Scientific Savy? In U.S. Not Much.

[Warriorbird]

Here's why I don't like Intelligent Design. One in five Americans believe the Sun revolves around the Earth.

Here's the New York Times link, touched up a bit.

LINK (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/science/30profile.html?ex=1125547200&en=631977063d726261&e i=5070)

Use Bugmenot (http://www.bugmenot.com) if you have trouble getting the article.

[Edited on 8-31-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Gan]

While I am beginning to understand your 'passion' about/against intelligent design, I would think this could have been included in the other thread you started about intelligent design...

http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=16646

Edited to add why I think it would be appropriate in the other thread.


Originally posted by Warriorbird
Here's why I don't like Intelligent Design. One in five Americans believe the Sun revolves around the Earth.

Here's the New York Times link, touched up a bit.

LINK (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/science/30profile.html?ex=1125547200&en=631977063d726261&e i=5070)

Use Bugmenot (http://www.bugmenot.com) if you have trouble getting the article.

[Edited on 8-31-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Edited on 8-31-2005 by Ganalon]

[Warriorbird]

Eh. The article's about issues with our scientific skills. Might actually be more appropriate in Off Topic.

:shrugs:

[Ravenstorm]

The answer, of course, is to cut the salaries of the already overpaid teachers. (/sarcasm)

No wonder being an 'intellectual' is a strike against anyone running for office.

Raven

[Latrinsorm]

"I get people sending me cards saying they will pray for me a lot.":)

20% seems like a lot (and it's certainly too many), but I'm curious as to how we compare to other countries.

[ElanthianSiren]

I don't see how other country's ignorance (or lack thereof) is relative to an article on that of the united states.

-M
edited missed words.

[Edited on Wed, August st, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

[xtc]

I don't see how you can blame Intelligent Design for the scientific ignorance of Americans. Failure of the public school system is where I would start. This is one of the reasons I like vouchers.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by xtc
I don't see how you can blame Intelligent Design for the scientific ignorance of Americans. Failure of the public school system is where I would start. This is one of the reasons I like vouchers.

I don't think it's the author's intention to blame ignorance on intelligent design.

Re: public schooling -- he actually admits that's the problem and gives an account of trying to reform his public school system by raising taxes and couping the school board basically.

He says it was a dismal failure because it's impossible to run quality schooling under mere taxation. Dilema. Yes.

I believe what he's alluding to is that there is a chain of ignorance in this country. If that 1 person in 5 who thinks that the sun revolves around the earth has a child, in general that child will be just as ignorant. That's one of the reasons that colleges ask you if your parents (or one of your parents) completed college when you apply.

-M

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
I don't see how other country's ignorance (or lack thereof) is relative to an article on that of the united states.If you meant "relevant" (and "another" instead of other), then you are correct that it is not relevant. I was merely asking because I was (drumroll please) curious.

[Gan]

I know many many cognitively gifted people who are the product of non-college educated parents. If thats a standard he's using to base his research then he's missing the boat. There are more factors (insert nature v. nurture debate here) than just simple genetics involved. Perhaps he is looking at both nature and nuture in his research, I just may not be seeing it as its being discussed here.

Has intelligent design failed the scientific programs in schools? No, I think the business aspect of running a primary educational school has failed the academic programs. As ElanthianSiren stated, propping up these programs off a tax structured support system is the problem. Some states are even supplimenting their educational efforts with revenues off of state lotteries. Is this the answer? Who knows, different business models have been proposed, but then you're getting into the delimma of those who can not afford to pay for quality education. Is primary education a right? Is it in the best interest of the US as a country to provide a baseline level of education as it does now? Yes and Yes I think... The question I dont know the answer to is the distribution of said education in a self sufficient and competitive manner as those seen in the international community.

[ElanthianSiren]

Actually my original post said

relative to the united states -- I just edited carelessly. Good to know though.

-M

[Warriorbird]

"This is one of the reasons I like vouchers."

So more people can go to religious schools and pretend that physics and biology don't exist?

:chuckles:

[Fission]

So more people can go to religious schools and pretend that physics and biology don't exist?

Nice broad brush to paint with there. Of course all religious schools completely ignore biology and physics. On the flip side, I'd bet a fair number of kids from those schools might be able to spell savvy correctly before talking on others' ignorance, too.

:wow:

[ElanthianSiren]

College is still the way to go.

Public school was a dismal failure, in my case, because of its environment. Once you tell someone, 'you will either go and learn or not go and fail', it's an entirely different ballgame than siccing a truent officer on them or throwing them in detention.

I had no physics, chemistry, or biology on a high school level before attending college. What was sad was that I was no more uneducated than most of the freshmen in those courses. FWIW, I'm a biotech/biochem major now.

I don't support vouchers because I don't support religion in politics, and because decent schooling should be a thing open to all people I can't support educating one over the other. In truth, I can't formulate a better model, only critique the one that we have. It's hard to argue with the fact of nearly failing 9th grade, being expelled, then passing college with straight A's for the rest of my high school requirements though. I still say, in my case, it was about the option and the fact that nobody would run after me forcing me to go.

-M

[Edited on Wed, August st, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

[Artha]

I don't support vouchers because I don't support religion in politics, and because decent schooling should be a thing open to all people I can't support educating one over the other.
Whoa, how does sending your kid to the best school instead of the closest school bring religion into politics or stop other kids from being educated?

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"This is one of the reasons I like vouchers."

So more people can go to religious schools and pretend that physics and biology don't exist?

:chuckles:

You're letting your disdain for the belief in any supreme being/power etc. get in the way of the debate.

Way to discuss the finer points of religion/politics, and the educational system of the US with a machine gun. :rolleyes:

[ElanthianSiren]

Besides agreeing with some of the fundamental cost problems, I just can't support a school whose aim it is to spread a religion that I wholeheartely disagree with on all but the most fundamental parts (thou shall not murder, thou shall not steal etc), which are found in many other religions.

They actually conducted a survey at the US Dept of education and found that voucher schools were UNWILLING to drop their theology lean, despite added interest and that most were at capacity and unwilling to take minority students (link below).

http://www.ed.gov/Speeches/09-1997/part2.html

Further, I don't agree with any federal funding going into voucher schools because they will not drop their theological stress. Still further, if I sent my child to a school like that, I would expect that they would be influenced by that dogma. I do not want my children influenced by Christianity, especially if they are female. I'd rather send them to a college, as that worked in my experience, and I was still permitted to take religious courses on my interest yet it was not a forced aspect woven into the learning.

-M

[Warriorbird]

"You're letting your disdain for the belief in any supreme being/power etc. get in the way of the debate.

Way to discuss the finer points of religion/politics, and the educational system of the US with a machine gun."

I'm sorry. I like hearing about God...in church.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Warriorbird]

"Of course all religious schools completely ignore biology and physics."

Most of the parents of kids I'd be paying to homeschool do.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Hulkein]

Warriorbird is dead right.

They didn't even HAVE Biology class in my Catholic school. Instead they just showed pictures of dust and dirt and said 'This is what we are from!'

/sarcasm

[Artha]

I do not want my children influenced by Christianity, especially if they are female

Better raise them outside the West then, because it's going to be unavoidable.

[Hulkein]

Artha would beat ElanthianSiren in an armwrestling match, therefore he is right and Artha > ES kthx.

Heh, feminists.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"You're letting your disdain for the belief in any supreme being/power etc. get in the way of the debate.

Way to discuss the finer points of religion/politics, and the educational system of the US with a machine gun."

I'm sorry. I hearing about God...in church.

1. Your method of quoting makes my eyes bleed.

2. Please form complete sentences and complete thoughts.


kthx

[Warriorbird]

"Waah waah waah waah waah."

-Ganalon

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Warriorbird]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"Waah waah waah waah waah."

-Ganalon

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Warriorbird]

Typical WB, avoiding the topic after being unable to defend his silly remarks. You've got the I.Q. and reading comprehension of a walnut.



You're letting your disdain for the belief in any supreme being/power etc. get in the way of the debate.-Ganalon


Like that's anything new? Next time he should just say "DUH" as his response instead of "I R go to chruch and preying".

[Warriorbird]

"Typical WB, avoiding the topic after being unable to defend his silly remarks. You've got the I.Q. and reading comprehension of a walnut."

Randomly insulting me when you were uninvolved with the discussion. Hell yeah! I responded. I'm sorry if it was above your reading comprehension level.

"Like that's anything new? Next time he should just say "DUH" as his response instead of "I R go to chruch and preying"."

Hmm. Like your post is any different?

[Warriorbird]

"You've got the I.Q. and reading comprehension of a walnut."

Curiously, I.Q. wise I'm a bit above average. Nothing terribly special. I nabbed an 800 on my SAT verbal and have been nailing down 100%s on my LSAT reading comprehension practices.

Maybe I should start eating walnuts?

His argument was pretty much a straw man compared to my point, though I did not think I had to spell it out in words of one syllable for your sake or make walls of text so you'd grasp it. I was suggesting that Intelligent Design would make American scientific skills worse and using the article to illustrate American issues with scientific skills.

He then turned around and attacked the article on a base that wasn't even suggested in the article. I usually don't bother responding to stuff like that, and was having fun with the reparte, but some folks apparently can't grasp that.

Originally posted by Warriorbird

Randomly insulting me when you were uninvolved with the discussion. Hell yeah! I responded. I'm sorry if it was above your reading comprehension level.

Hmm. Like your post is any different?

I usually don't bother to debate with you because it seems obvious you aren't that bright. You also rarely bother to debate, and mostly focus on bashing the forces of evil in this world (republicans, God, christians, etc.).

Seriously, dude, you need to step away form all the politics. Only you could read the article you quoted and have your first thought be "This is the reason I don't like intelligent design."

The article has nothing to do with intelligent design, and there's really nothing shocking about that article. Most Americans don't NEED to know anything about molecules other than that they are small. It also mentioned that (the average) American's scientific knowledge has DOUBLED in the past 2 decades.

My advice to you -- Less politics, More trying to convince guys to send money to some girl overseas so that she can be their internet girlfriend.

[Warriorbird]

Did you read my last post? Probably not.

I marvel at your concern for my well-being. I enjoy posting here. There's this mythic option known as not reading what I post.

I'm sorry you haven't contributed much in your time here, T&S. I guess you're bitter about our one extended exchange, so you have to feel like I'm not smart to comfort yourself. Some of the most fun available on the PC is controversy and argument. Maybe you'd be better suited to the official message boards... or maybe I bothered you there too.

I'm pretty happy about life.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Warriorbird]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
His argument was pretty much a straw man compared to my point, though I did not think I had to spell it out in words of one syllable for your sake or make walls of text so you'd grasp it. I was suggesting that Intelligent Design would make American scientific skills worse and using the article to illustrate American issues with scientific skills.

Where is this straw man argument? I see you making a few ridiculous generalizations (religious schools pretend physics and biology don't exist), and a few folks pointing out your obvious ignorance.

Unable to come up with a response, you say "Waah, waah, waah..."

Originally posted by Warriorbird
I marvel at your concern for my well-being. I enjoy posting here. There's this mythic option known as not reading what I post.

I'm sorry you haven't contributed much in your time here, T&S. I guess you're bitter about our one extended exchange, so you have to feel like I'm not smart to comfort yourself.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Warriorbird]

What was our one extended exchange? I don't even recall it.

And I'm not concerned about your well-being. I just think you're an idiot and thought I'd comment on it.

And yes, you are right. I am bitter because I haven't contributed much in my time here. :lol:

Seriously, that paragraph of yours is another great example of your poor reading comprehension. Only YOU could read my comments and come to the conclusion -- "He is bitter because he hasn't contributed much in his time here."

[Warriorbird]

The whole basis of my posting that was the idea that intelligent design would degrade America's already poor educational standards. Probably silly, we have enough people doing that all by themselves, but I enjoyed the article and people tend to complain when I just drop enjoyable links.

The "Waah waah waah" post was related to this:

"1. Your method of quoting makes my eyes bleed.

2. Please form complete sentences and complete thoughts.


kthx "

- Ganalon

I do think teaching intelligent design in schools and vouchers backing things like homeschooling parents teaching their children that there were no such thing as dinosaurs and that the sun revolves around the Earth would reduce America's already poor standards of scientific knowledge.

I don't blame it entirely on public schools... they have a mass of problems, certainly, but I could lay a lot of those at the feet of conservatives... something you'd never accept, however.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Warriorbird]

"What was our one extended exchange? I don't even recall it."

That's funny. It seems to be on your mind.

"And yes, you are right. I am bitter because I haven't contributed much in my time here."

So. What have you contributed then?

:)

Originally posted by Warriorbird

That's funny. It seems to be on your mind.


Oh, you mean that time you were trying to whore out your overseas friend to be an internet girlfriend for money? Why would I be bitter about that? I pointed out what a jackass you were in that thread for even proposing the idea, and you had nothing to say in response.

:?:

[Warriorbird]

Yet it was obviously on your mind.

You assumed I'd suggested it, when I hadn't. Wendy did.

Now... as to the "what have you contributed" question...

...or maybe you could realize your crusade is off topic.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Warriorbird]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Now... as to the "what have you contributed" question...

:lol: What is it with you and this "contribution" thing? Should I up my post count and get a higher rank before commenting?

[Gan]

Look at it this way. If WB did not get out all of his frustration about his life in general then he would either:

1. Go postal at his current place of employment and we would read about him on the evening news.

2. Explode with the force of a 20 megaton feces bomb from holding all that excrement inside instead of spewing it here on the PC.

Your quoting has become as lazy as your arguments WB. Not that you're here to impress anyone, but I thought I'd give you a heads up since your head is already up somewhere else.

Please, continue to find excuses to bash conservatives, religion, and anything else that has slighted you over the years and maybe someday you'll wake up a happier person when it is all out of your system. Just knowing that you can have all of this therapy free on the PC should make you ecstatic.

:banghead:

[Warriorbird]

:yawns:

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
:yawns:

And we'll let this thread :yawn: its way out of activity with that last defining statement. :rolleyes:

[CrystalTears]

Wow. I wonder how you guys are gonna top THAT response. :lol:

I'm really lost on how that article had anything to do with intelligent design. But because it had to do with science, you made the coorelation in order to take a stab at the government, conservatives and religion? Okie dokie smokie.

[Warriorbird]

I never said it did. I should've been more clear in my initial post.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Landrion]

Originally posted by Ganalon
1. Your method of quoting makes my eyes bleed.


Unrelated to the topic, Id really appreciate it if he made an effort to use the quote-/quote method.

[Chastittee]

Sorry to interrupt all the eh...constructive criticism here...but I actually kinda wanted to post my thoughts.

Here's my thought on vouchers...Wouldn't it make much more sense to have an option?
A) I want my child to attend public schools, therefore I will pay the appropriate public taxes.
B) My child will be attending private school, therefore I will pay their fees.

I hate hate hate paying taxes and seeing the money being taken away from the public school system and fed into a private school. It's a private school...Why am I paying for it? Let the parents who feel that this private school is so much better go waste their money on it. I'd much rather see all the tax money go directly into funding the public school system. Maybe then the public schools could afford some better supplies and afford to pay their teachers a slightly better salary.

As far as vouchers going to a religious school goes, in my mind that violates the Constitution by merging church and state. Thats money from the state supporting a specific religion. I'm not saying I have anything against teaching children about religion..I just think there's a better place for it..the church.

And just from my own personal experiences...I grew up 2 houses away from a church/catholic school. I went to public school. My mother babysat a lot of kids from the catholic school...once 8th grade came and went, they were forced to either go to public schools or drive to another town to continue catholic schooling. Most chose public. Here's what happened: Every single one of them went from being a straight A student to a C or D student.

Sure the catholic students started taking Spanish in the first grade and public school waited til 8th grade. But you know what? In my four years of Spanish at the public school, I learned far more than the catholic students who'd had 8 years under their belt before switching schools. Why? The public school teachers were better. They were paid more and were of a better quality. The quality of education they received was pitiful. In second grade I was doing math they didn't learn til fourth. I started using computers in first grade. By time we all hit the 8th grade, their school still didn't have computers.

I know there are places where the private schools are better than the public, but in my experiences, I've yet to see a private school I'd want my child in. So as far as I'm concerned, my children will always attend a public school and I'll always bitch when my taxes are given to a private school.

[Gan]

I think vouchers should be use for public schools only.

I also think that if you decide to send your children to private schools then you should not have to pay taxes that support the public school that your child is NOT going to. Or at least get a tax credit for the tuition spent on private education to defer the cost that is experienced when school taxes are assessed to landowners.

I could avoid school taxes all together and rent; however, renting is an even worse investment in the long run.

Perhaps renters should also pay school taxes if their children attend public school, then some of the burden can be spread a little more equally. :!:

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Ganalon]

[ElanthianSiren]

Actually, the article does reference creationism. Read the second to last paragraph on the last page. It's also an easy connection to draw that most of the participants in the study were Christians. Stastically speaking, the majority of individuals in this country are Christian; as the majority are Christian, it stands to reason that the probability of those sampled also being Christian would be quite high. This isn't to say that all Christians are ignorant, but it's almost laughable to say that there isn't a large Christian base in the study due to the demographics of this country.

I think Chelle brings up some good points that were illustrated to me by a few friends in junior high and my first year at highschool. I had forgotten about FL instruction in 4th grade and having to catch up my best friend when she entered into Upper Merion in 7th from MDP (mother of divine providence -- obviously a Catholic school out here).

I'm still with a college-based system at least for high school credits, however. I still feel that schools in this country are broken. I can't say basing who gets to participate in these types of courses on achievement tests is the way to go, as numerous studies have shown that minorities and inner-city children do not receive the same prep and materials that suburban kids do for said tests.

Also, I know our high schools have AP courses (I took them and passed those tests too). I simply do not feel that the way that most lower tier schools in this country are administrated is conducive to learning.

As for when it starts, I think the slippery slope actually begins in grades 4-8 and builds into grades 9-12. Also, I'm obviously all for home schooling and/or drastically reducing class sizes. This all equates to more money, though. I think the whole education system needs an overhaul, as was already stated, including taxation.

-M

ps As to me being a feminist, damn right. I'm proud to be female and don't appreciate male dominated religions and their little digs at women. Why on earth would I apologize for that or try to hide it from anyone?

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Stastically speaking, the majority of individuals in this country are Christian; as the majority are Christian, it stands to reason that the probability of those sampled also being Christian would be quite high.I don't get where the Christian riff came from but you can't make any statements about a group's performance on this evaluation without the actual study's information at your disposal or a study that states people of all religious backgrounds are equally educated on average. For all we know, only Christians answered that the earth goes around the sun.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Latrinsorm]

[ElanthianSiren]

What I'm saying is if Christians make up the dominant percentage of this country, as we've been told quite often, it stands to reason that MORE Christians answered than any other group; in a loose application of statistics, that suggests that more of the percentage of individuals who answered the question incorrectly were Christian as opposed to other groups (with a smaller stastical sampling due to their contracted size).

I agree that it's a tentative connection, but I see where it could be made based on that paragraph. That was all that I was suggesting.

-M

[Showal]

I went to a jesuit university. I graduated with a degree in Biopsychology. My university has one of the top chemistry and physic departments in the country. I was also required to take two semesters of theology. My theology class was not taught as "the word". My theology class was intended to teach about the Bible as a piece of literary art.

I don't think that religion or religious based schools is the issue here. I believe that America's regard for intelligence and education is the issue. Ignorance breeds ignorance. While intelligent kids may be born to stupid parents, an intelligent child is less likely to use his intelligence and become educated if education is put on the back burner by the parents and relatives and friends of the family, etc.

You gotta raise your children to want to be intelligent and educated. Some religions and cultures actually value these traits. The Jewish religion, if I am not mistaken, encourages learning and wisdom. Islam believes one of the ways to "know" Allah is through learning and study. I know a lot of asian cultures value well educated people. Unless your child is extremely motivated, gifted, and intelligent, if you don't encourage and value education, they won't really care about education.

I think the problem most obviously is school funding ... but the reluctance of people to pay a little more out of their paycheck to ensure their child gets the most out of their schooling is by far the more serious problem. You can't just say the schools aren't teaching your children or that the schools are failing your kids just to pass reforms to cut music and sciences.