The War on Breastfeeding

[ClydeR]

A resolution to encourage breast-feeding was expected to be approved quickly and easily by the hundreds of government delegates who gathered this spring in Geneva for the United Nations-affiliated World Health Assembly.

Based on decades of research, the resolution says that mother’s milk is healthiest for children and countries should strive to limit the inaccurate or misleading marketing of breast milk substitutes.

Then the United States delegation, embracing the interests of infant formula manufacturers, upended the deliberations.

More... (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/08/health/world-health-breastfeeding-ecuador-trump.html)



The Americans were blunt: If Ecuador refused to drop the resolution, Washington would unleash punishing trade measures and withdraw crucial military aid. The Ecuadorean government quickly acquiesced.

The showdown over the issue was recounted by more than a dozen participants from several countries, many of whom requested anonymity because they feared retaliation from the United States.


In the end, the Americans’ efforts were mostly unsuccessful. It was the Russians who ultimately stepped in to introduce the measure — and the Americans did not threaten them.


This isn't over. Not by a long shot.

[Astray]

Go for it. It ultimately protects naive or first time parents and ends up being scientifically proven healthier for a developing child. Why are people raising a fuss? Oh because Russia was involved? What are you retarded? The US threatened to pull punishing trade measures and crucial military aid from a place that gives enough of a fuck to tell companies to be truthful?

What are we children? "Oh that place wants to tell the truth, stop hanging out with them."

[Tgo01]

What I'm confused about with this story is why was it up to poor and small countries to sponsor this measure? How come no rich large European country stepped in to sponsor it if the US were being such meanie heads to smaller poor countries?

This whole thing sounds strange.

[Astray]

It screams private interest on behalf of the US. It's so transparent they all but fucking named a sponsor.

[Neveragain]

What I'm confused about with this story is why was it up to poor and small countries to sponsor this measure? How come no rich large European country stepped in to sponsor it if the US were being such meanie heads to smaller poor countries?

This whole thing sounds strange.

What's strange to me is how these companies were ever able to convince consumers that formula is better than breast milk.

It's easy to understand not wanting to lose billions in profits, this is the pharma industry we are talking about.

https://steamusercontent-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/882005587672016084/2342802A5A808E3AD6148B6EDDC0EB1F410A4111/

[audioserf]

This has Nestlé's fingerprints all over it.

[Tgo01]

What's strange to me is how these companies were ever able to convince consumers that formula is better than breast milk.

It's easy to understand not wanting to lose billions in profits, this is the pharma industry we are talking about.

https://steamusercontent-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/882005587672016084/2342802A5A808E3AD6148B6EDDC0EB1F410A4111/

Not every woman can or wants to breastfeed.

[Whirlin]

Not every woman can or wants to breastfeed.
All the stories I've heard from people that use formula is that it's done with regret and shame. It's never a WANT not to breastfeed, it's usually just inability to, either because of a infant's inability to latch, or some other such cause. It's cheaper, and there are better health implications. It's kind of a no brainer.

I'm sure there are those that don't want to... But, I echo the points made so far.

[Tgo01]

All the stories I've heard from people that use formula is that it's done with regret and shame.

So far from what I have read this is the US' official reasoning for not liking this particular resolution because it can be seen as shaming women who can't breastfeed.

Also I'm sure there are women who don't want to breastfeed. Baby formula is a multi billion dollar industry, it's unlikely that is from women who just can't breastfeed.

I guess it also depends on how we are defining "can't." Like she can't produce breast milk or she's on medication that prevents her from nursing, or "can't" as in she's too stressed out from work and family and other issues to also breastfeed a newborn. The latter could be seen as she doesn't want to breastfeed rather than she physically can't breastfeed.

[Neveragain]

Not every woman can or wants to breastfeed.

Most can and those that don't want to are stupid selfish bitches.

[Tgo01]

Most can and those that don't want to are stupid selfish bitches.

Well that's kind of mean.

[Neveragain]

Well that's kind of mean.

Hey, have a kid and life is no longer about you. That kid at some point will be expected to change your adult diapers

[Tgo01]

Hey, have a kid and life is no longer about you. That kid at some point will be expected to change your adult diapers

Here I thought the US' defense of this was bullshit, but seeing the vitriol in this thread spewed against women who use formula I'm beginning to think there might be some truth to their argument.

[Methais]

What's strange to me is how these companies were ever able to convince consumers that formula is better than breast milk.

We live in a world where people with probably 2000 lifetime kills are going to spend the next several years trying to collect 100,000 ultra rare items and probably pay thousands in the process trying to buy them for some shitty reward that they'll never actually attain, and even if they did, it will probably be worth 0.1% of what they sunk into it.

tldr: people are dumb as fuck, you can convince most of them of anything if you make it sound good

[Whirlin]

I guess it also depends on how we are defining "can't." Like she can't produce breast milk or she's on medication that prevents her from nursing, or "can't" as in she's too stressed out from work and family and other issues to also breastfeed a newborn. The latter could be seen as she doesn't want to breastfeed rather than she physically can't breastfeed.
That's a fairly isolated list... and I don't think the latter is a fair justification either, as the insinuated reason is purely on the mother, and doesn't take into account other external factors.

If we're talking about a working woman, it is possible that a company (a) doesn't offer a new mother's room/privacy/etc for pumping, (b) a work environment doesn't allow time away from work/desk/etc to pump as necessary, (c) doesn't offer proper refrigerated storage. It's not only about the mothers' intent to breastfeed, it's also about society's ability to enable breastfeeding. And all of that isn't taking into account the public breastfeeding stigma/dramafest that seems to be surfaced every year.

In terms of other problems, four additional physical things come to mind: (a) if the woman has had breast augmentation, it could impede upon milk production, depending on the extent/manner of the surgery, (b) infants born with tongue-tie, which occurs when that little membrane that is under your tongue, and in front of your front teeth to connect upper/bottom lip is too large. That can lead to problems latching, (c) inverted nipples, (d) Premature babies who need to be brought into the NICU are typically initially introduced to bottles, and have a hard time transitioning to breastfeeding.

I actually agree with Neveragain, but just with the asterisks of considering the other things bought up in this post... work environment, society, and ability. Honestly, if a mother is enabled on all those fronts and subsequently chooses not to, it seems greedy.

And now that I think about it... I wonder if the US stance is more about the work environment and worker's rights than the big pharma lobby.

[Amerek]

tldr: people are dumb as fuck, you can convince most of them of anything if you make it sound good

Whats amazing is how people abandon common sense and biology so easily.

Someone suggests vaccines cause autism? Let's just stop, get a relative explosion of polio and measles, and just kill the kids instead.

Someone has an opinion you can change your sex? Let's lop of people's wee-wee's and call whatever they get a vagina. There is some massive regret associated with gender reassignment surgeries (especially for men). Who would have guess that?

[Tgo01]

If we're talking about a working woman, it is possible that a company (a) doesn't offer a new mother's room/privacy/etc for pumping, (b) a work environment doesn't allow time away from work/desk/etc to pump as necessary, (c) doesn't offer proper refrigerated storage. It's not only about the mothers' intent to breastfeed, it's also about society's ability to enable breastfeeding. And all of that isn't taking into account the public breastfeeding stigma/dramafest that seems to be surfaced every year.

Not everything is because of the big mean company or those bible thumping Christians shaming women in public.


In terms of other problems, four additional physical things come to mind: (a) if the woman has had breast augmentation, it could impede upon milk production, depending on the extent/manner of the surgery, (b) infants born with tongue-tie, which occurs when that little membrane that is under your tongue, and in front of your front teeth to connect upper/bottom lip is too large. That can lead to problems latching, (c) inverted nipples, (d) Premature babies who need to be brought into the NICU are typically initially introduced to bottles, and have a hard time transitioning to breastfeeding.

Just off the top of my head; some women just don't produce any or enough milk, certain medications prevent women from breastfeeding, women who use illegal drugs shouldn't breastfeed, surgery can preclude women from breast feeding, certain medical conditions can prevent women from breastfeeding, post partpartum depression can affect a woman's ability or desire to breastfeed. There are all kinds of reasons for why a woman can't breastfeed.


Honestly, if a mother is enabled on all those fronts and subsequently chooses not to, it seems greedy.

I guess I just don't feel I'm in a position to judge women on how they choose to feed their babies and shaming women for choosing not to breastfeed feeds into the stigma for women who actually can't breastfeed their babies.

We're not talking about abusing the child or not feeding the child at all here where I can for sure judge a woman.

[Amerek]

Also, why in the hell do we need a United Nations resolution to *encourage* a natural biologic function? Do they really have nothing better to do? I say abolish the U.N.

[Tgo01]

Also, why in the hell do we need a United Nations resolution to perform a natural biologic function? Do they really have nothing better to do? I say abolish the U.N.

I'm also confused about this. Like this needs some sort of UN resolution. If countries feel this strongly about this issue why can't they go ahead and implement it in their own countries? That plus what I mentioned earlier about this falling on the shoulders of smaller and poorer countries to sponsor at the UN really makes this entire thing sound so strange.

[Amerek]

I'm also confused about this. Like this needs some sort of UN resolution. If countries feel this strongly about this issue why can't they go ahead and implement it in their own countries? That plus what I mentioned earlier about this falling on the shoulders of smaller and poorer countries to sponsor at the UN really makes this entire thing sound so strange.

It reeks of politics and fake news. There's something going on that is beyond "the U.S. is against breastfeeding!" Also, NYT.

[Gelston]

We need a UN resolution that ensures everyone knows that oxygen is required for life.

[ClydeR]

Trump responded to my post..



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhrdNbMV4AAEieQ.jpg

[Whirlin]

I guess I just don't feel I'm in a position to judge women on how they choose to feed their babies and shaming women for choosing not to breastfeed feeds into the stigma for women who actually can't breastfeed their babies.
We're not talking about abusing the child or not feeding the child at all here where I can for sure judge a woman.
I wouldn't shame women for not breastfeeding when one of the (now numerous) reasons prevent them. However, should an able-bodied woman actively decide not to breastfeed, yes, I would shame a woman for reaching that decision.

I understand where you're coming from with your post, and you're right, a lot of those factors are nuanced and not readily accessible without further discussion/knowledge of the person. I'd wouldn't go around to shame a random woman formula feeding. However, if it were an extended family member, or maybe facebook high school 'friend' deciding not to breastfeed when there's nothing preventing her, I'd comment... or like a comment.

When we take into account all of the positive health implications as identified in page 1 of this thread. While it's not malnourishment or abuse, I think we can all agree that it's not in the infant's best interests. If someone is able to provide something better and cheaper for an infant's health, and chooses not to, at the detriment of their child, I absolutely think that it's shame-worthy.

[Tgo01]

Trump responded to my post..



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhrdNbMV4AAEieQ.jpg

Makes sense to me. Another fake news story. Surprisingly this one hasn't gotten much traction that I've noticed...yet.

[Tgo01]

I wouldn't shame women for not breastfeeding when one of the (now numerous) reasons prevent them. However, should an able-bodied woman actively decide not to breastfeed, yes, I would shame a woman for reaching that decision.

Even if she's too stressed, tired, emotionally unable to? Why would you shame a woman for choosing to feed her baby in a way you don't agree with?

[Gelston]

I personally don't care how someone raises their child. Breastfeed, don't breastfeed, not my business. If it were my own child, I'd want it to be breastfed if at all possible.

[Tgo01]

I personally don't care how someone raises their child. Breastfeed, don't breastfeed, not my business. If it were my own child, I'd want it to be breastfed if at all possible.

Don't lie, you'd be feeding your new born BBQ brisket.

[Gelston]

Don't lie, you'd be feeding your new born BBQ brisket.

That is supplemental.

[Methais]

We should buy the UN and Un-Nazi the world.

[Gelston]

We should buy the UN and Un-Nazi the world.

Don't we already pay for most of the UN's operating costs?

[Gelston]

Here it is. So like, the top 4 funders pay more than everyone else combined. The fucking Gates Foundation pays more than Russia.

https://i1.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/figure-1-average-total-annual-contributions-to-53-multi.png?w=768&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C9999px&ssl=1

[Whirlin]

Even if she's too stressed, tired, emotionally unable to? Why would you shame a woman for choosing to feed her baby in a way you don't agree with?
Being stressed, tired, and emotionally drained is what it means to have a newborn!

Breastfeeding directly is much faster with less cleaning and preparation before/after feedings. If you're pumping during work, the two can be on par for the support activity, however, this also enables the continence of others handling some feedings. But if you're stressed/tired/emotionally unable to, wouldn't you want to do the least possible work? If the woman is pumping at work, then there's also the ability for the husband (if he's in the picture) to also support feedings to alleviate stress.

There's a defined benefit associated with breastfeed. Why are you supportive of people punishing their infant because they're too stressed/tired to provide them something that's cheaper, easier, faster, and better?

I'm also skeptical of the Tweet... I think what's more likely is that Trump supports it, but some minions got away from his grasp and overstepped their bounds due to external money.



For Gelston's graph... how does that compare to country GDP? I wonder if it's at least marginally more proportionate based on that? But definitely looks like something that can be improved.

[Methais]

I'm a gigantic boob.

Yes.

[Neveragain]

Here I thought the US' defense of this was bullshit, but seeing the vitriol in this thread spewed against women who use formula I'm beginning to think there might be some truth to their argument.

I would argue there is more societle pressure to not breast feed with the whole"can't you do that in the bathroom" bullshit. Like it's gross or some shit.

[Gelston]

Being stressed, tired, and emotionally drained is what it means to have a newborn!

Breastfeeding directly is much faster with less cleaning and preparation before/after feedings. If you're pumping during work, the two can be on par for the support activity, however, this also enables the continence of others handling some feedings. But if you're stressed/tired/emotionally unable to, wouldn't you want to do the least possible work? If the woman is pumping at work, then there's also the ability for the husband (if he's in the picture) to also support feedings to alleviate stress.

There's a defined benefit associated with breastfeed. Why are you supportive of people punishing their infant because they're too stressed/tired to provide them something that's cheaper, easier, faster, and better?

I'm also skeptical of the Tweet... I think what's more likely is that Trump supports it, but some minions got away from his grasp and overstepped their bounds due to external money.



For Gelston's graph... how does that compare to country GDP? I wonder if it's at least marginally more proportionate based on that? But definitely looks like something that can be improved.

China and Russia should be paying a lot more. No way UK should be funding more than China and no way a foundation should be paying more than Russia. Especially both of them being permanent security council members.

[Methais]

Don't we already pay for most of the UN's operating costs?

Yes, so we might as well own it.

[Parkbandit]

All the stories I've heard from people that use formula is that it's done with regret and shame. It's never a WANT not to breastfeed, it's usually just inability to, either because of a infant's inability to latch, or some other such cause. It's cheaper, and there are better health implications. It's kind of a no brainer.

I'm sure there are those that don't want to... But, I echo the points made so far.

It's never a want not to breastfeed? Do you have any evidence of this?

My wife decided not to breastfeed. She didn't WANT to. So guess what: She didn't.

Kinda throws your "never" theory right out the window.

There are many women who don't breastfeed. Not sure where you are getting your information from, but it's incorrect.

ETA: And she didn't regret her decision nor has she felt any shame in her decision.

[Neveragain]

tldr: people are dumb as fuck, you can convince most of them of anything if you make it sound good

I'm the same way with shit like margarine, why the fuck anyone ever ate that shit is beyond me. How the hell is that shit not staying in a solid form in my bloodstream when it won't even melt on my fucking toast?

The shit wasn't even yellow when it first came on the market, you had to crush a yellow dye pill and squish it around in a plastic bag.

[Orthin]

Being stressed, tired, and emotionally drained is what it means to have a newborn!

Breastfeeding directly is much faster with less cleaning and preparation before/after feedings. If you're pumping during work, the two can be on par for the support activity, however, this also enables the continence of others handling some feedings. But if you're stressed/tired/emotionally unable to, wouldn't you want to do the least possible work? If the woman is pumping at work, then there's also the ability for the husband (if he's in the picture) to also support feedings to alleviate stress.

There's a defined benefit associated with breastfeed. Why are you supportive of people punishing their infant because they're too stressed/tired to provide them something that's cheaper, easier, faster, and better?

I'm also skeptical of the Tweet... I think what's more likely is that Trump supports it, but some minions got away from his grasp and overstepped their bounds due to external money.



For Gelston's graph... how does that compare to country GDP? I wonder if it's at least marginally more proportionate based on that? But definitely looks like something that can be improved.

There’s also scientific proof of certain foods being better for children and adults and a majority of folks in the US don’t adhere to those models either, as with health benefits of exercise and a whole slew of things. If That’s your hill to die on that’s fine but there are so many things that parents/adults/teens/kids don’t do that are obviously/commonly known to be better for them than an alternative and the latter is done.

[Gelston]

There’s also scientific proof of certain foods being better for children and adults and a majority of folks in the US don’t adhere to those models either, as with health benefits of exercise and a whole slew of things. If That’s your hill to die on that’s fine but there are so many things that parents/adults/teens/kids don’t do that are obviously/commonly known to be better for them than an alternative and the latter is done.

Specific foods that are better are also usually more expensive foods. Some people just can't afford that shit.

[Orthin]

Specific foods that are better are also usually more expensive foods. Some people just can't afford that shit.

That’s just one example. Walking and running are free and have great benefit and people don’t do it for themselves or their children.

[Gelston]

That’s just one example. Walking and running are free and have great benefit and people don’t do it for themselves or their children.

Maybe because some people have to work doubles and triples to survive and don't have time for that shit?

Our cheap food is unhealthy as fuck, so you get poor fat people with health problems. That is the reality that exists in the US.

[Orthin]

Maybe because some people have to work doubles and triples to survive and don't have time for that shit?

Our cheap food is unhealthy as fuck, so you get poor fat people with health problems. That is the reality that exists in the US.

So the woman who can’t squeeze in pumping at 2-3 jobs is morally repugnant and not a good mother for keeping the booby train going, but the woman who doesn’t walk with her kids for 30-60 minutes a day or only buys happy meals while working 2-3 jobs is cool? I’m just saying it’s not all about breastmilk. Yes that is a scientific advantage for kids but there are tons of proven but under or un utilized advantages for children. It’s just selective outrage.

[Gelston]

So the woman who can’t squeeze in pumping at 2-3 jobs is morally repugnant and not a good mother for keeping the booby train going, but the woman who doesn’t walk with her kids for 30-60 minutes a day or only buys happy meals while working 2-3 jobs is cool? I’m just saying it’s not all about breastmilk. Yes that is a scientific advantage for kids but there are tons of proven but under or un utilized advantages for children. It’s just selective outrage.

I didn't say that about either of those things. I said I don't give a fuck what someone else does.

[Orthin]

I didn't say that about either of those things. I said I don't give a fuck what someone else does.

I’m glad we agree :)