Subpoeanaing Terri Schiavo

[Warriorbird]

Absolutely sick. I hope I have a clean death so that my wife never has to go through anything like this, whether she remarries or not. I wouldn't give a damn, I'd be dead.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/schiavo.brain-damaged/index.html

[Edited on 3-18-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Back]

The government knows best.

[Warriorbird]

The Computer knows best. Do not speak ill of the Computer.

[Atlanteax]

Euthanasia = Good thing

People are so preoccupied with the idea of perpetual life, they decline to consider quality of life.

Does not help that Bible considers suicide a sin (which Government supports, as the Church/Gov't way to ensure that you pay your debts)

[CrystalTears]

Not sure why the sarcasm towards the government, since they are the ones trying to keep her alive. Unless that's why you're slamming them.

The thought that this poor woman would live through a feeding tube for the next 30+ years is rough for me to accept, but on the same token, I wouldn't want to see her slowly die due to starvation either.

I can certainly understand the husband's point of view of not wishing to see them suffering this way for so long. I'm not one for assisted suicide, but I can certainly see why some would feel it would be necessary in situations like this.

[Warriorbird]

Way to not make sense. If I don't wish to be kept alive (and would not be on my own) and make provisions for it I don't want the government interfering. I think this is way different than traditional "assisted suicide."

[CrystalTears]

Thing is she can't say what she wants or doesn't want, that's the problem. So someone else is deciding her life for her, and that's why this is going on.

This is basically people saying they're not going to feed her anymore, and that's kinda fucked up logic no matter how comatose she is. She's still a living, breathing person, so it can't be as simple as unplugging her.

[Warriorbird]

She made provisions with the husband before the incident. Unfortunately, they didn't make a traditional living will, so it's a case of the parents vs the husband. If he'd been after her money, he'd have tried to have this done quickly. He didn't. Discarding that, these people want to keep her alive in a vegetative state forever. That's sick.

[Edited on 3-18-2005 by Warriorbird]

[HarmNone]

I agree with Warriorbird on this issue. It's something I see a lot of, considering the work I do.

This is quite different, as I see it, than assisted suicide. Assisted suicide would take the life of someone who would not die otherwise. In cases like this one, without the Herculean efforts of medical personnel, this girl would not be alive.

The proponents of feeding tube removal in cases of permanent vegetative states, such as this one, are promoting a natural death. They stand against keeping someone alive through the use of artificial means, such as feeding tubes, ventilators and other such medical devices when the person would die, naturally, without them.

Perhaps, in order to truly understand the complexities of this issue, one has to have seen the results of being kept alive artificially for years. It is not a pretty sight. Not at all. :(

[Warriorbird]

I have. It will always haunt me.

[HarmNone]

I just heard that the order to maintain the feeding tube has been overturned, and the tube can now be removed.

That poor girl. She can't even defend herself against the horrors that are going on over her unknowing body. It's so very sad. :(

[Warriorbird]

Unfortunately, they're gonna try to pull off taking her to Congress.

[CrystalTears]

It's sick on both sides, quite frankly. It's a combination of knowing they want to keep a brain-damaged person alive for so long, and on the same token, knowing someone will slowly die to death due to starvation.

If they choose to pull the tube, I hope they will at least make the death faster and less painful.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
I have. It will always haunt me.

I'm sorry you had to experience that, Warriorbird. I truly am.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
It's sick on both sides, quite frankly. It's a combination of knowing they want to keep a brain-damaged person alive for so long, and on the same token, knowing someone will slowly die to death due to starvation.

If they choose to pull the tube, I hope they will at least make the death faster and less painful.

Pain relief is a given in these cases. To deny pain relief would be cruel.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Warriorbird
I have. It will always haunt me.

I'm sorry you had to experience that, Warriorbird. I truly am.

Yea, me too...

Came close to the same experience, but fortunately the family member passed away before it could had developed into that kind of situation.

[HarmNone]

If this does nothing else, I hope it serves to encourage even young people to make Living Wills. Make your decisions and give those decisions legal clout. It's important.

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by HarmNone
If this does nothing else, I hope it serves to encourage even young people to make Living Wills. Make your decisions and give those decisions legal clout. It's important.

I did this when I had my first child, I personally don't want anyone deciding what is best for me in such a scenario. My will is very clear, no life support, if my heart stops, leave it that way and put me in the incinerator and burn my body up. Oh and I will not take blood tranfusions either, when its my time I want to just go.

I have to wonder about her parents, letting her be kept alive for their own selfish reasons. The poor woman isn't going to be any different, sadly. I mean christ if they NEED to have her around for their own sick happiness, then let her die in a respectful manner and stuff her and sit her on a chair in their home <end sarcasum>

[HarmNone]

Grief does strange things to people. It's not so much about selfishness as it is about the inability to get through the grieving process because there is a lack of closure in this situation.

Everyone involved, parents and husband alike, loves her equally. They simply feel differently about the issue of her condition. It's understandable on both sides.

That's why the Living Will is so important. It will define exactly what YOU want done should you be unable to communicate your wishes. You can stipulate that everything possible be done, that nothing heroic be done, and all sorts of in-betweens. It's a very valuable document to have.

[CrystalTears]

Yeah it's probably just hard on the parents to see their child slipping this way, especially when she's able to recognize them and smile when she sees them.

It's really hard to let someone go when they're like that, even when logic says that letting them go would be the best option for everyone in the long run. It's just hard to see it that way when you're struggling with the thought.

[DeV]

Power of attorney + Living will = Set for life and death. :)

[Brattt8525]

Grief does strange things to people. It's not so much about selfishness as it is about the inability to get through the grieving process because there is a lack of closure in this situation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I cannot for the life of me understand how parents could allow such a thing to continue. I love my children and am happily an overbearing over protective mamma bear to them. When they get hurt, sick or upset it rips at my very soul. To think of letting them live in this state, just because "I" couldn't deal with the closure process is unthinkable. I just don't get it they need to allow this poor woman to pass on, she sure as hell wouldn't want to live like this.

Living Wills People....get them or end up like this.

[HarmNone]

Smart girl, Dev! :up:

As to the issue of Terri smiling, I have to say that she probably does not "smile", as we would think of someone smiling. Her cerebral cortex has been replaced by spinal fluid. She has no ability for conscious behaviors. The sounds she makes, her movements, and the reflexive grimaces that her poor parents want so much to see as "smiles", are actually created by brain stem activity. Sadly, we do not have the ability to rebuild a cerebral cortex that has, in essence, degenerated into nothing.

[CrystalTears]

I know this, tell them that! :(

[HarmNone]

Believe me, I've had to do so. It isn't easy to get across to loving family members that that grimace is not a smile, and that their loved one is not really "there" anymore. I've cried many a tear with family members over similar situations. It's a terrible position to find oneself in.

[Jorddyn]

She married him. She turned over her care in a case such as this to him by marrying him. As hard it is for the parents, she made this decision as an adult, and they have no right to overturn it. The only way I could see that his right to make these decisions for her could rightfully be taken away is if they were in the process of a divorce, or if he was the direct reason she was in that state.

I won't even go into how disgusted I am that this has become a political issue - Florida attempting legislation, Congress calling her to testify? Come on. If her parents don't have a place in this debate, these people sure as hell don't.

I've named my brother as the one to make decisions for me in my living will. We don't have an close bond so it shouldn't be as painful for him as it would be for my parents, but I also don't fear that he'll just rip out the plug if I have a hangnail.

Jorddyn, death before vegetable please

Edited to clarify: Part of the reason I chose him is not just to save my parents the torture of pulling the plug, but to ensure that if the plug needs pulled, it will be.

[Edited on 3-18-2005 by Jorddyn]

[Kyra]

I took care of a young man in the same shape for 6 years. He had been in that state for almost 10 years before his parents finally decided to fight to get the feeding tube taken out..another long drawn out battle.

All the reflexive movements he made would often freak people out who didn't realize it was just posturing &/or reflexes.

Personally even if I WERE conscious of what was going on around me yet stuck in such a state...who would want to live like that? Not me, thanks..yank the plug, dope me with a good morphine cocktail & let me go.

K.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Kyra
Personally even if I WERE conscious of what was going on around me yet stuck in such a state...who would want to live like that? Not me, thanks..yank the plug, dope me with a good morphine cocktail & let me go.


Amen to that.

My question is why is it better to let someone starve to death/die of thirst than to give them a quick OD of morphine?

Jorddyn, just curious

[xtc]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
She made provisions with the husband before the incident. Unfortunately, they didn't make a traditional living will, so it's a case of the parents vs the husband. If he'd been after her money, he'd have tried to have this done quickly. He didn't. Discarding that, these people want to keep her alive in a vegetative state forever. That's sick.

[Edited on 3-18-2005 by Warriorbird]

These "provisions" are nothing more than the husband's word. No one else witnessed the conversation and Terry never mentioned it to anyone else. We only have the husband’s word for this. Here is the problem the husband is living with another woman and has a child by her. He also is the beneficiary of a million dollar medical malpractice award for Terry. The man is a complete slime ball. Terry's father has offered to help facilitate in any sort of divorce proceedings for them, so the husband can get on with his life as he claims he wants to do. Of course he would no longer be the beneficiary of the malpractice award. The husband doesn't want to give this up.

A few months back I saw the husband on CNN and when he was asked by a caller why he just didn’t divorce Terry he has no answer. He was similarly speechless when another caller asked him if loved his wife so much, why he was living with another woman.

Incidentally a Judge in Florida has refused intervention by the US Attorney Generals office and the feeding tube has been removed. Unfortunately for Terry she married an asshole.

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=38186

[Edited on 3-18-2005 by xtc]

[Kyra]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by Kyra
Personally even if I WERE conscious of what was going on around me yet stuck in such a state...who would want to live like that? Not me, thanks..yank the plug, dope me with a good morphine cocktail & let me go.


Amen to that.

My question is why is it better to let someone starve to death/die of thirst than to give them a quick OD of morphine?

Jorddyn, just curious

Me, personally I've seen enough people put thru so much pain & suffering by their families who can't "let go" & would rather torture their loved ones...I'm all for Kevorkian type methods.

However, in my post above I was referring to pull the feeding tube, keep me doped up so I don't feel the pain of starving, etc...& let me die as pain free as possible..not O.D.(although that sounds WAY preferrable to starving to death IMHO).

K.

[Warriorbird]

Reputedly he's also spent most of that award on her care/attempts to revive her. I think both sides have PR teams at work.

If your spouse was in that state, why would they care what else you did?

[Anglo American]

Originally posted by xtc
Unfortunately for Terry she married an asshole.

Edited on 3-18-2005 by xtc] So what? Some of my best buds are assholes but are good people when it comes to family and shit. What does him being an asshole have to do with the current condition of his vegetable wife? Would you want to live like that?

[Warriorbird]

According to her sister, her feeding tube has been pulled.

[peam]

It's a tragedy anyone would be allowed to remain in that state for so long.

Should I ever fall to such a condiction, and my SO/family is too ignorant to pull the plug, I welcome any board member to come and disconnect me.

[Brattt8525]

Bush Hurries to Capital to Sign Legislation on Schiavo
Congressional Leaders Reach Deal to Keep Brain-Damaged Woman Alive
By JENNIFER LOVEN, AP



Reuters


Terri Schiavo shown here in 2001 with her mother, Mary Schindler, is in a persistent vegetative state, according to some doctors.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Watch Broadband Video:
Congress Reaches Deal on Bill

More on This Story:
· Partial Case Chronology

Talk About It: Post | Chat


WASHINGTON (March 19) - President Bush is changing his schedule to return to the White House on Sunday to be in place to sign emergency legislation that would shift the case of a brain-damaged Florida woman to federal courts, the White House said Saturday.

''Everyone recognizes that time is important here,'' White House press secretary Scott McClellan said.

After Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed on Friday, members of Congress worked out a deal to pass legislation to allow federal courts to decide the 41-year-old woman's fate and - in the hopes of supporters of the woman's parents - restore the tube that was keeping her alive.

The House and Senate hoped to act on the legislation Sunday, so Bush decided he needed to be in Washington so he could immediately sign the bill, McClellan said.

''The president intends to sign legislation as quickly as possible once it is passed,'' McClellan said.

During previous travels, Bush has had legislation flown to him overnight by military plane for his signature. But in this case, McClellan said that the fact that a woman's life is at stake made it necessary for him to travel to the bill.

''Terri Schiavo's feeding tube has been removed and we stand with ... all those who are working to defend her life,'' he said.

Bush was spending the weekend at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, arriving there Friday night after a day traveling in Florida to pitch his plans to overhaul Social Security.

On Monday, he was to leave from Texas for a two-day trip in the West to continue pitching his Social Security proposals. Now, McClellan said, he would likely keep his Social Security appearances but depart for them from Washington instead.

[Warriorbird]

Sick.

[Ilvane]

You know, honestly..if her husband was out for her money or just to marry his girlfriend, he would have divorced her years ago.

It's about what the person wanted when they were alive.

My father was in a persistant vegetative state for 3 months before we decided to take him off of the machines. They made sure he wasn't going to hurt and they removed the machines. I personally know that my father would have wanted to die in dignity rather than live in pain and just be lying there. I know my father could look at me when I came to visit, and he would blink his eyes..but who would want to live like that forever? It would have been selfish of me. The utter pain you live in watching your loved one in that situation is awful, and pulling the plug isn't any easiers.. I know from watching my mother since my father has died.

They said after her feeding tube was removed, her husband sat at her side and held her hand and was stroking her face..telling her that she would be at peace soon.

He doesn't sound like an asshole to me.

-A

[StrayRogue]

Euthanasia is a good thing. I know I'd want to die if I was in that condition.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Ilvane
He doesn't sound like an asshole to me.

Another thing the pro-life group fails to ever mention is that the woman has been like this for 15 years total. The first eight years were spent seeking every possible treatment available before finally listening to the doctors that there was no hope.

Yeah, what an asshole.

Raven

[peam]

The "That guy's in it for the money!" argument can be debunked by looking at the fact that he turned down a substantial sum of money, less than two weeks ago, offered if he would just walk away from the situation.

[HarmNone]

The Shrub should be signing legislation ASAP that will assure that the tube is replaced. :rolleyes:

[Warriorbird]

Compassionate conservatism. IE: We can be emo yet still fuck you over!

[Edited on 3-20-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Keller]

They are just denying the inevitable, making certain that their suffering is prolonged and avoiding the grieving.

It's about the most unhealthy thing they could be doing. They are living in a fantasy world and I hope someone helps them realize that before they spend more of our money. Not to mention the medical bills they are running up, they are now trying to waste congress' time.

To think they're making President Bush fly home from 8-balls and 12-packs on Spring Break in Crawford to actually spend some time in Washington just makes me sick.

There are your slimeballs xtc, right there.

[Azul]

This should be a wake up call for everyone. Always let your wishes know in legal documents. Be it a something big like a living will or something small like where your paycheck goes. (ok that's not really small but you get what I'm saying)

[xtc]

Originally posted by Ilvane
You know, honestly..if her husband was out for her money or just to marry his girlfriend, he would have divorced her years ago.

It's about what the person wanted when they were alive.

My father was in a persistant vegetative state for 3 months before we decided to take him off of the machines. They made sure he wasn't going to hurt and they removed the machines. I personally know that my father would have wanted to die in dignity rather than live in pain and just be lying there. I know my father could look at me when I came to visit, and he would blink his eyes..but who would want to live like that forever? It would have been selfish of me. The utter pain you live in watching your loved one in that situation is awful, and pulling the plug isn't any easiers.. I know from watching my mother since my father has died.

They said after her feeding tube was removed, her husband sat at her side and held her hand and was stroking her face..telling her that she would be at peace soon.

He doesn't sound like an asshole to me.

-A

I am sorry about your father. I lost my father when I was quite young so I understand somewhat.

Terry's husband has moved on with his life and is living with another woman and has a child by her. This isn't a man staying at his wife’s side. He may be making a good show of it now that the media is watching.

If he divorces her he stands to lose the million dollar award. Not so if Terri dies, so money is a motive.

None of Terri’s family or friends ever heard Terri say that she didn't want a feeding tube or any artificial measures to keep her alive. We only have Michael Schiavo's word that Terri said this. Terri was also a practicing Catholic, so I think it is important to keep this in mind when trying to determine her wishes.

Terri's parents have had other Doctor's examine her and they don't all believe that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state. Last night on CNN, I saw a representative of a Disabled Association say that they agreed with what Congress is doing. Additionally they pointed out that Terri hasn't had the most modern tests done to determine if she has higher brain function.

David Schiavo has moved on with his life. It is Terri’s parents who love her and are most interested in what is best for her. I saw David on CNN months ago and he comes across like a slime ball. David doesn’t want to lose the million dollar award money or the life insurance.

If Terri had left a living will this would never had happened. It is a lesson that all of us should have a living will.

[xtc]

Originally posted by peam
The "That guy's in it for the money!" argument can be debunked by looking at the fact that he turned down a substantial sum of money, less than two weeks ago, offered if he would just walk away from the situation.

I am sure that amount is small compared to the million dollars and any life insurance. Why accept a small sum when a larger one awaits?

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by xtc
None of Terri’s family or friends ever heard Terri say that she didn't want a feeding tube or any artificial measures to keep her alive. We only have Michael Schiavo's word that Terri said this. Terri was also a practicing Catholic, so I think it is important to keep this in mind when trying to determine her wishes.

Terri's parents have had other Doctor's examine her and they don't all believe that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state. Last night on CNN, I saw a representative of a Disabled Association say that they agreed with what Congress is doing. Additionally they pointed out that Terri hasn't had the most modern tests done to determine if she has higher brain function.

David Schiavo has moved on with his life. It is Terri’s parents who love her and are most interested in what is best for her. I saw David on CNN months ago and he comes across like a slime ball. David doesn’t want to lose the million dollar award money or the life insurance.

If Terri had left a living will this would never had happened. It is a lesson that all of us should have a living will.

I agree with you here, xtc. :clap:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
She made provisions with the husband before the incident. Unfortunately, they didn't make a traditional living will, so it's a case of the parents vs the husband. If he'd been after her money, he'd have tried to have this done quickly. He didn't. Discarding that, these people want to keep her alive in a vegetative state forever. That's sick.

[Edited on 3-18-2005 by Warriorbird]

Her husband? You mean the one that went to court to get all this money to care for her for the rest of her life.. and then when he got the settlement, he quickly began to change his story and work to kill her?

That husband?

[Ilvane]

That's just not true. Read the real facts on the case, PB.

-A

[CrystalTears]

Sicker [to me] is having someone starve to death because they didn't want the burden of caring for them anymore, but that's just my opinion.

Both options are horrible, but I think now it's about selfishness and money and not about what's best for her. Personally I think leaving her alone to live out her life until her own body gives out is best for her since we will never know what she is really feeling, thinking or going through. I wouldn't want to be the person to end that and then someday find that something could have been done.

[peam]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Personally I think leaving her alone to live out her life until her own body gives out is best for her since we will never know what she is really feeling, thinking or going through.

I'm pretty sure that's what her husband is trying to do.

Feeding tube =/= body.

[Warriorbird]

Riight. I'm sure she'd have been dead long before if her parents were footing the bill. Folks like you and Parkbandit curiously ignore the eight or so years it took her husband to come to the decision, as every form of possible therapy was exhausted, CT.

The woman has no chance. Ironically, those life-loving Republicans destroyed what may've been her only hope... stem cell therapy.


[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Warriorbird]

Never seen that Metallica "One" video, CT? I think being trapped inside a body'd be about the worst you could wish on anyone.

It's funny. This has given me new respect for the President. He's overturned the three branches of government, checks and balances, and dealt state's rights a lasting and potentially fatal blow. Real Republicans would be screaming. They don't exist anymore.

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Keller]

I'm glad that Washington is making such a good example of this family. Maybe we should use her latent uterus to justate the thousands of "babies" sitting in fertilization clinics waiting for donor uteri. That, afterall, would be "erring on the side of life."


Our society is a joke. A fucking joke.

If this brain-dead bitch was in Costa Rica she would have starved 15 fucking years ago when she couldn't survive without the help of modern medicine. I'm not saying we shouldn't make use of technology to further our own life-span. But we ought to realize when we're just propping up a dead body and avoiding the inevitable in order to postpone suffering as long as possible.

Yes, let's use the most modern tests to see what sort of brain activity she has. Let's see what hope lies ahead that she just might be able to eventually grow a cancerous tumor that will allow for a societally acceptable means of death because it seems that brain-dead white women don't deserve to starve to death like the rest of the fucking world.

It's a fucking joke.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
The woman has no chance. Ironically, those life-loving Republicans destroyed what may've been her only hope... stem cell therapy.



:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

[Warriorbird]

Another amusing thing is all the effort Bush had previously put into insuring that spouses got a choice in these matters. Operation Rescue calls though, and he jumps on a plane.

Of course, when it comes to killing criminals though... no life can be redeemed.

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Keller]

For those of you talking about who is footing the bill NPR just said that it is partially medi-care and partially a settlement from one of those massive mal-practice suits that the right chastised Edwards for.

[Warriorbird]

A short summary, from Orendis, who said it a lot better than I have, I think.

"The woman has been in a persistent vegetative state for more than a quarter of her life. Her husband received a million dollars 15 years ago over malpractice, and some of it was earmarked for her care. Anyone with hospice, life support, or caregiving assistance knows that the money is long gone. Her parents want him to continue paying for his wife's continued existence, even though the doctors say there is no hope of recovery: her mind was destroyed after being deprived of oxygen during a heart attack.

For fifteen years she has lingered on, and her uneducated parents insist that they are right and doctors are wrong. They misconstrue her body's natural reactions as signs of life. If one connects a corpse to live electricity, it still moves.

I won't even go into the fact that neither the legislative nor executive branches should be trying to sway this issue after the judicial has closed it. All I can express is a terrible disappointment that government would abuse this situation as a chance to showcase Republican dominance. What they really demonstrate is a growing gap between their perceptions and the will of the people."

[Ilvane]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Sicker [to me] is having someone starve to death because they didn't want the burden of caring for them anymore, but that's just my opinion.


Her husband never said anything of the like..he said that she didn't wish to be living like this. She expressed that to him.

What is there not to understand about her wishes? Her parents are strict Catholics who believe in life at all cost.

I don't think the legislature or President should be involved in this at all. It's creating one big slippery slope about where the government fits into our daily lives, and our choices.

We have the choice to die in dignity at this time..but will we in the future?

-A

[Jorddyn]

If I were married and wound up in that state, I would much prefer that my spouse made the decision than my parents and legislators.

Since I'm not married, I've placed the burden on my brother. I know he'll pull the plug if it is the right thing to do, while I fear it would be too hard on my parents and they'd keep my a vegetable forever.

The only ways I could see that her parents should have the right to make this decision are if he put her in this state, they were in the process of a divorce, or she named them in a living will. To legislate it just makes me ill.

Jorddyn

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Her husband never said anything of the like..he said that she didn't wish to be living like this. She expressed that to him.

What is there not to understand about her wishes? Her parents are strict Catholics who believe in life at all cost.

I don't think the legislature or President should be involved in this at all. It's creating one big slippery slope about where the government fits into our daily lives, and our choices.

We have the choice to die in dignity at this time..but will we in the future?

-A

So we're supposed to go on his word? Do we know for a fact that allowing him to end her life is what she wanted? No one knows what she really wants except her and she is unable to make that statement.

How quick we are to condemn women for letting her have the right to choose to end the life of an innocent, but we're so quick to end the life of someone just as living as an embryo.

We have the choice to die in dignity in this country... when we make that choice beforehand. Until then we are living beings and shouldn't be judged by each other of when a life is worthy of being destroyed.

Since the family couldn't decide on the decision of this woman, the government had to step in, and I see nothing wrong in that.

You mention that she was a Catholic. In my family, who are also Catholics, they believe in pro-life, mostly. They believe in preserving life at all costs. So stating that means that she would rather live, don't you think? But we don't know that. No one really does.

By the way, Warriorbird, the guy in "One", which are segments of the film "Johnny Get Your Gun" is about a man who is still responsive and alert to what was going on his life and requested to end his life. Same goes for the movie "Whose Life is it Anyway?" where a man who becomes paralyzed didn't want to continue living his life either. Again, someone who is responsive and able to make his own decisions. If Terry could do at least that, this would be easier to deal with.

[Warriorbird]

"We have the choice to die in dignity in this country... when we make that choice beforehand."

So, she deserves a death with no dignity.

"So we're supposed to go on his word?"

Wouldn't one assume a spouse was a better choice than parents?

"How quick we are to condemn women for letting her have the right to choose to end the life of an innocent,"

I'm not. The President and Congress doing this are. Irony.

White washing cruelty does not make it less so.

Because she can't respond, you want to doom her to a living hell for another thirty years? I guess we're a pretty sick country if people really believe this stuff. We deserve to lose our rights if we don't stand up for them.

"Since the family couldn't decide on the decision of this woman, the government had to step in, and I see nothing wrong in that. "

No. The family could not decide. Then it went to the court system like it was supposed to. Then Congress and the President decided to act against the Constitution to pander to their radical religious friends. A bunch of scared and stupid Democrats followed as well.

And now, people are celebrating it.

Johnny Get Your Gun (which I've read) is about the struggle to stop hidebound idiots like this from prolonging life when it wasn't desired.... when it was agony....when it was maddening torture that could not stop. Communication was not possible for most of it. If you somehow think that supports this miscarriage of justice, religion, and politics and abuse of the Constitution, well, I still don't hope you go through what my family and I've been through and what this woman's husband has been through. I wouldn't wish it on a terrible person, much less simply a well-meaning but unenlightened one.


[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[DeV]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
You mention that she was a Catholic. In my family, who are also Catholics, they believe in pro-life, mostly. They believe in preserving life at all costs. So stating that means that she would rather live, don't you think? But we don't know that. No one really does.

That may also be the reason why the husband has not filed for divorce. So I am wondering if this woman is kept alive because of a law being passed, that leaves few options for the husband. 15 years on life support. Come on. That's ridiculous in her type of condition. I could see if she was *only* in a comma, but even the doctors have stated there is no hope for recovery.

Even If I didn't have a living will I would not want the government deciding on my life or death. That should be reserved for the parents or siblings only if there is no significant other. This is just a fucked up situation.

[Warriorbird]

The same thrilling folks responsible for this would be responsible for an SO of yours not getting a choice ever, DeV. Gotta love it.

[xtc]

Michael & Terry Schiavo the facts:

Michael has denied his wife medical treatment, has not allowed rehabilitative therapy since the “collapse”.

Within 48 hours of the “collapse” Michael was at the hospital with his lawyer.

He asked a nurse if there was anything that could be done to hurry up Terry's death. He also said "When is that bitch going to die"

Michael has used part of the medical malpractice award to pay lawyers to convince the courts that they should remove Terry’s feeding tube.

Terry's brother Bobby has said that Michael Schiavo has a violent temper and attacked him once.

Terry's father noted that Terri use to have bruises on her when he would visit. Terri said they were from "horsing around.

Terry's friend Jackie has stated under oath that the day before Terri's "collapse"
she spoke to Terri and Terri was very upset & Terri said she had just a huge fight with Michael.

In 1991 a bone scan of Terri showed that she revealed had a healed broken right femur bone and healed fractures in Terri's ribs, pelvis, spine, and ankle. The radiologist, Dr. W. Campbell Walker, concluded that Terri had "a history of trauma."

Michael’s ex-girlfriend claimed Michael stalked her after their relationship and that he is a violent and dangerous man.

14 independent medical professionals (including 6 neurologists) have stated that Terry isn't in a permanent vegetative state.

Dr. Victor Gambone a Doctor hand picked by Michael Schiavo who has seen Terry several times said He was surprised by Terry's level of awareness.

Article 1 (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12616010%5E7583,00.html)

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by xtc]

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
She made provisions with the husband before the incident. Unfortunately, they didn't make a traditional living will, so it's a case of the parents vs the husband. If he'd been after her money, he'd have tried to have this done quickly. He didn't. Discarding that, these people want to keep her alive in a vegetative state forever. That's sick.

[Edited on 3-18-2005 by Warriorbird]


I would suggest you do some more research and/or use the correct terminology. First, the husband "claims" she had a living will. Second, she is not in a vegetative state per se. Her whole "state" is in doubt depending which expert you ask. Third, there is strong speculation her husband had something to do with her condition. If you are going to comment on a situation, at least comment on them accurately.


Stealth

[Stealth]

I have to love all of this "the government is out to get us" shit. I will be the first to admit that the government has done and will always do some stupid shit. Her FAMILY is the one who brought all this about. The government didn't go "Oh wait, hold the fuck up here a sec, let's go fuck this shit up and stick our nose in where it isn't wanted! Go get em Jeb!" Her family went way out of the way to get this thing noticed and into the courts. I think if it were some other issue which all of the anti-government lackeys are hard on and the courts and the legislature refused to hear, you would be screaming cover-up, and governmental abuse and anything else you could scream because you didn't get "your way". Try seeing things from someone else's point of view.


Stealth

-Pro-government on this issue.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"We have the choice to die in dignity in this country... when we make that choice beforehand."

So, she deserves a death with no dignity.

Way to assume that's what I meant. I meant that we have the choice to die when we state beforehand, not the dignity part. I don't think anyone deserves to die except perhaps those who murder innocent lives themselves. Thanks to what is happening to Terry, I am even more pro-life than I used to be.


"So we're supposed to go on his word?"

Wouldn't one assume a spouse was a better choice than parents?

Not necessarily. Why? Because they shared a bed and had sex together? You don't know their relationship and what they discussed in detail, so don't assume he knows her better. If this is what she wanted that he knows so well, why is this going on 15 years later?


"How quick we are to condemn women for letting her have the right to choose to end the life of an innocent,"

Because she can't respond, you want to doom her to a living hell for another thirty years? I guess we're a pretty sick country if people really believe this stuff. We deserve to lose our rights if we don't stand up for them.

Lose our rights if we don't stand up for them? Thank God you're not in charge. Let's kill anything that can't live for itself. Let's kill all the old people in homes who do nothing but sleep and eat. Let's kill all unwanted pregnancies. Let's kill all babies in ICU. Christ.

You keep mentioning this hell she is going through as though you know exactly what she is feeling. No one knows for sure what she is feeling and/or going through. So rather than go through an extra two weeks of for-sure hell by having her spend her last days starving to death, I'd rather let her live.


No. The family could not decide. Then it went to the court system like it was supposed to. Then Congress and the President decided to act against the Constitution to pander to their radical religious friends. A bunch of scared and stupid Democrats followed as well.

No, read what Stealth had to say above.


Johnny Get Your Gun (which I've read) is about the struggle to stop hidebound idiots like this from prolonging life when it wasn't desired....

Do we know that she doesn't desire her life to continue? Nope.


when it was agony....

Still speculation. Yet you want to add it to by having her starve to death. How kind of you.


when it was maddening torture that could not stop.

Whatever rationalization you want to help you sleep at night when you decide to put a woman to death who didn't ask for it.


If you somehow think that supports this miscarriage of justice, religion, and politics and abuse of the Constitution, well, I still don't hope you go through what my family and I've been through and what this woman's husband has been through. I wouldn't wish it on a terrible person, much less simply a well-meaning but unenlightened one.

The Constitution says that I have the right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Sorry but the starvation til death seems like taking my life to me.

And sorry if I don't have the firsthand knowledge of unplugging someone and wishing it on me because I don't agree with your views. These are my beliefs and views and I'm tired of people claiming me ignorant or stupid for them, such as yourself. Don't agree with me? That's fine, but quit slamming me for them.

[Edited on 3/22/2005 by CrystalTears]

[HarmNone]

I cannot for the life of me understand why an MRI, or a PET scan, has not been done on this woman. I've seen the CAT scans (they look like those of a dead brain, frankly), but an MRI (and, especially, a PET scan) would give a definitive answer as to what's going on, if anything, in what's left of Terri's cerebral cortex.

These tests are expensive, yes; however, it would seem to be the most intelligent thing to do, at this point. At least, then, both sides would know exactly where they stood with regard to brain function.

[Warriorbird]

Like you haven't slammed anyone for the opposite, CT? Like the PR campaign from the Republican spin centers and Operation Rescue ain't mighty thick. The husband has been painted as demon. You say I'm acting on speculation. Where's the proof of that?

From that Australian News article,

"There are claims by Terri's family about his violent nature and questions about the circumstances of her collapse."

You don't think they would claim that to get their way? You don't think they could influence some nurse who wanted to be famous?

And Stealth, just because some folks struggle to get something made an issue does not mean the government should take the ball and run with it. I'm sure you're more than willing to accept that.

Admittedly, a lot of folks who are on his side who are in favor of lots of government intervention in other instances. I'm generally not.

During the history of our country up till this point, we've had a process of justice that works like this. You appeal up, to potentially the Supreme Court, and decisions are made based on precedent set by other similar cases and interpretations of the Consitution.

That's all been discarded here. 19 judges have heard this case. But now, things work differently.... if you have a case that you disagree with the decision of the judicial branch on... you take it to Congress. The government's system of checks and balances has broken down, all because they heard the phrase "culture of life".

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[CrystalTears]

If you can point out where I have slammed someone for their opinion, views or beliefs, I'll gladly take back my statement to you. However I can say with some certainty that I've never wished harm or despair on anyone just because they didn't agree with me.

What proof can there be about speculation? No one knows what she is going through, how she is feeling, yet you do? Where is YOUR proof?

I'm agreeing with the government on this because I think there should be some sort of mandate or legislation that states what should be done in a situation such as Terry's so that we as a society don't have to go through this again. I'd rather know that for now, when nothing is for sure, to lean towareds life than death. Death is permanent and can't be reversed, and I'm a believer of miracles and future possibilities. Take the life away and no one will ever know if more life could be given to her later on.

[Warriorbird]

I wish other folks were believers in miracles and future possibilities. Then again, stem cell therapy is even considered "against God" when the children died from natural causes. What's resulting isn't some sort of mandate... but the breakdown of one of the more logical aspects of our system of government.

And slamming isn't necessarily "wishing harm or despair."

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[HarmNone]

If a PET scan could prove that there was no activity in the cerebral cortex (it is alleged to have been replaced, almost totally, by spinal fluid), would that satisfy those who would continue heroic measures to maintain her in her current state?

Please keep in mind that cerbebral tissue cannot be replaced. I don't care what is done, once it's gone, it's gone.

[StrayRogue]

Isn't it sort of against that Christian mandate to even let her be on those machines? Surely if God wanted her to live He would keep her alive when the tubes are taken out right? Isn't that what you naive fundamantalists are meant to believe?

I say let the poor girl just expire. Theres more humane ways of ending a sad and tortured life than starving to death though.

[Warriorbird]

Seems logical. Doubt anybody's functioning from a logic level though, HarmNone.

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Warriorbird]

Yeah. Those more humane ways got Kevorkian jailed however. The mere thought mysteriously infuriates our Christian ruled friends on the right almost more than this does.

[StrayRogue]

Ah Religion can be so frustratingly hypocritical at times.

[HarmNone]

Since the government has decided to take a hand in this, write your senators, and your congressmen, and demand a PET scan for this poor woman. An MRI cannot be done, unless experimental electrodes that were placed in her brain several years ago are removed before the procedure. However, a PET scan does not require removal of the electrodes and would be definitive in diagnosing a permanent vegetative state.

So...get writing if you believe strongly that this woman should be given the most humane treatment available. First, we need the most modern diagnostic tools used.

[xtc]

Respect for human life should be a human value not just a Christian one. Although I am not a practicing Christian, I value life. This fight goes beyond religious belief, people from many backgrounds and faiths are on the side of Terry's parent.

I think I have demonstrated that Michael's motives are more than suspect.

Harm-None raises a good question why hasn't Michael Schiavo allowed a PET scan or other testing on Terry??????????

So we have Terry's brother, father, friends and Michael Schiavo's ex-girlfriend who has seen evidence of Michael's violence. Plus a plethora of broken bones on Terry.

The story of how Terry's heart stopped beating is very suspect. Michael claims it is from Bulimia. I have a very close family member who suffers from bulimia and I have been to visit her at three treatment centres. Over the past 10 + years of accompanying her to therapy, treatment centres and 12 step meetings I have never heard of a case of a heart stop beating from bulimia. I know it is possible but it is extremely rare. I think Michael Schiavo has a lot to fear if Terry ever recovers.

As I have stated before:

Within 48 hours of Terry's collapse Michael had a lawyer with him at the hospital.

Michael has denied Terry any rehabilitative therapy from DAY 1.

The Federal Government has stuck its nose into many state issues in the past and liberals for the most part have been silent.

It was the Federal Government that forced integration in schools in Mississippi and enforced it with the National Guard. (of course a good thing)

When Clinton’s Government used the FBI to rip a child away from his family in the middle of the night and return him to Cuba the liberals were silent.

Every Federal program we have could be a violation of the 10th amendment.

However what the Federal Government is doing could be seen as upholding the 14th amendment of the Constitution.

“nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws”

Interesting enough a family friend of the Schindlers says that Terry has twice verbally responded to questions from him.

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1111491324050_92?hub=topstories



[Edited on 3-22-2005 by xtc]

[Warriorbird]

"I think I have demonstrated that Michael's motives are more than suspect. "

Like hell you have. You've even quoted obviously incorrect information and information that didn't exist in your sources.

"Within 48 hours of Terry's collapse Michael had a lawyer with him at the hospital.

Michael has denied Terry any rehabilitative therapy from DAY 1. "

Could it be that a malpractice case had just been settled? Could it be because she only has brain stem functions? He spent eight years exhaustively trying therapy. This has been a 15 year process. The settlement has been spent throughout that period.

No, really.

If you or any of the religious fanatics had studied the situation a bit more, people can easily delude themselves into thinking brain stem action is response.

I think HarmNone's idea had a lot of merit. I've already proceeded to write my reps and Senators.



[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[CrystalTears]

I love how you call the people who are supporting life "deluding" ourselves, and yet you sit here and say that nothing she does is real, just reflexes and responses. But I'm supposed to believe the "she's in agony and living in hell" theories? Whatever.

[Warriorbird]

Just as soon as I'm supposed to believe a woman with only a brain stem can spontanteously grow the rest of a brain.

Just as soon as I'm supposed to believe the checks and balance systems that's kept our nation going should be destroyed.

Just as soon as I'm supposed to believe they know better than 19 judges.

Just as soon as religious faith trumps science and government and we suddenly ARE living in Iran.

About then.


[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird

The woman has no chance. Ironically, those life-loving Republicans destroyed what may've been her only hope... stem cell therapy.


Oh yes.. the old STEM CELLS WILL MAKE HER ALIVE AGAIN argument. I keep forgetting that stem cells are the cure all super answer to all of our biological ills.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Warriorbird]

We wouldn't know one way or another because we like to make governmental research decisions based on religion. There hasn't even been a chance to discover.

So until then, eye roll away! Unless you know of some other cure besides, well, I dunno, that religious fervor that dictates your party's actions. I'm sure you know many faith healers.

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
We wouldn't know one way or another because we like to make governmental research decisions based on religion. There hasn't even been a chance to discover.

So until then, eye roll away! Unless you know of some other cure besides, well, I dunno, that religious fervor that dictates your party's actions. I'm sure you know many faith healers.

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

I personally don't agree with not federally funding stem cell research.. but it is not proven to be the end all cure all that the Democrats claim it will be.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"I think I have demonstrated that Michael's motives are more than suspect. "

Like hell you have. You've even quoted obviously incorrect information and information that didn't exist in your sources.

"Within 48 hours of Terry's collapse Michael had a lawyer with him at the hospital.

Michael has denied Terry any rehabilitative therapy from DAY 1. "

Could it be that a malpractice case had just been settled? Could it be because she only has brain stem functions? He spent eight years exhaustively trying therapy. This has been a 15 year process. The settlement has been spent throughout that period.

No, really.

If you or any of the religious fanatics had studied the situation a bit more, people can easily delude themselves into thinking brain stem action is response.

I think HarmNone's idea had a lot of merit. I've already proceeded to write my reps and Senators.



[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

My information is 100% accurate. I only posted one article so it didn't contain all information.

Michael had a lawyer 24 hours after the collapse, nothing had been settled yet.

Michael didn't even try rehabilatative theapy not even in right after it happen. Experts at the time believed it would have helped.

It is you who knows nothing of this case. A nurse has stated that Michael said "when will this bitch die"

http://www.inclusiondaily.com/archives/04/10/21/102304flschiavomichael.htm

I have stated before I am not a religious person.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I personally don't agree with not federally funding stem cell research.. but it is not proven to be the end all cure all that the Democrats claim it will be.

Give it time. I'm not saying it will cure everything, I'm simply saying it is a very promising therapy that is in its infancy. Think computers in the 1960s.

Jorddyn

[xtc]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I personally don't agree with not federally funding stem cell research.. but it is not proven to be the end all cure all that the Democrats claim it will be.

Give it time. I'm not saying it will cure everything, I'm simply saying it is a very promising therapy that is in its infancy. Think computers in the 1960s.

Jorddyn

Adult Stem cell research has paid off, so far embryonic stell cell research has produced nothing. Many other nations fund and engage in embryonic stem cell research, the US engages in embryonic stem cell research as well thanks to the late Howard Hughes. Infantile stem cells don't need to come from the embryo, they can come from the umbilical cord.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I personally don't agree with not federally funding stem cell research.. but it is not proven to be the end all cure all that the Democrats claim it will be.

Give it time. I'm not saying it will cure everything, I'm simply saying it is a very promising therapy that is in its infancy. Think computers in the 1960s.

Jorddyn

Just because the research is in it's infancy does not mean that stem cell research will be as profound and important as the advent of the computer.

We don't know. Either way.

And the bill did not STOP stem cell research... it's still going on.

We'll see how successful it is.

[Warriorbird]

That's from a disability rights site, xtc, who're going after this as hard as they can for publicity. With as much riding on this as there is, I'm sure they can dig up folks to say that Micheal said just about anything circumstantially.

[Ilvane]

Here is a timeline..

xtc, I don't know what your sources are, but they are not accurate at all.

1990
On February 25, Terri Schiavo, 26, collapses in her home from what doctors believe is a potassium imbalance. Oxygen flow to her brain is interrupted for about five minutes, causing permanent damage. A court rules that she is incapacitated and her husband, Michael Schiavo, is appointed as her legal guardian.

1992
A jury in Pinellas County, Florida, awards $1 million in a malpractice judgment; $700,000 of that is placed into a trust fund to pay for Terri's care.

1993
In February, Terri's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, fall out with Michael Schiavo and begin to schedule their visits to Terri on different days. The Schindlers later try and fail to have Michael removed as Terri's guardian.

1998
Michael petitions a court to have his wife's feeding tube removed.

2000
In February, Florida Circuit Judge George W. Greer rules that Terri's feeding tube can be removed.

2001
The feeding tube is removed on April 24, but reinserted two days later after a ruling by Florida Circuit Court Judge Frank Quesada. In October, the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals issues an indefinite stay while it hears the case.

2002
In a week of appeals and court hearings, three doctors -- two chosen by Michael Schiavo and one chosen by the court -- testify that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state without hope of recovery. Two doctors chosen by her parents say that she can recover. In November, Greer rules the feeding tube can be removed in January 2003, but stays that order in December pending another appeal.

2003
On Greer's order, after his previous ruling is upheld, Terri's feeding tube is removed for the second time on October 15. Six days later, the Florida Legislature passes "Terri's Law," allowing Florida Gov. Jeb Bush to stay the judge's order and direct that the feeding tube be reinserted. Bush issues that stay two hours later.

On October 27, Michael Schiavo tells CNN's Larry King that his wife didn't want to be kept alive artificially. "This is Terri's wish, this is Terri's choice," he said. "And I'm going to follow that wish if it's the last thing I can do for Terri."

2004
The Florida Supreme Court declares "Terri's Law" unconstitutional. Gov. Bush appeals to the U.S. Supreme Court.

From a CNN article:

Michael Schiavo, who was not at the hearing, visited his wife at a hospice in Pinellas Park on Monday. He said it is going to be hard when she finally dies.

"I've cried many tears so far, trust me," he told CNN's Larry King. "I made a promise to Terri. I'm going to stick by her side, and I'm going to do this for her. Terri is not a piece of property that you pass back and forth. "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This whole fight reminds me of Solomon in the bible, when they were fighting back and forth over a baby, and one mother wanted what was best for the child, and was willing to give anything for her..

The husband wants what she WANTED. Who the hell are the politicians to say what she should do with her life??

I also want to know if they are going to take this law and pass it for every person in a persistant vegetative state and keep them alive, and also pay for the care of all of those people. This is the impact a law like this would do...People should be able to choose to die in dignity, and in this case, I think her husband would know better.

My mom and I talked about this last night. It seemed that she would have told my father more about what she would wish in that situation that my grandfather. Makes sense, actually.

Who's business is this of the government?

I'm also showing you a letter he wrote in 2003, the first time his wifes feeding tube was removed. If you read this and still think the same way about him..I'd be surprised.

Oct 20, 2003

Statement By Michael Schiavo


Last Wednesday, my wife's feeding tube was removed.
For over 6 years, I have struggled with the Schindlers in court. On Wednesday, I joined them in grief. I understand what the Schindlers are going through at this time. I feel the same loss.

For years after this happened to Terri, I tried desperately to find a cure for her. I went from one doctor to another. Almost all of them told me there was no possibility she would recover. Any doctor that gave me a glimmer of hope that some new treatment or therapy would work was given free reign with Terri. I would do anything to make her well.

I took Terri to California. I stayed with her while doctors performed an experimental procedure to implant electrodes in her brain to stimulate its function. I spent months working with her - hopeful of a cure. Months later, the doctors told me the electrodes were not working.

I took Terri to Mediplex, in Bradenton, Florida, which is a residential rehabilitation facility that specializes in brain injuries. She spent months there in intensive physical, speech, and occupational therapy and testing.

Finally, the doctors and therapist told me and the Schindlers they could do nothing more for her. I hired a private duty aide 8 hours a day to take Terri on outings to parks and museums trying to stimulate her - looking for any sign of life, any flicker of hope. There was none - ever.

Over the years, I had three swallowing tests performed on Terri in the hope that some of the therapies would allow her to be weaned off the feeding tube. The test all showed no change, and I was advised she could not swallow food. Even now, the nursing home staff says that sometimes Terri gags and chokes on the moisture from the swabs they use to moisten her lips.

The reports you heard from nursing home aides that Terri was responsive years ago are not true. I would give anything if they were. Those aides cared for Terri during the time that I was desperately seeking a cure for her. I was so frustrated that I could not help Terri. I am sure that I was sometimes unkind to the aides - even shouted at them. This was not because I wanted Terri dead, but because I desperately wanted her alive. I blamed myself because I could not bring her back.

It seemed to me, during that time, that the aides never did enough for Terri. Some days they did not put her makeup on. I would storm into the nursing home insisting that they do so. I knew Terri always wanted to look her best. Sometimes, the aides did not get her dressed and sitting up until late in the morning. They did not always get her hair combed. They sometimes failed to give her vitamins and medications on time. At each of those failures, I became enraged and lashed out. I felt so helpless. Each small infraction reminded me how powerless I was to really help Terri. I admit that I yelled at the aides and I am now deeply sorry for that behavior. Much like the Schindlers now, I stubbornly resisted and suggestion that Terri was in a persistent vegetative state and would never get better.

I never wanted Terri to die. I still don't. After more than seven years of desperately searching for a cure for Terri, the death of my own mother helped me realize that I was fooling myself. More important, I was hiding behind my hope, and selfishly ignoring Terri's wishes. I wanted my wife to be with me so much that I denied her true condition.

Terri told me on several occasions before this happened that she would not want to live in her current condition. If we had been older, I am sure she would have signed a living will making it clear that she did not to be kept alive on tubes and machines. She never had the chance.

That left me to carry out her wishes. It has been hard. In fact, it is the hardest thing I have ever done. In the end, I did what I believe Terri would have wanted me to do.

Some people do not agree with the decisions the court made to remove Terri's feeding tube. I struggle to accept it myself. But I know in my heart that it is right, and it is what Terri wants. There is no longer any realistic hope of Terri's recovery. Perhaps there never was, but I had to try - just as the Schindlers have tried. The reality is that Terri left us 13 years ago, and none of us can bring her back.

Terri's parents and family may visit with her as much as they choose in the days to come. I, and my friends and relatives, will be there as well to spend time with Terri, as we all grieve. Please pray for us all.


-A

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Ilvane
The husband wants what she WANTED. Who the hell are the politicians to say what she should do with her life??

Because no one knows for sure what she wanted, since all we have is what he says. More of the "he said/she said" with no documented proof. So I'm all for someone stepping in and siding on the side of life since that's our constitutional right to have a life, not being deprived of it because it seems hopeless.


I also want to know if they are going to take this law and pass it for every person in a persistant vegetative state and keep them alive, and also pay for the care of all of those people.

If this country has the money to invade a country for billions of dollars, they can certainly use some money to help keep people alive. How often does this sort of situation happen and to how many people? Why can't this country, as a society, help those people live? I'm still not understanding why this is such a horrible thing to keep someone alive when nothing is known of what they really want.


This is the impact a law like this would do...People should be able to choose to die in dignity, and in this case, I think her husband would know better.

And I disagree that he would necessarily know what's better for her, and that letting her starve to death is dying with dignity.

If you don't have a living will, accept that society will keep you alive. Yeah, we're such bastards, making you live. I say make that will now so that us deluded and selfish people don't keep you alive.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Here is a timeline..

xtc, I don't know what your sources are, but they are not accurate at all.

1990
On February 25, Terri Schiavo, 26, collapses in her home from what doctors believe is a potassium imbalance. Oxygen flow to her brain is interrupted for about five minutes, causing permanent damage. A court rules that she is incapacitated and her husband, Michael Schiavo, is appointed as her legal guardian.

1992
A jury in Pinellas County, Florida, awards $1 million in a malpractice judgment; $700,000 of that is placed into a trust fund to pay for Terri's care.

1993
In February, Terri's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, fall out with Michael Schiavo and begin to schedule their visits to Terri on different days. The Schindlers later try and fail to have Michael removed as Terri's guardian.

1998
Michael petitions a court to have his wife's feeding tube removed.

2000
In February, Florida Circuit Judge George W. Greer rules that Terri's feeding tube can be removed.

2001
The feeding tube is removed on April 24, but reinserted two days later after a ruling by Florida Circuit Court Judge Frank Quesada. In October, the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals issues an indefinite stay while it hears the case.

2002
In a week of appeals and court hearings, three doctors -- two chosen by Michael Schiavo and one chosen by the court -- testify that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state without hope of recovery. Two doctors chosen by her parents say that she can recover. In November, Greer rules the feeding tube can be removed in January 2003, but stays that order in December pending another appeal.

2003
On Greer's order, after his previous ruling is upheld, Terri's feeding tube is removed for the second time on October 15. Six days later, the Florida Legislature passes "Terri's Law," allowing Florida Gov. Jeb Bush to stay the judge's order and direct that the feeding tube be reinserted. Bush issues that stay two hours later.

On October 27, Michael Schiavo tells CNN's Larry King that his wife didn't want to be kept alive artificially. "This is Terri's wish, this is Terri's choice," he said. "And I'm going to follow that wish if it's the last thing I can do for Terri."

2004
The Florida Supreme Court declares "Terri's Law" unconstitutional. Gov. Bush appeals to the U.S. Supreme Court.

From a CNN article:

Michael Schiavo, who was not at the hearing, visited his wife at a hospice in Pinellas Park on Monday. He said it is going to be hard when she finally dies.

"I've cried many tears so far, trust me," he told CNN's Larry King. "I made a promise to Terri. I'm going to stick by her side, and I'm going to do this for her. Terri is not a piece of property that you pass back and forth. "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This whole fight reminds me of Solomon in the bible, when they were fighting back and forth over a baby, and one mother wanted what was best for the child, and was willing to give anything for her..

The husband wants what she WANTED. Who the hell are the politicians to say what she should do with her life??

I also want to know if they are going to take this law and pass it for every person in a persistant vegetative state and keep them alive, and also pay for the care of all of those people. This is the impact a law like this would do...People should be able to choose to die in dignity, and in this case, I think her husband would know better.

My mom and I talked about this last night. It seemed that she would have told my father more about what she would wish in that situation that my grandfather. Makes sense, actually.

Who's business is this of the government?

I'm also showing you a letter he wrote in 2003, the first time his wifes feeding tube was removed. If you read this and still think the same way about him..I'd be surprised.

Oct 20, 2003

Statement By Michael Schiavo


Last Wednesday, my wife's feeding tube was removed.
For over 6 years, I have struggled with the Schindlers in court. On Wednesday, I joined them in grief. I understand what the Schindlers are going through at this time. I feel the same loss.

For years after this happened to Terri, I tried desperately to find a cure for her. I went from one doctor to another. Almost all of them told me there was no possibility she would recover. Any doctor that gave me a glimmer of hope that some new treatment or therapy would work was given free reign with Terri. I would do anything to make her well.

I took Terri to California. I stayed with her while doctors performed an experimental procedure to implant electrodes in her brain to stimulate its function. I spent months working with her - hopeful of a cure. Months later, the doctors told me the electrodes were not working.

I took Terri to Mediplex, in Bradenton, Florida, which is a residential rehabilitation facility that specializes in brain injuries. She spent months there in intensive physical, speech, and occupational therapy and testing.

Finally, the doctors and therapist told me and the Schindlers they could do nothing more for her. I hired a private duty aide 8 hours a day to take Terri on outings to parks and museums trying to stimulate her - looking for any sign of life, any flicker of hope. There was none - ever.

Over the years, I had three swallowing tests performed on Terri in the hope that some of the therapies would allow her to be weaned off the feeding tube. The test all showed no change, and I was advised she could not swallow food. Even now, the nursing home staff says that sometimes Terri gags and chokes on the moisture from the swabs they use to moisten her lips.

The reports you heard from nursing home aides that Terri was responsive years ago are not true. I would give anything if they were. Those aides cared for Terri during the time that I was desperately seeking a cure for her. I was so frustrated that I could not help Terri. I am sure that I was sometimes unkind to the aides - even shouted at them. This was not because I wanted Terri dead, but because I desperately wanted her alive. I blamed myself because I could not bring her back.

It seemed to me, during that time, that the aides never did enough for Terri. Some days they did not put her makeup on. I would storm into the nursing home insisting that they do so. I knew Terri always wanted to look her best. Sometimes, the aides did not get her dressed and sitting up until late in the morning. They did not always get her hair combed. They sometimes failed to give her vitamins and medications on time. At each of those failures, I became enraged and lashed out. I felt so helpless. Each small infraction reminded me how powerless I was to really help Terri. I admit that I yelled at the aides and I am now deeply sorry for that behavior. Much like the Schindlers now, I stubbornly resisted and suggestion that Terri was in a persistent vegetative state and would never get better.

I never wanted Terri to die. I still don't. After more than seven years of desperately searching for a cure for Terri, the death of my own mother helped me realize that I was fooling myself. More important, I was hiding behind my hope, and selfishly ignoring Terri's wishes. I wanted my wife to be with me so much that I denied her true condition.

Terri told me on several occasions before this happened that she would not want to live in her current condition. If we had been older, I am sure she would have signed a living will making it clear that she did not to be kept alive on tubes and machines. She never had the chance.

That left me to carry out her wishes. It has been hard. In fact, it is the hardest thing I have ever done. In the end, I did what I believe Terri would have wanted me to do.

Some people do not agree with the decisions the court made to remove Terri's feeding tube. I struggle to accept it myself. But I know in my heart that it is right, and it is what Terri wants. There is no longer any realistic hope of Terri's recovery. Perhaps there never was, but I had to try - just as the Schindlers have tried. The reality is that Terri left us 13 years ago, and none of us can bring her back.

Terri's parents and family may visit with her as much as they choose in the days to come. I, and my friends and relatives, will be there as well to spend time with Terri, as we all grieve. Please pray for us all.


-A

I have watched Michael on CNN a few times and he is less than believeable.

You have given a timeline of major events, none of which contradict what I have posted.

Michael has a history of violence and Terry has a history of broken bones. I doubt he has Terry's best interests at heart.

He didn't remember until 1998 when he petitioned to have her tube removed that she wanted "no tubes" this was supposedly derived from a casual conversation. I think if this was really her wish she would have told her parents, her friends, none of which she did.

Terry is a practicing Catholic, like it or not this must be factored into what are Terry's wishes.

I can understand why you feel the way you do Angela. However I don't trust Michael Schiavo and I find his motives circumspect.

[xtc]

This statement was put out a few years ago in respone to statements by Michael Schiavo regarding what happened in the past 10 years.

Public Statement of the Schindler Family in Response to the Statement of Michael Schiavo
By Schindler Family


"We, the Schindler family, wish to respond to the statement of Michael Schiavo published by the media on October 20, 2003. Mr. Schiavo's statement is an exercise in self-justification that completely rewrites the true history of his efforts to have our Terri put to death by starvation and dehydration.

"Here are the facts that Mr. Schiavo has hidden in his statement:

"Terri, on Mr. Schiavo's orders, has had no therapy of any kind since the Fall of 1991.

"At a medical malpractice trial in November 1992, Mr. Schiavo swore to the jury that he would devote any jury award to Terri's care and rehabilitation and he promised under oath that he would take care of Terri for the rest of his life.

"After securing an award of over $700,000 for Terri's care, Mr. Schiavo did an about-face, and has spent the last 10 years in a determined campaign to cause Terri's death.

"This campaign began within a few months of the malpractice award, when, in mid-1993, Mr. Schiavo had a 'do not resuscitate' order placed in Terri's medical chart.

In June of 1993 Mr. Schiavo refused to allow treatment of an infection Terri had developed, later admitting under oath that he expected the infection to progress to a fatal sepsis that would kill Terri.

"In 1995, contrary to his promises to the jury that he would honor his marriage vows, Mr. Schiavo, who still pretends to be Terri's 'loving' and 'grieving' husband, began living with another woman, by whom he has conceived two children out-of-wedlock. He calls this woman his 'fiancee', even while his wife Terri lays starving and dehydrating to death in hospice for the terminally ill---to which he consigned her three years ago so that she would receive no therapy.

"It was not until 1998, when Mr. Schiavo hired Mr. Felos, that Mr. Schiavo suddenly 'remembered' that Terri had made some vague remarks about not wanting to be sustained on anything 'artificial' if she became incapacitated.

"When he promised the malpractice jury back in 1993 that he would take care of Terri for the rest of his life, Mr. Schiavo said nothing to the jury about Terri not wanting to be sustained on anything 'artificial.'

"Mr. Schiavo's crocodile tears and his statement that 'I struggle with' the Court's order to starve and dehydrate Terri defy belief. That order is the end result of Mr. Schiavo's utter determination to see Terri dead so that he can marry his 'fiancee.'

"Even though he has no Court order authorizing his actions, Mr. Schiavo has not only removed the feeding tube that has sustained our Terri for 13 years, but has also ordered that no attempt be made to feed Terri by mouth, even if she could be trained to take sustenance orally.

"On Saturday, October 18, 2003, one of Mr. Schiavo's team of lawyers refused to allow our Terri to receive her final Holy Communion. This lawyer would not even allow Msgr. Malanowski to place a miniscule piece of the Host on her tongue. Perhaps Michael fears that if Terri can swallow a piece of the Host, the whole world will know he is starving a helpless woman who can take sustenance by mouth.

"Mr. Schiavo has spent the great bulk of Terri's malpractice award on legal fees for Mr. Felos, in an effort to have Terri killed. He spent nothing on Terri's therapy and rehabilitation---contrary to the promises he made to the jury, under oath, more than ten years ago.


"We cannot allow Mr. Schiavo's lies to go unanswered. We pray that God will see to it that justice is done and that our Terri's life is delivered from the clutches of this ruthless man, who dares to pretend that he is grieving with us over what he has done to Terri."

Robert Schindler, Mary Schindler, Robert Schindler. Jr. and Suzanne Schindler

[xtc]

The "woman's not brain dead. We got to stop calling her that," says Jacksonville neurologist Jacob Green, who says a closer examination would be a good thing for Schiavo. Her parents asked him to review a videotape of their daughter a few years back. Dr. Green's conclusion: Schiavo feels hunger, she feels pain.

He also says traditional brain stimulating drugs and physical therapy should be tried on Schiavo. A brain scan, he says, is crucial.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/topstories/news-article.aspx?storyid=34279

[Warriorbird]

Let's break it down.

This is stuff put out by her folks. This is a neurologist given a videotape by her folks.

19 judges later, they've got to go to Congress.

You also neglect, like they do, the fact that he was declared her legal guardian.

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Parkbandit]

My issue with this case is you have Michael at the courts, sueing for money to take care of his wife for "the rest of her life". He didn't say that once this money was secured, he would try and accelerate the end of her life by starving her to death. Her wish for not being kept alive in this manner was never an issue or even mentioned when he was trying to get some money for malpractice.. and now he's all about "her" life wishes.

Since her true wishes are not in writing.. how again are we supposed to trust this guy to have her best interests in mind?

[Parkbandit]

And why the fuck are we starving her to death? If she was a god damn lab rat, PETA would be bitching up a storm.

If you are going to kill her, then kill her dammit. End it quickly and painlessly.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Let's break it down.

This is stuff put out by her folks. This is a neurologist given a videotape by her folks.

19 judges later, they've got to go to Congress.

You also neglect, like they do, the fact that he was declared her legal guardian.

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

Yeah you can't trust her parents they just liars with a hidden agenda.

The abusive legal guardian who won't allow his wife therapy despite mdeical experts saying it would have helped her.

The guardian with a new squeeze and kid.

The guardian who said when will this bitch die.

yeah lets break it down

[Warriorbird]

The fellow who's taken care of her for 15 years. If it was the parents' responsibility and on the parents' money, I'm sure the malpractice money wouldn't be there and she'd be dead.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
And why the fuck are we starving her to death? If she was a god damn lab rat, PETA would be bitching up a storm.

If you are going to kill her, then kill her dammit. End it quickly and painlessly.

I totally agree that we should. Unfortunately, that is illegal.

Don't ask for logic. I can't give you any.

Jorddyn

[CrystalTears]

The parents had at one point, since Michael wanted to get on with his life, offered to help him try to get a divorce so that they could take the responsibility of caring for her. He refused. Personally I think he's staying married to her and getting the tube removed so that he can claim his million dollar bonus of "caring" for a brain-damaged woman.

If he cared so much about what she really wanted, she wouldn't have been on any machines and not resusitated long ago. Amazing that all of a sudden he remembered what she wanted. For someone that adores her so much, he sure couldn't keep something as important as her life expectations in his noggin long enough to end this years ago.

[Warriorbird]

It isn't a "million dollar bonus". What he was offered was more than he'll recieve.

[Ravenstorm]

So he's also guilty for not demanding she be allowed to die immediately. You know, if I loved someone I'd want to make certain there was no hope at all before I decided to petition the courts for that person's death.

Oh, and let's not forget in this entire arguement the completely neutral, third party court appointed neurologists who also agreed that she's in a persistent vegetative state and that there's no hope at all that she'll ever recover. Or that seven years of investigation have not found a single instance of the husband ever abusing her.

Seven years of due process through the judicial system has not once come down on the parent's side.

Raven

[peam]

By the way..

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BRAIN_DAMAGED_WOMAN?SITE=FLPAP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLA TE=DEFAULT

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Amazing that all of a sudden he remembered what she wanted.

He did not "all of a sudden remember." He spent years wishing for a miracle that never came. And, honestly, what is the appropriate amount of time to wait? Had he said "Don't insert the tube" the very first day after her attack, would you honestly think more of him for abiding by her wishes? Or would you think him callous for not at least waiting a little while to see what happens? Can you see how "let's wait and see" would turn into a year, maybe two, especially with her parents pushing for it?

Jorddyn

[CrystalTears]

Has he proven there's no hope at all since not all possible tests have been given to her?

Would it be off the wall to possibly consider that she may only be responsive towards the people she already knows?

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Has he proven there's no hope at all since not all possible tests have been given to her?

He doesn't have to.


Would it be off the wall to possibly consider that she may only be responsive towards the people she already knows?

Her husband, who I'm guessing knows her at least in passing, has said she is not responsive.

Jorddyn

[Ravenstorm]

He's obviously proven it enough over the last seven years for every single court that's heard the case to agree.

Raven

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Ravenstorm]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
So he's also guilty for not demanding she be allowed to die immediately. You know, if I loved someone I'd want to make certain there was no hope at all before I decided to petition the courts for that person's death.

Oh, and let's not forget in this entire arguement the completely neutral, third party court appointed neurologists who also agreed that she's in a persistent vegetative state and that there's no hope at all that she'll ever recover. Or that seven years of investigation have not found a single instance of the husband ever abusing her.

Seven years of due process through the judicial system has not once come down on the parent's side.

Raven

If Michael loved Terry he wouldn't be living with another woman.

At an evidentiary hearing before Judge Greer in October, 2002, Dr. Victor Gambone, former attending physician of Terri Schiavo, testified under oath that his patient was not terminal and that was not in any sort of health crisis.

One of Michael's ex girlfriends has stated he is violent.

A bone scan taken of Terri revealed a healed broken right femur bone and healed bone fractures in her ribs, pelvis, spine and ankle. Is this just coincidence?

The Courts are liberal, this isn't new information.

[Warriorbird]

"If Michael loved Terry he wouldn't be living with another woman. "

So... you'd be celibate for 15 years with a brain dead wife? I'm not sure everyone could say that.

"Dr. Victor Gambone, former attending physician of Terri Schiavo,"

FORMER. Notice that case didn't end up in the parents' favor.

"One of Michael's ex girlfriends has stated he is violent. "

I dunno. I think one of my exes could describe me as that. I hit her to stop her from killing herself. This is an ex girlfriend we're talking about. Know how many broken relationships end badly?

Several of our appelate courts and our Supreme Court are not liberal in the slightest. Then again, the Republicans are playing judicial activists here.

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Has he proven there's no hope at all since not all possible tests have been given to her?

He doesn't have to.

:?:



Would it be off the wall to possibly consider that she may only be responsive towards the people she already knows?

Her husband, who I'm guessing knows her at least in passing, has said she is not responsive.

And there have been other people and physicians who have said that she is. So because the husband said it, it's golden information because.. because?

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by xtc
If Michael loved Terry he wouldn't be living with another woman.

Bullshit. His wife has been in a persistant vegatative state for 15 years. It is asinine to believe that his choice to go on living means that he doesn't love her.



A bone scan taken of Terri revealed a healed broken right femur bone and healed bone fractures in her ribs, pelvis, spine and ankle. Is this just coincidence?

She was anorexic and bulemic. When you don't take in adequate nutrition, your bones become brittle and your teeth can fall out. Is that the reason for her injuries? I don't know, and either do you.

Jorddyn

[Warriorbird]

19 judges, CT. Quite a few physicians testifying.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Has he proven there's no hope at all since not all possible tests have been given to her?

He doesn't have to.

:?:

He doesn't have to prove that there is no hope that anything we could ever possibly attempt with her body would produce any slight reaction or improvement. He has to prove that she wouldn't want to live like this. He has. 19 times.



And there have been other people and physicians who have said that she is. So because the husband said it, it's golden information because.. because?

Because lacking any information proving that she was seeking divorce or he is the reason that she is in this state, he is the one who gets to make the decisions.

Jorddyn

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Jorddyn]

[CrystalTears]

What are the 19 judges basing their information on? Have they personally gone to see and have announced that she is unresponsive or are they going on based on what the husband is saying?

BTW, the questions I've been asking in the last few posts are mostly me genuinely asking, not being sarcastic.

It kinda disturbs me that we know every intimate detail of what has been going on with Terry, but we don't know what documentation he has been giving or what has been said in court for judges to side with him.

[Edited on 3/22/2005 by CrystalTears]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"If Michael loved Terry he wouldn't be living with another woman. "

So... you'd be celibate for 15 years with a brain dead wife? I'm not sure everyone could say that.

"Dr. Victor Gambone, former attending physician of Terri Schiavo,"

FORMER. Notice that case didn't end up in the parents' favor.

"One of Michael's ex girlfriends has stated he is violent. "

I dunno. I think one of my exes could describe me as that. I hit her to stop her from killing herself. This is an ex girlfriend we're talking about. Know how many broken relationships end badly?

Several of our appelate courts and our Supreme Court are not liberal in the slightest. Then again, the Republicans are playing judicial activists here.

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]


Your ex-girlfriends would describe you as violent? Would any accuse you of stalking them? as Michael's have.

Have any of your ex's ended up with a mysterious plethora of broken bones that Doctors said was caused by trauma?

Dr Gambrone was hired by Michael Schiavo not the Schlinders.

If your wife was in this condition would it take you 7 years to remember your wife's wishes? Funny Michael didn't remember this during the medical malpractice suit where he stated he would always take care of Terry.

[Nakiro]

I'm so glad that everyone in the US is concerned about her and not about them. (http://www.sponsortoday.org)

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
What are the 19 judges basing their information on?

I'd wager they're basing it on the testimony of her husband, her parents, and doctors chosen by each side. Had it been one decision to his favor, based on his testimony only, I could see a second trial. However, 19 times the court system has found that his decision should stand. 19 times.

Jorddyn

[CrystalTears]

OMG one tragedy at a time. ;)

[Warriorbird]

Eh. Caring about this is likely more important than caring about Brad and Jen's split or http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/sports/basketball/11177703.htm , however, Nakiro. It brings up deep moral questions.

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Amazing that all of a sudden he remembered what she wanted.

He did not "all of a sudden remember." He spent years wishing for a miracle that never came. And, honestly, what is the appropriate amount of time to wait? Had he said "Don't insert the tube" the very first day after her attack, would you honestly think more of him for abiding by her wishes? Or would you think him callous for not at least waiting a little while to see what happens? Can you see how "let's wait and see" would turn into a year, maybe two, especially with her parents pushing for it?

Jorddyn

He never mentioned Terry's supposed wishes until 1997-8, funny you think it would have come up in the 6-7 years before that.

[Nakiro]

Yah, like how can so many people care about how a woman who put herself in a vegitative state as a (speculated) result of her own eating disorder when there are literally thousands of children dieing daily from simple, easily preventable causes (malnutrition, starvation, treatable disease)?

They should just drop the law suits and attorny fee's and pay for a few kids to have a meal.

[Nakiro]

Also to note, if I was lieing in a bed with nothing to do for 15 years I'd prefer if you killed me too, braindead or not.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by xtc
If Michael loved Terry he wouldn't be living with another woman.

Bullshit. His wife has been in a persistant vegatative state for 15 years. It is asinine to believe that his choice to go on living means that he doesn't love her.
Jorddyn

Agreed. If my wife is a vegetable.. I've got certain man needs that need to be fulfilled. I think 15 days is too long.. no way would I make 15 years.

[CrystalTears]

I guess I just don't think we are anyone to decide when a life is not worth keeping anymore. A life is a life, to me anyway.

We have the right to determine how our life will be. We are allowed the right to have a living will to decide whether to live or die in a crisis. I say, when no document is present, to side on the err of life, not death. No husband, no parent, no sibling, no child, should have the right to decide when the life is not worth hanging onto anymore.

[Warriorbird]

So do you support the death penalty?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Nakiro
Also to note, if I was lieing in a bed with nothing to do for 15 years I'd prefer if you killed me too, braindead or not.

At least we know what YOU want now. This is not necessarily true though in Terri's case. We just have the word of someone who has something to gain by her death saying that was her wishes. She doesn't have it written down anywhere.

And for the record.. I have said that I want to be kept alive no matter what. To me, life is far to precious to simply pull any plug. 20 years from now.. some scientist might just be able to stick me with a needle and poof, I'm up and about. I certainly wanna be around if it can happen.. rather than being worm food.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
So do you support the death penalty?

I've said that I think that people who murder innocent lives should pay for it, but I'm not sure if I would want them to die for it. Life is very precious to me, and becomes moreso the more I'm heading towards starting a family.

Unless it was something so serious that they were on a murdering rampage of innocent people, I may not pickit to have him freed, but I also wouldn't feel bad if they did put him to death. But on general principle? Not really.

[Warriorbird]

More solid than most folks involved in this.

[Nakiro]

Your right Parkbandit, that is my opinion.

However, Michael was entrusted with power of attorny, and for us that means what he wants is what matters. Its his decision, and if a court can find no evidence indicating he doesn't diserve that power, than neither you nor I nor Terri's parent's should have anymore to say about it.

I hope she dies soon. This has gone on too long. People need a new infatuation as well as a reality check.

[Edited on 3-22-2005 by Nakiro]

[Wezas]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by Warriorbird
So do you support the death penalty?

I've said that I think that people who murder innocent lives should pay for it, but I'm not sure if I would want them to die for it.

Bad Conservative! The correct answer is "Yes".

[CrystalTears]

Which is why I say over and over and over again that just because I tend to vote Republican doesn't automatically mean that I agree with everything they represent! Gah!

[Nakiro]

Also, individuals only value life when the life being threatened represents or symbolizes something they morally uphold, relate to, or support.

I bet you, Parkbandit, don't care if the Iraqi citizen dies during a bombing of an insurgent stronghold.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
And for the record.. I have said that I want to be kept alive no matter what. To me, life is far to precious to simply pull any plug. 20 years from now.. some scientist might just be able to stick me with a needle and poof, I'm up and about.

And I refuse to put my family through that.

6 months, fine.

15 years? They'd better hope I don't wake up because I'll kick their asses.

Jorddyn

[CrystalTears]

You'd kick their ass for keeping you alive when you wake up from a 15 year coma or whatever? Seriously? I'd thank them for not giving up on me.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
You'd kick their ass for keeping you alive when you wake up from a 15 year coma or whatever? Seriously? I'd thank them for not giving up on me.

Some things, well,you'll never how you'll react until they happen to you.

[CrystalTears]

Right. So you don't know if you lying on that deathbed you'd want someone to unplug you unless you had some say in the matter. And if you can't say? Let them be and keep on living, just in case.

[Edited on 3/22/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
You'd kick their ass for keeping you alive when you wake up from a 15 year coma or whatever? Seriously? I'd thank them for not giving up on me.

I would not want to be that kind of financial, emotional, and physical burden on the people I love for that long. Hell, I felt bad for the week my mom had to spend with me when I broke my leg.

Jorddyn

[CrystalTears]

I wouldn't want my family to go through it either, quite frankly, but if they don't mind the burden and I never gave the aye or nay to unplug me in the first place, who am I to get in the way of their decision to keep me alive?

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I wouldn't want my family to go through it either, quite frankly, but if they don't mind the burden and I never gave the aye or nay to unplug me in the first place, who am I to get in the way of their decision to keep me alive?

Then, who are you to get in the way of their decision to not?

Jorddyn

[Ilvane]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

If this country has the money to invade a country for billions of dollars, they can certainly use some money to help keep people alive. How often does this sort of situation happen and to how many people? Why can't this country, as a society, help those people live? I'm still not understanding why this is such a horrible thing to keep someone alive when nothing is known of what they really want.


That's all fine and good CT.. Problem is, the same Congress and President that are cutting benefits for these kind of people is the one making the decision to keep her alive. That's what's so ironic about compassionate conservatism. It's a sham.

-A

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I wouldn't want my family to go through it either, quite frankly, but if they don't mind the burden and I never gave the aye or nay to unplug me in the first place, who am I to get in the way of their decision to keep me alive?

Then, who are you to get in the way of their decision to not?

Jorddyn

Because I err on the side of life and I would be really disappointed (not that I could share that in the afterlife) in their decision to end my life.

Wow I'm so getting my will done as soon as a I get married. Y'all are getting me paranoid.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Ilvane
That's all fine and good CT.. Problem is, the same Congress and President that are cutting benefits for these kind of people is the one making the decision to keep her alive. That's what's so ironic about compassionate conservatism. It's a sham.

-A

"These kind of people"? Who are these people that are getting their benefits cut?

[Warriorbird]

The situation with my grandmother made me that way a long while back.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Because I err on the side of life and I would be really disappointed (not that I could share that in the afterlife) in their decision to end my life.


That's the point, though. You would be mad if they didn't err on the side of life. I'd be mad if they kept me alive indefinitely. To say as a blanket statement "If there's nothing in writing, they should keep the person alive" is as ridiculous to me as "If there's nothing in writing, pull the damn plug" is to you. That is why we trust the judgement of the person assigned to be her guardian. She was married, so that responsibility falls on her husband. The courts have upheld that numerous times.


Wow I'm so getting my will done as soon as a I get married. Y'all are getting me paranoid.

Good :)

Jorddyn

[Ilvane]

http://www.dmdoptions.com/disr_1199.html

This was from 2003, but you get the idea.

-A

[Keller]

First of all -- xtc has been on his "Michael is an asshole" tangent for too long. It's not about Michael. It's about Terri.

CT -- If you believe the rhetoric you espouse then take a step back and ask if we could find a better use for this money. 15 years of medical bills and still a degrading condition. Use that money for embryonic stem cell research and hope that in 15 years, people in Terri's condition will have the ability to resume a semi-normal life -- you know, where they could at least swallow their food themselves.

This is politics at it's fucking best people. It's a big joke. I think hearings on baseball have more importance in Washington than this case.

[CrystalTears]

I have no problem for them to use money for stem cell research. Can't they use money for that AND keep her alive so that when they can help her, she'll be there to get better?

[Back]

Here is a question to contemplate...

If she really had any spark of awareness in her, and really did want the tube removed, why hasnt she? Is it because she is aware and wants to live? Or because she really is brain dead and has no clue whats going on?

[Hulkein]

Kill her.

[Keller]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I have no problem for them to use money for stem cell research. Can't they use money for that AND keep her alive so that when they can help her, she'll be there to get better?

Unfortunately we can't just keep everyone alive until we cure their ailment.

There are people who die from splinters because they do not have adequate treatment yet this lady doesn't have a cerebral cortex and we're keeping her alive. I know life is not fair -- but we don't have to all be retarded about the issue.

[Ylena]

I keep thinking of an exchange in Jurassic Park:

HAMMOND: You don't give us our due credit. Our scientists have done things no one ever could do before.

MALCOLM: Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should.

I feel terrible for both sides of her family. There's been entirely too much scrutiny for me to buy the "Mike is a money-grubbing wife abuser who wants her dead" arguments, and who can possibly blame the Schiavos for clinging to hope, even in the absence of evidence?

I don't believe, based on the admittedly not thorough information released to the public, that Terri has any sort of cognitive processes that are truly human. I don't think there's any 'her' there. But, assuming for a moment that there's some tiny shred there -- how horrible it would be to be stuck inside your head for 15 years with absolutely no real way to communicate. No food. No water. No diversions of any kind. Frankly, I'd rather be dead.

Modern medicine has produced an astonishing list of extraordinary miracles. Hell, anybody who watched Sunday's episode of Deadwood and saw Al's anguish with the kidney stones and the procedure the doctor used is damned grateful to be living in this day and age. However, medicine has not done a good job of drawing the line between the possible and the realistic.

Is Terri Schiavo alive? Personally, I don't believe so. I think her body is alive, but Terri passed on 15 years ago. Whatever suffering and agony Terri's conscious self experienced happened when she had the cerebral event. Withdrawing the feeding tube does nothing more than stop the prolonging of something that should have happened a long time ago.

[Caiylania]

<<HAMMOND: You don't give us our due credit. Our scientists have done things no one ever could do before.

MALCOLM: Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should. >>

I've always loved that quote. It can often be true.

Personally, husband and family aside. MY VIEW on it is that it's been 15 years. From what I've read and seen, I am in the camp there is NOTHING there. She is brain dead.

Have any of you heard of fetus in fetu? (Sp?) It is where a woman carries twins, but one doesn't have a brain and the healthy twin's body envelopes it and is born "pregnant".

Some kids have gone YEARS not having any idea they have their TWIN inside them. Because there is no brain, it doesn't grow, but it lives off the body of the healthy twin. As soon as it is discovered surgery is performed and the 'fetus' removed. In moments it is 'dead'. As long as it had the healthy twin to feed and function for it, the body kept going. But there was nothing there. It had no future.

Terri has no future, it isn't like someone who is in a coma and has brain function. Her eyes are open but they don't register anything.

In my living will, it has set standards. If I'm comatose, have brain function, DO WHATEVER YOU CAN. If there is nothing going on there.... let me go. People can and do wake up from coma's after 15 years. You can NOT wake up from being brain dead.

Family intentions have nothing to do with it. Will she recover? No. Does she have any quality of life? No.

Let her go.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Caiylania
People can and do wake up from coma's after 15 years. You can NOT wake up from being brain dead.

Family intentions have nothing to do with it. Will she recover? No. Does she have any quality of life? No.

Let her go. Yep... that's where I'm coming from concerning this issue. It's not like it's only been a year or two or three. 15. Not in a coma. Brain dead.

The political agenda surrounding this is sickening.

[Kyra]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
You'd kick their ass for keeping you alive when you wake up from a 15 year coma or whatever? Seriously? I'd thank them for not giving up on me.

15 years of being in such a state..I would definitely be pissed. After such a long time(and health care being what it is), most likely you would have muscle contractions & be unable to function normally anytime soon after "wakening".

If you were really lucky you wouldn't have any pressure ulcers, if not...ugh.

Teeth? Count on them being wrecked(or gone) as dental coverage & care in a long term care facility is crap.

There are so, so many things on the list of what would be screwed in your body after 15 plus years of not using it normally.. who wants to "wake up" to be in a non-functional state?

I've had conscious patients with feeding tubes tell me it is pure hell to see & smell food & beverage but not be able to have any for years on end...your mouth & throat become a cracked, barren wasteland.

Too many people go thru crap like this to "save" their lives...they should let the poor woman go, keep her comfortable on her way out & get some closure.

K.

She told her husband she wanted to die.

There is no arguement.

- Arkans

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Kyra

Originally posted by CrystalTears
You'd kick their ass for keeping you alive when you wake up from a 15 year coma or whatever? Seriously? I'd thank them for not giving up on me.

15 years of being in such a state..I would definitely be pissed. After such a long time(and health care being what it is), most likely you would have muscle contractions & be unable to function normally anytime soon after "wakening".



The myth that people coming out of coma's like normal is very silly. 99 times out of 100, when someone awakens from a long term coma they'll have serious brain and physical defects. I recall a program about one such person who'd pulled out of a 15 year coma. He still believed he was 18, and not 30. So much so that he'd hit on his daughter. He couldn't create new memories and he was also bed-ridden. His case was considered one of the better ones for a coma victim.

I've left strict instructions if I was ever in that state my life will be terminated. As the evidence suggest so did this poor woman. Why can't we abide by her wishes?

[Kyra]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
As the evidence suggest so did this poor woman. Why can't we abide by her wishes?

Because that would be too easy?? If there is something for people to screw up they will(even if it's knowing when to let someone die).

I once took care of a woman who had murdered both her children in cold blood, been institutionalized for almost 50 years, sent to a nursing home & AGAIN was found trying to kill her room-mate. Yet when she couldn't swallow food & water anymore the state appointed guardian put in a feeding tube to keep her alive for another 5 years. :wtf: Yep, that's it...keep 'em alive no matter what. Ugh.

K.

[Back]

What I find tragically ironic is that our government, the House and the President, dropped everything to hold a session and pass a bill for just one brain dead woman’s life... yet signed off on the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

Err on the side of life indeed.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Backlash
What I find tragically ironic is that our government, the House and the President, dropped everything to hold a session and pass a bill for just one brain dead woman’s life... yet signed off on the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

Err on the side of life indeed.

Obviously the US Government values the life of one of its (literally) brain dead citizens over the 10,000 Iraqi citizen lives.

[CrystalTears]

Iraqi civilians were incidental deaths. They were not targetted to be killed. That's all I'm saying on this subject as you're now comparing international finances to getting a car loan just to get a jab in.

[Warriorbird]

They weren't part of the "culture of life", Backlash. They weren't Christian.

[Warriorbird]

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/11195263.htm

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
What I find tragically ironic is that our government, the House and the President, dropped everything to hold a session and pass a bill for just one brain dead woman’s life... yet signed off on the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

Err on the side of life indeed.


Dear Backlash-

People die in wars.

Thanks.

[Warriorbird]

We must always err on the side of life! (unless that life is non-Christian)

[Edited on 3-23-2005 by Warriorbird]

[CrystalTears]

Your angst against Christians is getting tiring, especially when that hasn't been a factor with this case, and not even with the link you posted. I know it's surprising, but there are many people that fighting for the right to life who aren't Christian, Catholic, or even religious in and of itself. Let it go.

[Edited on 3/23/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Warriorbird]

Operation Rescue is playing cheerleader. The parents are part of the religious right. This is a huge political issue for the Republicans with those crowds. DAMN right it is a factor.

[Ilvane]

It hasn't been a part of this case???

The main reason the parents don't want her taken off the feeding tube is because the say as a Catholic she wouldn't want to be taken off the tube.

Also, the Vadican has even weighed in on the case saying we should "Err on the side of life" as well.

-A

[CrystalTears]

You're right, that's what the parents are saying is part of the reason they want her alive. But it hasn't been any of the deciding factors in the courts, that it's also been about upholding constitution values, which is what I meant. Sorry for that.

But that's not why Warriorbird is saying that. It's a slam against Bush and Bush never said it was a Christian thing, which is why I said something.

[Edited on 3/23/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Wezas]

Using some kind of drug combination to help her to her final resting place > starving to death

[CrystalTears]

I so agree with that, Wezas. I really don't like this whole starving to death thing. Just seems so inhumane.

[Warriorbird]

If you can't read the subext behind "culture of life" America really deserves to be this shafted. If you don't realize the religious subtext of the "right to life" movement, maybe we deserve this.

The link had nothing to do with my other post which was a response to Parkbandit. It was just pointing out Bush's little flip-flop, which, in retrospect, is kowtowing to the "right to life" crowd, so maybe it did.

[Warriorbird]

John Warner, Republican Senator from Virginia, displaying balls. He needs to be careful or he'll get circle stabbed like McCain and Orrin Hatch.

"Another key Republican, Sen. John Warner of Virginia, indicated opposition to the legislation in the congressional record but didn't voice it on the floor during debate Sunday. The Senate passed the legislation under the chamber's unanimous consent rules.

In a statement, Warner wrote that Congress acted against the 10th Amendment, which reserves certain powers for states.

"I believe it unwise for the Congress to take from the state of Florida its constitutional responsibility to resolve the issues in this case," Warner wrote.

"This bill, in effect, challenges the integrity and capabilities of the state courts in Florida.""

source: http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/03/22/schiavo.reaction/index.html

[Back]

This is all about religion and its recent rebonding with politics. But maybe even more about politics considering who the governor of Florida is.

And its probably even more about religion and politics than her actual life.

[Parkbandit]

I never saw this as a political thing. I even agree with my devout Democratic freak sister on this topic... thus making it non-political to me.

[Warriorbird]

Sadly, Parkbandit, you are not the world or even the Republican Party. The world might be a better place if the world or the Republican Party played a dwarf in Gemstone 4 and robbed idiots in the park.

;)

[Back]

An emergency session of the House, and the President cutting his weekend short for it is all about politics.

Its about two branches trying to strongarm the third. We’ve heard the President criticize “liberal” judges during his campaign.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Backlash
Its about two branches trying to strongarm the third.

Obviously, negotiations did not work. Let's try military intervention.

Jorddyn, picturing the army storming a Florida Court

P.S. It's a JOKE.
P.P.S. It's still a JOKE.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
An emergency session of the House, and the President cutting his weekend short for it is all about politics.

Its about two branches trying to strongarm the third. We’ve heard the President criticize “liberal” judges during his campaign.

Or it's about 1 branch trying to become more powerful than it was intended to be.. and the other two finally pushing back.

It's all about your perspective.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Sadly, Parkbandit, you are not the world or even the Republican Party. The world might be a better place if the world or the Republican Party played a dwarf in Gemstone 4 and robbed idiots in the park.

;)

Heh.. but I don't play a dwarf anymore in GS4. I play a mightly bull who just ganks alliance members when they step out of line.

:)

[HarmNone]

Let me just inject a little something about pain relief into this conversation:

All opiate pain relief (morphine being one) must be used in moderation, since it has an affect on a patient's ability to breathe. Therefore, a patient who must stay alive is limited in the amount of morpine, etc. they can receive. A patient who is known to be dying, and is in pain, is less limited. They receive more pain relief. That is a known fact in hospitals.

Does that mean medical personnel are "killing" the patient knowingly? I guess that depends on one's perspective. :shrug:

[CrystalTears]

Are they even giving her any pain relief such as morphine?

[xtc]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by Backlash
Its about two branches trying to strongarm the third.

Obviously, negotiations did not work. Let's try military intervention.

Jorddyn, picturing the army storming a Florida Court

P.S. It's a JOKE.
P.P.S. It's still a JOKE.

Kind of like Clinton did when he ripped a child from his family, in Florida, in the middle of the night and sent him back to Fidel's dictatorship.

[Ilvane]

I find it incredibly ironic that most of the supporters of "Terri's Law" want to cap malpractice settlements and make them more difficult for patients to file them..I wonder if they realize that Terri's care is mostly paid for by one of these settlements.

Of course they also support cuts in the state medicaid systems..Jeb Bush has been pushing a plan for Medicare reform that had cuts and shifts burdens to HMO's..and of course they also just passed several billion dollars in cuts to Medicaid.

I wish more of them would have the nerve to stand up and say if we want to do this, we need increase funding in medicaid and medicare for these patients...

But of course, they don't think of that when they pass laws making it harder for file bankruptcy, when all the people as a result of this law have to remortgage houses and take out loans for medical care, since medicaid and medicare won't cover it..and then when they get in over their head, there's not much they can do about it.

-A

[DeV]

You mean back to his father xtc. That was the right decision.

Also, I was under the impression that when you're brain dead you are unable to feel sensations. Harmnone or someone, correct me if I'm wrong.

[HarmNone]

You're correct, DeV. When your cerebral cortex is the equivalent of mush, you cannot feel pain. The centers for accepting incoming sensory data are simply not operating. However, several people have expressed a concern about Terri being "in pain" while not being fed. I posted the information for the sake of their concerns. Even when doctors and nurses know a patient does not feel pain, they can err on the side of pain relief to palliate the concerns of the loved ones...and they do. :)

[Tromp]

Kind of like Clinton did when he ripped a child from his family, in Florida, in the middle of the night and sent him back to Fidel's dictatorship.

They sent him back to his Father who wanted him back after a failed mutally agreed upon attempt by the Mom to make it across. So consider the family in Florida as kidnappers. As Parkbandit would say it's all one's perspective.

[DeV]

Originally posted by HarmNone
You're correct, DeV. When your cerebral cortex is the equivalent of mush, you cannot feel pain. The centers for accepting incoming sensory data are simply not operating. However, several people have expressed a concern about Terri being "in pain" while not being fed. I posted the information for the sake of their concerns. Even when doctors and nurses know a patient does not feel pain, they can err on the side of pain relief to palliate the concerns of the loved ones...and they do. :) Thanks for clearing this up.

[HarmNone]

Welcome! :)

[CrystalTears]

He was sent back to his father because he was getting ordered by Fidel to get the boy back. I honestly don't think any of them cared about the boy, only themselves. He was happier in America but whatever. I'm biased because it was never about the boy's happiness, it was all political.

Ah, I get it now! You corksuckers. :D

[Tromp]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
He was sent back to his father because he was getting ordered by Fidel to get the boy back. I honestly don't think any of them cared about the boy, only themselves. He was happier in America but whatever. I'm biased because it was never about the boy's happiness, it was all political.

Ah, I get it now! You corksuckers. :D

I see you have deep insight into the boys mind. Man I wish I had that skill. I'm sure if your child was taken to Cuba and was happier over there you'd let him hang out there regardless of who he was with. That is noble of you. Plus you have to tell me how you can get to know people to well without ever meeting or talking to them.

[DeV]

Family Values.

Even if the father wanted the boy to stay here he should have signed guardianship papers over to the relatives down in Florida and told Fidel to fuck himself. Also, I don't even know if those were the relatives of the mothers side or the fathers. Since I don't I will be biased and assume he actually cared about his son and wanted to be with him because he felt a sense of responsibility for his upbringing.

[HarmNone]

Ummm...we're mixing topics here. Let's stick with the topic at hand and start another thread about the little boy, if you like. :)

[Tromp]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Ummm...we're mixing topics here. Let's stick with the topic at hand and start another thread about the little boy, if you like. :)

So true... sorry

[HarmNone]

Not a problem, hon. It happens. :)

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
I find it incredibly ironic that most of the supporters of "Terri's Law" want to cap malpractice settlements and make them more difficult for patients to file them..I wonder if they realize that Terri's care is mostly paid for by one of these settlements.

-A

There is a huge difference in a 1 million dollar settlement or judgement.. and a 40 million dollar settlement.

It's like 40 times as much.

[HarmNone]

True, PB. 40 million might come closer to actual costs if this continues.

[Ravenstorm]

And Bush has proposed a malpractice cap of $250k.

Raven

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Tromp

Originally posted by CrystalTears
He was sent back to his father because he was getting ordered by Fidel to get the boy back. I honestly don't think any of them cared about the boy, only themselves. He was happier in America but whatever. I'm biased because it was never about the boy's happiness, it was all political.

Ah, I get it now! You corksuckers. :D

I see you have deep insight into the boys mind. Man I wish I had that skill. I'm sure if your child was taken to Cuba and was happier over there you'd let him hang out there regardless of who he was with. That is noble of you. Plus you have to tell me how you can get to know people to well without ever meeting or talking to them.

He WAS happier here. I bet he's happy now with his dad, I don't know, I'm not there. However while he was here with his American family (who were relatives on his mother's side, btw) he was very happy, so says his family.

Yeah I know, hearing it from a second source rather than them is not great, but I did know people who knew that family and knew Elian. He knew what his mother through to get him here and was grateful for the opportunity to live in a free country.

Cubans get the worst end of the stick in that country. If I was living there and I knew my son was in a SAFER country with family, I would be happy for him, which is why his mother sacrified her life for him. But what do I know, apparently.

Sorry, I was offtopic, but I think I've already exhausted expressing my feelings on the Terry case.

[Edited on 3/23/2005 by CrystalTears]

[HarmNone]

That's absolutely ridiculous, as far as I'm concerned, Ravenstorm. $250,000 doesn't even make a dent in some of these doctors' yearly take! :O

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by HarmNone
True, PB. 40 million might come closer to actual costs if this continues.

It's well over that with all the legal wrangling by now.

My issue with this is his motivation. He could have easily signed over guardianship to her parents, gotten a divorce and went about his life. He brought this "her wishes" up after he won both settlements/judgements of malpractice and was paid. This was never brought up in court while he was trying to get money. He continued to use the phrase "I need this to take care of her for the rest of her life".

Never once during this trial did he ever mention that he would be trying to cut that life short by refusing to feed her.

[HarmNone]

We were discussing caps on malpractice suits, I believe. That's the issue to which my comment, and yours, was addressed.

Even without the legal wrangling, costs for care in cases like this are going to be horrendous. That was the issue I was addressing.

I'm not about to get into any argument over whether or not the woman should be kept alive. I have my own viewpoint. Others have theirs. To argue about it is, in my opinion, valueless.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Never once during this trial did he ever mention that he would be trying to cut that life short by refusing to feed her.

Maybe because it was six years AFTER the trial that he petitioned to end her life support. Hmmm, could it be that in six years of seeing his wife lie there with all the higher brain functions of a lobster that he realized there was no hope?

Stop making it sound like as soon as he cashed the check he changed his mind.

Raven

[HarmNone]

The assumptions being made here, and in the media (on both sides), are rampant. That's why, if the government insists on becoming involved in this issue, I'd like to see it madate a PET scan, which would be done at government expense (let the Senators and the President pay for it, not the taxpayer or the family ;) ). Although unbelievably expensive, such a scan would bring this issue to a close one way, or the other.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Although unbelievably expensive, such a scan would bring this issue to a close one way, or the other.

I disagree. The issue isn't whether or not she has any brain function. The issue is whether or not her husband should be allowed to act as her guardian.

The brain scan may either complicate things (Look! A blip!) or it may lead her parents to realize there is no hope. Or they may see that the scan shows nothing, and still not change their minds. There are no guarantees that it would solve anything.

Jorddyn

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Never once during this trial did he ever mention that he would be trying to cut that life short by refusing to feed her.

Maybe because it was six years AFTER the trial that he petitioned to end her life support. Hmmm, could it be that in six years of seeing his wife lie there with all the higher brain functions of a lobster that he realized there was no hope?

Stop making it sound like as soon as he cashed the check he changed his mind.

Raven

Or maybe he got what he wanted and couldn't give two shits about his wife after her usefulness was over. 6 years or 6 months certainly isn't the rest of her fucking life.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by HarmNone
Although unbelievably expensive, such a scan would bring this issue to a close one way, or the other.

I disagree. The issue isn't whether or not she has any brain function. The issue is whether or not her husband should be allowed to act as her guardian.

The brain scan may either complicate things (Look! A blip!) or it may lead her parents to realize there is no hope. Or they may see that the scan shows nothing, and still not change their minds. There are no guarantees that it would solve anything.

Jorddyn

Actually, I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, the government HAS decided to get itself involved. If it's going to get involved, and it's going to ignore the fact that the husband has the say here, then it needs to ensure that it does everything possible to see that ITS decision is the correct decision.

Personally, I believe the government should never have gotten involved, and that the correct decision has been made. However, with all the bruhaha being made about the case, definitive proof is the only thing that's going to shut everyone up and let this thing end...for Terri, for the family, and for everyone.

If Terri's cerebral cortex has been replaced by spinal fluid, I'm convinced that no significant "blips" would exist.

[xtc]

Ok, No one here is going to convince the other side. As such ,I am going to post a link where you can download a living will, since all of us here are so passionate about it.

http://www.familycaregiversonline.com/legal-medical.html

[Edited on 3-23-2005 by xtc]

[Kyra]

I just got my local paper & saw this article. I've known the boy in this article since he was about 10 years old...

Thankfully some good has come of this Terri Schiavo case, little Jerry's parents have found the good sense to know when to let go.

K.
http://www.mlive.com/news/kzgazette/index.ssf?/base/news-13/1111594834170390.xml

[Back]

Another link. It looks like Governor Jeb Bush is seeking custody (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=ne-main-9-l1&flok=FF-APO-1110&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20050323%2F1823968740.htm&sc=1110). This is just getting weirder and weirder.

[Ilvane]

This is very strange..since when can the governor do something like that? I'm hoping that it gets struck down too.

The poor woman, what a battle.

-A

[GSTamral]

What we have here is the basic premise of medicine spending millions of dollars to come to the conclusion that she will not recover, her husband not wanting her to suffer any more, and her parents bending down and taking it in the ass from the Catholic Church. The Church thinks its murder? Let them foot the whole bill.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Backlash
Another link. It looks like Governor Jeb Bush is seeking custody (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=ne-main-9-l1&flok=FF-APO-1110&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20050323%2F1823968740.htm&sc=1110). This is just getting weirder and weirder.

They wouldn't give custody to her parents. Why in the hell does he think he should get it? :rant: :asshole:

:rock: :club: :chair: :forehead: :kick:

Jorddyn, likes the violent smilies

[GSTamral]

<<<
I find it incredibly ironic that most of the supporters of "Terri's Law" want to cap malpractice settlements and make them more difficult for patients to file them..I wonder if they realize that Terri's care is mostly paid for by one of these settlements.

Of course they also support cuts in the state medicaid systems..Jeb Bush has been pushing a plan for Medicare reform that had cuts and shifts burdens to HMO's..and of course they also just passed several billion dollars in cuts to Medicaid.

I wish more of them would have the nerve to stand up and say if we want to do this, we need increase funding in medicaid and medicare for these patients...

But of course, they don't think of that when they pass laws making it harder for file bankruptcy, when all the people as a result of this law have to remortgage houses and take out loans for medical care, since medicaid and medicare won't cover it..and then when they get in over their head, there's not much they can do about it.
>>>

Let's clear up some this one.

Limiting punitive damages in malpractice cases has nothing to do with medical damages. The two are entirely different. I'm sorry that you fail to understand this.

HMO's exist because of Insurance Companies. Insurance Companies thrive because people sue for 2 million dollars for being stupid and burning themselves with coffee. Had the person sued only for medical damages (a dollar for a band-aid), Insurance Companies would not have taken over our health care system, and HMO's would not be needed.

This is also an extreme one in a million case. This happens once for every million coffee spills.

You need to read more into the medicare and medicaid cuts. The premiums went up to maintain equal service. The premiums went up because insurance costs are up. Insurance costs are up because people sue for 2 million dollars for spilling coffee, and the lawyers make a killing from such cases, so they keep donating to the political affiliates who help these cases continue to flow in. This in turn forces hospitals to merge and cut costs, which means they are always understaffed. When this happens, you are more likely to end up with malpractice, because frankly, you don't deserve good health care if you want to reserve the right to sue for millions for something trivial, because your stupid ass costs everyone else billions.

The actual cost for a simple blood test for hepatitis - less than 20 dollars. Insurance cost for this test - more than 100 dollars. throw in the HMO profit and Insurance company profit, and you get to shell out 200 bucks for a 20 dollar test. You don't care because it is covered by insurance, and 200 dollars isn't likely to press against your limit. All you know is your premiums keep going up.

People should have the right to select on their insurance forms that they don't plan on being fucking assholes and suing frivolously, so they can pay one fifth or less of what an asshole would pay. Similarly, doctors should have the right to refuse service to, under any and all circumstances, people who don't sign such an agreement if they want to.

[Brattt8525]

You can debate the husbands motives all you want, the fact still remains that TERRI is the center of the issue. Who the fuck in their right mind would say hell yes leave me in a vegetative state for the rest of my life. Fill what used to be my spine with fucking fluid! WTF her parents are stupid morons and so is anyone else who thinks the poor woman would have WANTED to lay there like a freaking veg.

[Warriorbird]

Tamral, for an extremely educated person regarding finances... you seem to know shockingly little about Medicare and Medicaid. I'll give you a bye for now due to actually being on your side about the larger issue for once.

[Edited on 3-24-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Keller]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Tamral, for an extremely educated person regarding finances... you seem to know shockingly little about Medicare and Medicaid. I'll give you a bye for now due to actually being on your side about the larger issue for once.

[Edited on 3-24-2005 by Warriorbird]

Oh god.

And now Tamral has another pissing partner to show off his infinate intellect.

I'm sure as hell looking forward to this. :rolleyes:

[TheRoseLady]

Actually, for those who are interested in their own advance directives, make sure you search by state. Each state has their own laws governing them, so do so accordingly.

For those in Ohio this is a good advance directives packet.

http://www.ohpco.org/living_will.htm

I had major surgery in August and both my husband and I completed our advance directives prior to that procedure.

Interestingly enough, I basically agree with PB's stance on all of this. I just can't get past the part where the husband has forbidden therapy that could have rehabilitated her, it's been stated that he even forbade them to give her a towel to hold in her hands to prevent them from seizing up. I just don't understand that. :shrug:

[Warriorbird]

Lotta spin out there from either side. I think I believe the verdicts more than anything. The Constiution and our notions of legal guardianship are at stake here.

[Nakiro]

The woman lacks the ability to make basic cognative cerebral functions. She's ready to die.

[Galleazzo]

Fuck this, now if there's frigging political gain to be had the assholes in Congress and President Buttfucking Bush can pass a personal law interfering in MY LIFE? And you frigging KNOW that ten poor black dudes died strapped to tubes while those asshats debated that "law" only no one cares because they ain't white.

I want all the jackasses on PC who said how great Bush was 6 mos ago to defend that loser now. Nut up why doncha.

:down: :fu: :jerkit: :fu: :down:

[Warriorbird]

PB and CT certainly are.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
You can debate the husbands motives all you want, the fact still remains that TERRI is the center of the issue. Who the fuck in their right mind would say hell yes leave me in a vegetative state for the rest of my life. Fill what used to be my spine with fucking fluid! WTF her parents are stupid morons and so is anyone else who thinks the poor woman would have WANTED to lay there like a freaking veg.

I would.

I don't have this silly notion that after I die, I'll just pop up to heaven or hell or come back as a forest creature. I got one opportunity for life and I'll be damned if I'm going to allow someone to unplug me.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Fuck this, now if there's frigging political gain to be had the assholes in Congress and President Buttfucking Bush can pass a personal law interfering in MY LIFE? And you frigging KNOW that ten poor black dudes died strapped to tubes while those asshats debated that "law" only no one cares because they ain't white.

I want all the jackasses on PC who said how great Bush was 6 mos ago to defend that loser now. Nut up why doncha.

:down: :fu: :jerkit: :fu: :down:

Hmm.. I think we have been. Please read the previous 9 pages.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Interestingly enough, I basically agree with PB's stance on all of this. I just can't get past the part where the husband has forbidden therapy that could have rehabilitated her, it's been stated that he even forbade them to give her a towel to hold in her hands to prevent them from seizing up. I just don't understand that. :shrug:

Holy shit.. write this day down!!


:smooch:

[xtc]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
You can debate the husbands motives all you want, the fact still remains that TERRI is the center of the issue. Who the fuck in their right mind would say hell yes leave me in a vegetative state for the rest of my life. Fill what used to be my spine with fucking fluid! WTF her parents are stupid morons and so is anyone else who thinks the poor woman would have WANTED to lay there like a freaking veg.

The problem is the medically community doesn't agree on Terry's state. Dr Stevens who is a neurologist with the world famous Mayo Clinic has a different diagnosis for Terry. He states emphatically that Terry isn't in a persistent vegetative state. She hasn't been given rehabilitative therapy or a PET scan or an MRI. Additionally Terry is a practicing Catholic. When trying to determine what her wishes are you must consider all of the above. I know if it was me I would want a PET Scan, an MRI, and rehabilitative therapy.

[Apotheosis]

all I have to say, is I'm making sure my plug is pulled if I am put in a warclaidhmd state

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Yswithe
all I have to say, is I'm making sure my plug is pulled if I am put in a warclaidhmd state

[CrystalTears]

OMG! :rofl:

[Ilvane]

This is a December 2003 report written by Dr. Jay Wolfson. He's a doctor and a lawyer who was appointed as a guardian for Schiavo in October 2003 by Florida Governor Jeb Bush. NPR, which aired an interview with Dr. Wolfson yesterday, has posted a PDF version on its site.(http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4544756)

It's 40 pages long, but interesting to read.

Some key portions:

* [The Guardian concludes] that all of the appropriate and proper elements of the law have been followed and met. The law has done its job well. The courts [which supported the decision to suspend feeding] have carefully and diligently adhered to the prescribed civil processes and evidentiary guidelines, and have painfully and diligently applied the required tests in a reasonable, conscientious and professional manner.

* Highly competent, scientifically based physicians using recognized measures and standards have deduced, within a high degree of medical certainty, that Theresa is in a persistent vegetative state. This evidence is compelling.

* Theresa's neurological tests and CT scans indicate objective measures of the persistent vegetative state.

* Individuals have come forward indicating that there are therapies and treatments and interventions that can literally re-grow Theresa's functional, cerebral cortex brain tissue [which has shrunken], restoring part of all of her functions. There is no scientifically valid, medically recognized evidence that this has been done or is possible, even in rats, according to the president of the American Society for Neuro-Transplantation.

* [The Guardian] concludes from the medical records and consultations with medical experts that the scope and weight of the medical information within the file concerning Theresa Schiavo consists of competent well-document information that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no likelihood of improvement.

Wolfson describes the history of the case, noting that her husband Michael did try for years to find therapies and treatments for Schiavo before concluding there were no possibilities. He also notes that the evidence presented by two neurologists chosen by Michael Schiavo and a neurologist picked by the Florida court in charge of the case was "clear and convincing in support of Theresa being in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of improvement." The evidence presented by physicians chosen by Schiavo's parents, according to Wolfson, "was substantially anecdotal, and was reasonably deemed to be not clear and convincing."

In this report, Wolfson also notes he spent much time with Schiavo and "was not able to independently determine that there were consistent, repetitive, intentional, reproducible interactive and aware activities."

Remember, Wolfson was selected by Jeb Bush to review the case. Now, who's more credible: Wolfson or Tom DeLay?

-A

[CrystalTears]

I'm sorry but you're not going to be able convince me otherwise that putting her to death is what is best for her unless she has all possible brain tests done, and even then I wouldn't be so willing to see her die.

[HarmNone]

What herd of idiots decided that her cerebral cortex could be regenerated, I wonder? Sheesh! That's the most outrageous thing I think I've heard in quite some time. :rolleyes:

[Keller]

Originally posted by Ilvane
This is a December 2003 report written by Dr. Jay Wolfson. He's a doctor and a lawyer who was appointed as a guardian for Schiavo in October 2003 by Florida Governor Jeb Bush. NPR, which aired an interview with Dr. Wolfson yesterday, has posted a PDF version on its site.(http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4544756)

It's 40 pages long, but interesting to read.

Some key portions:

* [The Guardian concludes] that all of the appropriate and proper elements of the law have been followed and met. The law has done its job well. The courts [which supported the decision to suspend feeding] have carefully and diligently adhered to the prescribed civil processes and evidentiary guidelines, and have painfully and diligently applied the required tests in a reasonable, conscientious and professional manner.

* Highly competent, scientifically based physicians using recognized measures and standards have deduced, within a high degree of medical certainty, that Theresa is in a persistent vegetative state. This evidence is compelling.

* Theresa's neurological tests and CT scans indicate objective measures of the persistent vegetative state.

* Individuals have come forward indicating that there are therapies and treatments and interventions that can literally re-grow Theresa's functional, cerebral cortex brain tissue [which has shrunken], restoring part of all of her functions. There is no scientifically valid, medically recognized evidence that this has been done or is possible, even in rats, according to the president of the American Society for Neuro-Transplantation.

* [The Guardian] concludes from the medical records and consultations with medical experts that the scope and weight of the medical information within the file concerning Theresa Schiavo consists of competent well-document information that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no likelihood of improvement.

Wolfson describes the history of the case, noting that her husband Michael did try for years to find therapies and treatments for Schiavo before concluding there were no possibilities. He also notes that the evidence presented by two neurologists chosen by Michael Schiavo and a neurologist picked by the Florida court in charge of the case was "clear and convincing in support of Theresa being in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of improvement." The evidence presented by physicians chosen by Schiavo's parents, according to Wolfson, "was substantially anecdotal, and was reasonably deemed to be not clear and convincing."

In this report, Wolfson also notes he spent much time with Schiavo and "was not able to independently determine that there were consistent, repetitive, intentional, reproducible interactive and aware activities."

Remember, Wolfson was selected by Jeb Bush to review the case. Now, who's more credible: Wolfson or Tom DeLay?

-A


OMG that is totally bullshit.

First of all Michael is a fucking asshole. He's living with his girlfriend!

Second of all I've seen the video.

Third of all I am against Roe V Wade.

In conclussion -- that dude is a jackass for publishing a report that aids in trying to kill this sweet, smiling, young woman -- she's a fucking catholic!

PS - MORE TESTS! MORE PROOF! UNTIL SHE'S not BRAINDEAD, MORE TESTS!!!!!

/end sarcasm.

[Edited on 3-24-2005 by Keller]

[HarmNone]

I hear you, CT. While I see it very differently, I can understand where you're coming from. I guess, because I deal with this in my work, I have to see both sides and I do.

[CrystalTears]

You can mock my beliefs and views all you want, Keller. I will not break nor bend. :moon2:

[Keller]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
You can mock my beliefs and views all you want, Keller. I will not break nor bend. :moon2:

I am mocking the entire situation.

It's a joke.

Which I've said from day one.




This lady will die, and we're going to waste time and money in the meantime.

[Ilvane]

Did you read the report, CT? It's pretty darned convincing.

-A

[CrystalTears]

And I know it's a joke. I obviously understand that as I have a bouncing ass at the end! Geesh.

Yeah she's gonna die NOW cause they took away her food. She wouldn't have otherwise though.

OMG I read the post with the report. I don't have time to read the whole thing in the pdf, but I'm sure the parents have read the report, people all over the f'ing world has read the report. Why does it mean I'll change my mind about helping kill a life that wouldn't have died otherwise? All because she's as lifeless as the old people in nursing homes who are as useless who we feed every day, and the premature infants who are born way too early and we strive to keep them alive.

A life is a life and you can't convince me otherwise that killing a life is the best course to take when it's not documented that it's what she wanted.

[Edited on 3/24/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Ravenstorm]

Jeb Bush called in another doctor to try to claim she is in a "minimally conscious state". He watched videotapes of her and read her medical files before coming up with that diagnosis. He directs a laboratory in a Jacksonville branch of the Mayo Clinic (possibly who xtc meant?) and is, according to Jeb, "a renowned neurologist".

Despite being so renowned, when asked about him, the director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, replied, "Who?" And one of the court appointed neurologists who actually examined Schiavo said:


"I have no idea who this Cheshire is," and added: "He has to be bogus, a pro-life fanatic. You'll not find any credible neurologist or neurosurgeon to get involved at this point and say she's not vegetative."

Searching for any publications of his, the NY Times didn't find a single one that dealt with persistent vegetative states. He did though study headaches a lot.

The article is here (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/national/24doctor.html).

Raven

[Keller]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
Jeb Bush called in another doctor to try to claim she is in a "minimally conscious state". He watched videotapes of her and read her medical files before coming up with that diagnosis. He directs a laboratory in a Jacksonville branch of the Mayo Clinic (possibly who xtc meant?) and is, according to Jeb, "a renowned neurologist".

Despite being so renowned, when asked about him, the director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, replied, "Who?" And one of the court appointed neurologists who actually examined Schiavo said:


"I have no idea who this Cheshire is," and added: "He has to be bogus, a pro-life fanatic. You'll not find any credible neurologist or neurosurgeon to get involved at this point and say she's not vegetative."

Searching for any publications of his, the NY Times didn't find a single one that dealt with persistent vegetative states. He did though study headaches a lot.

The article is here (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/national/24doctor.html).

Raven

MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS MORE TESTS

[Ilvane]

Cheshire is also director of biotech ethics at the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, a group founded in 1994 to recognize the contribution of "biblical values" to the bioethical debate

The Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity exists to help individuals and organizations address the pressing bioethical challenges of our day, including managed care, end-of-life treatment, genetic intervention, euthanasia and suicide, and reproductive technologies. The Center has tax-exempt, not-for-profit status and is supported by gifts and grants from individuals, corporations, and foundations. It is a national and international leader in producing a wide range of live, recorded, and written resources examining bioethical issues. Recognizing that biblical values have exercised a profound influence on Western Culture, the Center explores the potential contribution of such values as part of its work.

In mid-1993, more than a dozen leading Christian bioethicists gathered to assess the noticeable lack of explicit Christian engagement in the crucial bioethics arena. This group sponsored a major conference in May 1994, The Christian Stake in Bioethics, and concurrently launched The Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity.

The Center has initiated a variety of projects, and has ongoing collaborative relationships with many U.S. groups, including the Christian Medical and Dental Society, Nurses Christian Fellowship, and the Christian Legal Society, as well as non-U.S. institutions such as the Centre for Bioethics and Public Policy in London, England, the Linacre Center, London, England, the Lindeboom Institute for Medical Ethics in Ede, Holland, and the Ustav Medicinskej Etiky a Bioetiky, in Bratislava, Slovakia.


-A

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
Jeb Bush called in another doctor to try to claim she is in a "minimally conscious state". He watched videotapes of her and read her medical files before coming up with that diagnosis. He directs a laboratory in a Jacksonville branch of the Mayo Clinic (possibly who xtc meant?) and is, according to Jeb, "a renowned neurologist".

Despite being so renowned, when asked about him, the director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, replied, "Who?" And one of the court appointed neurologists who actually examined Schiavo said:


"I have no idea who this Cheshire is," and added: "He has to be bogus, a pro-life fanatic. You'll not find any credible neurologist or neurosurgeon to get involved at this point and say she's not vegetative."

Searching for any publications of his, the NY Times didn't find a single one that dealt with persistent vegetative states. He did though study headaches a lot.

The article is here (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/national/24doctor.html).

Raven

Judging from the CAT scans I saw, I can just about guarantee that Terri does NOT have a headache. :(

[HarmNone]

These are a few things I can guarantee:

Terri has bedsores (ulcerations at pressure points on her skin). Thankfully, she cannot feel them.

Terri has foot drop. Her feet point down. They are not capable of supporting her anymore.

Terri is bloated and has constant diarrhea from the tube feedings. This contributes further to the skin breakdown.

Terri's limbs are contracted. She could not hold a glass, or anything else, even if she had the mental capacity to do so.

That's just a quick list off the top of my head. Do we keep many of our elderly in this condition? Yep. The question is.....should we? Technology is a wonderful thing, but sometimes it outstrips our ability to deal with it logically, and compassionately.

[HarmNone]

One little item I forgot.....

Terri has absolutely no privacy as far as her body is concerned. When family is unable, or unwilling (in some cases), to care for her, she is handled...in her most private areas...by strangers.

[Keller]

Originally posted by HarmNone
One little item I forgot.....

Terri has absolutely no privacy as far as her body is concerned. When family is unable, or unwilling (in some cases), to care for her, she is handled...in her most private areas...by strangers.

For the Christians who have a hard time with this whole issue -- check out Dr. Allen Verhey and his approach to ethics at the end of life from a theologians perspective. He was my mentor in college and a great man.

[Edited on 3-24-2005 by Keller]

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by HarmNone
These are a few things I can guarantee:

Terri has bedsores (ulcerations at pressure points on her skin). Thankfully, she cannot feel them.

Terri has foot drop. Her feet point down. They are not capable of supporting her anymore.

Terri is bloated and has constant diarrhea from the tube feedings. This contributes further to the skin breakdown.

Terri's limbs are contracted. She could not hold a glass, or anything else, even if she had the mental capacity to do so.

That's just a quick list off the top of my head. Do we keep many of our elderly in this condition? Yep. The question is.....should we? Technology is a wonderful thing, but sometimes it outstrips our ability to deal with it logically, and compassionately.

How many of you would seriously want to live in this state?

[DeV]

Originally posted by Nakiro
How many of you would seriously want to live in this state? This is what I fail to grasp. It seems inhumane to a large degree to forcefully keep someone alive to live in this condition.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Nakiro
How many of you would seriously want to live in this state? This is what I fail to grasp. It seems inhumane to a large degree to forcefully keep someone alive to live in this condition.

I think by arguing that someone is even minimally aware of their surroundings while in such a state of discomfort and agony would only further any argument for euthenasia.

[CrystalTears]

So now she's in a state of agony and discomfort? I thought she was a veggie and couldn't feel or comprehend anything with minimal awareness.