go and begin to disguise their children as witches," Chavez said. "That is contrary to our ways."
Chavez said he was urging Venezuelans to reflect on the subject. In recent years it has become common to see Venezuelan parents holding parties for children dressed as ghouls, animals and witches.
In one odd incident a week ago, authorities found more than a dozen jack-o'-lanterns left in spots around Caracas bearing anti-government messages and what appeared to be bomb-like fuses. Police and firefighters removed the pumpkins with caution, though the jack-o'-lanterns reportedly bore messages saying they were not explosives.
Paper skeletons bearing anti-Chavez messages also have appeared in spots across Caracas recently, and government officials have blamed sectors of the opposition with aiming to create chaos.
Chavez did not refer to those incidents in his comments on Halloween. But he urged parents to think about whether it was appropriate to dress up their children as part of a foreign custom, calling it "the game of terror."
He said that is part of the U.S. culture -- "terrorism, putting fear into other nations, putting fear into their own people."
Chavez, a tough-talking nationalist, is a fierce critic of President Bush who blames Washington for "imperialist" actions in countries from Iraq to Haiti.
Chavez says that he is leading a socialist "revolution" to help the country's poor, and that it should include emphasizing Venezuelan cultural traditions over U.S. customs that have been adopted in various countries and reinforced by images of American life on television and in Hollywood movies.
Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
SOURCE (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/10/30/chavez.halloween.ap/index.html)
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I'm suprised he hasnt outright banned it, guess he's saving that for the next step. I wonder if he's going to ban American TV as well and other 'American influences' that have invaded his country. Funny how Venezuelans participate in All Saints Day which is the Haloween equivalent. I believe its called Dia de Todos los Santos. How ironic.
[Edited on 10-31-2005 by Ganalon]
Tromp
10-31-2005, 09:15 AM
and Santa Claus is the International UnaBomber...
Some Europeans aren’t fans either (http://www.thenewstribune.com/24hour/religion/story/2845229p-11501565c.html).
By WILLIAM J. KOLE, Associated Press Writer
Thursday, October 27th, 2005 04:18 AM (PDT)
VIENNA, Austria (AP) - It's almost Halloween - and all those ghosts, goblins, tricks and treats are giving Hans Kohler the creeps. So the mayor of Rankweil, a town near the border with Switzerland, has launched a one-man campaign disparaging Halloween as a "bad American habit" and urging families to skip it this year.
"It's an American custom that's got nothing to do with our culture," Kohler wrote in letters sent out to households. By midweek, the mayors of eight neighboring villages had thrown their support behind the boycott. So had local police, annoyed with the annual Oct. 31 uptick in vandalism and mischief.
Although Halloween has become increasingly popular across Europe - complete with carved pumpkins, witches on broomsticks, makeshift houses of horror and costumed children rushing door to door for candy - it's begun to breed a backlash.
Critics see it as the epitome of crass, U.S.-style commercialism. Clerics and conservatives contend it clashes with the spirit of traditional Nov. 1 All Saints' Day remembrances.
And it's got purists in countries struggling to retain a sense of uniqueness in Europe's ever-enlarging melting pot grimacing like Jack o' Lanterns.
Halloween "undermines our cultural identity," complained the Rev. Giordano Frosini, a Roman Catholic theologian who serves as vicar-general in the Diocese of Pistoia near Florence, Italy.
Frosini denounced the holiday as a "manifestation of neo-paganism" and an expression of American cultural supremacy. "Pumpkins show their emptiness," he said.
To be sure, Halloween is big business in Europe.
Germans alone spend nearly $170 million, on Halloween costumes, sweets, decorations and parties. The holiday has become increasingly popular in Romania, home to the Dracula myth, where discotheques throw parties with bat and vampire themes.
In Britain, where Halloween celebrations rival those in the United States, it's the most lucrative day of the year for costume and party retailers.
"Without Halloween, I don't think we could exist, to be honest," said Pendra Maisuria, owner of Escapade, a London costume shop that rakes in 30 percent of its annual sales in the run-up to Oct. 31. Metropolitan Police, meanwhile, haven't logged any significant increase in crime.
But not everyone takes such a carefree approach toward the surge in trick-or-treating - "giving something sweet or getting something sour," as it's called in German.
In Austria, where many families get a government child allowance, "parents who abuse it to buy Halloween plunder for their kids should be forced to pay back the aid," grumbled Othmar Berbig, an Austrian who backs the small but strident boycott movement.
In Sweden, even as Halloween's popularity has increased, so have views of the holiday as an "unnecessary, bad American custom," said Bodil Nildin-Wall, an expert at the Language and Folklore Institute in Uppsala.
Italy's Papaboys, a group of pope devotees who include some of the young Catholics who cheer wildly at Vatican events, have urged Christians not to take part in what they consider "a party in honor of Satan and hell," and plan to stage prayer vigils nationwide that night.
Don't take it all so seriously, counters Gerald Faschingeder, who heads a Roman Catholic youth alliance in Austria. He sees nothing particularly evil about glow-in-the-dark skeletons, plastic fangs, fake blood, rubber tarantulas or latex scars.
"It's a chance for girls and boys to disguise themselves and have some fun away from loud and demanding adults," Faschingeder said. "For one evening, at least, kids can feel more powerful than grown-ups."
---
Associated Press reporters Marta Falconi in Rome; Tommy Grandell in Stockholm, Sweden; Jenn Wiant in London, and Matthias Armborst in Duesseldorf, Germany, contributed to this story.
Copyright 2005 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
Great article, too bad this isnt about Europe. It is about halloween, so I guess you get .5 credit though.
And what? No famous Backlash commentary defending your favorite dictator?
Amazing how vocal you can be against an American leader whom you hate, but when someone posts something idiotic about someone whom you support you're suspiciously quiet.
Go Figure.
:rolleyes:
Apotheosis
10-31-2005, 09:52 AM
It's funny, because, some local schools have had halloween banned because some witches complained that it didn't portray them right (green skin, warty, etc.).
It's called the People's Republic of Ann Arbor for a reason. (7 square miles of wierdness surrounded by reality, as one person described it).
Originally posted by Ganalon
Great article, too bad this isnt about Europe. It is about halloween, so I guess you get .5 credit though.
This is not an article about Halloween. Its and article of you accusing Chavez of being a dictator and trying to prove it by posting an article of him urging people not to celebrate an American holiday.
My response is to post an article show you that there are many people around the globe who feel the same. So, your rational is incorrect, an anti-halloween opinion does not a dictator make.
Originally posted by Ganalon
And what? No famous Backlash commentary defending your favorite dictator?
A man who has won two democratic elections. I guess either you don’t believe in the democratic system or didn’t bother to look beyond your sources for the truth.
Originally posted by Ganalon
Amazing how vocal you can be against an American leader whom you hate, but when someone posts something idiotic about someone whom you support you're suspiciously quiet.
Go Figure.
:rolleyes:
You have been posting some idiotic things. I’ll speak to points when I want to. One thing I don’t want to do is monopolize these boards for an argument you and I are having.
I disagree with a tremendous amount of this administrations policies. I agree with many of Caracas' policies. Those are my opinions. Sue me.
There are millions of Americans that don't celebrate Halloween. I don't see anything wrong with him wanting to retain his country's own culture and traditions by urging his people to reject American customs. As long as he isn't doing so by terror and brute force.
CrystalTears
10-31-2005, 10:37 AM
Holy crap, Backlash, then move to Venezuela if he's so fucking great and this country sucks for you. Goddamn.
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Holy crap, Backlash, then move to Venezuela if he's so fucking great and this country sucks for you. Because he disagrees with the policies of this current administration he should move to Venezuela?
Yes.
But in all seriousness, why not move to Venezuala if it is so great there and Chavez has such great social policies?
- Arkans
Originally posted by Backlash
Originally posted by Ganalon
Great article, too bad this isnt about Europe. It is about halloween, so I guess you get .5 credit though.
This is not an article about Halloween. Its and article of you accusing Chavez of being a dictator and trying to prove it by posting an article of him urging people not to celebrate an American holiday.
My response is to post an article show you that there are many people around the globe who feel the same. So, your rational is incorrect, an anti-halloween opinion does not a dictator make.
Originally posted by Ganalon
And what? No famous Backlash commentary defending your favorite dictator?
A man who has won two democratic elections. I guess either you don’t believe in the democratic system or didn’t bother to look beyond your sources for the truth.
Originally posted by Ganalon
Amazing how vocal you can be against an American leader whom you hate, but when someone posts something idiotic about someone whom you support you're suspiciously quiet.
Go Figure.
:rolleyes:
You have been posting some idiotic things. I’ll speak to points when I want to. One thing I don’t want to do is monopolize these boards for an argument you and I are having.
I disagree with a tremendous amount of this administrations policies. I agree with many of Caracas' policies. Those are my opinions. Sue me.
1. Actually, the article was referencing Chavez's continual spin and fear mongering he is currently engaging in against the US. The very fearmongering that you have accused Bush of using. And yet you refuse to apply the same standards.
2. He actually won the first election, was unseated in a coup which was late thrown down after he convinced the national run oil companies to halt production thereby putting the breaks on the economy and causing the people to rise up against the very people he was removed by... and he admitted to causing the economic recession just so he could be put back in power. He later won a recall vote/election, because the Venezuelan people were not enlightened that he was behind the economic disaster that was currently under way. The real question is if Chavez will step down after his allowed 2 six-year terms or will he change the rules of the game and remain in power as his Castro idol has done.
3. You saying I've been posting idiotic things is like the pot calling the kettle black. You're just in a huff because I've decided to go after a figure whom you base a lot of your political ideaologies on. Whether you choose to defend him or not, I think it gives solid light on where you come from with some of your off the wall threads and ideas. If one can not discuss them here then why even participate in a forum debate?
Funny how you choose to apply selective rules when you want to and ignore them with the same fervor.
With regards to the sourcing of this info, I elected to stay with Wikipedia since it has remained the more moderate of the all of the information I've been able to pull up on Chavez.
CrystalTears
10-31-2005, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by DeV
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Holy crap, Backlash, then move to Venezuela if he's so fucking great and this country sucks for you. Because he disagrees with the policies of this current administration he should move to Venezuela?
No, because he idolizes a dictator and believes in his administration.
Yeah, doesn't Wikipedia try to remain as neutral as possible and when that is comprised there is a huge disclaimer put on the article?
- Arkans
In reply to the question of why don’t I move.
For many reasons. I am an American, born and raised. I have the right to criticize and offer suggestions for how things could be better in the country I was born in and pay my fair share of taxes in.
When it rains what do you do? Shrug your shoulders and let yourself get drenched or find a way to cover your head?
[Edited on 10-31-2005 by Backlash]
CrystalTears
10-31-2005, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Backlash
When it rains what do you do? Shrug your shoulders and let yourself get drenched or find a way to cover your head?
I shrug and cover my head. I don't yell at my government for not buying me the umbrella.
Originally posted by Arkans
Yes.
But in all seriousness, why not move to Venezuala if it is so great there and Chavez has such great social policies?
- Arkans Or he can continue criticizing the policies he takes issue with and continue to be an American citizen in the process. I guess I just look at it differently. Sort of like hate the player and not the game mantra. I love my city but I don't agree with all the policies of my Mayor. That doesn't mean I'm gonna up and move to bumfuck Egypt just because of that.
Wezas
10-31-2005, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Originally posted by Backlash
When it rains what do you do? Shrug your shoulders and let yourself get drenched or find a way to cover your head?
I shrug and cover my head. I don't yell at my government for not buying me the umbrella.
Jesus, I don't usually give props, but CT you just pwned him using his own scenario.
Sean of the Thread
10-31-2005, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by DeV
Originally posted by Arkans
Yes.
But in all seriousness, why not move to Venezuala if it is so great there and Chavez has such great social policies?
- Arkans Or he can continue criticizing the policies he takes issue with and continue to be an American citizen in the process. I guess I just look at it differently. Sort of like hate the player and not the game mantra. I love my city but I don't agree with all the policies of my Mayor. That doesn't mean I'm gonna up and move to bumfuck Egypt just because of that.
Dev must be the official Cmdr backlash spoke person? You think you might let the guy speak for him self?
I get where you are coming from, but it just seems to me that staying in a place that you disagree with so much is being a glutton for punishment.
Think about it, you can move to these countries with excellent social welfare, fair rulers, and policies "for the people" and show everyone how well it works. That or you can stay in America, enjoy all the perks, and still cry foul.
Maybe it's just me and my coming from a socialist country, but it leaves me scratching my head. Don't just talk the talk, walk the walk!
- Arkans
Kefka
10-31-2005, 11:09 AM
Seems like he's discouraging Halloween to me. Not sure how that makes him different from all the others that discourage it. I can understand outrage if he banned it, forcing his people to submit. This isn't one of those stories.
CrystalTears
10-31-2005, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Arkans
I get where you are coming from, but it just seems to me that staying in a place that you disagree with so much is being a glutton for punishment.
Think about it, you can move to these countries with excellent social welfare, fair rulers, and policies "for the people" and show everyone how well it works. That or you can stay in America, enjoy all the perks, and still cry foul.
Maybe it's just me and my coming from a socialist country, but it leaves me scratching my head. Don't just talk the talk, walk the walk!
- Arkans
:yeahthat:
Originally posted by Xyelin
Dev must be the official Cmdr backlash spoke person? You think you might let the guy speak for him self? lol... official huh. Nah, I'm just voicing a mere opinion. I don't agree with everything Backlash has to say and I do find him to be more than extreme at times. However, telling someone to move to another country just because of that I find to be ludicrous. The problem with me point that out again?
Fanatical ideas are always welcome in an open forum. Just dont run from behing held accountable or when you are asked to defend the wild ideas you bring forth in a civilized debate.
Whats more, is that if an idea or way of life is introduced, it should be introduced with both sides of the story being given, not just the side with rose colored glasses. Or does that rule only apply to that which one is against instead of that which one supports?
Kefka
10-31-2005, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Arkans
I get where you are coming from, but it just seems to me that staying in a place that you disagree with so much is being a glutton for punishment.
Think about it, you can move to these countries with excellent social welfare, fair rulers, and policies "for the people" and show everyone how well it works. That or you can stay in America, enjoy all the perks, and still cry foul.
Maybe it's just me and my coming from a socialist country, but it leaves me scratching my head. Don't just talk the talk, walk the walk!
- Arkans
Isn't this a similar arguement to 'if you like the war so much, why don't you enlist?' People disagree with alot of policies of this country. Why should people leave if they want to make things better?
CrystalTears
10-31-2005, 11:14 AM
Nothing wrong in pointing that out. Nothing wrong with him voicing his dislike for the U.S. government. Nothing wrong in appreciating other countries.
On that note, nothing wrong me telling another unappreciating American who feels the need to state his disdain nearly daily, and would like him to put his money where his mouth is and move where it's so great. :D
ElanthianSiren
10-31-2005, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Backlash
When it rains what do you do? Shrug your shoulders and let yourself get drenched or find a way to cover your head?
I cut their funding. -The same way Bush cuts the states'. I place my reported income level at a point where the government gets no tax money for me for programs that I do not support. End of story. When someone brings some programs that I *DO* support, I will begin reporting income that is taxable post write-off.
-M
Originally posted by Arkans
I get where you are coming from, but it just seems to me that staying in a place that you disagree with so much is being a glutton for punishment.Ok. Example. I can't legally marry my girlfriend in Illinois. I disagree with the fact that I'm not allowed to. Regardless, I love my state and choose to remain because of that loyaty as well as love for my family that resides here as well. What do I do in the mean time... deal with it and continue living life to the fullest. I don't feel as if I'm being punished and if I choose to criticize the policy until it changes that all of the sudden means I need to pack up and move to Canada? Maybe for some people but it's not gonna happen in a million years as far as I'm concerned. I understand your line of reasoning but I think it's as extreme as Backlash has been known to be with his opinions.
ElanthianSiren
10-31-2005, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Kefka
Seems like he's discouraging Halloween to me. Not sure how that makes him different from all the others that discourage it. I can understand outrage if he banned it, forcing his people to submit. This isn't one of those stories.
oh yea, just so I'm on topic. Here you go :D
-M
Originally posted by CrystalTears
On that note, nothing wrong me telling another unappreciating American who feels the need to state his disdain nearly daily, and would like him to put his money where his mouth is and move where it's so great. :D There is something very wrong with that. It's too bad if you can't figure that out.
CrystalTears
10-31-2005, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by DeV
Originally posted by CrystalTears
On that note, nothing wrong me telling another unappreciating American who feels the need to state his disdain nearly daily, and would like him to put his money where his mouth is and move where it's so great. :D There is something very wrong with that. It's too bad if you can't figure that out.
Well I guess you'll just have to explain it to me like a four-year old because if I have to hear constant complaining about the country I love, then in the same breath hear how great the dictator is in another country, it makes me think less of this American and wonder why he just doesn't go there.
[Edited on 10/31/2005 by CrystalTears]
Kefka
10-31-2005, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Originally posted by DeV
Originally posted by CrystalTears
On that note, nothing wrong me telling another unappreciating American who feels the need to state his disdain nearly daily, and would like him to put his money where his mouth is and move where it's so great. :D There is something very wrong with that. It's too bad if you can't figure that out.
Well I guess you'll just have to explain it to me like a four-year old because if I have to hear constant complaining about the country I love, then in the same breath hear how great the dictator is in another country, it makes me think less of this American and wonder why he just doesn't go there.
[Edited on 10/31/2005 by CrystalTears]
Neither the government nor this administration is the country. We can disagree with both and still love our country.
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Well I guess you'll just have to explain it to me like a four-year old because if I have to hear constant complaining about the country I love, then in the same breath hear how great the dictator is in another country, it makes me think less of this American and wonder why he just doesn't go there.
[Edited on 10/31/2005 by CrystalTears] I view his "constant" complaining in the context of one who is extremely displeased with the current policies and actions of the Administration, and not the country as a whole. That makes for a huge difference in my book. I've never read a quote from Backlash saying he hates our country and if he has, then by all means, I digress.
CrystalTears
10-31-2005, 11:35 AM
And that's fine and valid. Never heard him say he does like this country, so we'll agree to disagree.
I just found it incredibly hypocritical for you to tell me he can state his disdain any way he wants but I can't suggest that he move if he dislikes it so much. He can move back when Bush gets kicked out of the White House, ya know. :P
Hugo Chavez love or hate him has won two democratic elections, by a vast majority, thus He is no dictator.
CT it sounds like you are telling Backlash America love it or leave it? To which I would respond using a quote by Edward Abbey.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his Government"
Americans don't celebrate Guy Fox day or Bastille day. If Venezuleans don't want to celebrate Halloween because they view it as an American commercial holiday so be it. Many evangelical Christians don't participate in Halloween because of its evil pagan roots.
Originally posted by CrystalTears
I just found it incredibly hypocritical for you to tell me he can state his disdain any way he wants but I can't suggest that he move if he dislikes it so much. He can move back when Bush gets kicked out of the White House, ya know. :P And in the same breadth I find it completely unAmerican for you to suggest that someone born and raised in America move out because they don't agree with the policies of an Administration. Color me blind. I didn't say you couldn't state your opinion in any way you wished either. It's just that one point of discord I take issue with.
Sean of the Thread
10-31-2005, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by DeV
Originally posted by CrystalTears
I just found it incredibly hypocritical for you to tell me he can state his disdain any way he wants but I can't suggest that he move if he dislikes it so much. He can move back when Bush gets kicked out of the White House, ya know. :P And in the same breadth I find it completely unAmerican for you to suggest that someone born and raised in America move out because they don't agree with the policies of an Administration. Color me blind. I didn't say you couldn't state your opinion in any way you wished either. It's just that one point of discord I take issue with.
Well Dev if you don't like it you can leave too.
j/k
You did the same thing she did. Hated on someone elses opinion.. as you hated on her opinion.
Originally posted by Xyelin
Well Dev if you don't like it you can leave too.
j/k
You did the same thing she did. Hated on someone elses opinion.. as you hated on her opinion. Taking issue with telling someone to leave the country is a tad different than hating on them for having an ACTUAL opinion. That isn't an opinion, sorry.
CrystalTears
10-31-2005, 11:49 AM
Unless I had the power to MAKE someone move, then what I said is still just my opinion.
[Edited on 10/31/2005 by CrystalTears]
Sean of the Thread
10-31-2005, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Unless I had the power to MAKE someone move, then what I said is still just my opinion.
[Edited on 10/31/2005 by CrystalTears]
/agree
It is obviously an opinion and it is obviously her right to say it. No different from the other side of this argument.
[Edited on 10-31-2005 by Xyelin]
ElanthianSiren
10-31-2005, 11:55 AM
Man, I hate you all; get out of my stinking country. I want to detonate the midwest, then move the two coasts together. Now leave, ALL of you. I have an island to work on.
-Empress M
Originally posted by Xyelin
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Unless I had the power to MAKE someone move, then what I said is still just my opinion.
[Edited on 10/31/2005 by CrystalTears]
/agree
It is obviously an opinion and it is obviously her right to say it. No different from the other side of this argument.
[Edited on 10-31-2005 by Xyelin] My bad, it's hard to give credence to such a ludricrous suggestion. Obviously it is her right to say it, didn't say otherwise did I? There really is no other side of the argument. America: Like it or leave it. :?: Alrighty then.
Sean of the Thread
10-31-2005, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Man, I hate you all; get out of my stinking country. I want to detonate the midwest, then move the two coasts together. Now leave, ALL of you. I have an island to work on.
-Empress M
I will serve you!
Originally posted by xtc
Hugo Chavez love or hate him has won two democratic elections, by a vast majority, thus He is no dictator.
First election: 1998 - 56.2% of the vote
Second election: recall vote of 2004 - 59.25% voted against the recall.
Hardly a vast majority. Majority yes, vast no. Unless your definition of vast is vastly different from mine.
As far as him being a dictator... well, by definition he is not, by the fact that he established the MBR which later attmepted a violent take over of the country in 1992. Jailed, then pardoned, then renamed the MBR to MVR, ran for election and won.
He has even less qualifications than Bush with regards to experience unless you count military experience. Basically he is riding on the wave of demand for the Venezuelan oil resources that his country is capable of providing.
If you take off the rose colored glasses, you'll find that this man is no idol nor example of how a country should be run. And you'll also see more alarmist and inflammatory rhetoric coming from his office the closer he gets to the end of his term. I'm curious as to what 'wag the dog' excuse he'll use to justify staying in office a third term.
Sean of the Thread
10-31-2005, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by DeV
Originally posted by Xyelin
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Unless I had the power to MAKE someone move, then what I said is still just my opinion.
[Edited on 10/31/2005 by CrystalTears]
/agree
It is obviously an opinion and it is obviously her right to say it. No different from the other side of this argument.
[Edited on 10-31-2005 by Xyelin] My bad, it's hard to give credence to such a ludricrous suggestion. Obviously it is her right to say it, didn't say otherwise did I? There really is no other side of the argument. America: Like it or leave it. :?: Alrighty then.
Alrighty I can see this going no where. Like it or leave it? Hey it's her opinion. You can hate it or not. That's all I got to say.
CrystalTears
10-31-2005, 11:59 AM
It really wasn't meant to be drawn out into this love America or leave it bullshit. It was mostly my frustration with Backlash's constant griping and bitching about this country's administration and adoration for another's.
I should have just posted :stfu: instead. Go me.
ElanthianSiren
10-31-2005, 12:02 PM
So if we are judging political worthiness by how vastly a candidate won votes, how do you account for a politician who did not win the popular vote his first term and won only 51% of the vote for his second?
-M
Sean of the Thread
10-31-2005, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
So if we are judging political worthiness by how vastly a candidate won votes, how do you account for a politician who did not win the popular vote his first term and won only 51% of the vote for his second?
-M
I account for the laws that govern this nation and call him Mr. President.
CrystalTears
10-31-2005, 12:06 PM
Goddamnit Ganalon, see what you started?!
Originally posted by Xyelin
Alrighty I can see this going no where. Like it or leave it? Hey it's her opinion. You can hate it or not. That's all I got to say. I don't hate her suggestion, I just put it on par with this one... "Theotherjohn : shut up...what I would like to say you so fucking proud of your culture and think it is better than pure white American go back to Peru. One less so fucking called minority to take a low paying job here"
Another great suggestion.. oh, I mean opinion.
Originally posted by CrystalTears
I should have just posted :stfu: instead. Go me. Yep, pretty much. It would not have been drawn out, I can assure you.
Originally posted by Ganalon
Originally posted by xtc
Hugo Chavez love or hate him has won two democratic elections, by a vast majority, thus He is no dictator.
First election: 1998 - 56.2% of the vote
Second election: recall vote of 2004 - 59.25% voted against the recall.
Hardly a vast majority. Majority yes, vast no. Unless your definition of vast is vastly different from mine.
As far as him being a dictator... well, by definition he is not, by the fact that he established the MBR which later attmepted a violent take over of the country in 1992. Jailed, then pardoned, then renamed the MBR to MVR, ran for election and won.
He has even less qualifications than Bush with regards to experience unless you count military experience. Basically he is riding on the wave of demand for the Venezuelan oil resources that his country is capable of providing.
If you take off the rose colored glasses, you'll find that this man is no idol nor example of how a country should be run. And you'll also see more alarmist and inflammatory rhetoric coming from his office the closer he gets to the end of his term. I'm curious as to what 'wag the dog' excuse he'll use to justify staying in office a third term.
People here said Bush won with a vast majority and Chavez won by a bigger margin.
I haven't professed great love for Chavez, to be honest I haven't made up my mind. I simply am saying he won two elections thus he is not a dictator.
Sean of the Thread
10-31-2005, 12:14 PM
Castro won an election as well. Saddam use to win elections also. So therefore they are not dictators.
CrystalTears
10-31-2005, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Xyelin
Castro won an election as well. Saddam use to win elections also. So therefore they are not dictators.
:lol:
Originally posted by Xyelin
Castro won an election as well. Saddam use to win elections also. So therefore they are not dictators.
Chavez won elections in which he ran against other individuals. Maybe we should invade Venezuela and institute our own leader like we did with Pinochet since that worked out so well.
FYI we helped Saddam get in power.
Hulkein
10-31-2005, 12:30 PM
Isn't Venezuela known for being a terrible place to live for anyone with money?
I know the baseball players in the MLB that live in Venezuela have to have constant armed guards around them and their families.
Sounds like a pretty good place to live to me.
Sean of the Thread
10-31-2005, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Hulkein
Isn't Venezuela known for being a terrible place to live for anyone with money?
I know the baseball players in the MLB that live in Venezuela have to have constant armed guards around them and their families.
Sounds like a pretty good place to live to me.
Gah leave it to hulkein to bring baseball into this. Dork.
BlackBelushi (12:08:07 PM): none of the pop vote matters as far as I'm concerned
Legend Wezas (12:08:31 PM): If Kerry had won by electoral and bush by Popular you'd stick by that, Xyelin?
BlackBelushi (12:08:53 PM): yep
BlackBelushi (12:09:11 PM): Thats like saying the red sox had 15 hits and the yankees only had 3.. but the yankees still won the game 3 to 1
Kefka
10-31-2005, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Hulkein
Isn't Venezuela known for being a terrible place to live for anyone with money?
I know the baseball players in the MLB that live in Venezuela have to have constant armed guards around them and their families.
Sounds like a pretty good place to live to me.
Sounds like my old neighborhood. :shrug:
Latrinsorm
10-31-2005, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Backlash
So had local police, annoyed with the annual Oct. 31 uptick in vandalism and mischief. Can't these Euros do anything right? October 30TH is Mischief Night, you cretins.
As an aside, All Saints Day is the day *after* Halloween, hence the "een" suffix. :)
Once again, ONE WORLD. ONE PEOPLE.
Drezzt
10-31-2005, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Ganalon
Speaking during his weekly radio and television show Sunday, Chavez called Halloween a "gringa," or North American, custom.
[Edited on 10-31-2005 by Ganalon]
Very funny, except "gringa" isn't "North American".
It's more like "cracker" or "honkey"
Comunist Bastard.
THE END
Hulkein
10-31-2005, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Kefka
Originally posted by Hulkein
Isn't Venezuela known for being a terrible place to live for anyone with money?
I know the baseball players in the MLB that live in Venezuela have to have constant armed guards around them and their families.
Sounds like a pretty good place to live to me.
Sounds like my old neighborhood. :shrug:
Unless your old neighborhood used to abduct mothers for ransom, I'm afraid you got the wrong idea.
The pitcher Urbina's mother was kidnapped for an extended period for ransom... Guess they weren't happy enough with the governmental social programs????
[Edited on 10-31-2005 by Hulkein]
ElanthianSiren
10-31-2005, 12:54 PM
Rich people and their loved ones are never kidnapped for ransome in the US?
-M
Hulkein
10-31-2005, 12:56 PM
Never.
Obviousley they are, but most Americans don't need 24/7 armed guards for extended family.
Plus, in America, we have horrible social programs so there is a reason people lash out for ransom money, right? If poverty were dealt with via social programs like that in Venezuela everything would be better, I always figured.
Originally posted by Ganalon
1. Actually, the article was referencing Chavez's continual spin and fear mongering he is currently engaging in against the US. The very fearmongering that you have accused Bush of using. And yet you refuse to apply the same standards.
From the title it sounds like you were implying that he was going to take away Halloween from his people. My bad for being able to read comprehensively. I agree though, that kind of rhetoric makes him sound like a crazy Kim Jong Il. Then again, its his opinion and he is entitled to it.
Originally posted by Ganalon
2. He actually won the first election, was unseated in a coup which was late thrown down after he convinced the national run oil companies to halt production thereby putting the breaks on the economy and causing the people to rise up against the very people he was removed by... and he admitted to causing the economic recession just so he could be put back in power. He later won a recall vote/election, because the Venezuelan people were not enlightened that he was behind the economic disaster that was currently under way. The real question is if Chavez will step down after his allowed 2 six-year terms or will he change the rules of the game and remain in power as his Castro idol has done.
This paragraph has a few inaccuracies. Veneluela's economic crisis during his term was caused by strikes in the oil industry which were lead by anti-Chavez elements. In fact, it was the third strike that finally made a difference as the two before failed. This strike came after the failed coup attempt. Then the government and the opposition signed a deal to allow a referendum on his presidency. He won the referendum by a larger margin than his original election.
Originally posted by Ganalon
3. You saying I've been posting idiotic things is like the pot calling the kettle black. You're just in a huff because I've decided to go after a figure whom you base a lot of your political ideaologies on. Whether you choose to defend him or not, I think it gives solid light on where you come from with some of your off the wall threads and ideas. If one can not discuss them here then why even participate in a forum debate?
Yes, I can be off-the-wall. I sort of pride myself on that. Obviously we aren’t going to discuss this in U2Us as I had offered. With three pages now in the subject with little input, I’ll just get it going here. I’ve said all kinds of idiotic things but I usually try stick with facts on subjects like these.
Originally posted by Ganalon
Funny how you choose to apply selective rules when you want to and ignore them with the same fervor.
With regards to the sourcing of this info, I elected to stay with Wikipedia since it has remained the more moderate of the all of the information I've been able to pull up on Chavez.
That Wiki article comes from an Amnesty International report. Look up Venezuela reports. There are three pages worth of reports. Look up the US. 40 pages worth.
There is a decidedly anti-Chavez message going around the right and some corporate American sites. With the nationalization or oil and now land in that country, it does not surprise me that this is the case as I am sure there are many investors here who must have lost out. Most people here don’t give a flip and wont bother to find out on their own whats going on and just listen to what they are told. I’d recommend everyone not just listen to what they are told and look into it themselves.
Sorry I can’t get to everyones replies. I actually work for a living and am busy today.
But one thing I am going to mention...
If criticism means you should leave, then only the silent would remain. Everyone who is unhappy with one of the two parties would be a critic of our system.
Originally posted by Backlash
Sorry I can’t get to everyones replies. I actually work for a living and am busy today.
A socialist who works will wonders never cease :lol:
But one thing I am going to mention...
If criticism means you should leave, then only the silent would remain. Everyone who is unhappy with one of the two parties would be a critic of our system.
Keep running your socialist yap. We may not always agree but you are less obnoxious than some here.
ElanthianSiren
10-31-2005, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Hulkein
Obviousley they are, but most Americans don't need 24/7 armed guards for extended family.
Plus, in America, we have horrible social programs so there is a reason people lash out for ransom money, right? If poverty were dealt with via social programs like that in Venezuela everything would be better, I always figured.
Most Venezuelans do then?
And if most Venezuelans require 24/7 protection, as per your previous argument, then most are rich.
People will always lash out at societal figures that they perceive as recipients of special treatment.
Your point again?
-M
Parkbandit
10-31-2005, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Backlash
I’ve said all kinds of idiotic things but I usually try stick with facts on subjects like these.
I would comment, but I can't seem to type while laughing my ass off.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Some Rogue
10-31-2005, 02:35 PM
I don't think it's the criticism of our country that's so bad. Hell, I think we all do it from time to time. It's the glowing praise of another country and it's leader and how much better they are than us that peeves some people.
CrystalTears
10-31-2005, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Some Rogue
I don't think it's the criticism of our country that's so bad. Hell, I think we all do it from time to time. It's the glowing praise of another country and it's leader and how much better they are than us that peeves some people.
Thank you! That's what I was trying to convey but wasn't working.
Parkbandit
10-31-2005, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Backlash
If criticism means you should leave, then only the silent would remain. Everyone who is unhappy with one of the two parties would be a critic of our system.
Criticism is the foundation of our country and protected by the Constitution under the Freedom of Speech. Criticism is good when used in moderation at specific, factually based problems. It educates the masses and allows light to shine on an issue that might otherwise get covered up.
Criticism used constantly with very little factual basis just to spread hate, distrust and one's own agenda makes all situations worse because even if one is correct that one time... there are too many examples of them being an off the wall lunatic to take it seriously.
Guess which group I put you in Backlash?
Parkbandit
10-31-2005, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Originally posted by Hulkein
Obviousley they are, but most Americans don't need 24/7 armed guards for extended family.
Plus, in America, we have horrible social programs so there is a reason people lash out for ransom money, right? If poverty were dealt with via social programs like that in Venezuela everything would be better, I always figured.
Most Venezuelans do then?
And if most Venezuelans require 24/7 protection, as per your previous argument, then most are rich.
People will always lash out at societal figures that they perceive as recipients of special treatment.
Your point again?
-M
I think his point was that in America, most well to do people can walk the streets without real fear of being mugged or taken hostage for ransom. In Venezuela, that is not the case. Most well to do people there hire armed body guards to help prevent them from getting mugged or taken as a hostage for ransom.
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by Backlash
If criticism means you should leave, then only the silent would remain. Everyone who is unhappy with one of the two parties would be a critic of our system.
Criticism is the foundation of our country and protected by the Constitution under the Freedom of Speech. Criticism is good when used in moderation at specific, factually based problems. It educates the masses and allows light to shine on an issue that might otherwise get covered up.
Criticism used constantly with very little factual basis just to spread hate, distrust and one's own agenda makes all situations worse because even if one is correct that one time... there are too many examples of them being an off the wall lunatic to take it seriously.
Guess which group I put you in Backlash?
Lets be honest during Clinton's eight years, Repubs couldn't find enough bad things to say about Clinton and his administration. The shoe is just on the other foot now.
Originally posted by Some Rogue
It's the glowing praise of another country and it's leader and how much better they are than us that peeves some people.
What you may consider glowing praise might be better viewed as misguided acclaimation. Hell, I don't even like Chavez so this is far from a defense of Backlash's ideas. There are people in this country that idiolize Hitler. They call themselves Neo Nazis. I don't see anyone that disagrees with their criticisms and opinions about the current state of racial ambiguity in this country telling them to go to Germany if they don't like living among cultural diversity.
Give me a break. My one and only qualm is with telling a fellow American to vacate the country of his birth just because you disagree with his criticisms or ideas on what it would take to make things better in his opinion.
Hate his ideas all you want. Argue them down to the nub. But before one decides to tell another citizen to leave their country, they should think of a better way to get their point across without coming off like a blatant extremist themself in the process.
Parkbandit
10-31-2005, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by xtc
Lets be honest during Clinton's eight years, Repubs couldn't find enough bad things to say about Clinton and his administration. The shoe is just on the other foot now.
I don't think I've ever stated that Republicans are above the political spin fray. Hell, I think they might even be better.. just without the publicity that the wacko Hollywood Left offers. I think the way the Republicans behaved during the Clinton years was horrible and the Democrats are now getting back at them.
Doesn't make it right though.. either side.
Dont get me wrong, its not that I have a hatred for Venezuela or Backlash for that matter. Its just that I'm seeing Chavez one who is throwing stones in glass houses. There's way more to this fellow than meets the eye, and to think that his rhetoric and behavior is being emulated by our impressionable youth and adopted as the 'new style of democracy' is scary to say the least.
I agree Backlash, those who are interested in socialism should read up on it intensely before adopting it as the societ of the future. For without capitalism and democracy, this particular example of government would not exist.
Read read read, and then figure out where the truth lies. In the end I think you'll find it does not reside with Chavez. And time will only tell more of his real story.
Sean of the Thread
10-31-2005, 03:07 PM
Tabor said he voted for Chavez in his "election". I demand proof.
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by xtc
Lets be honest during Clinton's eight years, Repubs couldn't find enough bad things to say about Clinton and his administration. The shoe is just on the other foot now.
I don't think I've ever stated that Republicans are above the political spin fray. Hell, I think they might even be better.. just without the publicity that the wacko Hollywood Left offers. I think the way the Republicans behaved during the Clinton years was horrible and the Democrats are now getting back at them.
Doesn't make it right though.. either side.
Very true, with the Dems you get the wacky Hollywood nuts, with the Repubs you get the crazy Religious nuts.
Originally posted by Ganalon
Dont get me wrong, its not that I have a hatred for Venezuela or Backlash for that matter. Its just that I'm seeing Chavez one who is throwing stones in glass houses. There's way more to this fellow than meets the eye, and to think that his rhetoric and behavior is being emulated by our impressionable youth and adopted as the 'new style of democracy' is scary to say the least.
I agree Backlash, those who are interested in socialism should read up on it intensely before adopting it as the societ of the future. For without capitalism and democracy, this particular example of government would not exist.
Read read read, and then figure out where the truth lies. In the end I think you'll find it does not reside with Chavez. And time will only tell more of his real story.
The best system constantly adapts. I don’t see an issue with seeing something wrong with a system and wanting to change it for the better. Without adaptation, the system will stagnate in an ever changing environment.
In this country we have had it ingrained into our heads that the big evil of the world is communism and anything related to it, including socialism, back from after WWII through the 50s. But as a society we do adopt some socialistic concepts to integrate with our own view of what a good system is.
Capitalism in principal is good, but like all things it can become corrupt. In our time or corporate giants, I think we are close if not there, and the focus of our government needs to shift back to the people.
Crap, I don’t have enough time to go as in depth as I want. This last post is done in a hurry.
Originally posted by Ganalon
Dont get me wrong, its not that I have a hatred for Venezuela or Backlash for that matter. Its just that I'm seeing Chavez one who is throwing stones in glass houses. There's way more to this fellow than meets the eye, and to think that his rhetoric and behavior is being emulated by our impressionable youth and adopted as the 'new style of democracy' is scary to say the least.
I agree Backlash, those who are interested in socialism should read up on it intensely before adopting it as the societ of the future. For without capitalism and democracy, this particular example of government would not exist.
Read read read, and then figure out where the truth lies. In the end I think you'll find it does not reside with Chavez. And time will only tell more of his real story.
Chavez has the right to speak his mind and the right to lead his country as he is duly elected. Unlike Backlash I am not a socialist but I believe for capitalism to work it must be moral and fair.
Chavez has done things that make Bush look tame. His tampering with the legal system and the way he unilaterally fired and appointed new Judges would have the ACLU up in arms. His argument was that the legal system was very corrupt and needed sweeping changes to make it fair.
He has undertaken sweeping land grabs and given the land, in what seems like an arbitrary fashion, to the poor. Again Chavez has justified this claiming that the land was stolen from the people in the past and that he is returning it to the people.
The most interesting thing I have heard about Chavez is from a completely unsubstantiated source. A young lady I know claims her family is involved in the South American drug trade and that they have been approached by Chavez to enter into cooperation of sorts for a share of the profits.
[Edited on 10-31-2005 by xtc]
Originally posted by Backlash
Capitalism in principal is good, but like all things it can become corrupt. In our time or corporate giants, I think we are close if not there, and the focus of our government needs to shift back to the people.
And just when you were starting to make a little sense you slide off the cliff again. :lol:
We are far from the Orweilian corperate run country/government that you frequently see Hollywood sci-fi futureisti movies made out of. The power to rule, to govern, and to make a choice still resides with the people. They just have to be smart enough or un-lazy enough to put their decisions and actions to work.
<-- This last post brought to you by Verizon broadband wireless internet and Continental Airlines as I'm sitting in my comfortable upgraded first class seat browsing the PC.
<3 Technology and America for letting me practice this kind of freedom.
Parkbandit
10-31-2005, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by xtc
Very true, with the Dems you get the wacky Hollywood nuts, with the Repubs you get the crazy Religious nuts.
Difference is.. the wacky Hollywood nuts have a platform to get their wackiness out to the ignorant American people who, just because they are movie/TV stars, automatically makes them all knowing about everything.
The only thing I can think of that the right has is their domination of AM talk radio to push their own brand of stupidity... but at least most of them are somewhat knowledgeable about the subject.
Parkbandit
10-31-2005, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Backlash
In this country we have had it ingrained into our heads that the big evil of the world is communism and anything related to it, including socialism, back from after WWII through the 50s. But as a society we do adopt some socialistic concepts to integrate with our own view of what a good system is.
Socialism and Communism are great theories. Who doesn't like the "One for all and all for one" type of mentality? Unfortunately, human beings are far too competetive for it to ever work outside a textbook.
Latrinsorm
10-31-2005, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by DeV
I don't see anyone that disagrees with their criticisms and opinions about the current state of racial ambiguity in this country telling them to go to Germany if they don't like living among cultural diversity. Of course not. They can go straight to Hell.
Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Originally posted by DeV
I don't see anyone that disagrees with their criticisms and opinions about the current state of racial ambiguity in this country telling them to go to Germany if they don't like living among cultural diversity. Of course not. They can go straight to Hell. Well, yeah, but I'm kinda talking about the here and now.
I couldn't agree with you more though! :yes:
Warriorbird
10-31-2005, 05:52 PM
I thought cancelling Halloween was a conservative issue.
:)
Warriorbird
10-31-2005, 05:53 PM
Socialism and Communism are great theories. Who doesn't like the "One for all and all for one" type of mentality? Unfortunately, human beings are far too competetive for it to ever work outside a textbook.
Communism doesn't work. Socialism's worked okay for a variety of places.
Hulkein
10-31-2005, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Your point again?
-M
It flew about six feet over your head.
[Edited on 10-31-2005 by Hulkein]
I have a break before my mid-term.
While I have been one to challenge certain notions about Caracas and have come to find certain policies agreeable I have been careful not to glorify a situation I am not fully aware of. Yes, I have said that I agree with Chavez on nationalizing a countries resources to help his indigenous peoples, but I have never glorified EVERYTHING about the man. That is an exaggeration perpetuated by those who like to debate with me.
Yes, I have a quote by him in my sig. It is a statement he made after coming into power. To understand the context of the current situation you have to understand where things were before. From what I understand, and I doubt many will argue, Caracas was rife with corruption and the gap between the rich and the poor extemely wide. I forget the figure but something like 50% of the population lived in poverty.
Since his term and reforms literacy has risen, more people have access to food, shelter, medicine and vocational training.
ElanthianSiren
10-31-2005, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Originally posted by Hulkein
Obviousley they are, but most Americans don't need 24/7 armed guards for extended family.
Plus, in America, we have horrible social programs so there is a reason people lash out for ransom money, right? If poverty were dealt with via social programs like that in Venezuela everything would be better, I always figured.
Most Venezuelans do then?
And if most Venezuelans require 24/7 protection, as per your previous argument, then most are rich.
People will always lash out at societal figures that they perceive as recipients of special treatment.
Your point again?
-M
I think his point was that in America, most well to do people can walk the streets without real fear of being mugged or taken hostage for ransom. In Venezuela, that is not the case. Most well to do people there hire armed body guards to help prevent them from getting mugged or taken as a hostage for ransom.
My point was you can't infer that rich people do not exist in Venezuela, then claim that the well to do can't go anywhere for fear of being mugged, kidnapped, and robbed.
So a person must either: admit that there are people who are doing very well in Chavez' country and require body guards and that we also have well-to-do individuals who require body guards here, or they can talk about how terrible life is for everyone in Venezuela (which obviously is not the case). Alternatively, they could STFU, as crime happens everywhere or bring some statistical figures of the instances of rape/murder/mugging against people in the country in question vs. the US if that's the argument.
Just saying OMG! I know this guy who knows this guy and therefor this guy's situation is exactly the same as everyone else's is the kind of spin Reps accuse Dems of all the time.
-M
Hulkein
10-31-2005, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Just saying OMG! I know this guy who knows this guy and therefor this guy's situation is exactly the same as everyone else's is the kind of spin Reps accuse Dems of all the time.
-M
It's not 'one guy I know,' it's a well known and reported problem, especially among the Venezuelan athletes.
I'll go back to my original point - sounds like a great place to live, that Chavez is doing a hell of a job.
ElanthianSiren
10-31-2005, 07:11 PM
I agree, kidnapping is a problem, but you haven't presented any figures in your argument to illustrate that it is MORE of a problem in this country than in the country of comparison (the US). For that reason and due to your inference that most of the population is poor, it looks like you're arguing with a stastical anomaly.
-M
Hulkein
10-31-2005, 07:37 PM
It's hard to compare statistics from nations like Venezuela because so many of the crimes aren't reported.
The country is on a record crime pace, with a 150 percent increase in kidnappings and a 124 percent increase in homicides over the past five years, the newspaper El Universal reported.
"Baseball players that are visible are easy targets," said Moises Naim, a Venezuelan-born economist who is editor of the journal Foreign Policy. "When you have a son or a brother that has made it to the big leagues everybody assumes he's wealthy and then becomes a target."
Naim said that many players come from poor neighborhoods and still have family members living in dangerous places: "Crime in Venezuela has affected the poor more than anyone else. It is in the barrios where they lack police service."
"It's very hard to protect individuals. Everybody is vulnerable. And even if you protect your immediate family, what do you do with your uncles, cousins or wife's family?"
President Hugo Chavez survived a recall referendum in August, but his precarious presidency has been marred by violence and economic troubles.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18983-2004Sep13.html
Just offering the other side of the coin. Grass always seems greener on the other side.
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Goddamnit Ganalon, see what you started?!
:lol:
ElanthianSiren
10-31-2005, 08:46 PM
Possibly. 124% doesn't mean much as a figure in and of itself. It's like turning in research without giving units. 124% of which individuals, all? Baseball players? In how many of those cases is physical harm done? How many times are people returned unharmed when demands are met? How do those data compare with American data? How many bodyguards are slain per year? Etc.
I'm not arguing with The Washington Post's presumption about the difficulties of the general venezuelan public, just your case example(s), which were not of the general populace but of famous individuals, who are socio and economic outliers of the population of Venezuela.
Finally, I'm no fan of Chavez personally; that is my opinion, and I'm sure his government has problems, but I will always call when someone uses spin without relative figures. It's basic statistics and something they teach you to do as a science major.
-M
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by xtc
Very true, with the Dems you get the wacky Hollywood nuts, with the Repubs you get the crazy Religious nuts.
Difference is.. the wacky Hollywood nuts have a platform to get their wackiness out to the ignorant American people who, just because they are movie/TV stars, automatically makes them all knowing about everything.
The only thing I can think of that the right has is their domination of AM talk radio to push their own brand of stupidity... but at least most of them are somewhat knowledgeable about the subject.
Ann Coulter stated the Canadian Government sent troops to the Vietnam war. Of course BIG TIME WRONG. The Prime Minister at the time was very against the war and Canada harboured defectors. Ann repeated this assertion when interviewed by the CBC even when she was told she was wrong.
G Gordon Liddy, what can I say the man was responsible for Watergate. A convicted criminal.
Rush Limbaugh, after making statements about the moral failings of drug addicts he turns out to be one.
I think both sides are as bad as each other.
Parkbandit
11-02-2005, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by xtc
Very true, with the Dems you get the wacky Hollywood nuts, with the Repubs you get the crazy Religious nuts.
Difference is.. the wacky Hollywood nuts have a platform to get their wackiness out to the ignorant American people who, just because they are movie/TV stars, automatically makes them all knowing about everything.
The only thing I can think of that the right has is their domination of AM talk radio to push their own brand of stupidity... but at least most of them are somewhat knowledgeable about the subject.
Ann Coulter stated the Canadian Government sent troops to the Vietnam war. Of course BIG TIME WRONG. The Prime Minister at the time was very against the war and Canada harboured defectors. Ann repeated this assertion when interviewed by the CBC even when she was told she was wrong.
G Gordon Liddy, what can I say the man was responsible for Watergate. A convicted criminal.
Rush Limbaugh, after making statements about the moral failings of drug addicts he turns out to be one.
I think both sides are as bad as each other.
I was talking about politics.. not their personal life.
Rush Limbaugh, as retardedly paranoid as he can be, is at least knowledgable about the political process.
Compare that to a Hollywood 'Star' who is up on stage, accepting an award for Best Smile in a Drama, and decides that is the proper time to promote his/her own political views. It has a much broader audience than AM radio and many of the ignorant in this country believe that he/she actually knows what the fuck they are talking about.
Warriorbird
11-02-2005, 07:45 AM
I dunno. There's a new level of FM talk in the country that's becoming very broad, as well as XM radio. Given the number of ignorant people who voted for Bush, I think you and most of the other Republican (or libertarian in the case of Trey Parker and Matt Stone) Hollywood bashers are just playa hating on the stars. Don't be a playa hater.
[Edited on 11-2-2005 by Warriorbird]
Originally posted by Warriorbird
Given the number of ignorant people who voted for Bush,...
Yes, because all the smart people voted for Gore the first time and Kerry the second time Bush was elected. :rolleyes:
God help us, stupid people are in charge. :lol:
CrystalTears
11-02-2005, 10:09 AM
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. :P
I hate it when I hear "ignorant people voted for Bush". Yeah well, lots of people voted for Kerry just because it's not Bush. That, my friends, is just as ignorant.
[Edited on 11/2/2005 by CrystalTears]
Warriorbird
11-02-2005, 10:10 AM
I don't. Y'all have done an excellent job getting precisely what you deserve.
Originally posted by Ganalon
God help us, stupid people are in charge. :lol: Quoted.
p.s. I don't particularly agree with that though it can be fitting at times in any presidency (Repub or Demo). This one more than others it seems. :lol:
CrystalTears
11-02-2005, 10:11 AM
Oh please, you ignorant dems will have your time to shine in the afterglow of our next peabrain president. Give it a rest.
Warriorbird
11-02-2005, 10:13 AM
I thought you were one with the not getting riled up about my posting.
I also thought you showed up as a Democrat on that spectrum quiz.
:)
Cute edit, too.
[Edited on 11-2-2005 by Warriorbird]
There are ignorant Dems as well as Repubs. It's politics and not everyone wants to be as informed as others. It happens.
CrystalTears
11-02-2005, 10:20 AM
That was my point, DeV. There are ignorant people on both sides. I just don't like people making ignorant statements that only one side is ignorant when the stupidity is world-wide.
Originally posted by Warriorbird
I don't. Y'all have done an excellent job getting precisely what you deserve.
I'm quite happy with the fruits of my political labor. Thanks.
Warriorbird
11-02-2005, 10:37 AM
I'm glad for you. So is 38% of America.
:)
Swaying stupid people is one of the hallmarks of political success. Our last two presidents have been brilliant at it.
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Oh please, you ignorant dems will have your time to shine in the afterglow of our next peabrain president. Give it a rest.
So far the Dems and the American people are suffering through this peabrain President.
Originally posted by xtc
So far the Dems and the American people are suffering through this peabrain President.
And I'm sure you speak for ALL the American people... or just 62% of the polling audience plus or minus a few % points... :rolleyes:
Warriorbird
11-02-2005, 11:09 AM
Only as much as you do.
:)
BTW, the 38% is Bush's approval.
[Edited on 11-2-2005 by Warriorbird]
Trinitis
11-02-2005, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by xtc
Hugo Chavez love or hate him has won two democratic elections, by a vast majority, thus He is no dictator.
CT it sounds like you are telling Backlash America love it or leave it? To which I would respond using a quote by Edward Abbey.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his Government"
Americans don't celebrate Guy Fox day or Bastille day. If Venezuleans don't want to celebrate Halloween because they view it as an American commercial holiday so be it. Many evangelical Christians don't participate in Halloween because of its evil pagan roots.
I'm not sure if others missed the undetones of the first post, but it clearly shows that he wants to block Halloween because it's an "terrorism, putting fear into other nations, putting fear into their own people." Trying to preserve his own culture? Perhaps, in some off to the side sense. But from that quote alone, it sounds more like he's trying to breed hate twords the US.
Originally posted by Ganalon
Originally posted by xtc
So far the Dems and the American people are suffering through this peabrain President.
And I'm sure you speak for ALL the American people... or just 62% of the polling audience plus or minus a few % points... :rolleyes:
It amazes me that you can put the word "just" before 62%. 62% is a pretty high number. The vast majority of Americans do not approve of the job this peabrain is doing. So I guess I speak for the vast majority of Americans in this case.
[Edited on 11-2-2005 by xtc]
CrystalTears
11-02-2005, 11:25 AM
I hate those polling things cause no one ever asks me or anyone I know!
Originally posted by Adredrin
Originally posted by xtc
Hugo Chavez love or hate him has won two democratic elections, by a vast majority, thus He is no dictator.
CT it sounds like you are telling Backlash America love it or leave it? To which I would respond using a quote by Edward Abbey.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his Government"
Americans don't celebrate Guy Fox day or Bastille day. If Venezuleans don't want to celebrate Halloween because they view it as an American commercial holiday so be it. Many evangelical Christians don't participate in Halloween because of its evil pagan roots.
I'm not sure if others missed the undetones of the first post, but it clearly shows that he wants to block Halloween because it's an "terrorism, putting fear into other nations, putting fear into their own people." Trying to preserve his own culture? Perhaps, in some off to the side sense. But from that quote alone, it sounds more like he's trying to breed hate twords the US.
He isn't blocking Halloween. He is asking his citizens not to celebrate it. This is what he said on the matter:
"Families go and begin to disguise their children as witches," Chavez said. "That is contrary to our ways.”
Chavez said he was urging Venezuelans to reflect on the subject. In recent years it has become common to see Venezuelan parents holding parties for children dressed as ghouls, animals and witches.
Chavez did not refer to those incidents in his comments on Halloween. But he urged parents to think about whether it was appropriate to dress up their children as part of a foreign custom, calling it "the game of terror."
He said that is part of the U.S. culture --"terrorism, putting fear into other nations, putting fear into their own people."
Chavez doesn't need to breed hate towards the US. Since this President has taken office hatred towards the US has become global. All you have to do is travel outside of America to experience it.
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by Ganalon
Originally posted by xtc
So far the Dems and the American people are suffering through this peabrain President.
And I'm sure you speak for ALL the American people... or just 62% of the polling audience plus or minus a few % points... :rolleyes:
It amazes me that you can put the word "just" before 62%. 62% is a pretty high number. The vast majority of Americans do not approve of the job this peabrain is doing. So I guess I speak for the vast majority of Americans in this case.
[Edited on 11-2-2005 by xtc]
You put alot of faith into the polling numbers... as much faith as Kerry did in winning the South :lol:. Lets see where the polling was done, lets see the sample set, the questions asked, and the range of responses.
Also, you misrepresent yourself by saying AMERICAN PEOPLE as if that is reprsenting every person in America... thats what I was calling you on.
In a nutshell, you're jumping on the bandwagon with the 62% of the polling audience... which may or may not reflect the views of everyone in America... it does not reflect my views therefore I have to protest. Oh, and I wont even go into how many different polls there are and the disparity in the results when comparing them across the board.
:rolleyes:
Hulkein
11-02-2005, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Oh please, you ignorant dems will have your time to shine in the afterglow of our next peabrain president. Give it a rest.
So far the Dems and the American people are suffering through this peabrain President.
You don't even live in America, pipe down about what American's are going through.
Hulkein
11-02-2005, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Warriorbird
Only as much as you do.
:)
BTW, the 38% is Bush's approval.
[Edited on 11-2-2005 by Warriorbird]
Aren't these done the same way that the polling before an election is done? If I remember correctly whenever I'd bring up the fact that Bush is ahead in the polls as a reason for why he'd win, 1023471237 people would be all, "BUT TEHY R NOT ACCURATE 111'
Originally posted by Hulkein
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Oh please, you ignorant dems will have your time to shine in the afterglow of our next peabrain president. Give it a rest.
So far the Dems and the American people are suffering through this peabrain President.
You don't even live in America, pipe down about what American's are going through.
I have joint citizenship and you don't have to live in America to suffer from this President.
Hulkein
11-02-2005, 11:47 AM
Then say 'this peabrain president is hurting joint-citizenship holding currently residing in Canada residents.
You're not in America, don't speak like you are.
Parkbandit
11-02-2005, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Oh please, you ignorant dems will have your time to shine in the afterglow of our next peabrain president. Give it a rest.
So far the Dems and the American people are suffering through this peabrain President.
Weird.. I'm American and haven't gone through any suffering.
Kefka
11-02-2005, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Adredrin
Originally posted by xtc
Hugo Chavez love or hate him has won two democratic elections, by a vast majority, thus He is no dictator.
CT it sounds like you are telling Backlash America love it or leave it? To which I would respond using a quote by Edward Abbey.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his Government"
Americans don't celebrate Guy Fox day or Bastille day. If Venezuleans don't want to celebrate Halloween because they view it as an American commercial holiday so be it. Many evangelical Christians don't participate in Halloween because of its evil pagan roots.
I'm not sure if others missed the undetones of the first post, but it clearly shows that he wants to block Halloween because it's an "terrorism, putting fear into other nations, putting fear into their own people." Trying to preserve his own culture? Perhaps, in some off to the side sense. But from that quote alone, it sounds more like he's trying to breed hate twords the US.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051102/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/americas_summit_8
I doubt Bush will find many friends in Central and South America.
"We've had enough of Mr. Bush, who has committed crimes against humanity," Perez told reporters. He called Bush a "murderer" for his actions in Iraq and elsewhere.
Activists say they not only will protest Bush's actions in the Middle East but also free trade policies they say enslave Latin America workers. They are hoping to draw 50,000 people for their highlight event — a protest Friday."
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Oh please, you ignorant dems will have your time to shine in the afterglow of our next peabrain president. Give it a rest.
So far the Dems and the American people are suffering through this peabrain President.
Weird.. I'm American and haven't gone through any suffering.
I guess you are in the 38%.
Originally posted by Hulkein
Then say 'this peabrain president is hurting joint-citizenship holding currently residing in Canada residents.
You're not in America, don't speak like you are.
See Bush is hurting even the smallest of demographics :D
Chavez threatens to send U.S. F-16s to Cuba, China (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/11/01/venezuela.jets.ap/index.html)
Wednesday, November 2, 2005 Posted: 0138 GMT (0938 HKT)
CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- President Hugo Chavez warned Tuesday he might share Venezuela's U.S.-made F-16 fighters with Cuba and China, accusing the United States of making it difficult for his country to obtain spare parts for the aircraft.
Chavez claimed the U.S. broke a contract to supply parts for Venezuela's fleet of 21 F-16s and pressured other countries not to help maintain them.
"We can do whatever we want with the planes. Maybe we'll send 10 to Cuba, or maybe to China so that they can see the technology," said Chavez, a close ally of Cuban leader Fidel Castro.
Venezuela originally purchased its fleet of F-16s in 1983. Until Chile acquired a fleet in 2003, Venezuela was the only Latin American country to possess the warplanes made by Lockheed Martin.
U.S. officials did not address Chavez's comments specifically. The Pentagon said in a statement that it has not had any conversations with Venezuela regarding the sale of F-16s to any third country, and that regulations governing the transfer of U.S. military equipment are quite strict.
The Venezuelan president's comments -- made during a ceremony announcing Venezuela's plan to launch a telecommunications satellite with the help of China -- are the latest in a years-long series of charges and counter charges that have strained relations with Washington.
Chavez regularly claims the United States is trying to overthrow his government, an accusation the United States has dismissed.
In his comments, Chavez pledged to challenge U.S. "imperialism" at an upcoming Summit of the Americas, beginning Friday in Argentina and drawing leaders from 34 Western Hemisphere nations, including both Bush and Chavez.
Chavez said he would go the summit with the message that Washington's "capitalist, imperialist model" was responsible for exploiting developing economies and ruining the global environment.
He also criticized U.S.-backed free-trade policies that he said make poor nations poorer while keeping them trapped in cycle of crippling debt payments.
"They make us slaves," said Chavez, pledging to oppose the U.S. plan for a Free Trade Area of the Americas and saying it would be "buried" at the summit.
Chavez, who says he is leading a socialist "revolution," has used Venezuela's oil wealth to push for regional solidarity, offering fuel with preferential financing to various Caribbean and Latin American countries.
Venezuela has also bought $950 million this year in Argentine bonds in what Chavez has called a step toward creating a so-called Bank of the South to help provide financing to the region. Chavez said he would be pushing that banking initiative again at the two-day summit.
Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
It would be a shame if those planes were to suddenly explode during transport...
:whistle:
I think the F-16, while a fearsome land based fighter, is not the most technologicaly advanced nor superior fighter plane that the US has at this point in time, so perhaps its not a huge loss... except for the Venezuelan Air Force.
Latrinsorm
11-02-2005, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by xtc
All you have to do is travel outside of America to experience it.England is outside of America (more's the pity). I haven't heard word one against Bush or Americans, and I'm not exactly marching around with a Canadian flag. I've heard a *ton* of bad feeling directed at Blair, but near as I can tell most people couldn't care less about America. Which is a shame, because things really need to get whipped into shape over here.
Now obviously England isn't filled with indifference towards our President, just ask StrayRogue. But to say that Americans are globally hated is wrong, and so impossibly unlikely to be right that it makes me question why you would even suggest it.
Warriorbird
11-02-2005, 01:30 PM
You're also in a country that backed America's play in the war and is traditionally one of our allies no matter what. With that said, I've heard a lot of anti Bush sentiment from English friends.
Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Originally posted by xtc
All you have to do is travel outside of America to experience it.England is outside of America (more's the pity). I haven't heard word one against Bush or Americans, and I'm not exactly marching around with a Canadian flag. I've heard a *ton* of bad feeling directed at Blair, but near as I can tell most people couldn't care less about America. Which is a shame, because things really need to get whipped into shape over here.
Now obviously England isn't filled with indifference towards our President, just ask StrayRogue. But to say that Americans are globally hated is wrong, and so impossibly unlikely to be right that it makes me question why you would even suggest it.
Because everywhere I have been in the past four years that has been my experience. Not to mention the litany of anti-Bush articlez in numerous media outlets around the world.
My English relatives constantly send me clippings on what an idiot Blair is and how is Bush's lapdog. Fleet street has produced a lot of anti-Bush articles. Not one of my relatives/friends/business clients in England has anything good to say about Bush. My sister lived in England last year working for BP and she heard much the same thing from her co-workers.
I work in an office with people with roots from around the world. This is what they have heard from back home.
France - hates Bush
Italy - hates Bush
China- hates Bush
India- hates Bush poltically, loves his outsourcing mentality as they are benefitting from it.
Portugal - hates Bush
Canada has traditionally had close and warm ties with America. I have never heard so much anti-American sentiment since Bush took office. Lucky me being an American citizen they love to tell me how they hate America.
Speaking of Canadian flags, in the past four years, I have been to India and China. On both trips Americans had Canadian flags stitched on their rucksacks and luggage. They wore Canadian Flag pins on their clothes. When I asked them why, they told me they didn't want to be identified as Americans abroad since Americans were so disliked now. Some of them had been told by their travel agents to wear Canadian Flags.
Parkbandit
11-02-2005, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Oh please, you ignorant dems will have your time to shine in the afterglow of our next peabrain president. Give it a rest.
So far the Dems and the American people are suffering through this peabrain President.
Weird.. I'm American and haven't gone through any suffering.
I guess you are in the 38%.
Yes, because everyone that doesn't like the job Bush is doing must be suffering.
Dumbass.
Parkbandit
11-02-2005, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Warriorbird
You're also in a country that backed America's play in the war and is traditionally one of our allies no matter what. With that said, I've heard a lot of anti Bush sentiment from English friends.
Well I've heard alot of pro Bush sentiment from my English friends.
:rolleyes:
Skirmisher
11-02-2005, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Well I've heard alot of pro Bush sentiment from my English friends.
:rolleyes:
Sarcasm aside, while you may have some friends who are British who are supporters of Bush, you know darned well that, as was implied, most Brits are against Bush and his Iraq policies.
Parkbandit
11-02-2005, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Skirmisher
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Well I've heard alot of pro Bush sentiment from my English friends.
:rolleyes:
Sarcasm aside, while you may have some friends who are British who are supporters of Bush, you know darned well that, as was implied, most Brits are against Bush and his Iraq policies.
Actually, I have no British friends. I do have a niece in Britian.. but she's a lost cause because her stupid mother is a BHL that would make WB and Ilvane look moderate.
Skirmisher
11-02-2005, 04:41 PM
haHA!
So you admit it!
Caught in your own little web of deceit......
For shame. :no:
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Oh please, you ignorant dems will have your time to shine in the afterglow of our next peabrain president. Give it a rest.
So far the Dems and the American people are suffering through this peabrain President.
Weird.. I'm American and haven't gone through any suffering.
I guess you are in the 38%.
Yes, because everyone that doesn't like the job Bush is doing must be suffering.
Dumbass.
Easy Gramps I wouldn't want to excite you too much.:bleh:
Parkbandit
11-02-2005, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by xtc
Easy Gramps I wouldn't want to excite you too much.:bleh:
I would have thought I would have gotten a better comeback to my post than that.
Hell, a "God damn it PB.. you are right again" would have sufficed.
Parkbandit
11-02-2005, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Skirmisher
haHA!
So you admit it!
Caught in your own little web of deceit......
For shame. :no:
Dammit.. I feel like a...
Tabor
:sniffle::sniffle:
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by xtc
Easy Gramps I wouldn't want to excite you too much.:bleh:
I would have thought I would have gotten a better comeback to my post than that.
Hell, a "God damn it PB.. you are right again" would have sufficed.
Uh yeah sure PB your right.....damn lying as if my nose isn't big enough already.
Latrinsorm
11-02-2005, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by xtc
France - hates Bush
Italy - hates Bush
China- hates Bush
India- hates Bush poltically, loves his outsourcing mentality as they are benefitting from it.
Portugal - hates Bush That's all well and good, but your initial statement was:
Since this President has taken office hatred towards the US has become global.I might not be the most pro-Euro guy around, but even I'm willing to say they're by and large clever enough to discern between Bush and the United States.
And to provide a dissenting perspective, I haven't seen a single Canadian flag or pin my entire time here, and I've come across many Americans.
Warriorbird
11-02-2005, 07:19 PM
I'll give you that. The only hatred for the US I've experienced overseas (or from foreign friends/relatives) as opposed to hatred for Bush/Republican polices is from some Ukranians, Romanians, and French people.
Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I might not be the most pro-Euro guy around, but even I'm willing to say they're by and large clever enough to discern between Bush and the United States.
Good point. I got no hate or even a curious look in Japan amongst the locals or the fellow travelers.
xtc does have a point as well, however. We aren’t exactly top of the charts right now. One big reason being the war in Iraq.
Warriorbird
11-03-2005, 07:52 AM
The Argentinians love Bush!
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/03/bush.latin.america.ap/index.html
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