Your favorite Plamegate talking point?

[Back]

The Grand Jury meets tomorrow and Friday for the last time. Washington is abuzz, the White House evasive, journalists in a frenzy, and the world is watching.

The implications of what will happen by the end of this week may have started with a leak of an undercover agent’s name to the public through the press but it has vast implications about this administration’s manipulation of information to fool everyone into supporting an unjust and unnecessary war in which innocent people have had their lives taken away or shattered forever, that has driven the profits up for the major petroleum, defense and rebuilding corporations, and has sapped our economy at a time when we need it most.

My favorite talking point is the first, suggested by Senator Hutchinson. Clip from Cobert Report (http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewide/media_player/play.jhtml?itemId=24358). Perjury technicality.

If I remember correctly, Clinton was impeached for lying about getting it on with an intern by special prosecutor Kenneth Star.

Can you say hypocrites?

[edit to add a plural to corporation]

[Edited on 10-26-2005 by Backlash]

[Back]

An update (http://news.ft.com/cms/s/cefd360c-4598-11da-981b-00000e2511c8.html) on the entire story.

We'll get the WMD!

- Arkans

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Backlash
the world is watching. Maybe I'm not hanging out in the right spots, but I haven't heard a whisper of this here in the UK.

Not an undercover agent gets my vote though.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Not an undercover agent gets my vote though.

Take off the blinders man!

[Latrinsorm]

:?: I didn't say I believed it. It's definitely the most talking pointesque though.

[Wezas]

I'm just still chuckling about how this thread went reply-less for 12 hours until it was bumped by the original poster.

[Gan]

Me too.

Not an undercover agent is my vote as well.

Just do a search for Carl Rove to see the initial witch hunt thread that started when the investigation hit the papers. There's been several threads since and momst folks have already weighed in, most of us are just waiting for the GJ notes and decision to roll out. While others are frantically searching for more conspiracy to relate to it.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Arkans
We'll get the WMD!

- Arkans That one gets my vote.

[Tromp]

He's so fappin guilty but will never get indicted. He's too close to da Bush.

[Back]

Its sounds like he wont.

Source: Rove Won't Be Indicted Today (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1258812)

Fitzgerald is holding a press conference at 2pm today.

[Gan]

And it seems that Libby was being deceptive to the Grand Jury... and has subsequently stepped down as chief of staff for Cheney.

Things are getting interesting now.

[Back]

News Alert 12:50 p.m. ET Friday, Oct. 28, 2005
Cheney Adviser Indicted in CIA Leak Probe
WASHINGTON -- Vice presidential adviser I. Lewis "Scooter' Libby Jr. was indicted Friday on charges of obstruction of justice, making a false statement and perjury in the CIA leak case.


For more information, visit washingtonpost.com

[Warriorbird]

My favorite talking point.

"If someone is indicted it won't be a Republican."

[Back]

Transcript (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/28/politics/28text-fitz.html?pagewanted=all) of Fitzgerald’s press conference.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
My favorite talking point.

"If someone is indicted it won't be a Republican."

:lol:

[TheRoseLady]

My favorite talking point came from my friend at work. A born again christian who voted for Bush. She was saying something along the lines of "This is nothing new, they did this sort of stuff during the Clinton administration" blah blah blah and then we hear someone on CNN say something about this is the first time in 135 years that a Whitehouse Senior staffer has been indicted or some such.... I had a hard time not laughing outloud.

[Warriorbird]

My grandfather says he's pretty sure that Fitzgerald voted for Bush, too. People who value things like ethics and integrity over partisan politics can be very dangerous.

[Back]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
My grandfather says he's pretty sure that Fitzgerald voted for Bush, too. People who value things like ethics and integrity over partisan politics can be very dangerous.

Dangerous? Your apathy astounds.

[Warriorbird]

Dangerous isn't always a bad thing.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
News Alert 12:50 p.m. ET Friday, Oct. 28, 2005
Cheney Adviser Indicted in CIA Leak Probe
WASHINGTON -- Vice presidential adviser I. Lewis "Scooter' Libby Jr. was indicted Friday on charges of obstruction of justice, making a false statement and perjury in the CIA leak case.


For more information, visit washingtonpost.com

If I wanted to get the story.. the washingtonpost.com would be the last place I would look.

So much for the 22 indictments.

[Ilvane]

Doesn't really matter how many indictments it is, PB..he was indicted.

I don't get it, why people would want to "defend" actions like this.

If she was an undercover CIA agent, it could have got her killed had she been on her assignment...However they were hell bent on doing something to Wilson for taking away Bush's false reason for war.

It's pretty disgusting, and if they want to compare to Clinton..I'd rather have a man that lied about getting a blow job in the White House than a man who lied about the reason he went to war with Iraq(and all the consequences thereafter).

-A

[Latrinsorm]

Ilvane, could you change your avatar to a sign that says "BUSH SUCKS"? It would save you from having to jam it in every post you make. Maybe in bold red font above the angel?

[Gan]

Rule #1: All politicians lie.

I'm not at all suprised that someone was outed. However, indicted is not yet a conviction so we must treat him as innocent and only charged of a crime, not convicted. And much to the Democrats chargrin, Rove remains free from any mud thus far.

[Warriorbird]

I wouldn't say that. Much like I predicted...he remains unindicted. Having your aide getting an indictment doesn't mean you are free of "mud" however...it reflects back on you.

Personally, I'm curious to see where Parkbandit's righteous indignation is...which apparently was going to come out when a Republican did/got accused of something criminal.

[Edited on 10-29-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Doesn't really matter how many indictments it is, PB..he was indicted.

I don't get it, why people would want to "defend" actions like this.

If she was an undercover CIA agent, it could have got her killed had she been on her assignment...However they were hell bent on doing something to Wilson for taking away Bush's false reason for war.

It's pretty disgusting, and if they want to compare to Clinton..I'd rather have a man that lied about getting a blow job in the White House than a man who lied about the reason he went to war with Iraq(and all the consequences thereafter).

-A

You've obviously not read too much about the situation Ilvane. He didn't get indicted for outting a CIA agent.. he got indicted for his actions during the investigation. The CIA agent was outted before Libby said anything.

Your theory with this.. just like your theory on Bush purposely providing false information so that the US would go to war in Iraq.. is baseless and shows very little factual information. But hey.. keep reading moveon.org for all of your informational needs.

:rolleyes:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird

Personally, I'm curious to see where Parkbandit's righteous indignation is...which apparently was going to come out when a Republican did/got accused of something criminal.



Unlike you, I will allow our judicial process to determine guilt or non-guilt. An indictment doesn't automatically equal guilt in my mind... otherwise, what would be the purpose of a judge and jury?

Libby is not indicted for outting anyone.. he was indicted for his actions during the investigation. If those charges are determined to be true and he is convicted.. then I hope he gets the punishment deserving of anyone in such a position.


[Edited on 10-29-05 by Parkbandit]

[Warriorbird]

Bullshit. I'm sure President Clinton was guilty long before and after the fact in your eyes.

[Ilvane]

hey PB, I know what he got indicted about. Lying.

-A

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
hey PB, I know what he got indicted about. Lying.

-A



Originally posted by Ilvane
I don't get it, why people would want to "defend" actions like this.

If she was an undercover CIA agent, it could have got her killed had she been on her assignment...However they were hell bent on doing something to Wilson for taking away Bush's false reason for war.

It's pretty disgusting...

Sorry, I didn't get that impression from your initial post... as you can see.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Bullshit. I'm sure President Clinton was guilty long before and after the fact in your eyes.

Long before? No.

After the fact? Yes.

Prove otherwise.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Libby is not indicted for outting anyone.. he was indicted for his actions during the investigation.

I think it's safe to say that Libby is intelligent, but also a fucking idiot.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Libby is not indicted for outting anyone.. he was indicted for his actions during the investigation.

I think it's safe to say that Libby is intelligent, but also a fucking idiot.

I wouldn't consider it safe... but then again, I know very little about Mr. Libby. Having the first 'name' of "Scooter" though, leads me to believe he's not totally bright.

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Libby is not indicted for outting anyone.. he was indicted for his actions during the investigation.

I think it's safe to say that Libby is intelligent, but also a fucking idiot.

I wouldn't consider it safe... but then again, I know very little about Mr. Libby. Having the first 'name' of "Scooter" though, leads me to believe he's not totally bright.

PB actually made me chuckle. Did he get the name from an accident? Could very well be since his defense is going to be bad memory.

[Warriorbird]

Not that we haven't heard that defense before, Parkbandit.

:shrugs:

It'd take a lot to convince me of your lack of a double standard, Parkbandit, besides your usual "Go find this defense." I'll be as lazy as you for once. You sure haven't proved anything here.

If Bush were a Democrat I'm sure you'd be all about impeachment.

[Edited on 10-30-2005 by Warriorbird]

[ElanthianSiren]

Scooter is a childhood nickname. The I stands for Irving. I'd go by scooter too.


-M

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Libby is not indicted for outting anyone.. he was indicted for his actions during the investigation.

I think it's safe to say that Libby is intelligent, but also a fucking idiot.

I wouldn't consider it safe... but then again, I know very little about Mr. Libby. Having the first 'name' of "Scooter" though, leads me to believe he's not totally bright. I think he's an idiot for landing himself in his current predicament. He's now going to use the "I can't be held accountable for things I said over two years ago defense" and granted it worked in the Iran Contra Affrair, Whitewater Scandal, and so on. . Regardless of his guilt of innocense, he's screwed his career right up the poop shute.
I think he's intellgent and it has taken him very far up till now. His nickname really has no bearing on why I find him to be a fucking idiot though.

[ElanthianSiren]

He is not President Reagan, first off. IMO if this administration hired someone as a chief of staff, who could not even remember things he said or did with classified info, it has bigger problems than just this.

-M
edit to add: it would not surprise me though, given the calibur of the FEMA director and Ms. Miers. They are known for keeping an insider pulse.


[Edited on Sun, October th, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

[Back]

Dev has a point here that I would like to expound upon.

Everyone in the White House has said “Scooter” is one of the best.

If thats the case why does he all of a sudden have a faulty memory? People who are good at what they do don’t usually have clouded heads.

[DeV]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
He is not President Reagan, first off. I thought that defense worked for more than just Reagan. Only one person did time for that scandal and considering just how many were involved... pretty surprising.

[Edited on 10-30-2005 by DeV]

[ElanthianSiren]

Right, but my point is, Libby is the sacrificial lamb here, I think.

Like Lott said about Miers "Libby who?" It's not like they brought charges against Cheney or Rove or Bush. Honestly, before this, how many times did you hear about Libby?


-M

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Not that we haven't heard that defense before, Parkbandit.

:shrugs:

It'd take a lot to convince me of your lack of a double standard, Parkbandit, besides your usual "Go find this defense." I'll be as lazy as you for once. You sure haven't proved anything here.

If Bush were a Democrat I'm sure you'd be all about impeachment.

[Edited on 10-30-2005 by Warriorbird]

The great part is.. you simply have zero proof, where I have plenty to show that you are exactly like this.

Life is great with a good Republican at the helm for 2 terms. :)

[Warriorbird]

In only your mind is that what's required here, Parkbandit. Keep trying to pass the buck. Rove's clearly good at it... you can be too!

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
In only your mind is that what's required here, Parkbandit. Keep trying to pass the buck. Rove's clearly good at it... you can be too!

Oh please WB.. you've been outted as nothing more than a blind partisan follower.. and you now want to justify it by saying "You're the same thing!" with absolutely zero proof.

Spin it some more.

[Warriorbird]

Err... I have? Gosh. And here I thought I didn't come out a Democrat on that idealogy test. Here I thought I didn't vote for Gore. Funny.

Not seeing much proof of you opposing the party line...or not having a double standard.

Indictments aren't bad! There's some spin for you.

[Edited on 10-30-2005 by Warriorbird]

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Life is great with a good Republican at the helm for 2 terms. :)

Originally posted by Parkbandit
you've been outted as nothing more than a blind partisan follower.. Who's blind again?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Life is great with a good Republican at the helm for 2 terms. :)

Originally posted by Parkbandit
you've been outted as nothing more than a blind partisan follower.. Who's blind again?

Learn how to read DeV.. and to not take quotes out of context to prove a point in which you can't make without doing so.

Thanks.

PS - This run on sentance has been brought to you by the letter 2.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Learn how to read DeV.. Oh, ok and while I'm off learning how to read why don't you learn how to take a sarcastic jab without thinking someone has something to prove in the process. I'm not you.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Life is great with a good Republican at the helm for 2 terms. :)

I agree that life WOULD be good if we had a GOOD Republican at the helm for 2 terms.

Sadly all we've had was the shrub.

[Gan]

""Everyone knows Karl Rove is involved," Reid said. "If the president is a man of his word, Rove should be history."

- Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nevada.


And we wonder where all the knee jerking comes from. Yes, the 'everyone knows' theory is what so makes it the truth. :lol:

And another quote:

"Everyone knows that Vice President Cheney and the president do not like anyone criticizing anything they do," Reid said. "Joe Wilson criticized the basis for the war in Iraq."

He's been watching too many Nixon documentaries. :rolleyes:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/30/leak.probe/index.html

[Edited on 10-30-2005 by Ganalon]

[Skirmisher]

The investigation is not yet completed Gan and indictments may yet be given out.

Your son is adoreable in his costume by the way :yes:

[ElanthianSiren]

I believe Reid was alluding to a statement that Bush made initially about how "anyone involved" in the leak would be fired. Later, Bush ammended his word to the "anyone convicted" statement. If we take Bush as the "anti flip flopper" he campaigned as, Mr. Reid is correct. If we are allowing him to go back on his word, Mr. Reid is incorrect.

-M

[Gan]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
The investigation is not yet completed Gan and indictments may yet be given out.

Your son is adoreable in his costume by the way :yes:


My point exactly... and yet folks are jumping the gun. The concept is a presumption of innocence. I know there are more charges to be handed out, but to have the Democrat leader come out and make these statements is just absurd.

And thanks for the compliment on my son, he's the reason for all of my seasons.

[Edited on 10-30-2005 by Ganalon]

[TheRoseLady]

I had a reply, but deleted it. It's not worth the hassle of just getting more spin. Perhaps one of these days those who support the Repubs will actually wow me with something that gives me something to think about.

Until then back to your regularly scheduled partisan finger pointing.

[DeV]

"We all know" that absurdness in politics knows no bounds. I'm hoping.

[ElanthianSiren]

Gan, I think you may be mistaken when you say that people are "jumping the gun". Bush's own words were that he would fire anyone involved. A person need not be guilty of a crime to be fired if the scandal around them makes law and administration look bad.

Reid is asking that the president stand by his original message. Don't you think politicians standing by their word is a good idea?

-M

[Gan]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Gan, I think you may be mistaken when you say that people are "jumping the gun". Bush's own words were that he would fire anyone involved. A person need not be guilty of a crime to be fired if the scandal around them makes law and administration look bad.

Reid is asking that the president stand by his original message. Don't you think politicians standing by their word is a good idea?

-M

One example of people jumping the gun:
http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=16091

And thats just here. I think Reid is bandstanding and looks like an idiot calling for Rove's head before all the indictements are handed out. Thats the context I got out of the article. Yes, I believe that if Rove is guilty he should be fired. IF HES GUILTY. Saying that "EVERYONE KNOWS..." does not equate to guilty and sounds more like a high school rumor mill justification. But if it works for getting your 15 minutes on TV its ok to be that way. Politicians, bleh. They make you feel like you need a bath.

[Artha]

Just in general, a statement such as:

Until then back to your regularly scheduled partisan finger pointing.
usually has more of an effect if you don't participate in said finger pointing.

[Back]

An issue that seems to be on the back-burner still is who told Novak. I’ve been surprised by how much other stuff has been brought up about other reporters who did not even write stories outing Plame when Novak and his source get to walk.

[Warriorbird]

My point exactly... and yet folks are jumping the gun.

It was totally jumped during Ken Starr's efforts too. It's the nature of special prosecutors.

[Latrinsorm]

If I was in charge of TV, I would have the following put underneath Senator Reid's photo for the next, oh, 18 years: "I don’t have proof so much as wild conjecture and furious paranoia."

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
An issue that seems to be on the back-burner still is who told Novak. I’ve been surprised by how much other stuff has been brought up about other reporters who did not even write stories outing Plame when Novak and his source get to walk.

You would have to go back further than Novak. Plame wasn't exactly a top agent who's identity was a closely guarded secret. I realize it fits nicely into the "BUSH R MAD BECAUSE NO WMDS WERE FOUND, SO HE HAD HER OUTTED TO GET BACK AT HIS HUSBAND FOR NOT GOING ALONG WITH THEIR MASTER PLAN FOR GETTING BACK AT SADDAM FOR TRYING TO KILL HIS DADDY".

:lol::lol::lol:

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Backlash
An issue that seems to be on the back-burner still is who told Novak. I’ve been surprised by how much other stuff has been brought up about other reporters who did not even write stories outing Plame when Novak and his source get to walk.

You would have to go back further than Novak. Plame wasn't exactly a top agent who's identity was a closely guarded secret. I realize it fits nicely into the "BUSH R MAD BECAUSE NO WMDS WERE FOUND, SO HE HAD HER OUTTED TO GET BACK AT HIS HUSBAND FOR NOT GOING ALONG WITH THEIR MASTER PLAN FOR GETTING BACK AT SADDAM FOR TRYING TO KILL HIS DADDY".

:lol::lol::lol:

You are wrong about the closely guarded secret. Unless you know something everyone else doesn't. Just don’t take my word for it, read the transcript of the press conference Fitzgerald gave last Friday about the details of his two year grand jury of the United States investigation.

You are witty, I’ll give you that, but it surprises me how you claim to be patriotic then try and defend the gross injustice of the outing of a CIA agent’s identity, which has happened beyond the shadow of a doubt, and the lying of a top administration official to our legal system.

And your conspiracy is wrong, btw.

[Sean of the Thread]

Well CMDR Blacklash.. I blame it on the liberals number one... and michael moore is fat number 2.

I just felt the need to contribute to this thread.