Brothers In Arms - An Iraqi Soldier Story

[Gan]

An excellent story in US News. Offers and interesting perspective if you take in all 4 pages worth. (Too much to post all here, so here's the link:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/050627/27iraq.htm
____________________________________


In Fallujah, U.s. Marine advisers are trying to develop a few good men
By Julian E. Barnes

FALLUJAH, IRAQ--For two nights in a row, shadowy gunmen took a few potshots at the Iraqi soldiers that 1st Lt. Khalid Abdul Rahman Muhamad sent on patrol through Fallujah's Jolan district. That's hardly an uncommon occurrence, and typically, Muhamad would just report the incidents to U.S. marines tasked with securing the northwest section of this restive city. But this time, for the first time, Muhamad turned to Marine Corps Maj. Larry Huggins and offered his own plan to rout out the insurgents with a nighttime raid.

... More to follow if you click on the link.

[Atlanteax]

Some of the mentions...

Such as Iraqi soldiers wandering off from base to go shopping in the market...

... explains why there is such a large number of Iraqi army/police casualities... they're just simply not being meticulously careful/pragmatic.

[Gan]

Its disappointing that more on these boards are willing to discuss the sensationalist topics regarding Iraq but not discuss about whats actually going on over there with regards to our efforts.

This is a quick rant in that the story I linked was a long one, requiring a little effort to read, but yet informative and relative to some of the discussion as to what the US goals were in Iraq. I posted it last night in hopes of seeing some enlightened discussion and hopefully some altered opinions on whats really happening by someone who's actually going through it instead of armcharing controversy by spinning their own story of whats happening but from a 4,000 mile away perspective. Amazing, and yet disappointing, no one else had any thoughts to add. I guess I should have given it some political scandalous title and included some far left or right wing conspiracy theories as well.

I'm going to take a few and highlight some of the areas that I thought were the most interesting. I apologize for the long post, but in absence of anyone else posting, I'm going to give my thoughts on this more educational than sensational article.

"The past four months, the Marine advisers in Fallujah acknowledge, have been a slow crawl. Even the simple things--like getting Iraqis to pay attention on guard duty or refrain from shopping while on patrol--have been difficult to accomplish. So Muhamad's initiative was regarded as something of a breakthrough; it was the first time that one of the company leaders had identified a problem and proposed a solution."

It seems we do have some goals in that we're not just policing but training the Iraqi forces and allowing them time to stand on their own two feet.

"All Army recruits, including the Fallujah force, go through a basic six-week training course. The military claims it has so far trained and equipped 169,000 soldiers with a goal of having a 240,000-man Army a year from now. But "trained" is a relative term in Iraq. The marines in Fallujah say the "trained" recruits are very raw. Indeed, they run them through another two weeks of training in Fallujah before putting them on the street."

8 weeks of training to handle insurgents that run at them with bombs strapped to their chests, or in their cars... or just emptying a mag of ammo out of their AK-47 from a rooftop indescriminately.

"By western standards, many of the raw Iraqi recruits are slackers. But there is a cultural difference at play. In the Middle East, activity stops during the hottest part of the day. And at midnight, when the primary Marine Corps shift is heading to bed, the Iraqi command posts are frequently abuzz with activity. Staff Sgt. Tom McCarty, one of the American advisers, says it is hard for many of the marines to grasp that there is an Iraqi way of doing things. Some Iraqi habits, McCarty says, should be discouraged, even if they cannot be stopped--like slipping away from post to shop at the market. But in some cases, McCarty says, the marines could learn something from the Iraqis. Though marines refuse to allow any civilians to walk past a foot patrol, the Iraqi Intervention Force patrols refuse to stop women or children. "In some ways I think the IIF have the right idea," McCarty says. "You want to interfere with the local populace as little as possible." Proximity has earned the Iraqi troops some measure of respect: "These guys are about the bravest guys around," McCarty says as he walks on patrol with the jundi ."

"McCarty says the marines would be better off just giving the Iraqi military formal control of Fallujah. But Marine officers like Huggins and Col. Mark Gurganus, who oversees military operations around Fallujah, disagree. The Iraqis need more skills before control is handed over to them. Move too fast, they say, and that will set up the Iraqis for failure."

"Fallujah is very much still a scarred city trying to rebuild after last November's intense battle between U.S. forces and Sunni insurgents. While the bulk of the Iraqi Army's efforts go into conducting patrols and manning checkpoints, there is the occasional modest humanitarian relief mission. As about 250 schoolgirls looked on last week, the jundi unloaded supplies from the back of a Marine humvee including Beanie Babies, jump-ropes, notebooks, and pens into a classroom for the teachers to distribute. Of course, nothing in Iraq is simple: The next day, parents complained that the teachers didn't distribute the supplies and instead took them home. "You can't make this stuff up," says Huggins. "I'd like to think the semester is coming to an end and the teachers decided to save it for the fall, but I am not so naive."

""Tomorrow tomorrow." Despite failing to net any insurgents, Muhamad's operation is considered an important, but small, success. "This is not going to happen immediately," Capt. Tim Eichhorn, Huggins's deputy, said the morning after the raid. "As the Iraqis say, it will be 'tomorrow tomorrow.' " McCarty, listening in, agrees. "If the Iraqis say 'tomorrow tomorrow' it could be days, or it could be years," McCarty says. "And if we are going to get it right, we are going to have to stay for years." Hatab, the Iraqi battalion executive officer, has a very precise answer for when "tomorrow tomorrow" will come, and the American advisers will no longer be needed. "Five years," he says in English. "Five years, police and Army good."

"Iraqi Army officers may have greater patience for a large U.S. presence than the Iraqi people--or the American public. But the Iraqi Army may have to re-evaluate its timeline. For now, though, the Iraqi troops have the help, and the training wheels remain in place."


These are just some excerpts of the story depicting how the military is working with training and developing the Iraqi forces. The very last 2 paragraphs help shed light on why I dont think we should withdraw our troops immediately. And eventually, when the forces get trained, the leadership becomes established, the radical clerics are held responsible for the violence they incite, and the insurgents caught and punished... then you'll see more stories of a grateful Iraqi community. But since that's not 'sensational' news, I doubt it will get alot of coverage. Especially when the attention span of the average 'sensationalist' American wont last that long.

[CrystalTears]

From what you posted, the article seems very interesting. I'll try to get into it later on in the day when the calls slow down again. Thank you for the link.

It wasn't an article attacking the government, so it wasn't worthy of discussing, apparently. They keep on asking for good things that the government or this war has provided, and when it does, there is very little to no commentary. Rather disheartening and makes people not want to find the good and positive news when only the nasty and horrible gets the attention.

[Nieninque]

I think its a bit fair to say it hasnt been discussed when it has only been posted here for a few hours.
This time of day is generally very quiet and I would expect that more posts will appear when most of those on the wrong side of the pond ( :duck: ) start posting.

I also believe that anyone who thinks that there has been no good that has come out of the war is an eejit. I am against the war, but recognise that some of the things that have changed are for the better

It was posted yesterday at like 530pm nein

[CrystalTears]

Well...10:30 pm EST, so 7:30 for the west coasters. Either way, there is usually more activity at night so I can see why he was concerned for the absense of commentary.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Ganalon
Its disappointing that more on these boards are willing to discuss the sensationalist topics regarding Iraq but not discuss about whats actually going on over there with regards to our efforts.



I spent 13 months in Iraq and Kuwait.


I dont feel that the article is

whats actually going on over there with regards to our efforts

and I feel there is enough threads about it

[DeV]

I've read the article previously after hearing about some of the things Atlanteax mentioned in his post going on among the trainees. I did some research and came across that one.

Like Nien, I may oppose the war, but it's obvious there are things being accomplished over there that we may not be aware of or hear about as often as the negative aspects. I also understand that the troops definitely shouldn't be pulled out right away, that would be ludicris, but as I speculated on in a previous post, not only will the training make it successful transition, more importantly the newly elected government of Iraq will need to step it up and provide solid leadership so their people have more than just a strong military (Iraq's) presence to look forward to.

It will take time and the efforts of the soldiers and those being trained are applauded. However, it's a huge undertaking and there are so many negatives that the positive aspects are easily outshined on an even daily basis. I know it's sad, but true.

Thanks for posting the article. It certainly sheds light onto some of the progress being made.

[Gan]

Originally posted by theotherjohn

Originally posted by Ganalon
Its disappointing that more on these boards are willing to discuss the sensationalist topics regarding Iraq but not discuss about whats actually going on over there with regards to our efforts.



I spent 13 months in Iraq and Kuwait.


I dont feel that the article is

whats actually going on over there with regards to our efforts

and I feel there is enough threads about it

And what exactly was your role in your deployment? Training of Iraqi forces? Did you have any public exposure?

Or did you remain on base in a support role?

Instead of just disagreeing, shed some light on what you think is going on if this story isnt representative of whats really happening, or are you just going to be a silent naysayer that does not offer any shed of support to the claims you're making?

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Ganalon

And what exactly was your role in your deployment? Training of Iraqi forces? Did you have any public exposure?

are you just going to be a silent naysayer that does not offer any shed of support to the claims you're making?

what the fuck have you done?

oh yeah that is right read internet

like I said there are enough threads about the fucking useless iraq war no one is going to contribute to your thread just because you feel it is important

in closing

fuck you

[Gan]

Originally posted by theotherjohn

Originally posted by Ganalon

And what exactly was your role in your deployment? Training of Iraqi forces? Did you have any public exposure?

are you just going to be a silent naysayer that does not offer any shed of support to the claims you're making?

what the fuck have you done?

oh yeah that is right read internet

like I said there are enough threads about the fucking useless iraq war no one is going to contribute to your thread just because you feel it is important

in closing

fuck you

I thought you had nothing to contribute, thanks for sharing your opinions asshole.

:lol:

Edited to add:

You know, its idiots like you that give those soldiers who do try to make a difference a bad name. No wonder the stigma of "I'm a solder and you dont know shit because you're not one" gets stuck on our soldiers. Congratulations, you're a trend setter.

I asked you to offer up some knowledge since you were so quick to refute what was related in the story, and you come back with your witty retort. Fuck you is the best you can do? :lol:

Thanks for insulting the intelligence of those who post here as well as the efforts of the other soldiers who are representing us in Iraq. I bet you sleep better at night knowing you're so well seated in your knowledge of 'whats really happening over there'.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Edited on 6-23-2005 by Ganalon]

He was asking questions TOJ, instead of saying fuck you why not answer them?

[Gan]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Well...10:30 pm EST, so 7:30 for the west coasters. Either way, there is usually more activity at night so I can see why he was concerned for the absense of commentary.

I'm really not concerned that nobody is interested in "my" thread. :lol:

What I'm trying to do is post some information about our efforts in Iraq that arent centered around controversy, conspiracies, or the like. A different viewpoint if you will. Thats all. And expressing my disappointment that there's not the same passion in this type of discussion as there is in the more sensational viewpoints of this topic that draw attention.

[Edited on 6-23-2005 by Ganalon]

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Dave
He was asking questions TOJ, instead of saying fuck you why not answer them?

because I dont like him

[Gan]

boo fucking hooo


put up or shut up

[CrystalTears]

Don't even bother. He's just cranky. He's rather be Negative Nancy than be positive about anything. :shrug:

[Gan]

If he cant contribute then he needs to stop trolling threads in order to boost his post count and see his thoughts in print.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Ganalon
boo fucking hooo


put up or shut up

ok fucker

you travel to Iraq validate the story then we can share our experiences


put up or shut up.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Ganalon
If he cant contribute then he needs to stop trolling threads in order to boost his post count and see his thoughts in print.


and why did you post oh yeah to see your thoughts in print

so follow your own advice


edit to add look at my Registered date. I really dont care about post count and if I cared about a custom title I would have sent money to Kranar and purchased one

[Edited on 6-23-2005 by theotherjohn]

[Gan]

Dear TOJ,

I posted an article on a these boards to illicit discussion. You refuted the article I posted but yet did not offer any validation to your refute. You still refuse to offer any valid reasons why you disagree.

Its duly noted that you disagree. Even though you wont discuss why. Its probably because you have no proof, but yet I wont pry into your personal experiences if you wish not to divulge them.

If I had a job or duty to be in Iraq, I would be. As it is, I'm a civillian and not a soldier. So I'm doing my damndest to support soldiers over there, even assholes like you, and will continue to do so no matter how strong the effort of assholes like you try to sway my opinion.

So either contribute to this thread or shut the fuck up. I'm done arguing with your empty thoughts until you can post something more substantive on the topic.

in closing

fuck you

[Atlanteax]

Cat fight!!! :lol:

[DeV]

Originally posted by Ganalon
Its probably because you have no proof, but yet I wont pry into your personal experiences if you wish not to divulge them.
Is actually being in Iraq not proof enough? What proof I have no idea... but, I'm just saying.

There are still descrepencies surrounding the actual number of Iraqi's that have been trained so far from what I've read. The figures may or may not be off.

The job done makes a difference, which is why he was asking.
There are many people who do not see the outside of a base except to drive to the next one.

[Back]

Its a good story and good news. It means we are that much closer to leaving.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Dave
The job done makes a difference, which is why he was asking.
There are many people who do not see the outside of a base except to drive to the next one.

Just seems fitting again:


Originally posted by Wezas
I R ARMY. I R BETTER THEN U. U R NOT KNOW PAIN. U JOIN ARMY. I R SAY "JOIN" WHEN NOT KNOW ANSWER.

[Gelston]

As of now, today is post in the wrong thread day.

Oh, ok.

[Stanley Burrell]

Trash on the poster above you.

You are a, filthy, disgusting hemorrhoid.

[Parkbandit]

Check out Ozark on Netflix. It's pretty decent.