There is a god!

[GSTamral]

Here is the link to heaven (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050725/ap_on_bi_ge/labor_rift_21;_ylt=AniYc_fMBvYnft_GyXZSefgp.gMB;_y lu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)

The biggest union finally in decline. James Hoffa, of all people, turning Republican, and hopefully bringing many of the Teamsters over with him. Hopefully some of those other leaders abandoning the Dems that talk without action.

It's about time that they finally begin to realize that their systems are hurting their own more than helping, and crippling industries throughout the US.

[Edited on 7-25-2005 by GSTamral]

[Gan]

A divided labor movement worries Democratic leaders who rely on the AFL-CIO's money and manpower on Election Day.

I'm sure they'll find the money somewhere else if they have to look hard enough...

Unions are an unecessary evil in today's market place. They represent everything that is protectionist and isolationist in today's business economy. Its time they went the way of the dodo bird.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Ganalon
Unions are an unecessary evil in today's market place.

I agree :)

Jorddyn, betcha didn't expect that

edited because I suck at tags

[Edited on 7-25-2005 by Jorddyn]

[DeV]

Originally posted by GSTamral
James Hoffa, of all people, turning Republican, and hopefully bringing many of the Teamsters over with him. Hopefully some of those other leaders abandoning the Dems that talk without action.
Yay for political corruption and organized crime joining the other side?

This all could have been expidited if you just smashed their laptops and spread rumors about alleged homosexuality. God, get with the program.

- Arkans

[Warriorbird]

It'll be wonderful when all the unions are gone. Then nobody will have any rights!

I think they're not doing very well these days...and need a hell of a lot of reform...
but in today's corporate climate being rabidly anti-union is like bending over a table and offering yourself up.

But no, stuff like Enron, Worldcom, and Tyco NEVER happens. You'll be safe! The company cares about you!

[GSTamral]

For every Tyco and Enron, there are literally dozens of companies that have gone out of business because of unions. My company currently funds, in addition to our drivers, retirement pensions for many smaller union bankrupted trucking companies that went bankrupt due to the union.

[Jorddyn]

Link here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050725/ap_on_bi_ge/labor_rift;_ylt=ApeDb5ZwOfoPMoJv9G6JOARp24cA;_ylu= X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)

Could you please replace the one in your original post with this so that I don't have to scroll back and forth to read this thread? Thanks.

Jorddyn

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
It'll be wonderful when all the unions are gone. Then nobody will have any rights!

I think they're not doing very well these days...and need a hell of a lot of reform...
but in today's corporate climate being rabidly anti-union is like bending over a table and offering yourself up.

But no, stuff like Enron, Worldcom, and Tyco NEVER happens. You'll be safe! The company cares about you!

Unions never have and never will protect their employees, shareholders, or anybody else with regards to what brought down Tyco, Worldcom, or Enron.

Unions are no longer necessary to protect workers rights. There are enough governmental regulatory agencies and lawyers with too much time on their hands to pick up the slack. If you still participate in unions then you ARE bending over and offering yourself and part of your salary up for the taking.

[Fission]

But no, stuff like Enron, Worldcom, and Tyco NEVER happens. You'll be safe! The company cares about you!

Okay, Warriorbird, these three companies racked up some pretty massive abuses. Unions would have stopped them from happening how?

:thinking:

[Warriorbird]

If unions actually were decently organized these days, some of the complaints as to seriously shoddy accounting practices might've been heard... and some of these people might've had more of a safety net when people got away with fraud on a massive fucking scale.

They aren't, but not seeing how it might've been nice to have something there if you were a former employee of one of those companies is foolish.

I know countless people who's lives were destroyed by Worldcom in my area... and I worked for a division of Tyco.

But heck, I mean, Republicans can manage to fuck up pensions even FOR unionized airline employees, all while claiming to believe in savings, so it shouldn't suprise me that you all are so rabidly anti union.

[Warriorbird]

"Unions never have and never will protect their employees, shareholders, or anybody else with regards to what brought down Tyco, Worldcom, or Enron.

Unions are no longer necessary to protect workers rights. There are enough governmental regulatory agencies and lawyers with too much time on their hands to pick up the slack. If you still participate in unions then you ARE bending over and offering yourself and part of your salary up for the taking. "

Conservatives... ignoring history for the entire 20th century! Love them trickle down economics, baby!

[GSTamral]

Please explain to me how striking because salaries of 160,000 or more are not enough for our pilots benefits the workers.
Please explain why paying truck drivers more money than educated people in technical jobs benefits society. If anything, it would encourage people not to get educated.
Please explain why companies should have to pay retirement benefits to people who never even worked for them.
Please explain why people who choose not to be unionized get spit on, threatened, and on occasion in some states, fired because they chose not to join? How exactly does that help workers? Join or die doesn't help anyone but the Democrats.
Please explain why a union may petition workers at a company to unionize once a year, even if the workers at the company don't wish this to be so, however, laws created protect unions from being disbanded even when up to 90% of the workers at the company WANT the union to go away. How does this help workers?
Please explain how this is helping the common man when unions practice the following:
1) Promotions based entirely on seniority, not on quality of output.
2) Workers cannot be fired for low output or bad output as long as they don't break any regulations, aka the extremely slow worker dilemna.
3) Workers often cannot be fired, even for reasons of theft, unless it is a documented third offense or worse.
4) Workers who perform well cannot receive bonuses unless everyone senior to them does as well, regardless of performance.
5) Unions can receive all sorts of tax breaks and benefits despite being a political organization that actively affiliates with a political party.
6) Unions can and do refuse membership to anyone who has ever crossed a picket line, often blackballing them from ever receiving a decent job. Real good there.
7) Unions can and do force companies to pay health insurance costs and other costs for workers that never even worked for the company.


The bottom line is unions have become greedy and bloated, and far worse than the corporate interests they seem to use as an example of who is bad in America today.

[Showal]

Unions cause some problems but are helpful to a lot of people. When I went to school at URI for my freshman year, one of the kids on our swim team replaced a light bulb in the locker room because otherwise we would have no light. The school caught wind of it and we had to remove the bulb so a union worker could install it. It took 2 weeks before that could happen.

I should have asked some high school kids to spread rumors that unions are not heterosexual or run over some one in the union's cat. The cat should have chosen a better family.

[GSTamral]

<<
I should have asked some high school kids to spread rumors that unions are not heterosexual or run over some one in the union's cat. The cat should have chosen a better family.
>>

That would have worked well.

[Warriorbird]

Where to start? As usual, you love to throw out a lot of examples in an attempt to make something stick.

Sure, unions today have problems. But...specific symptoms, some inaccurate, does not show that they shouldn't exist.

"Please explain to me how striking because salaries of 160,000 or more are not enough for our pilots benefits the workers. "

If you're a pilot, hell yeah it benefits you. You whine about teachers being paid too much.... yet the "technically educated" not being paid enough. Yet, you curiously make more than teachers... so do most engineers...

"Please explain why paying truck drivers more money than educated people in technical jobs benefits society. If anything, it would encourage people not to get educated."

Because, believe it or not...outside your office real people do real work. It's pretty strenuous and soul numbing. Most of the people who do said work don't outearn an engineer in the slightest. You bash most of the education system yet demand more money for education. Make up your fucking mind.

"Please explain why companies should have to pay retirement benefits to people who never even worked for them. "

Damn, you're far out on this one. Unions have consistently protected pensions... sometimes to an excess, certainly. Without them, companies would not likely be paying anything.

"Please explain why people who choose not to be unionized get spit on, threatened, and on occasion in some states, fired because they chose not to join? How exactly does that help workers? Join or die doesn't help anyone but the Democrats."

Sort've like your friends from Operation Rescue abusing pregnant women? Every political party has its dirty specters. Similar behavior is directed towards non Christians at the Air Force academy yet I don't see you complaining about it. Domination theology is subverting our country and we're spending military funds to "protect Isreal in the end times" yet you still vote Republican. One would think you of all people would question that.

"Please explain why a union may petition workers at a company to unionize once a year, even if the workers at the company don't wish this to be so, however, laws created protect unions from being disbanded even when up to 90% of the workers at the company WANT the union to go away. How does this help workers?"

Because, curiously... the union and the company are seperate entities. Some people might actually want help against being fucked over by a corporation.

"1) Promotions based entirely on seniority, not on quality of output. "

Please explain how paying people more based on their technical education is better than promoting people based on quality of output? Seniority seems a reasonable system in jobs where quantitative standards are not as clear. There's no "performance test" or scoring system for every job. It's sort've like the bullshit Republican "Standards of Learning".

"2) Workers cannot be fired for low output or bad output as long as they don't break any regulations, aka the extremely slow worker dilemna."

And in turn they gained protections from being fired for not working 72 hour weeks in hideous conditions. Yeah....damn bad unions.

"4) Workers who perform well cannot receive bonuses unless everyone senior to them does as well, regardless of performance. "

Again...you assume all jobs have up front quantitative judgements.

"5) Unions can receive all sorts of tax breaks and benefits despite being a political organization that actively affiliates with a political party."

So can churches.

"6) Unions can and do refuse membership to anyone who has ever crossed a picket line, often blackballing them from ever receiving a decent job. Real good there."

Employees can be blackballed for whistle-blowing. Little different.

"7) Unions can and do force companies to pay health insurance costs and other costs for workers that never even worked for the company."

And they also help employees get group health insurance. No! Terrible! Group health insurance! That's horrible.

"The bottom line is unions have become greedy and bloated, and far worse than the corporate interests they seem to use as an example of who is bad in America today."

Sure, unions have problems... but the second half of your sentence fails. You're talking about questions of morality here. You work for a company, right? Morality has no place in the decisions of a modern multinational. Maybe I'd be less in favor of unions if any politician actually gave a fuck about stopping outsourcing.

I sure don't see your devoted companies stopping that.

[Warriorbird]

Morality has no place in a modern multinational unless it changes the bottom line. I also work in an insanely anti union state. The workers here get fucked over constantly.

It's sort've like, "Waaah, unions! They won't let us pay them 20 cents an hour like we do in our factory in Singapore!"

[Edited on 7-25-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Apotheosis]

My friend is a milright (or millwright), unionized. it's nice how his dad claimed 9 children on his taxes, and his son is now doing the same, though between the both of them they only have 1 child.

I love unions, especially when I have an internship at one of the big 3 upgrading computer hardware and software. especially when on one particular day, i was trying to move some boxes from my car to the office, and unfortunately, some union workers stopped me and told me I couldn't do that. They tell me that it has to go through shipping and receiving, and that I'll get it in a day or two.

Lovely.

I especially love my friends who constantly brag about working 3 hours out of a day, taking the rest off, and getting paid for all the time, due to their supervisors allowing it.

Finally, I love unions for conceding to lower wages for future workers, as long as the people currently enrolled got their wages and benefits protected.

[Artha]

It's sort've like, "Waaah, unions! They won't let us pay them 20 cents an hour like we do in our factory in Singapore!"
More like, "Waaah, unions! They don't let us reprimand people for being lazy fucks AND we have to pay them more than they're worth!"

[Ilvane]

It wouldn't be the end of the world if there were some union reforms.

Like Warriorbird, though I believe they are needed in some cases for protecting people in tough work conditions.

My mom worked in a hospital that was unionized..without the union, her bosses were saying they had to work mandatory 80 hour work weeks, or risk getting fired. The conditions were not ideal, and neither was staffing.

So, think about that a little.

-A

[Apotheosis]

we're not likely to see the end of the unions, but certainly, reform is important, and critical to our economy.

http://www.freep.com/money/business/labor25e_20050725.htm

also, the link to the article you posted doesn't seem really clear on why what is going on is going on.

[Edited on 7-25-2005 by Yswithe]

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"Unions never have and never will protect their employees, shareholders, or anybody else with regards to what brought down Tyco, Worldcom, or Enron.

Unions are no longer necessary to protect workers rights. There are enough governmental regulatory agencies and lawyers with too much time on their hands to pick up the slack. If you still participate in unions then you ARE bending over and offering yourself and part of your salary up for the taking. "

Conservatives... ignoring history for the entire 20th century! Love them trickle down economics, baby!

Come up with a real answer instead of throwing out hugged trees next time... :lol:

We've had this discussion before, and I'll reiterate - Unions are the anti-competitive, protectionist, and extremely isolationist in market behavior. Yes Unions were necessary in the early 1900's when the laws governing industry and the marketplace were new and insufficient to protect the rights of the workers. Time has changed however, and if you'd pull your head out of the sand, or your ass, you'd see that everything the Unions try to stand for is already under the protection of a government agency, federal statute, or state statute. The little benefits they do offer compared to that which you can find available to ANY body if you just take the time to investigate are in no way a comparison to how parasitic they are to a company and its ability to survive in the market place.

I bet the number of companies that have had to close due to union's bleeding them to death far FAR outweigh the number of companies that have benefitted from having a union in place. The same could be said for how many workers have been displaced by ex-union closed companies vs. non-union close companies.

A union is like organized religion. It needs their members to be afriad in order to justify their existence and ensure their livlihood. Employees and employers who can think for themselves is their greatest adversary.

[Warriorbird]

"A union is like 'The Republican Party'. It needs their members to be afriad in order to justify their existence and ensure their livlihood. Employees and employers who can think for themselves is their greatest adversary. "

[Warriorbird]

And then...suddenly there's no unions...and we still have no jobs because the companies still move overseas.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"A union is like 'The Republican Party'. It needs their members to be afriad in order to justify their existence and ensure their livlihood. Employees and employers who can think for themselves is their greatest adversary. "

No no... it's the Democrat party that wants the government to do the thinking for everyone else.

Repeat after me...

It's D-E-M-O-C-R-A-T-S

You had the wrong word. :rolleyes:

[Gan]

Originally posted by Ganalon
A union is like organized religion. It needs their members to be afriad in order to justify their existence and ensure their livlihood. Employees and employers who can think for themselves is their greatest adversary.


Originally posted by Warriorbird
"A union is like 'The Republican Party'. It needs their members to be afriad in order to justify their existence and ensure their livlihood. Employees and employers who can think for themselves is their greatest adversary. "

Mockery... the truest form of flattery. I almost want to hug you, but I dont want splinters. :whistle:

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Artha

It's sort've like, "Waaah, unions! They won't let us pay them 20 cents an hour like we do in our factory in Singapore!"
More like, "Waaah, unions! They don't let us reprimand people for being lazy fucks AND we have to pay them more than they're worth!"

BINGO!!! :clap:

[Warriorbird]

Indeed. You're clearly advocating having no power.

[Warriorbird]

"It needs their members to be afriad in order to justify their existence and ensure their livlihood. Employees and employers who can think for themselves is their greatest adversary"

Manipulate the yokels. The Republicans are quite masterful at it. They have both of you.

I doubt either of you qualify to make enough to actually profit out of the Republican Party. Tamral at the least is close enough.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Atlanteax

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"A union is like 'The Republican Party'. It needs their members to be afriad in order to justify their existence and ensure their livlihood. Employees and employers who can think for themselves is their greatest adversary. "

No no... it's the Democrat party that wants the government to do the thinking for everyone else.

Repeat after me...

It's D-E-M-O-C-R-A-T-S

You had the wrong word. :rolleyes:

Let me just guess, you went to U of M too right? http://img17.exs.cx/img17/3650/u8yexpert.gif

Fear is the most important part of what WB said. They use it, and it worked.

[Artha]

Anyone remember that if Bush got elected, he'd start up the draft again?

WATCH OUT FOR THOSE REPUBLICAN FEAR MONGERS THOUGH.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Let me just guess, you went to U of M too right? http://img17.exs.cx/img17/3650/u8yexpert.gif

Fear is the most important part of what WB said. They use it, and it worked.

Yes, despite it being known for being a Liberal campus. (shudders)

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"It needs their members to be afriad in order to justify their existence and ensure their livlihood. Employees and employers who can think for themselves is their greatest adversary"

Manipulate the yokels. The Republicans are quite masterful at it. They have both of you.

I doubt either of you qualify to make enough to actually profit out of the Republican Party. Tamral at the least is close enough.

OMG, I've been manipulated! Everyone open up their eyes and realise that you're really a democrat thats just been manipulated!

:rolleyes:

As for my income, I make what I make, I'm quite comfortable with my dual income family since both of us are degreed professionals. And my income has absolutely no bearing on how I feel to vote or where my morals belong. In fact, even if I had no money at all, I'd still feel the same way and vote the same way.

Nice try, but you're wrong again.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"It needs their members to be afriad in order to justify their existence and ensure their livlihood. Employees and employers who can think for themselves is their greatest adversary"

Manipulate the yokels. The Republicans are quite masterful at it. They have both of you.

I doubt either of you qualify to make enough to actually profit out of the Republican Party. Tamral at the least is close enough.

I'm a Republican because I want to see my fellow Americans be successful (in all aspects of life), earn a good livelihood, and enjoy all that American society has to offer to the individuals that can think for themselves.

[Fission]

But heck, I mean, Republicans can manage to fuck up pensions even FOR unionized airline employees, all while claiming to believe in savings, so it shouldn't suprise me that you all are so rabidly anti union.

I can't speak for others, but for me it's personal, and not just toeing the party line.

When I was younger, I worked at a Food World supermarket. The store went union during that time, and they leaned hard on all of us to join. i asked what the organizer what the primary benefit was, and he said they'd strike to get us higher pay. I asked how much pay increase they'd get for those who joined... and amazingly enough, it was less than the union dues they expected us to pay.

I declined to join, and was the only one to do so. After that, I got leaned on periodically, and had enough pressure applied that it no longer became worth my trouble to work there.

That's one example.

A second, I worked in retail for a while, and at one place I worked (Electronics Boutique) our parent company arranged for an exclusive contract with UPS to handle all our shipping, particularly time sensitive items like new releases. All well and good until the UPS drivers decided to strike and pretty much paralyze our shipping. We got no new product in for some time, lost orders, lost sales, lost customers, and all for what? People making twice what I did complaining that their pay rate wasn't enough? Whatever.

And for a third, where my father worked, a security company, they went union while he was there. He was one of the hardest working employees there, but after the union rolled in, merit no longer mattered. It was all history with the union, who you knew, all that bullshit. He got fucked over for every chance at promotion and advancement until the day he died.

So yeah, go unions.

:thumbsdown:

[Warriorbird]

Maybe the UPS drivers had a good reason to strike. It sounds like you clearly didn't fit in with the culture at the first job.

Without the union, my grandfather probably would've ended like he started... broke, indigent, and depending on crime. These days he's a wealthy man who's done a lot for the country. I find Tamral's Horatio Alger nonsense funny when unions have done a tremendous amount for the American working public. I doubt grandpa would've had the chances he did without the union.

My parents wouldn't have the jobs they have today without TIAA-Creff.



[Edited on 7-26-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Warriorbird]

"I'm a Republican because I want to see my fellow Americans be successful (in all aspects of life), earn a good livelihood, and enjoy all that American society has to offer to the individuals that can think for themselves. "

Are you making over 200k yet?

The Republican Party is solely about self interest.

[GSTamral]

It is completely asinine to say that just because there are a few jobs out there where work cannot be quantified, that all union positions in every job should automatically not be quantified and success cannot be related to anything other than seniority.

Hate to break the news to you, but here at UPS, we have more than 20 different measures for drivers. There are people who's jobs are nothing more than to measure things like stops per on road man-hour, volumes delivered, volumes collected, pickup revenue, and many other measures that have nothing to do with seniority.

When you can quantify, performance, bonuses, and promotions should be based on those quantifyable measures.

Look at the most powerful unions in the United States and just analyze them.

Full Time Toll Workers - get paid in excess of 75,000 a year to collect tolls. All kinds of benefits. For what? Being an overglorified cash register person? Yeah, that really helps America a lot.

Postal Service - they are measured in volume of mail per day, in ounces of mail. The number of ounces has not changed in over 30 years. This despite advances in automobiles and the invention of bulk mail. Meaning they are doing less stops, in better vehicles, and getting done with their work in 3-4 hours, but still are getting paid 8 hour days. Yes, thats wonderfully effective.

Rail Workers - same thing, except a full 8 hour day is still considered to be 120 miles. Yes, excellent, lets pay loads and loads of overtime and keep increasing pay. That's the way to get em.

Unions don't protect honest workers, and they haven't for years. They protect dishonest and lazy workers. The actual people who do the sorting and other hub operations have not received a pay hike in 7 years. They are still making 8 bucks an hour for the real physical labor. But we can't increase their salaries. Not by a penny. Union won't allow it. Instead, because the Drivers are members of the Teamsters, and the sorters are part timers, they prefer to give hikes every year to the drivers, while the part timers toil for no benefits. They even pay union dues, to the tune of 2 hours of salary a month, for NOTHING. GO UNIONS! Go WarmongeringLazyWorkers!

[GSTamral]

You don't need to make over 200k to benefit from the Republican cuts. I make a shade over half of that, and I see quite a benefit each year.

Yes, the UPS drivers had an excellent reason to strike. 29 dollars an hour was not enough. The union didn't like that we proposed a hike from 29 dollars an hour to 33, while also increasing sorter and other hub worker salaries to 9 and 10 dollars an hour from the current 8. Because the teamsters care about the common worker and these unions are so amazing, they said, fuck the people making 8 an hour, we don't want them to get any more, and since we own them, we'd rather give ALL the money to the drivers, and make that increase to 35 an hour over the next 7 years. And while we're at it, those people who are independant truckers at Overnight, we want you to fire all of those non-union bastards, so we can increase our paying membership and replace them with union people!

Go Unions!

[Warriorbird]

Tiny violins.

This all meant to justify your salary being hiked?

If you have such issues, get some collective bargaining.

:grins:

I'm also noting some national salary figures not agreeing with yours.

[Edited on 7-26-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Back]

I would be considered a democrat/left/liberal because my attitude on life is live and let live with few exceptions.

I always thought unions originated to protect the worker from exploitation. Thats why we don’t have child labor sweatshops in this country.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"I'm a Republican because I want to see my fellow Americans be successful (in all aspects of life), earn a good livelihood, and enjoy all that American society has to offer to the individuals that can think for themselves. "

Are you making over 200k yet?

The Republican Party is solely about self interest.

And the Democratic Party is solely about using the rich man's money to feed everyone else. And don't think that the Dems aren't about self-interest when all they care about is who will take care of them when they get older rather than thinking ahead. Always about entitlement rather than what is deserved.

The extremes of both sides sucks and there really needs to be a little of both parties coming together for this country. Neither side alone works.

[GSTamral]

<<
I always thought unions originated to protect the worker from exploitation. Thats why we don’t have child labor sweatshops in this country.

>>

Originated being the key word here. That's why they originated. That's why they were necessary 100 years ago. What Unions do today and what they did 100 years ago are nothing alike. It's akin to compairing the Marxist view on socialism to the implementation of communism in China.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by GSTamral
For every Tyco and Enron, there are literally dozens of companies that have gone out of business because of unions. My company currently funds, in addition to our drivers, retirement pensions for many smaller union bankrupted trucking companies that went bankrupt due to the union.

In the real world, unions play only a minor role in the downfall of any company. The one true reason these companies fail is poor and over bloated management.

When your management to labor ratio is heavy on the management side ... your company is fucked plain and simple. If you're a goods producer and you have a labor force of 1000 and 5000 people to manage the people, the product, the sales, and people to manage those people, and still more people to manage those people ... you've done nothing but allowed your management to justify substandard benefits and wages to the people that make the company work. That's typically when a union comes in.

Cut your management and you cut your tumor. Unions are nothing more than a typical response to shitty pay.


Originally posted by Ganalon
Unions are no longer necessary to protect workers rights. There are enough governmental regulatory agencies and lawyers with too much time on their hands to pick up the slack. If you still participate in unions then you ARE bending over and offering yourself and part of your salary up for the taking.

Not exactly true either. When most companies chose termination over lay-offs, there is nothing the legal world can do to protect employees. During lean times many companies will change their policies and work retroactively to eliminate "policy offenders" in such a way to deny them unemployment benefits.

Working conditions normally do not change, if hazardous to begin with, so long as you keep regulatory entities such as OSHA and the EPA happy with timely payments on minor fines.

The government offers very little protection to employees of any industry.

Let's not forget that many companies are using temp services to staff their ranks. By doing so they use a loop hole in the law that allows them to treat their pseudo-employees in any manner they wish. Turn an 8 hour day into a 12 hour day. Turn a 5 day work week into a 7 day work week. Relax safety concerns. Give illegals work. You name it and it can be done through a temp service. If the employee isn't willing to work the long hours and weeks, if they're not willing to endanger themselves, and if they're not willing to take the corn hole without lube, well they're not fired .... they're just waiting on more work through the temp service. Unable to collect unemployment, outside of any real protection ... because they are technically employed and considered part time ... even if they work 40 or more hours per week.


Originally posted by GSTamral
Please explain to me how striking because salaries of 160,000 or more are not enough for our pilots benefits the workers.

I would if the statement made sense.


Please explain why paying truck drivers more money than educated people in technical jobs benefits society.

Because a degree does not really make a person worth more. Get a degree and get a job where in essence you're really worthless to the company and don't really contribute 1/1000 of what the person with a HS diploma performing the functions that the company is known for.

In your case, shipping/delivery. Without the drivers, without the sorters, without the distributors ... without those people actually doing what the company does, there is no company. There is no point to the existence of the company. These are the people making the company money. They are exactly 1 half of the company’s life blood, the other being the customers. Customers get treated rather well ... they get what they pay for. The employees at that level generally don't get paid for a quarter of what they do. That money, as pointed out in the first part of my reply, is sucked up by the over bloated chain of management.


If anything, it would encourage people not to get educated.

Chances are that without the union, these people would earn too much to qualify for any financial support, yet not earn enough to pay for it on their own. Let's not forget that most companies offer reimbursement only because they know that no one at that level really wants to work in the industry they are in. They don't reimburse education costs unless it pertains to the industry. Second they know that their policies will never be relaxed enough to allow a full time laborer to attend college without losing his/her job because of it.


Please explain why companies should have to pay retirement benefits to people who never even worked for them.

If it's the case of using temps, then it's nothing more than a technicality. If it's a typical statement pulled from your rectum, then the question needs to be more specific.


Please explain why people who choose not to be unionized get spit on, threatened, and on occasion in some states, fired because they chose not to join?

If this were the early 80s or before, I would see your point. While I am not saying it doesn't occur now, it just doesn't happen all that often. Intimidation is more or less on the company to allow union entrance for fear of disruptions in distribution or inbound capabilities.


How exactly does that help workers? Join or die doesn't help anyone but the Democrats.

Have to love blanket political statements from a non-voting conservative.

Chances are that if the company treated their employees well, unions would be laughed at. Unions are opportunistic entities in today's world. They don't knock on the doors of companies that have employees that are content with their pay and benefits. They solicit management heavy companies that support said style with substandard wages to the people doing the work.


Please explain why a union may petition workers at a company to unionize once a year, even if the workers at the company don't wish this to be so, however, laws created protect unions from being disbanded even when up to 90% of the workers at the company WANT the union to go away. How does this help workers?

That's like asking why murderers are on death row. They are there because they killed a person or 100. Unions primarily have footholds in companies that have an established history of employee abuses.

The employees at my plant have already laughed the teamsters, the UAW, and three other unions off the property this year. Last year the unions didn't bother because the employees and the division didn't make much in the way of earnings. This year they want in, the employees don't want them.

Treat your employees, your base, your lifeblood the way they should be treated and never worry about a union.


Please explain how this is helping the common man when unions practice the following:
1) Promotions based entirely on seniority, not on quality of output.
2) Workers cannot be fired for low output or bad output as long as they don't break any regulations, aka the extremely slow worker dilemna.
3) Workers often cannot be fired, even for reasons of theft, unless it is a documented third offense or worse.
4) Workers who perform well cannot receive bonuses unless everyone senior to them does as well, regardless of performance.
5) Unions can receive all sorts of tax breaks and benefits despite being a political organization that actively affiliates with a political party.
6) Unions can and do refuse membership to anyone who has ever crossed a picket line, often blackballing them from ever receiving a decent job. Real good there.
7) Unions can and do force companies to pay health insurance costs and other costs for workers that never even worked for the company.

It's an archaic way of doing things for sure, but to think that it was improvement above and beyond how things were before the union.

I detest union practices, I don't bemoan union existence in companies that aren't worth a damn anyway.

Cut your worthless and bloated management, as it is generally loaded with worthless "degree bearing" individuals, and pay the people that make the company work their due. In doing so you offer what the union can't and the union goes away.


The bottom line is unions have become greedy and bloated, and far worse than the corporate interests they seem to use as an example of who is bad in America today.

I agree, and not surprisingly. What you are forgetting, as if I haven't said it numerous times in this post, is that companies treat they're foundation like shit and reward cooler huggers with AC, long lunches, little actual responsibility, and a salary that can't be justified. At the same time they offer the people that do the building, the moving, the shipping and overall labor nothing more than a hot/cold workspace, tight and unforgiving schedules and policies, long term injuries due to repetitive motion, and crap pay.

Before the unions go away, companies will have to make the realization that a degree bearing individual sitting in a climate controlled office space, plugging away at numbers and dictating procedure ... holds less value than the guy that cleans the toilets.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Without the union, my grandfather No one has said unions were *never* necessary. As successful as I'm sure your grandfather and parents are, their experiences are very irrelevant to whether or not unions are necessary *now*.

Obviously what we need to settle this is an arm-wrestling contest between Tamral and Tsa`ah.

[Warriorbird]

The shitty move by a certain Western university towards my parents (who then got pretty much flat out given other jobs by the union, which is what kept my family together) was only thirteen years ago.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Obviously what we need to settle this is an arm-wrestling contest between Tamral and Tsa`ah.

No, I'm not going to make blanket statements and blind assertions.

I'm willing to accept that Unions don't even qualify as pivotal reasons for a company’s failure. Certainly they have a share in that stock, but they're not the only entities buying it up. Corporate failure is largely due to the corporation that fails.

Hoffa joining the GOP or any ranking union official moving across political lines really means jack. They're moving parties, not stances. They aren't cleaning up their acts; they're just going with the most beneficial path.

This isn't a sign of the times, it's not an omen, it's not even anything significant.

The only thing it really means is that the GOP was better able to line some pockets for votes. Dems, GOP ... just different ways of spelling crooks. Though there are a few in either party that probably aren't cashing in, but those few are a rarity.

[Doyle Hargraves]

How about that newspaper article Tamral?

Unions and stuff.