Subpoeanaing Terri Schiavo

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
So now she's in a state of agony and discomfort? I thought she was a veggie and couldn't feel or comprehend anything with minimal awareness.

CT your saying it is not right to kill her? The only reason she is alive <if you can call that living> is because a machine is KEEPING her alive. So in essence we are forcing her body to be alive when it can't support itself at all.

Pulling the plug and letting her body fade away is a sad way to die, I would rather if it were me to be given a shot and put down like they do animals, jesus animals are put down more humanely then this poor woman.

[Nakiro]

No she's vegetative. But if she weren't, she'd probably want to die.

You are the guys saying she is aware. I'm saying that if she was aware, she'd want to be dead.

And way to dodge the question.

[HarmNone]

No, she is not in agony and discomfort. She is unable to feel pain, since the part of the brain that receives afferent (incoming) pain signals is not functioning. The pain and agony is reserved for those who must care for her, for her family, and for her friends.

[DeV]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
So now she's in a state of agony and discomfort?
Only to the missinformed.


I thought she was a veggie and couldn't feel or comprehend anything with minimal awareness.I agree.

[Brattt8525]

Dev I am having a hard time concentrating on your posts with that avatar!

[DeV]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
Dev I am having a hard time concentrating on your posts with that avatar! Good. :P

[CrystalTears]

Dodge what question? The one that asks if I would really want to "live" like that? Wouldn't it be obvious that I wouldn't care what state my body was in if I was alive with the way I've been adamant about keeping Terri alive?

You can call me names, say I'm full of shit because I'm not in that state, that I wouldn't know how I would feel. Yeah? Well neither would anyone else, so no one can say with any amount of certainty what they would do in that situation.

You wouldn't know if perhaps with the limited to nil brain ability she has a 2-second flash of comprehension, she sees her family, feels herself breathe, sees light. Perhaps to her it's a glimmer of hope for those 2 seconds of each day that she's still part of this world. That she's still part of her family's life. That she's still alive, no matter how worn down her body is. Right now, I would want to continue living and feeling that, even 1 second a day, until my heart dies.

For those that are convinced that she sees nothing, feels nothing... what is the big deal of keeping her alive if someone is willing to take responsibility for it and care for her? If all that is keeping her alive is FOOD AND WATER and a nurse to move her around, if her family is that convinced to keep her that way with a sense of hope, what does it matter? Seriously? As long as it doesn't dip into people's precious tax dollars and they were able to do it all on her own, why kill her? Why?

Why not kill all the elderly who are in the same state? The children in incubators and family told they will never breathe on their own? Why? Because there is hope and you can't take that away with all the tests in the world. Not until she passes on or lifts her head, says with her own mouth "set me free" would I take the life away from any living thing.

This topic is too much for me to bear because it tears into my soul that people would criticize life and my belief in it this way. I think I'm done with posting in this thread.

[Brattt8525]

Who has been paying this medical bill all of these years anyway?

[Kyra]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Why not kill all the elderly who are in the same state?

Honey I worked with those elderely people for over a decade & a large percentage of them WISH & PRAY for someone to put them out of their misery..

Don't forget the Alzheimers patients, the beginning stage ones who pray to die before they become drooling vegetables eating their own feces(they get to see it first hand from other patients who ARE that way)...what a life to look forward to, eh?

A good percentage of the elderly KNOW they have lived their lives & they are ready to meet their maker...they would just prefer it be without the pain & suffering & indignity of being "cared for" by strangers during the wait.

So many of the elderly patients are all FOR Keverokian & his methods...they pray for such a person to show up & save them.

Personally I think a few years working with patients in long term care would change alot of peoples opinions. Spend a few years taking care of someone who asks every day "Why can't I die? I don't want to live like this?"(and you can SEE why they wouldn't want to!)

Spend time taking care of a lady who the Dr knew was going to die in a highly painful way & yet no one wants to over medicate her so they let her writhe in agony on her way out when the time came(her intestines ruptured)..listen to her cry to go to the hospital & no one will take her. It changes perspective on what is "humane" & "cruel"...

<shrug>

K.

[Back]

I just find it interesting that some who claim to value life so much have no problem with wars.

[Ilvane]

I'm at the point where it's so horrifying to think about this happening in my family, I'm making out a living will.

I don't want my family to have any question I wouldn't want to live for 15 years in a persistant vegetative state, feeding tube or not.

I understand her parents wanting her to be alive, but at what point to you keep going, is it for her, or for her parents to keep her alive?

They made some comments today that Judge Greer had a crusade to kill their daughter. So, somehow he wants her dead?

Hm, just don't go there.

-A

[Farquar]

I didn't want to bring up politics, but I couldn't help but laugh when Bushie made a big show of coming back to D.C. from his latest vacation to sign the Schiavo Bill. An excerpt from a blog sums up my thoughts:

(from http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/)

By now most people who read liberal blogs are aware that George W. Bush signed a law in Texas that expressly gave hospitals the right to remove life support if the patient could not pay and there was no hope of revival, regardless of the patient's family's wishes. It is called the Texas Futile Care Law. Under this law, a baby was removed from life support against his mother's wishes in Texas just this week. A 68 year old man was given a temporary reprieve by the Texas courts just yesterday.

Those of us who read liberal blogs are also aware that Republicans have voted en masse to pull the plug (no pun intended) on medicaid funding that pays for the kind of care that someone like Terry Schiavo and many others who are not so severely brain damaged need all across this country.

Those of us who read liberal blogs also understand that that the tort reform that is being contemplated by the Republican congress would preclude malpractice claims like that which has paid for Terry Schiavo's care thus far.

Those of us who read liberal blogs are aware that the bankruptcy bill will make it even more difficult for families who suffer a catastrophic illness like Terry Schiavo's because they will not be able to declare chapter 7 bankruptcy and get a fresh start when the gargantuan medical bills become overwhelming.

And those of us who read liberal blogs also know that this grandstanding by the congress is a purely political move designed to appease the religious right and that the legal maneuverings being employed would be anathema to any true small government conservative.

Those who don't read liberal blogs, on the other hand, are seeing a spectacle on television in which the news anchors repeatedly say that the congress is "stepping in to save Terry Schiavo" mimicking the unctuous words of Tom Delay as they grovel and leer at the family and nod sympathetically at the sanctimonious phonies who are using this issue for their political gain.

[Jazuela]

To whoever was asking about who's footing the bill:

Medicare is footing a large portion of it.

I haven't posted on this subject because I wasn't very informed about it. I've been catching up, and reading, and reading some more..

Regardless of who caused her heart to stop (since some say it was the husband), regardless of who is paying the bills, regardless of who wants her alive...

Terri is dead. She is a corpse functioning only because modern technology is forcing her to function. And she isn't even really functioning. As far as I'm concerned, any and every religion should be MORTIFIED by Terri's current existence, and wish for this ghoulish nightmare to end.

Animating the dead is a SIN according to most Judeo-Christian laws. And that is exactly what the people trying to keep her alive are promoting.

Terri is dead. Her family needs to come to terms with this and mourn their losses. They can't do that as long as they continue to delude themselves into believing that Terri's brain might suddenly function again.

[peam]

I liked this one..
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/050323/bagley.gif

[Nakiro]

Oh yes, and liberals who support Terri's right to die (which is not her confirmed personal will) seek to prevent the execution of convicted serial murders.

There are double standards on both sides.

[AnticorRifling]

I say pull the plug. I could say alot more and go alot deeper but I think pull the plug sums it up.

[Jazuela]

Originally posted by Nakiro
Oh yes, and liberals who support Terri's right to die (which is not her confirmed personal will) seek to prevent the execution of convicted serial murders.

There are double standards on both sides.

I'm not sure if I'd call myself a liberal, since in a lot of things I'm extremely conservative. But I'm pro-choice, pro-euthenasia, and pro-capital punishment.

Basically I guess you could say that I'm pro death. <chuckle> KILL THEM ALL!

All kidding aside, I think it's the libertarians who have the biggest issues with the death penalty. Not liberal democrats, if that's what you were getting at.

[Lorrayne]

I don't know the right answer for Terri Schiavo, her husband and her family. I'm not close to their situation so offering my opinion would be futile.

However, I do hope one positive thing that comes out of this situation is that it has illustrated how important it is for each of us to have a living will AND healthcare power of attorney -- and if you don't have them, that you quickly obtain them.

[Back]

Originally posted by Jazuela

Originally posted by Nakiro
Oh yes, and liberals who support Terri's right to die (which is not her confirmed personal will) seek to prevent the execution of convicted serial murders.

There are double standards on both sides.

I'm not sure if I'd call myself a liberal, since in a lot of things I'm extremely conservative. But I'm pro-choice, pro-euthenasia, and pro-capital punishment.

Basically I guess you could say that I'm pro death. <chuckle> KILL THEM ALL!

All kidding aside, I think it's the libertarians who have the biggest issues with the death penalty. Not liberal democrats, if that's what you were getting at.

You raise a good point. Do more Pro-Choice feel Terri should be allowed to die and Pro-Life think she should be allowed to live? Keyword: Allowed. Since she can’t make that decision.

[Jazuela]

I don't think it's a matter of allowing her to live OR die. She's already dead. The woman is DEAD. As in - no longer alive. As in - a corpse with a few tubes stuck in various orifices, that force machines to make noises.

She is a corpse. The family needs to bury her. Any other action taken is sickening, as far as I'm concerned.

[Ravenstorm]

Some interesting information in this article (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-03-24-schiavo-money-cover_x.htm).

Raven

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
So now she's in a state of agony and discomfort? I thought she was a veggie and couldn't feel or comprehend anything with minimal awareness.

I understand what you are trying to say, CT, but I guess this is one situation that has more camps than a boy scout troop.

Personally, I believe her to be brain-dead. That nothing is going on, and I really don't get the point of spending millions more to keep her body functioning for untold years to come.

Now, if she was feeling, gawd almighty the agony that woman is in, with NO HOPE of recovery. IF she could feel, then what her body is going through would be nothing short of torture. Never ending torture.

I hate to be callous, but I really don't see the point of keeping that tube in. The cost of her care over the next few decades is ..... here it comes...... a waste.

Millions upon millions. If I were her husband/parents I would say unplug her and since you were so willing to spend that kind of money on a woman with NO future, instead, tally up what it would have cost to keep her alive for 4 more decades and donate that to children's hospitals for kids whose parents are going bankrupt each day to pay medical bills for functioning kids that may have a future but aren't getting all the care they need.

Newborns we fight for, have a future. Old people should have the choice, if they are functioning, to live or die. Dr. K was not an evil man.

If my father ended up talking to me, and said hon.... find me something that when I'm ready... I can just take.... I would do it.

[Warriorbird]

Eh. I've always been a pro death penalty liberal. Most aren't, though.

[JadeScarlet]

This case never should have gone so far. There is a load of heresay being promoted by her parents who want her to live. There is a load of heresay being promoted by her husband also. In courts, the judge isn't going to listen to the whole he said/she said babble. They will listen to the opinions of doctors hired by sides of the families as well as independent doctors and make the decision based on the findings of those doctors and the observations of friends and family.

Her parents can say what they want about Schiavo to the press, but obviously they were never able to back it up in court, or the judge's decision might have been different.

Now congress is grandstanding the whole issue, using testimony from doctors who never actually examined her but only saw videotapes that say the new evidence must be presented. I'm disgusted by how far it has gone. Its an issue that should have been dealt with through family courts year ago. It never should have made it to congress, and it never should have even made it as far as the national news. The president has no right to step in on someone's family and make a decision. He should get on with destroying social security and the environment and leave Terri Schiavo's family to settle the matter through local courts (which has already been done 19 times).

Personally, if someone in my family became incapacitated and incapable of making their own decisions and left no living will, personally I think I would choose to keep them alive, but only on the grounds that they receive therapy. I would only allow them to die if I felt that there was no hope left for their recovery.

The Schindlers as I have already stated will say what they want to the press, but they can't prove anything to a judge, and Terri Schiavo's husband is doing what he believes is the right thing. Regardless of whether it is the Christian thing to do, or the humane thing to do, the moral thing to do, it is his legal right to make that decision.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
I just find it interesting that some who claim to value life so much have no problem with wars.

Who doesn't have a problem with a war? I don't think you will find many people posting here that have "no problem with wars" Wars are horrific and catastrophic and used as a last resort.

This isn't about Iraq or facism.. this is about a fight between a husband and the parents of a disabled individual. Let's try and concentrate on that instead of touting your big anti-war stance.

I could also state that I find it interesting that someone who is against all wars would not be siding on the side of saving this lady's life.

I could also state that I find it interesting that someone who is all for the environment would be driving around in a car, taking flights to get places and living in a house that uses fossil fuels.

But I won't.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Eh. I've always been a pro death penalty liberal. Most aren't, though.

You are so ripe for transformation.

MUUUAAHAAAA

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Eh. I've always been a pro death penalty liberal. Most aren't, though.

I don't know about that, Warriorbird. A good number of my liberal friends are for the death penalty in selected cases, as am I.

[DeV]

I consider my views right down the middle. A conservative when it comes to some things and a liberal when it comes to others and I'm pro-choice and pro-death penalty, in certain cases.


Positive Pillow Pressure

[Back]

Originally posted by DeV
Positive Pillow Pressure

:?:

[DeV]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by DeV
Positive Pillow Pressure

:?: A more gentler form of euthanasia involving the use of a pillow as the method of terminating life.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Ilvane
This is a December 2003 report written by Dr. Jay Wolfson. He's a doctor and a lawyer who was appointed as a guardian for Schiavo in October 2003 by Florida Governor Jeb Bush. NPR, which aired an interview with Dr. Wolfson yesterday, has posted a PDF version on its site.(http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4544756)

It's 40 pages long, but interesting to read.

Some key portions:

* [The Guardian concludes] that all of the appropriate and proper elements of the law have been followed and met. The law has done its job well. The courts [which supported the decision to suspend feeding] have carefully and diligently adhered to the prescribed civil processes and evidentiary guidelines, and have painfully and diligently applied the required tests in a reasonable, conscientious and professional manner.

* Highly competent, scientifically based physicians using recognized measures and standards have deduced, within a high degree of medical certainty, that Theresa is in a persistent vegetative state. This evidence is compelling.

* Theresa's neurological tests and CT scans indicate objective measures of the persistent vegetative state.

* Individuals have come forward indicating that there are therapies and treatments and interventions that can literally re-grow Theresa's functional, cerebral cortex brain tissue [which has shrunken], restoring part of all of her functions. There is no scientifically valid, medically recognized evidence that this has been done or is possible, even in rats, according to the president of the American Society for Neuro-Transplantation.

* [The Guardian] concludes from the medical records and consultations with medical experts that the scope and weight of the medical information within the file concerning Theresa Schiavo consists of competent well-document information that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no likelihood of improvement.

Wolfson describes the history of the case, noting that her husband Michael did try for years to find therapies and treatments for Schiavo before concluding there were no possibilities. He also notes that the evidence presented by two neurologists chosen by Michael Schiavo and a neurologist picked by the Florida court in charge of the case was "clear and convincing in support of Theresa being in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of improvement." The evidence presented by physicians chosen by Schiavo's parents, according to Wolfson, "was substantially anecdotal, and was reasonably deemed to be not clear and convincing."

In this report, Wolfson also notes he spent much time with Schiavo and "was not able to independently determine that there were consistent, repetitive, intentional, reproducible interactive and aware activities."

Remember, Wolfson was selected by Jeb Bush to review the case. Now, who's more credible: Wolfson or Tom DeLay?

-A

Wolfson was appointed by the courts not by Jeb Bush.

Wolfson is the Director of the Florida Health Information Centre at the University of South Florida. The University is intimately connected to the Hospice of the South Florida Coast which is the corporate owner of the hospice that Terry is being starved in. Hospice = place to die.

The University of South Florida also offers courses on the Right to Die.

Wolfson had already stated his objection publicly to Terry's law before being appointed Guardian. He never should have been appointed.

Wolfson = not objective

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Suggestion-Bias.pdf

Mayo Clinic, the best in the world, Neurologists Dr. William Cheshire and Dr. Stevens have stated she is not in a persistent vegetative state.

[Warriorbird]

They stated it...from a videotape. They're curiously not tesifying.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
They stated it...from a videotape. They're curiously not tesifying.

They haven't seen her because asshole husband hasn't allowed them to. Doctors testify in courts all the time who haven't seen the victim.

Mayo Clinic = Best in the World

[Prestius]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Warriorbird
They stated it...from a videotape. They're curiously not tesifying.

They haven't seen her because asshole husband hasn't allowed them to. Doctors testify in courts all the time who haven't seen the victim.

Mayo Clinic = Best in the World



"Dr. William Cheshire was asked by the Florida Department of Children and Families to share his expertise related to potentially vulnerable adults. As part of this commitment, he was asked to render his professional opinion for the state of Florida in the case of Terri Schiavo. He observed the patient at her bedside and conducted a review of her medical history but did not conduct an examination.

Mayo Clinic recognizes that the standard of care for the evaluation of a comatose patient includes a detailed review of the patient’s history and previous evaluations as well as the performance of a comprehensive neurological examination. In some instances, electrophysiological and imaging studies may be used to establish a diagnosis.

The views expressed by Dr. Cheshire in the case of Terri Schiavo do not represent the opinion of Mayo Clinic or its Departments of Neurology. The Mayo Clinic Departments of Neurology do not have opinions regarding the diagnosis of Terri Schiavo because they have not performed an evaluation as described above."

=========

"Cheshire said he reviewed Schiavo's medical records, watched videotapes and observed her at the Pinellas Park hospice earlier this month.

But he was unable to directly examine her, Department of Children and Families Secretary Lucy Hadi told reporters.

Cheshire is also director of biotech ethics at the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, a group founded in 1994 to recognize the contribution of "biblical values" to the bioethical debate.



[Edited on 3-25-2005 by Prestius]

[Warriorbird]

Ouch.

[HarmNone]

In this case, a very simple 10-15 minute neurological exam would do the trick. It doesn't require a rocket scientist, or an MD, to do one. Nurses do them in the course of their work. Sitting at the bedside and observing the patient is not enough to render an opinion.

[Ravenstorm]

From a recent Reuters article:


The FBI arrested a North Carolina man for sending an e-mail offering a bounty of $250,000 dollars to anyone who would kill Michael Schiavo and $50,000 for killing a judge who has ruled in favor of the husband in the case.

The man, Richard Alan Meywes of Fairview, North Carolina, was charged with solicitation of murder and sending threatening communications and could face up to 15 years in prison, said the U.S. Attorney's office in Tampa, Florida.

Just amazing.

Raven

[HarmNone]

I never cease to be amazed by the way cases like this bring the weirdos out of the woodwork! :rolleyes:

[Back]

Ok, die already. I dont want to read daily headlines like ”father calls judicial murder“ and ”only minutes away!”.

FFS. There are people dying in Iraq on a daily basis. Any of them getting life support would be a miracle.

This is a very sensitive subject I think.

Also, the father of Terri could scratch his butt and make international headlines.

[Edited on 3-26-2005 by Stanley Burrell]

[Keller]

I guess I wanna know -- what makes a persistent vegatative state valid?

Is it a majority of neurologists saying you are?

Is it 15 years of declining condition?

Or can one pro-lifer and a two kangaroo branches of government decide that life is too important to spend money on those who would benefit from the help and instead choose to spend it on a woman who *MIGHT* (according to medical professionals as well as common sense) be in a persistent vegatative state?

[Edited on 3-26-2005 by Keller]

[HarmNone]

If the only part of your brain that is functioning is the hindbrain, you are considered to be in a persistent vegetative state. Functions handled by the hindbrain will continue (breathing, blinking, postured movement, reflexive movement, etc); however, purposeful action will be absent. There exists a specific set of neurological tests that can be performed at bedside (on a patient who is awake) that will diagnose the condition. If there is doubt, a CAT scan will indicate whether or not the condition exists.

In this case, because Terri's parents seem unable to accept the inevitable truth, had I been her husband I would have had a PET scan done to remove all doubt in their minds. The PET scan is not necessary, however, and would have been done solely for the purpose of closure for the parents.

[Nakiro]

Her parents won't know closure until it hits them with a tombstone.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Prestius

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Warriorbird
They stated it...from a videotape. They're curiously not tesifying.

They haven't seen her because asshole husband hasn't allowed them to. Doctors testify in courts all the time who haven't seen the victim.

Mayo Clinic = Best in the World



"Dr. William Cheshire was asked by the Florida Department of Children and Families to share his expertise related to potentially vulnerable adults. As part of this commitment, he was asked to render his professional opinion for the state of Florida in the case of Terri Schiavo. He observed the patient at her bedside and conducted a review of her medical history but did not conduct an examination.

Mayo Clinic recognizes that the standard of care for the evaluation of a comatose patient includes a detailed review of the patient’s history and previous evaluations as well as the performance of a comprehensive neurological examination. In some instances, electrophysiological and imaging studies may be used to establish a diagnosis.

The views expressed by Dr. Cheshire in the case of Terri Schiavo do not represent the opinion of Mayo Clinic or its Departments of Neurology. The Mayo Clinic Departments of Neurology do not have opinions regarding the diagnosis of Terri Schiavo because they have not performed an evaluation as described above."

=========

"Cheshire said he reviewed Schiavo's medical records, watched videotapes and observed her at the Pinellas Park hospice earlier this month.

But he was unable to directly examine her, Department of Children and Families Secretary Lucy Hadi told reporters.

Cheshire is also director of biotech ethics at the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, a group founded in 1994 to recognize the contribution of "biblical values" to the bioethical debate.



[Edited on 3-25-2005 by Prestius]

Dr. Stevens from the Mayo Clinic had the same diagnosis as Dr.Chesire.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
Jeb Bush called in another doctor to try to claim she is in a "minimally conscious state". He watched videotapes of her and read her medical files before coming up with that diagnosis. He directs a laboratory in a Jacksonville branch of the Mayo Clinic (possibly who xtc meant?) and is, according to Jeb, "a renowned neurologist".

Despite being so renowned, when asked about him, the director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, replied, "Who?" And one of the court appointed neurologists who actually examined Schiavo said:


"I have no idea who this Cheshire is," and added: "He has to be bogus, a pro-life fanatic. You'll not find any credible neurologist or neurosurgeon to get involved at this point and say she's not vegetative."

Searching for any publications of his, the NY Times didn't find a single one that dealt with persistent vegetative states. He did though study headaches a lot.

The article is here (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/national/24doctor.html).

Raven

Dr. Cheshire is with the Mayo Clinic. The court appointed neurologist works for a University that supports the right to die and teaches classed about it. Dr Wolfson also has ties to the parent firm of that owns the hospice that Schiavo is in.

If Wolfson is so ignorant not to know neurologists from the Mayo Clinic then it shows how little he knows about his profession and those it.

Oh and the Times a compete liberal rag.

[xtc]

Dr Cheshire:

William P. Cheshire Jr., M.D., M.A., F.A.A.N. is an Associate Professor of Neurology in Mayo Clinic College of Medicine and a Consultant in the Department of Neurology at Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Florida. He received the Outstanding Faculty Award from the Mayo School of Continuing Medical Education in 2001.

Additionally he is a Princeton graduate.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by xtc

[quote]A bone scan taken of Terri revealed a healed broken right femur bone and healed bone fractures in her ribs, pelvis, spine and ankle. Is this just coincidence?

She was anorexic and bulemic. When you don't take in adequate nutrition, your bones become brittle and your teeth can fall out. Is that the reason for her injuries? I don't know, and either do you.

Jorddyn


Funny my sister suffered from severe bulimia and she never broke a bone. I visited her in three treatment centres and I never met anyone there who broke a bone due to bulimia either. She is in Texas and today I called her to wish her a Happy Easter, I asked her in her years receiving treatment for bulimia or subsequently after recovering and working with active bulimics had she ever heard of anyone breaking a bone due to bulimia. This totals close to 15 years time span. She said never. That bulimics don't suffer any more broken bones than the rest of the population.

[Ilvane]

"The views expressed by Dr. Cheshire in the case of Terri Schiavo do not represent the opinion of Mayo Clinic or its Departments of Neurology. The Mayo Clinic Departments of Neurology do not have opinions regarding the diagnosis of Terri Schiavo because they have not performed an evaluation as described above."

And read this.

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/102/106853.htm

[Warriorbird]

Curiously enough, several members of my family have had heart attacks. My grandfather broke a collar bone and several ribs when he had his last.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Curiously enough, several members of my family have had heart attacks. My grandfather broke a collar bone and several ribs when he had his last.

Is he a bulimic?

[Ilvane]

Complications of bulimia nervosa


It is common for people with bulimia nervosa to hide the condition from others for years. By the time it becomes apparent, many complications of the disorder may have developed. Complications range from mild to severe, depending on the type and duration of purging behaviors.1

Common complications include:

Tooth decay, toothaches, swollen gums, gum disease (gingivitis), and erosion of tooth enamel, caused by acid in the mouth from vomiting.
Osteoporosis from low amounts of calcium in the diet. (This increases the risk of breaking bones)
Electrolyte imbalances and changes in metabolism that can lead to heart problems such as arrhythmia and even death.
Dehydration, which can lead to weakness, fainting, or kidney damage.
Esophageal inflammation or tears or stomach ulcers. The first sign of this may be bloody vomit (hematemesis).
Swollen salivary glands.
Syncope or loss of consciousness usually due to low blood pressure.
Abnormal heartbeat (arrhythmia).
Low body temperature.
Suicide risk when feeling discouraged about having bulimia, relapse, or continued obsessive body image issues.
Chronic irregular bowel movements and constipation as a result of laxative abuse.
Overuse of medication (such as ipecac syrup) to cause vomiting can lead to diarrhea, weakness, low blood pressure, chest pain, and difficulty breathing. A person can die from prolonged overuse of these medications.

[Czeska]

Terri Schiavo, the 41-year-old brain-damaged woman who became the centerpiece of a national right-to-die battle, died this morning, nearly two weeks after doctors removed the feeding tube that had sustained her for more than a decade. Brother Paul O'Donnell, a spokesman for Bob and Mary Schindler, Schiavo's parents, said the couple was with their daughter's body and praying.

(cnn.com)

[Ilvane]

She's in a better place, bless her soul.

I think I'm going to light some candles for her parents, family, husband and her.

-A

[Edited on 3-31-2005 by Ilvane]

[HarmNone]

It is over for her. Blessed be.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
She's in a better place, bless her soul.

I think I'm going to light some candles for her parents, family, husband and her.

-A

[Edited on 3-31-2005 by Ilvane]

In a better place?

SHE IS DEAD. There is no worse place than that.

[Xcalibur]

According to many, she's nowhere.

Being nowhere is humanly impossible, yet, she's there.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Ilvane
She's in a better place, bless her soul.

I think I'm going to light some candles for her parents, family, husband and her.

-A

[Edited on 3-31-2005 by Ilvane]

In a better place?

SHE IS DEAD. There is no worse place than that.

Believe me, PB, there are far worse places to be than dead.

[Xcalibur]

That you don't know since you don'T know what is it to be dead.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Ilvane
She's in a better place, bless her soul.

I think I'm going to light some candles for her parents, family, husband and her.

-A

[Edited on 3-31-2005 by Ilvane]

In a better place?

SHE IS DEAD. There is no worse place than that.

Believe me, PB, there are far worse places to be than dead.

Sorry.. but being non-religious and believing that this is the one shot I have at being alive.. I'll choose alive every single day.

In constant pain? WELL I'M STILL ALIVE!
In a vegitative state? WELL I'M STILL ALIVE!
Have both my arms and legs cut off? WELL I'M STILL ALIVE!

Like my grandfather used to say when I asked him how he was.. he said "I'm alive and that's far better than the alternative"

[DeV]

It's all a matter of speculation until we experience the fate of death ourselves.

[Ilvane]

It depends on what you believe PB. I think she's in a better place. Much more peaceful for her.

I had a dream when my dad died. My father was always in pain, you see. He had oxygen machines a lot when he was alive in the last 15 years of his life or so. He also had ulcers on his legs that made it hard to walk.

Right after he died, I had been meditiating a bit on if my father and if he was in a better place, and more peaceful. Since we had to take him off the machines, I thought it was something he wouldn't forgive us for, even though that was what he wanted.

That night, seriously, I had a dream that I was looking down on my father from someplace above him..he was sitting on a beach, wearing shorts(now he could never wear them in real life, because his legs were awful), in a beach chair, drinking a beer(he was also not able to drink alcohol because of an addiction). He looked up at me and waved, with a big smile on his face.

I like to think it was a sign that my dad was okay, and I do believe there is an afterlife. Maybe you could dismiss it as subconcious, but I doubt it..

I also think that now that Terri Schiavo is no longer alive, she is running around up there enjoying the fact that her mind, body and spirit are renewed, and she is no longer trapped in a body that was no longer working.

I don't care what people think of this view, I just think she's in a better place.

-A

[CrystalTears]

It saddens me that Michael is being quite vindictive and controlling even to the bitter end. Minutes before Terri passed, Michael had her family taken out of the room to have someone check her condition. They couldn't even be with her when she passed. I mean was that necessary?

Now this whole ordeal with the autopsy and cremating her and not letting the family have the ability to bury her. She may be dead, but it's not over, unfortunately.

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by DeV
It's all a matter of speculation until we experience the fate of death ourselves.

And when you'll do, it will be too late.

Isn't life charming?

[DeV]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
And when you'll do, it will be too late.I don't disagree. I do believe that it is still speculation no matter how you look at it. It has everything to do with your personal beliefs.



Isn't life charming?

For the most part.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
It saddens me that Michael is being quite vindictive and controlling even to the bitter end. Minutes before Terri passed, Michael had her family taken out of the room to have someone check her condition. They couldn't even be with her when she passed. I mean was that necessary?

Now this whole ordeal with the autopsy and cremating her and not letting the family have the ability to bury her. She may be dead, but it's not over, unfortunately.


No doubt in my mind, Michael Shaivo is a controlling bastard. Interviews with him give me the willies, but we all have to admit this case has placed death rights in the open. Almost everyone I am close to is very aware, at this point, of my wishes because of this case, as I am of theirs.

I think though, like CT inferred, the least her husband could do is allow her parents to take care of her remains. It seems to me that honoring the dead should be a practice undisputably conceeded by the family and the relatives, (unless she told him she wanted to be cremated). I think letting them bury her would go a long way to assauging some of the incredible bitterness, but it doesn't seem like it's gonna happen. :(

I am glad she is gone and can finally rest in peace though. Imo our health care system focuses too much on keeping someone alive at all costs (and I do mean costs) and not on the state of life or what the person might want.


-Melissa

[Nakiro]

She is dead.

In the words of Harmnone, blessed be.

[Ilvane]

CT, you are of course hearing what the Schindler family said..these are the same people that said she was trying to say she was saying I want to live, a couple days back.

It's not as if you don't feel the pain for these people, but have some sympathy for Michael Schiavo too. He had to follow what his wife wished for him to do. CNN said that his brother had called him and he was unable to speak he was sobbing so badly. The parents are'nt the only ones who are hurting.

It was a sad situation on either side.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Ilvane
CT, you are of course hearing what the Schindler family said..these are the same people that said she was trying to say she was saying I want to live, a couple days back.

It's not as if you don't feel the pain for these people, but have some sympathy for Michael Schiavo too. He had to follow what his wife wished for him to do. CNN said that his brother had called him and he was unable to speak he was sobbing so badly. The parents are'nt the only ones who are hurting.

It was a sad situation on either side.

Agree. The man just gives me the willies in interviews and things. There is something about him. I'm not sure what it is. He just seems so businesslike and uncaring, though that could be the result of watching your wife degrade for over a decade and dealing with the setbacks to fighting for what she wanted etc etc.

I think this situation was taken care of though, to the best ability of our legal system in the instance that she left no will. I don't believe she ever mouthed the words "I want to live," but I know my parents, if they didn't know my wishes, especially my dad, would be looking for any kind of hope. Unfortuantely, the false hope of one family was made into a media circus, and I think that's another big issue in our culture.


-Melissa

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Ilvane
She's in a better place, bless her soul.

I think I'm going to light some candles for her parents, family, husband and her.

-A

[Edited on 3-31-2005 by Ilvane]

In a better place?

SHE IS DEAD. There is no worse place than that.

Believe me, PB, there are far worse places to be than dead.

Sorry.. but being non-religious and believing that this is the one shot I have at being alive.. I'll choose alive every single day.

In constant pain? WELL I'M STILL ALIVE!
In a vegitative state? WELL I'M STILL ALIVE!
Have both my arms and legs cut off? WELL I'M STILL ALIVE!

Like my grandfather used to say when I asked him how he was.. he said "I'm alive and that's far better than the alternative"

If that's what you want, PB, it's certainly your choice. I hope you have your wishes well documented so that others will know what they are. :)

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV
It's all a matter of speculation until we experience the fate of death ourselves.

It's like saying "Hey, when we die we turn into aliens and inhabit the center of Mars." or "When we die, our souls are transferred into worms " or "When we die, our energy is put into the sun where it continues to burn like hell for all of eternity"...

Sorry, the 'comforting' thoughts of an afterlife are there to do nothing more than comfort. It's speculation and conjecture to think that anything but you are dead happens after you die.

Certainly.. because I've never gone through death I personally have no proof. My proof is the rotting corpses that inhabit our graveyards and our morgues. Where is the proof of this so called afterlife?? Where is this proof about people having souls?

And PLEASE don't use "IT'S IN THE BIBLE DUH" reason. A book written by man is a far cry from anything factual.

[Xcalibur]

When we die, we lose 29 grams.

[skinlessman]

Terry Schiavo is a fucking CUNT! She took up space for valuable headlines (not that they'd be used any wiser by corporate media).

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
When we die, we lose 29 grams.

Well.. we can't explain it so IT MUST BE HOW MUCH A SOUL WEIGHS BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER ANSWER.

And thus the advent of Religion.

[HarmNone]

Just for the record:

The human soul, Dr. Duncan MacDougall theorized, weighs approximately 21 grams, a principle that was published in a mainstream scientific journal in 1907. The press picked up the story at the time and the splash rippled all the way to the New York Times: a Haverhill doctor had weighed the human soul.

Though the experiment is a century old and the results are not taken seriously in the modern medical community, the concept still lingers in the dusty corners of paranormal folklore today.

[SpunGirl]

I'd probably be cold and businesslike after ten years, too. And really, you have to have a bit of respect for the guy - he pushed ahead (despite random asshats along the way) with what his wife WANTED, instead of blindly clinging to a useless husk of a body like her parents did. He seems to have his feet firmly in reality, instead of off in la-la land like most of her family.

I hope now that it's almost over, he can remember what he and his wife had together before she became like that. Maybe he can properly grieve.

-K

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
And really, you have to have a bit of respect for the guy - he pushed ahead (despite random asshats along the way) with what his wife WANTED, instead of blindly clinging to a useless husk of a body like her parents did. -K

You might want to change that to what he claimed that his wife wanted since there is no proof either way.

[SpunGirl]

I've discussed what I would want with my husband regarding such an instance, and I discussed it with him before this whole drama made headlines. I'm inclined to consider that she might have done the same. And if she felt really strongly about being kept alive NO MATTER WHAT, why didn't she tell anyone that? Namely, her parents? Another family member? Friend?

-K

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
I've discussed what I would want with my husband regarding such an instance, and I discussed it with him before this whole drama made headlines. I'm inclined to consider that she might have done the same. And if she felt really strongly about being kept alive NO MATTER WHAT, why didn't she tell anyone that? Namely, her parents? Another family member? Friend?

-K

And if she felt really strongly about not being kept alive no matter what, why didn't she tell anyone other than her husband that? Namely, her parents? Another family member? Friend?

[Nakiro]

PB, how can someone who values life so much decline to believe our entire being is nothing greater than a series of metabolic functions?

[SpunGirl]

Probably for the same reason most people don't - she didn't think it would ever happen. It was probably mentioned to her husband during a semi-serious conversation once, and then dropped.

The bottom line is that you have one person close to her who says, "she said this, and I would like to honor her wishes." No one else is contradicting that she wanted that. Even her family, with their wish to keep her alive, has not said, "no, she said once that she would want to live." They say she said (or "showed" it, whatever) RECENTLY, which is even more ridiculous.

-K

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
And if she felt really strongly about not being kept alive no matter what, why didn't she tell anyone other than her husband that? Namely, her parents? Another family member? Friend?

She did. I definitely recall reading in the news that at least one friend of hers testified to that effect over the years. I doubt I'll find it again but I'll look.

Raven

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Nakiro
PB, how can someone who values life so much decline to believe our entire being is nothing greater than a series of metabolic functions?

You believe that I value life so much.. well that is a moniker I am not worthy of wearing. If I really valued life so much.. I would not eat meat and would not hunt. I would not believe in capital punishment and a woman's choice about abortion. I would believe that we should abolish all guns and all wars and never even swat at a fly.

I am certainly not like that at all.

I simply do not have this need to believe there is an alien being hovering over me that can snuff out life at his/her pleasure. I do not have this need to believe that after I die, I am going somewhere else so I can confront my own mortality easier.

I believe we have but one shot at this thing called life and that we should make the most of it.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Ilvane
CT, you are of course hearing what the Schindler family said..these are the same people that said she was trying to say she was saying I want to live, a couple days back.

What exactly did I say that was wrong? Were they not escorted from the room? Are they not disputing the funeral because he wants it his way and they want it theirs?

And you know what? She's gone. It doesn't matter anymore what she wanted, even though there was never WRITTEN PROOF of what she wanted, just the testimony of the husband, which obviously is the only right testimony for the courts.

This case has left a bitter taste in my mouth for legalities and battles between families, and the hypocrisy on both sides about what is right for her, or about controlling her life decisions. I'm not going to into it anymore about whether she deserved to stay around or not cause I'm in the minority and tired of defending my feelings.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Parkbandit
And if she felt really strongly about not being kept alive no matter what, why didn't she tell anyone other than her husband that? Namely, her parents? Another family member? Friend?

She did. I definitely recall reading in the news that at least one friend of hers testified to that effect over the years. I doubt I'll find it again but I'll look.

Raven

If need be, I can pull up the court documents where Michael never mentioned this as being Terri's wish when he was trying to sue doctors for malpractice. Instead, he needed the money to make Terri comfortable for the rest of her life.

I simply do not trust the guy and do not believe he always had Terri's best interest in mind.

[SpunGirl]

Maybe I have an unrealistic view of "most" spousal relationships because mine is so good. But I also would never, ever marry someone I thought would fight my family tooth and nail for no other reason than to.... fight them. He had a reason, and I believe that reason was his knowledge of her wishes.

If he was just a total asshole who didn't want to deal with the issue anymore, he could have turned care of her over to her parents and just quietly exited the scene.

-K

[Edited on 3-31-2005 by SpunGirl]

[spunkmonk]

http://www.jerkbox.com/livejournal/photoshopular/middle_finger_monkey.jpg

[Edited on 4-29-2005 by spunkmonk]

[SpunGirl]

Very classy, Spunkmonk.

-K

[The Korean]

Just a curious question...what was the timespan between from him winning the malpractice suit, to him wanting to pull the tube?

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by The Korean
Just a curious question...what was the timespan between from him winning the malpractice suit, to him wanting to pull the tube?

Six years.

Raven

[The Korean]

Ah. Then I would probably be doing the same thing as Michael, if Terri did tell him that she didn't want to live like that. I'd fight for a few years looking at possible treatments to fix my loved one, and if I got told time and time again that there's nothing that can be done, I would then give up and follow her wishes.

I personally don't see anything wrong with that. Though because of this case, I'm now talking with some legal personnel about getting a living will done.

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by The Korean
Just a curious question...what was the timespan between from him winning the malpractice suit, to him wanting to pull the tube?

Six years.

Raven

From what I've read, at the time of the malpractice suit when he said the money was to take care of her, he at that time, imo, probably still had hope she would recover. To this day her own parents though she would snap out of it. He hasn't wanted to pull the plug the whole time.

After another six years of watching his wife waste away, maybe, just maybe, he realized she wasn't going to come back and started the process of letting go.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
If he was just a total asshole who didn't want to deal with the issue anymore, he could have turned care of her over to her parents

Which is what they wanted.. desperately, I might add. So I don't see why that would make him the asshole. It would have made him the savior in their eyes.


and just quietly exited the scene.

And give up his "inheritance"? :D

[The Korean]

you mean the 40-50 grand that's left?

[Caiylania]

<<And give up his "inheritance"? >>

I hate arguing with you CT, but where are his account records to show that any of that money is even left? Good chance most of it is down the drain in health expendatures.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by The Korean
Ah. Then I would probably be doing the same thing as Michael, if Terri did tell him that she didn't want to live like that. I'd fight for a few years looking at possible treatments to fix my loved one, and if I got told time and time again that there's nothing that can be done, I would then give up and follow her wishes.

Exactly.

I did find who else testified to her wishes as being no life support but see it was Scott's brother and sister in law, both of whom were, as a couple, regularly social with Michael and Terri. Of course, people will just say they're lying to support Michael.

Raven

[CrystalTears]

I'm talking of the money he would receive for her death. Isn't he the beneficiary? If he doesn't get that anymore, then I stand corrected.

Caiy you can argue with me. I still :heart: you. :)

[Edited on 3/31/2005 by CrystalTears]

[The Korean]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I'm talking of the money he would receive for her death. Isn't he the beneficiary? If he doesn't get that anymore, then I stand corrected.

Caiy you can argue with me. I still :heart: you. :)

[Edited on 3/31/2005 by CrystalTears]

like life insurance stuff? I don't remember if there was any on her or not. All I know that's left from the settlement is about 40-50 grand that some news article stated. Though if he gets that, you can bet the news will be watching him like a hawk to see what he does with it.

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I'm talking of the money he would receive for her death. Isn't he the beneficiary? If he doesn't get that anymore, then I stand corrected.

Caiy you can argue with me. I still :heart: you. :)

[Edited on 3/31/2005 by CrystalTears]

I'm surprised she even still had insurance. That company would take a huge hit. Not exactly a safe risk :/

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Which is what they wanted.. desperately, I might add. So I don't see why that would make him the asshole. It would have made him the savior in their eyes.



I can see your point there CT, but were I in his shoes... it would be more important to me to respect the wishes of my loved one than to be the savior in his (deluded) parents' eyes.

-K

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I'm talking of the money he would receive for her death. Isn't he the beneficiary? If he doesn't get that anymore, then I stand corrected.

Caiy you can argue with me. I still :heart: you. :)

[Edited on 3/31/2005 by CrystalTears]

Michael Schiavo's attorney has denied the existance of any life insurance policy on Terri. That would make sense, in some ways, as she was pretty young when this happened and many young people don't carry life insurance. Once she became ill, no insurance company would have touched her.

Discussions of an insurance policy which would pay off to Michael upon her death are purely speculation, at this point.

[CrystalTears]

I've grown to really like you Spun, so I'm like Caiy where I don't like to argue with people over things like this, but it hurts me to hear you call their parents deluded. So you're basically saying that everyone who believed in keeping her alive is deluded. That millions of people who believe in keeping her alive are deluded. Really?

Three people heard her say that she didn't want to live like that, and nearly a dozen heard otherwise, or don't believe that she would say such a thing. Those dozen are deluded. I don't believe in having one person make the decisions for me like that unless you have it from me in writing.

People make statements like "over my dead body would I allow that to happen" or "I'd hate to live like that" when they go to a funeral or a hospital, but when it comes to what they REALLY want, it should be legally documented, and if that is not available, leave them alive.

I'm telling everyone on these boards and have told my fiance and people at work.. LEAVE ME PLUGGED IN NO MATTER WHAT! kthx. :D

[SpunGirl]

Maybe deluded was a bit harsh. But I'm referring to their consistent belief that she was making progress, and that she would snap out of it. I think that was pure wishful thinking on their part.

-K

[HarmNone]

As I've said before, telling someone your wishes is just not enough. Get it done in a legal format for your own protection.

[CrystalTears]

Maybe it is. I mean if someone wants to experiment and get grants to animate a worm and he gets that ability, I don't see why these poor people couldn't hang onto their daughter as long as possible, but that's me.. obviously.

[The Korean]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

People make statements like "over my dead body would I allow that to happen" or "I'd hate to live like that" when they go to a funeral or a hospital, but when it comes to what they REALLY want, it should be legally documented, and if that is not available, leave them alive.



this is in no way meant to go against what you just said. I just found it funny when I read this.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=19&u=/nm/20050331/ts_nm/pope_dc_19

read the 4th paragraph.

[Caiylania]

Talk about an immortal pope. Imagine keeping him alive for years, unable to perform any functions for the church at all. A vegetative icon :/

[Ilvane]

PB the judgement was in 1992 for the malpractice.

A jury in Pinellas County, Florida, awards $1 million in a malpractice judgment; $700,000 of that is placed into a trust fund to pay for Terri Schiavo's care.

He fell out with the parents a year later.. it wasn't until 1998 that he petition a court to have his wife's feeding tube removed.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by The Korean
this is in no way meant to go against what you just said. I just found it funny when I read this.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=19&u=/nm/20050331/ts_nm/pope_dc_19

read the 4th paragraph.

Heh, the day that we saw on the news that the pope was on a feeding tube, my fiance yelled "great, now people are gonna try and unplug the frickin' pope.. watch!" :lol:

[Ilvane]

The pope on a nasal feeding tube and otherwise alert and walking around aside from that is a heck of a lot different than Terri Shiavo.

-A

[SpunGirl]

I found that funny as well, CT and Korean - especially since the Catholic Church in its infinite wisdom has no "backup Pope" that can perform the necessary duties if the regular Pope is still alive, but incapacitated.

-K

[CrystalTears]

I don't think he's walking around as much as you think. They walk him around in a wheelchair. He's also not speaking.

So when are we unplugging the elderly in nursing homes who are basically shit factories and on respirators and/or feeding tubes? What is the difference there?

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
I found that funny as well, CT and Korean - especially since the Catholic Church in its infinite wisdom has no "backup Pope" that can perform the necessary duties if the regular Pope is still alive, but incapacitated.

-K

That's what you think.

And the Pape isn't the high infinate power.

There's some people behind him, just like Bush.

I thought you knew??!???!!?!??!?!?!??!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!?!?!? !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Artha]

especially since the Catholic Church in its infinite wisdom has no "backup Pope" that can perform the necessary duties if the regular Pope is still alive, but incapacitated.
There's a whole bunch of cardinals and aides. I'm sure one of them is senior to everyone except the Pope.

[Edited on 3-31-2005 by Artha]

[Caiylania]

>>I'm sure one of them is senior to everyone except the Pope. <<

I'm sure they are all pretty senior by now hehe. Depends anyone?

[SpunGirl]

:lol2: @ Caiylania. Also, I'm pretty sure there's some holy shit that only the "official" ordained Pope is allowed to do. That's why the always appoint a new one right-righty away. But to be honest, I'm not an expert on the Catholic Church.

Apparently X is, though. Pape, anyone?

-K

[HarmNone]

The Pope has Parkinson's disease. Walking is going to be difficult for him. His current difficulty with swallowing could be related to the Parkinson's, as well. It's a slow killer, and an ugly disease. :(

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
Maybe deluded was a bit harsh. But I'm referring to their consistent belief that she was making progress, and that she would snap out of it. I think that was pure wishful thinking on their part.

-K

The belief she can make progress isn't the delusion that she will snap out of it.

Many people felt that if you're going to err, err on the side of life.

[Edited on 3-31-2005 by Hulkein]

[SpunGirl]

Okay, Hulkein. How long should they have waited for said progress to evolve into something besides the state she was in for fifteen years?

-K

[Hulkein]

I'm not really someone who was saying she should be kept on the tube, I definitely wouldn't want that, so I can't answer that.

I'm just saying, not many people expected a sudden miraculous breakthrough, but rather a slow but progressive healing (albeit limited) that some doctors said was possible with therapy.

[Edited on 3-31-2005 by Hulkein]

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
Okay, Hulkein. How long should they have waited for said progress to evolve into something besides the state she was in for fifteen years?

-K

What progress though? They weren't doing any rehab or therapy that I know of, or any surgeries or more scans of the brain. What did they think would happen lying there with no medical intervention? And if there was in all these years, please give me the link so that I can read it about.

[GSLeloo]

This entire thing is a personal matter. Both of my parents immediatly said they wouldn't want any extreme measures taken. My mother works with several children who are in a situation similar to Terri. Some you can see respond to you but there is a certain point where you can tell that nothing is there anymore. I'd rather be freed than sit like that for 15 years.

[Ilvane]

There were a ton of attempts for her to have therapy, but how long do you live in that state before it's plausible they are coming back?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7328639/

This is a good article, read it.

-A

[Edited on 3-31-2005 by Ilvane]

[Back]

JFC pull the tube on this thread already!

[CrystalTears]

Okay that only talks of the tests and examinations that were done. It doesn't tell me of any therapy that has been done in the last 15 years. Not that it matters anymore. :(

[HarmNone]

About the only therapy that is possible for those without a functioning cerebral cortex is passive therapy, wherein the joints are moved through their natural range of motion to try to prevent contraction (as much as is possible). The patient is unable to participate in therapy as we think of it because the cerebral cortex isn't available to receive or send signals that will allow directed movement and activity. :(

[CrystalTears]

Oh I understand that, HarmNone, but when I read that Michael wouldn't even allow nurses to get her to hold a towel to keep her fingers and hands moving, then it just appeared as though he didn't allow any kind of therapy for her, which is why I asked.