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Ravenstorm
09-29-2005, 10:23 PM
Considering the recent discussion in the thread on Intelligent Design, this article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html) is very interesting. Quoted below.

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Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent



RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.

He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”

He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.

Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.

He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.

“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted."
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The actual research paper in the journal is here (http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html). Heretical of course but interesting.

Raven

Drezzt
09-29-2005, 10:39 PM
After reading the actual research paper, I come to the conclusion that though the chart proffered does show that the US by far believes in a creator more than many other countries, there was no data backing up the "Believe in a God and your society will get aids" scare that the article tried to color in.
More a case of "Oooh, someone did a study! What can we say about it that will sell LOTS of newspapers!?!?"

Just my two cents

Warriorbird
09-29-2005, 10:44 PM
Yeah. I think it mainly delivered this well.



“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted."

Back
09-29-2005, 10:48 PM
The thing that I came away with was... aren’t all societies, modern and what we may consider primitive, god-fearing? At the very least, superstitious?

If so, according to this study, we (global) as humans are all in danger because we rely on super(beyond-provable guidelines)stitious beliefs.

Does this study say we need to deny our superstitious nature to survive?

Or does this paper simply replicate what happens in densely populated areas?

Gan
09-29-2005, 10:57 PM
My God I agree with Backlash on something... I'm going to go slit my throat now (j/k)

Ravenstorm
09-29-2005, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Warriorbird
Yeah. I think it mainly delivered this well.



“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted."

That is certainly an inarguable conclusion. Now the correlation between religiosity and the societal ills in the US need to be looked at. The paper doesn't declare a definite cause and effect relationship. In the conclusion it merely asks questions and suggest the entire topic needs to be studied more closely.

It also points out that the same difference can be clearly seen in the US itself between New England and the Bible belt.

Raven

ElanthianSiren
09-30-2005, 01:00 AM
I believe that religion is not the key that this paper may be highlighting, rather the concentration of fanatical religion as per the bible belt. It's always amused me how people are on the bottom of the social status quoa call for peace, harmony, and togetherness (the Christians in Ancient Rome). Once on top, the same people form groups mimicing their oppressors (I reference the Kansas Church or various other christian groups like the KKK across our country). History repeats itself.

Anyway, I don't think the problem is in religion itself, as certainly most people are religious to some extent, but in fanatical religious groupings (led by man) who refuse to allow other men and women to live by their own leave and consequences. The problem is when individuals need a universal parent figure or to validate their own existence by belittling another's, thus the "my religion is the only way" mentality; people in such a state are easily led to good and ill. America excels at this mentality in the 21st century; you might say we're competing with the Arab World for the Intolerance Award.

-M

Drew
09-30-2005, 04:06 AM
An interesting counterpoint: during the 18th century when England and America were similarly religious and God-fearing the murder rate in America was 6 to 1 (per capita) as compared to England. This can mostly be contributed towards cultural difference since the availibilty of firearms at the time was similar. As of today the murder rate is 3 to 1. So, according to my data, when a country becomes more secular the murder rate sharply increases.

Warriorbird
09-30-2005, 07:20 AM
Except you completely ignored population change, increase in bureaucracy, and other factors. Not to say he doesn't, mind you.

Drew
09-30-2005, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by Warriorbird
Except you completely ignored population change, increase in bureaucracy, and other factors. Not to say he doesn't, mind you.


Yeah that was my point, not that my study was scientific, that his wasn't.

Latrinsorm
09-30-2005, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Ravenstorm
The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still highEngland has higher rates of violent crime than we do (including murder). I don't know where this guy got his numbers, the sources I can find all agree with me. We do like our sex though, I'll give the article that.

Drew
09-30-2005, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still highEngland has higher rates of violent crime than we do (including murder). I don't know where this guy got his numbers, the sources I can find all agree with me. We do like our sex though, I'll give the article that.

I believe England has a higher rate of every violent crime but murder (and rape too?), if I'm not mistaken.

Landrion
09-30-2005, 10:18 AM
Although I love the supposed conclusion of this study, it reeks of the same kind of non causal effect bullshit you see in a lot of "studies" these days.

The concept works like this. Actual statistics show that rates of Ice Cream consumption always dramatically increases where Drowning Rates increase. How is this possible? Does eating ice cream cause people to drown? Of course not, that's fucking ludicrous. What happens is summer arriving and hot weather. Hot weather makes more people go swimming and possibly drown. It also makes eating ice cream more desireable than in the winter.

Bullshit studies take two things and try to insinuate causality between them simply because of increased incidence. A third factor could easily influence the incidence of the other two. You see this a lot in cancer studies. But, just like the ice cream drownings there is a third factor at work.

So what about this study. Lets say the third cause was poverty. Poverty could tend to increase murder rates and other violent crimes. People might then seek solace over lost loved ones and lack of material comforts in religion (opiate of the masses - thanx Marx). Bingo, increased incidence, not causal effect.

Unfortunately, society has so many factors going on at the same time that any study that talks about 2 incidences is probably a load of shit.

xtc
09-30-2005, 11:29 AM
I think that paper is very unscientific. America is one of the most racially diverse nations on the earth as well. You could conclude that racial diversity causes sexual assault, suicide, murders as well.

Saudi Arabia is a theocracy thus more religious than America and it has one of the lowest theft, murder and sexual assault rates in the world thus one could conclude religion keeps people safe.

Warriorbird
09-30-2005, 12:01 PM
The Soviet Union was incredibly anti-religious but they had an extremely low crime rate until Communism collapsed.

Yeah...it's got a lot of flaws. The only area it works in is refuting some other people's claims.

Gan
09-30-2005, 12:49 PM
Thats because prisoners rights did not exist in communist soviet union. Some prisoners were never seen or heard from again.

I'm sure the justice system by comparison is also a factor.

Warriorbird
09-30-2005, 01:13 PM
Yep. We're almost extraordinarily kind to criminals in comparison.

Other highly religious countries aren't, however.