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Suppressed Poet
05-11-2023, 08:40 PM
Bruen decision for the win.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/05/11/judge-rules-handgun-sales-allowed-18-year-olds/


A federal judge in Virginia has declared unconstitutional a set of laws and regulations that prohibit federally licensed firearms dealers from selling handguns to 18-to-20-year-olds, finding that the measures violated the Second Amendment.

“Because the statutes and regulations in question are not consistent with our Nation’s history and tradition, they, therefore, cannot stand,” U.S. District Judge Robert E. Payne, who sits in Richmond, concluded in a 71-page opinion.

Gun-control advocates say the decision, if allowed to stand, would significantly increase gun access for a population that research shows is more impulsive and responsible for a disproportionate number of fatal shootings. But attorneys on both sides of the case said they expected the Justice Department to appeal and request a stay, which would prevent Payne’s ruling from taking effect while higher courts weigh the case.

Elliott M. Harding, the attorney who argued to nullify the laws and regulations, said people under 21 years old are, for the moment, not allowed to purchase handguns from licensed dealers because a final order had not been entered. The judge set a May 18 deadline for attorneys to submit recommendations “for future proceedings in this matter.”

Although 18-to-20-year-olds previously could buy handguns in private sales — or have a parent purchase a weapon for them — the decision issued Wednesday would dismantle a legal framework that for decades has prevented licensed dealers from selling handguns “to teenagers,” said William T. Clark, an attorney with the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, which filed an amicus brief in the case calling for the laws at issue to be upheld.

“It’s a significant decision — we disagree with the outcome,” Clark said, adding that “there is compelling scientific evidence showing that teenagers are more impulsive and face unique elevated dangers from firearms.”

Attorneys in the case noted that 18-year-olds already were allowed to purchase some firearms such as shotguns and rifles — but not handguns sold by the nation’s nearly 53,000 licensed dealers, as tallied by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).

Payne, who was nominated to the bench by President George H.W. Bush, repeatedly cited the Supreme Court’s decision in New York State Rifle and Pistol Association v. Bruen, a ruling from the high court’s conservative majority that expanded the right to bear arms last year.

The plaintiff in the Virginia case, John Corey Fraser, was 20 years old when he attempted to buy a Glock 19x handgun from a federally licensed dealer in May 2022 and was turned away, according to the lawsuit he filed last year. He challenged the constitutionality of the Gun Control Act of 1968 and federal regulations from ATF that limit the sale of handguns to adults 21 years and older.

“We’re pleased the court ruled in favor of Mr. Fraser and the other named plaintiffs in such a well written and thorough decision,” Harding, the attorney for Fraser, said in an email. “Even though it ensures that future buyers can now purchase these firearms in the federal system, one that includes background checks and other requirements, we expect the defendants will appeal. Nevertheless, we remain optimistic that the decision will be affirmed in due course.”

An ATF spokesman said the agency “is unable to comment on litigation.” Justice Department officials declined to comment.

Attackers in some recent cases in which three or more people were shot have been under 21 years old, attorneys noted. An 18-year-old armed with a handgun in Philadelphia was charged last year in a shooting that left three people dead and 11 others wounded, according to authorities. A 19-year-old man was alleged to have live-streamed himself driving around Memphis while shooting at seemingly random targets, killing four people and injuring three others. He, too, was armed with a handgun, police said.

The massacres at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Tex., and at a grocery store in a predominantly Black neighborhood in Buffalo both were carried out last year by gunmen who were 18 years old, although they were armed with AR-15-style rifles.

“Not only are guns the leading cause of death for U.S. kids and teens, but research shows us that 18-to-20-year-olds commit gun homicides at triple the rate of adults 21 years and older,” said Janet Carter, senior director of issues and appeals at Everytown Law, which also filed an amicus brief supporting the age restrictions. “The federal law prohibiting federally licensed firearms dealers from selling handguns to individuals under the age of 21 is not just an essential tool for preventing gun violence, it is also entirely constitutional. The Court’s ruling will undoubtedly put lives at risk. It must be reversed.”

According to the Bruen opinion, written by Justice Clarence Thomas, “constitutional rights are enshrined with the scope they were understood to have when the people adopted them.” Payne wrote in his opinion Wednesday that although the age of adulthood was considered to be 21 at the time of the United States’ founding, the fact that people could join militias at 18 was more compelling.

“It is not at all clear that the age of majority at the Founding is the appropriate measure for measuring the reach of the Second Amendment,” he wrote.

Payne wrote that “no federal appellate court, much less the Supreme Court, has squarely determined that the Second Amendment’s rights vest at age 21” and that “to date, three circuits, the Fifth, Seventh, and Eleventh, have looked at this question head-on and have declined to answer it.”

The judge noted that federal district courts in Louisiana and Pennsylvania, in prior cases, had accepted the Justice Department’s position that 21 years was a valid threshold for handgun purchases from federally licensed dealers. He also noted that under current laws and regulations, 18- to 20-year-olds enjoy the right to vote, may enlist in the military, lose their legal protection from the death penalty and are allowed to possess handguns that their parents or guardians bought for them. Although federal law bans the sale of alcohol and tobacco to people under the age of 21, gun rights are in the Constitution while alcohol and tobacco consumption rights are not, Payne wrote.

“If the Court were to exclude 18-to-21-year-olds from the Second Amendment’s protection, it would impose limitations on the Second Amendment that do not exist with other constitutional guarantees,” the judge added. “It is firmly established that the First, Fourth, Fifth, Eight, and Fourteenth Amendments vest before the age of 21. … Like these other rights, the Second Amendment’s protections apply to 18-to-20-year-olds.

“By adopting the Second Amendment, the people constrained both the hands of Congress and the courts to infringe upon this right by denying ordinary law-abiding citizens of this age the full enjoyment of the right to keep and bear arms unless the restriction is supported by the Nation’s history. That is what Bruen tells us.”
Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr., who joined the Bruen majority, wrote in a concurring opinion last year: “Our decision, as noted, does not expand the categories of people who may lawfully possess a gun, and federal law generally forbids the possession of a handgun by a person who is under the age of 18 … and bars the sale of a handgun to anyone under the age of 21.”

Payne, in his opinion, wrote that the Bruen majority directs courts to conduct a historical analysis in weighing gun regulations.

“Justice Alito did not conduct a historical analysis,” Payne wrote. “Because that observation is in a concurrence and is a cursory comment at that, the Court notes it but gives it no analytical weight.”

~Rocktar~
05-11-2023, 08:53 PM
Good

kutter
05-12-2023, 01:32 AM
So if they cannot be trusted to own a pistol before they are 21, how can they be trusted to vote? I mean you can do a lot more damage with the ballot box than you can with a firearm. And if they cannot own a pistol, how come they can get drafted? Can a military member under 21 not shoot a pistol? Admittedly it was 1985 when I went through boot camp but I shot a pistol then, so what has changed?

Solkern
05-12-2023, 03:16 AM
I’m a little confused, to be honest. So if an 18-21 year old can’t be barred from buying a gun, because it violates the 2nd amendment…. Why can’t a 12 year old buy a gun? It says nothing in the 2nd amendment with an age restriction. So stopping a 12 year old from buying a gun also violates the 2nd amendment.

Parkbandit
05-12-2023, 08:41 AM
I’m a little confused, to be honest. So if an 18-21 year old can’t be barred from buying a gun, because it violates the 2nd amendment…. Why can’t a 12 year old buy a gun? It says nothing in the 2nd amendment with an age restriction. So stopping a 12 year old from buying a gun also violates the 2nd amendment.

Because when you reach 18, you are considered an adult.

A 12 year old, no matter how much people in your party wish, are not adults and cannot give consent.

Solkern
05-12-2023, 08:44 AM
Because when you reach 18, you are considered an adult.

A 12 year old, no matter how much people in your party wish, are not adults and cannot give consent.

So, where, in the second amendment does it mention, adulthood or anything. Because I’m pretty sure our forefathers probably had no issues with 12-year-olds, or 15 year olds having a gun.
So just by the second amendment, refusing to sell a gun to a 12 year old would be violating his second amendment constitutional right? Much like the 18-21.

Do minors, not have all of the constitutional rights as someone who’s over 18? Including the right to bear arms?

I just think it’s a tad hypocritical, to not ban someone from 18-21 from buying a gun, because of the second amendment constitutional right, but at the same time if you are under 18, the second amendment constitutional right doesn’t apply to you.

Edited: I don’t support selling of guns to minors, I’m just trying to have a discussion about the topic at hand.

Parkbandit
05-12-2023, 09:05 AM
So, where, in the second amendment does it mention, adulthood or anything. Because I’m pretty sure our forefathers probably had no issues with 12-year-olds, or 15 year olds having a gun.
So just by the second amendment, refusing to sell a gun to a 12 year old would be violating his second amendment constitutional right? Much like the 18-21.

Do minors, not have all of the constitutional rights as someone who’s over 18? Including the right to bear arms?

I just think it’s a tad hypocritical, to not ban someone from 18-21 from buying a gun, because of the second amendment constitutional right, but at the same time if you are under 18, the second amendment constitutional right doesn’t apply to you.

Edited: I don’t support selling of guns to minors, I’m just trying to have a discussion about the topic at hand.

Federal law states that a person of 18 is now considered an adult.

I'm not sure why you are so confused about this at all.

Solkern
05-12-2023, 09:13 AM
Federal law states that a person of 18 is now considered an adult.

I'm not sure why you are so confused about this at all.

I’m not sure why you can’t seem to understand what I’m saying.

Are you saying that because of a federal law, our constitutional rights don’t apply to minors?

But in case you aren’t, then it would be a violation of a minor’s constitutional right to bear arms, and I’m sure you’re against - law that removes anyone’s constitutional rights, right?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

No mention of being an adult, or a minor.

Shaps
05-12-2023, 09:19 AM
Used to be, there was no real age limit on it.

I was gifted a rifle when I was 10. Used to go hunting and such. Problem is, people are batshit crazy these days and for some reason they like shooting people.

Remember when people used to drive to school with a long rifle in the back window? I do. Odd how no one back then even thought about shooting up a school.

I'd say it's a mental health issue, a moral issue, a societal issue vs. a piece of equipment issue.

Suppressed Poet
05-12-2023, 09:20 AM
I’m a little confused, to be honest. So if an 18-21 year old can’t be barred from buying a gun, because it violates the 2nd amendment…. Why can’t a 12 year old buy a gun? It says nothing in the 2nd amendment with an age restriction. So stopping a 12 year old from buying a gun also violates the 2nd amendment.

That is an interesting take on that for sure, but not the issue at hand.

18 is the the legal age of an adult in this country. We do not restrict an adult from exercising their constitutional rights by a later age of adulthood.

As to your comment about minors, no they are not afforded the full scope of constitutional rights. Take for example the 14th and 19th amendments that voting is not to be restricted by race or sex. Do we let 12 year old black girls vote in this country? No we do not as they are not afforded all the rights (and more importantly responsibilities) of an adult.

Solkern
05-12-2023, 09:26 AM
That is an interesting take on that for sure, but not the issue at hand.

18 is the the legal age of an adult in this country. We do not restrict an adult from exercising their constitutional rights by a later age of adulthood.

As to your comment about minors, no they are not afforded the full scope of constitutional rights. Take for example the 14th and 19th amendments that voting is not to be restricted by race or sex. Do we let 12 year old black girls vote in this country? No we do not as they are not afforded all the rights (and more importantly responsibilities) of an adult.

That’s for clarifying that! I do think it is a little bullshit that we can decide what constitutional rights in minor can have an cannot have, but I can also see the reasoning why we do it as well.

Shaps
05-12-2023, 09:26 AM
Also, I absolutely hate the arbitrary ages applied to everything.

I believe if you are 18, which is the legal voting age, then you should be granted all the rights of an adult.

18: Vote, Serve in Military, Buy a weapon, Drink, Drive, Pay Taxes, Be sentenced to prison as an adult, etc.

Why we have 18, then 21, then 25 for different things is asinine.

In a modern conversation though... apparently 10 year old's can decide to cut their nuts off and sew up their vaginas.

So don't expect me to figure out the lunacy of everything going on these days, with logic like the above going on.

drumpel
05-12-2023, 09:31 AM
Used to be, there was no real age limit on it.

I was gifted a rifle when I was 10. Used to go hunting and such. Problem is, people are batshit crazy these days and for some reason they like shooting people.

Remember when people used to drive to school with a long rifle in the back window? I do. Odd how no one back then even thought about shooting up a school.

I'd say it's a mental health issue, a moral issue, a societal issue vs. a piece of equipment issue.

I've been hunting since I was about 8. I used to go out squirrel and rabbit hunting, used a 4-10 shotgun. My dad taught me how to hold, shoot, clean and all the dos/don'ts with a gun. When I wanted to go deer hunting when I was older it was required by WI state law that you had to go through hunter's safety before you could be licensed to go deer hunting. I was so bored because I already knew and understand gun safety.

I think it's just a blatant disregard for others that stems from most shootings. I guess you could call that a mental health issue.

Solkern
05-12-2023, 09:38 AM
I've been hunting since I was about 8. I used to go out squirrel and rabbit hunting, used a 4-10 shotgun. My dad taught me how to hold, shoot, clean and all the dos/don'ts with a gun. When I wanted to go deer hunting when I was older it was required by WI state law that you had to go through hunter's safety before you could be licensed to go deer hunting. I was so bored because I already knew and understand gun safety.

I think it's just a blatant disregard for others that stems from most shootings. I guess you could call that a mental health issue.

I don’t think it’s really a mental health issue in that sense, we’ve always had mental health issues in this country, the real question is what has changed to cause people to go out and kill others?
I mean, it could be the disregard for others, but is that it?

Shaps
05-12-2023, 09:39 AM
I've been hunting since I was about 8. I used to go out squirrel and rabbit hunting, used a 4-10 shotgun. My dad taught me how to hold, shoot, clean and all the dos/don'ts with a gun. When I wanted to go deer hunting when I was older it was required by WI state law that you had to go through hunter's safety before you could be licensed to go deer hunting. I was so bored because I already knew and understand gun safety.

I think it's just a blatant disregard for others that stems from most shootings. I guess you could call that a mental health issue.

Ya, I enjoyed hunting as a child/teen... Through life experiences I no longer do it personally, but support it for others.

As I said, it's just not mental health - it's all of it compounding to create chaos.

I'll give an example, not related to guns per se...

The Mafia = Rules for criminals = Enforcement of their own = Harm the "public" and you get dealt with... Even though yes, they were criminals - there was a set of understood rules between their own and the Police. If they got out of line, the hammer was dropped by the Authorities.

Current Criminals = No rules = No self enforcement = Utter chaos supported by the lax legal system/enforcement by authorities. But because there is no one in the criminal world (ie. Mafia) to make them answer for their destruction of the public at large, it just continues.


Another rough example: It's the phenomenon of - if a woman hits a man - they don't think they'll get hit back... so they keep hitting them. Criminals now know they will not get "hit back" with the current enforcement of the laws in many places.... so they keep on doing it.

Elanthil
05-12-2023, 10:18 AM
Personally, I think it's violence culture in America that is causing people to be desensitized to shooting other people.

We LOVE violent movies and tv and rap culture today is all about crime and killing, not like in the 80s and 90s when Hip Hop was mostly (MOSTLY) about having a good time or even smoking a little weed.

I think perhaps its time we institute mandatory firearm safety classes for 5th graders (are you smarter than a fifth grader?), with a section on how shooting someone looks/feels...have them shoot a side of beef a few times with different caliber guns so they can SEE the damage they do.

Anyone convicted of a gun crime under 18 should be forced to go to a meat processing plant and take a tour of the kill room in operation and be sentenced to counseling until they are 21.

But, thats just my off the top of the head thoughts. Im sure some of you have ideas we can kick around too.

Parkbandit
05-12-2023, 10:29 AM
I’m not sure why you can’t seem to understand what I’m saying.

Are you saying that because of a federal law, our constitutional rights don’t apply to minors?

But in case you aren’t, then it would be a violation of a minor’s constitutional right to bear arms, and I’m sure you’re against - law that removes anyone’s constitutional rights, right?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

No mention of being an adult, or a minor.


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