Second Presidential Debate, Sunday, Oct. 9, 2016, at 9 PM eastern

[ClydeR]

It will be a townhall in St. Louis. Half the questions will be asked by moderators and half by the audience.

Townhall debates are riskier for candidates than traditional debates, mainly because the audience will be made up of undecided voters. Anybody who is still undecided is likely to ask crazy questions.

[ClydeR]

There are two ironclad rules every candidate should follow in townhall debates when an audience member asks a question.

First, you must actually answer the question. If you try to dodge it, the public will not forgive you the way they forgive dodging a question from a professional reporter.

Second, you must always treat the audience member with respect and you must always appear interested. Don't act angry at the question, and don't act impatient. A lot of people think George H.W. Bush's impatient attitude during the 1992 townhall debate sealed his loss and Bill Clinton's victory.

I already said in another thread that Trump should definitely not attend the debate tomorrow night. Based on what I've seen today, I think it's an even worse idea. Trump's tweets and reports from his staff indicate that he will go on the offensive based on Bill Clinton's affairs. It's hard to see how Trump can do that in a townhall forum without alienating the audience. He should save it for speeches at rallies attended by his supporters.








https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBrW2Pz9Iiw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBrW2Pz9Iiw

[Candor]

I think Trump is really going to mess up at this debate. Clinton won't be perfect, but whatever mistakes she makes will be vastly overshadowed by Trump's performance.

[ClydeR]

Turn on the teevee right now. Trump appears to be holding a press conference with Bill Clinton's accusers.

[ClydeR]

This will be painful to watch, like when you know you should look away but you can't.

[ClydeR]

Wow. Neither Clinton nor Trump extended a handshake.

[Androidpk]

"Our country is great because we're good."

lolwtf?

[BriarFox]

Wow. This got ugly really fast.

[Androidpk]

Anyone else see that fly constantly landing on Hillary? They really are attracted to shit.

[Taernath]

'When I become president it's the gulag for you Hillary.'

Wow this is going to be good.

[Soulance]

Anyone else see that fly constantly landing on Hillary? They really are attracted to shit.
That's exactly what I said when I saw it.

[Taernath]

Donald is super triggered

[Androidpk]

Donald is shredding her. She looks flustered, one of her eyes was twitching.

[BriarFox]

Donald is shredding her. She looks flustered, one of her eyes was twitching.


You have to be joking. Donald is incoherent, rambling, and disrespectful beyond belief.

[Androidpk]

You have to be joking. Donald is incoherent, rambling, and disrespectful beyond belief.

You didn't find Hillary calling Bill's rape victims liars to be disrespectful beyond belief?

[Taernath]

Why is he pacing around the stage? I think he's going to snap.

[Warriorbird]

Howard Dean was onto something.

[Androidpk]

Why is he pacing around the stage? I think he's going to snap.

How awesome would it be if he just picked up Hillary and body slammed her.

[ClydeR]

Why is he wandering around the stage? I think he's going to snap.


He should not be pacing. Gore did that against Bush. Just a little practice would have prevented it in this debate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAUcyfKESts


But Clinton is smiling too much. She shouldn't be so happy.

[Taernath]

How awesome would it be if he just picked up Hillary and body slammed her.

He was doing a little calisthenic routine on that chair while she was talking. Getting warmed up. Maybe he will.

[BriarFox]

Trump should just grab Clinton by the pussy and demand a blowjob.

[Androidpk]

lol at Hillary blaming the violence in Syria on Russian aggression. Completely forgets to mention she helped armed the Salafist jihadists over there.

[Soulance]

]But Clinton is smiling too much. She shouldn't be so happy.
I'm betting it's a nervous smile. She's had it since he mentioned he'd nail her with a personal investigation if he becomes President.

[~Rocktar~]

Any betting pool on IF the third debate even happens or if it will require a ring, an announcer and a steel cage?

[Androidpk]

Pay no attention to our leaked scandals, the Russians are coming!

[BriarFox]

Trump looks constipated. I think he may have just crapped his diaper.

[Dendum]

Vote for me I know nothing about Russia

[Warriorbird]

Vote for me I know nothing about Russia

Almost Johnson-esque.

[Androidpk]

The audience is loving all these attacks on Hillary. That's got to be getting on her nerves, all those people laughing at her.

[Taernath]

Did Trump just refer to himself in the third person? This is a game changer.

[BriarFox]

... I think Trump just admitted to the billion dollar loss and write off.

[Androidpk]

... I think just Trump just admitted to the billion dollar loss and write off.

and?

[ClydeR]

I'm betting it's a nervous smile. She's had it since he mentioned he'd nail her with a personal investigation if he becomes President.

That should be the biggest news from the debate so far. It would be a big change in the relationship between the White House and the Attorney General.

[Soulance]

That should be the biggest news from the debate so far. It would be a big change in the relationship between the White House and the Attorney General.
Not sure if it's true, but more and more reports are coming out from the FBI about how the Hillary dismissal was an embarrassment to the Bureau. I think they'd like to get their juevos back.

[Androidpk]

Jesus Christ.. Hillary wants to end the violence in Syria by going to war with Russia.. what a fucking moron she is!

[Androidpk]

Not sure if it's true, but more and more reports are coming out from the FBI about how the Hillary dismissal was an embarrassment to the Bureau. I think they'd like to get their juevos back.

I've spoken with several former and current agents and they're all livid at how the FBI's image has been tarnished by the events of that case.

[ClydeR]

That should be the biggest news from the debate so far. It would be a big change in the relationship between the White House and the Attorney General.

I spoke too soon. The Syria answer should be the biggest news. Pence is in a tough situation after Trump's Syria answer. Raddatz smells blood, but Trump is too slick for her.

House Republicans have a phone conference tomorrow. Ryan will have to take action after that.

[Archigeek]

This moderator is terrible. It's not her job to argue with Trump, that's his opponent's job.

[Soulance]

This moderator is terrible. It's not her job to argue with Trump, that's his opponent's job.
I noticed that too. She's got an edge on her about Trump and that's not right as a moderator...though it happens.

[Warriorbird]

Major rumors swirling in real time, right now that @mike_pence has asked 2 be removed from the Presidential ticket. Historic Wow. #debate

— Steve Clemons (@SCClemons) October 10, 2016

[Soulance]

I think a lot of the smiling is because she doesn't know how to handle Trump. She's loaded up with "politician" talk and how to banter with them, but he isn't the same. Her little "I'm people like all of you too" snipes are just laughable at best.

[Archigeek]

Only watching snippets of this one, but the format feels weird. Both candidates look uncomfortable to me. Trump less than Clinton.

[Androidpk]

Both moderators are terrible tonight.

[ClydeR]

If you have to compliment your opponent, it should be a compliment unrelated to being President.

[Androidpk]

Compliment your opponent: Hillary spends most of her time talking about herself.

[Soulance]

If you have to compliment your opponent, it should be a compliment unrelated to being President.
At least Trump said something about Hillary that was nice. She said it about his kids which totally side-stepped the question (though she did sneak in a little remark that it was attributed to him I guess). But again, typical politician.

[Dendum]

https://youtu.be/KMsryQSdT_k

Trump did well enough to keep going.
Clinton did well enough to keep her lead.

[Tgo01]

Okay time for Tgo01's opinion: I think overall Trump dominated this debate. He had a few hiccups here and there but overall he kept the attack on Hillary and I think it worked.

But in the end I don't think it will matter and I think Hillary will win.

I don't WANT her to win, but that's what I think will happen.

[Wesley]

But in the end I don't think it will matter and I think Hillary will win.


This guy's endorsing Hillary! GET HIM!

[Tgo01]

This guy's endorsing Hillary! GET HIM!

Not endorsing, coming to terms with the terrible, horrible, God awful truth :(

[Ardwen]

I want to know how CLyde got the coke Trump was snorting delivered

[Geijon Khyree]

Debate was a wash. I think the trend continues on undecided voters moving towards Hillary. Those who are Team Blue/Team Red already have their vote locked in.

[Androidpk]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuXo0VOWgAA9cKd.jpg

[time4fun]

Debate was a wash. I think the trend continues on undecided voters moving towards Hillary. Those who are Team Blue/Team Red already have their vote locked in.

Agreed. Though he has enough insane enough with enough crazy quotes that will trickle through the news cycle, and that's going to be net bad for him.

[Taernath]

Okay time for Tgo01's opinion: I think overall Trump dominated this debate. He had a few hiccups here and there but overall he kept the attack on Hillary and I think it worked.

It was a rambling, incomprehensible attack, but sure, he kept it up in the face of unrelated questions.

[BriarFox]

Trump looked angry and obstreperous the entire time, while Clinton looked composed and compassionate, minus a few moments of justifiable consternation at Trump's comments. Moreover, when pressed for specifics, Trump either had none or wandered well off topic. Hillary won decisively.

However, the moderators did favor her on the time limits, at least as far as I can tell without looking up specifics.

[Androidpk]

Trump looked angry and obstreperous the entire time, while Clinton looked composed and compassionate, minus a few moments of justifiable consternation at Trump's comments. Moreover, when pressed for specifics, Trump either had none or wandered well off topic. Hillary won decisively.

However, the moderators did favor her on the time limits, at least as far as I can tell without looking up specifics.

Hillary looked flustered and nervous and got her ass kicked. All she did was rattle off talking points and lie when confronted about her scandals and poor judgment in foreign policy.

[Androidpk]

Hillary was really compassionate when she called the women who accused her husband of raping them liars.

[BriarFox]

Hillary was really compassionate when she called the women who accused her husband of raping them liars.

Mkay, Trump Jr.

[Tgo01]

It was a rambling, incomprehensible attack, but sure, he kept it up in the face of unrelated questions.

Exactly. The question is did Trump look worse for bringing up stuff unrelated to the question he was asked or did he make Hillary look worse. I think it was the latter.

[Tgo01]

Clinton looked composed and compassionate

Are we talking about the same debate? The one that took place tonight, 10/09/2016?


Hillary won decisively.

You're just joshing us, right?

[Androidpk]

Mkay, Trump Jr.

So you agree with her that those women are all lying about Bill raping them? Good to know you're a rape apologist.

[Taernath]

Hillary was really compassionate when she called the women who accused her husband of raping them liars.

I thought Trump was planning to have them jump out of the audience and attack Hillary Springer-style, but they didn't, and America is lessened for it.

[Androidpk]

I thought Trump was planning to have them jump out of the audience and attack Hillary Springer-style, but they didn't, and America is lessened for it.

They should have bum rushed Bill with cattle prods while Trump body slammed Hillary onto the moderator's table.

[Taernath]

Major rumors swirling in real time, right now that @mike_pence has asked 2 be removed from the Presidential ticket. Historic Wow. #debate

— Steve Clemons (@SCClemons) October 10, 2016

Also, no, Pence said he is "standing with Trump" after the debate, so he's still around.

http://i.imgur.com/HgiMVVQ.jpg

[Tgo01]

I was rolling my eyes that the second question of the debate was the stupid grab them by the pussy tape, but after that I was kind of surprised by how hard the moderators were going after Hillary. Totally different than the beta male moderator they had during the first debate.

[Androidpk]

It was interesting to see Hillary change her story on her email server. She's been saying for over a year now that there was no classified information sent or received. Now she says there was classified information but there's no proof that it was compromised or hacked by anyone.. :jerkit:

[Androidpk]

http://i.imgur.com/NxM7gkP.jpg

[Tgo01]

http://i.imgur.com/NxM7gkP.jpg

But Trump said something crude 11 years ago!!!!

[Tgo01]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrHJIZDIJfg&feature=youtu.be

[Warriorbird]

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--D7yn9yf8--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/gjefizsol1xwfswm72pc.gif

[Neveragain]

Trump looked angry and obstreperous the entire time, while Clinton looked composed and compassionate, minus a few moments of justifiable consternation at Trump's comments. Moreover, when pressed for specifics, Trump either had none or wandered well off topic. Hillary won decisively.

However, the moderators did favor her on the time limits, at least as far as I can tell without looking up specifics.

I had no idea that members of the PC were a part of CNN's fake focus group.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2EeuQJORJc

#Whitepower

[BriarFox]

I had no idea that members of the PC were a part of CNN's fake focus group.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2EeuQJORJc

#Whitepower

Despite my better judgment, I watched your clip. It shows the moderator repeating Hillary's statement before they go live, and then the superimposed head of an asshole trying to spin that into answer coaching.

[Methais]

I missed the debate, so in order to find out who won I'll wait for time4fun to post and then apply the opposite to everything she says happened.

[Soulance]

while Clinton looked composed and compassionate, minus a few moments of justifiable consternation at Trump's comments..
Interesting how people see thing differently. She was totally shaken up and didn't know what to do other than ramble and lie. As I said, she threw in her garbage political ramble when she tried to "empathize" with people (my daddy was a drapery maker) yet she hauls in over 250 mil a year with her political scandals. Yea, she's one of the peeps... Boils down to - she took a class or two in Psychology. She's horrible at it, and what's even worse, people buy that crap she spews.

Trump nailed it when he talked about her $ backers. She isn't going to change anything for the tax code because it will just hurt her. And guess what, changing the tax code to tax the rich - just going to hurt the middle class. So, why not go for the one who will at least try to cut middle class to 15%? Not going to be Billary.

Trump surely rambled and avoided questions as well, but that's how he is.

[macgyver]

Think the polls will turn around in his favor come November, the libs popped open their secret weapon (the tape) too early. Unless, they got something even more damaging right before the election.

[Soulance]

Think the polls will turn around in his favor come November, the libs popped open their secret weapon (the tape) too early. Unless, they got something even more damaging right before the election.
I have a feeling the WikiLeaks are just getting started. And I'd love to see Bernie grow a set and start dumping on Hillary, but he's too much of a wuss...which is why he lost.

[Androidpk]

- “Just get that fucking dog out of my way,” said to Secret Service K-9 handler (http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/08/dogs_turn_paws_down_on_hillary.html#ixzz4KS89vjFW) .

- “Where is the God damn flag? I want the God damn fucking flag up every morning at fucking sunrise”. Hillary to staff at the Arkansas Governor’s mansion on Labor Day 1991. From the book “Inside the White House” by Ronald Kessler, p. 244

- “Fuck off! It’s enough I have to see you shit-kickers every day! I’m not going to talk to you, too! Just do your Goddamn job and keep your mouth shut.” Hillary to her State Trooper bodyguards after one of them greeted her with “Good Morning.” From the book “America Evita” by Christopher Anderson, p.90

- “If you want to remain on this detail, get your fucking ass over here and grab those bags!” Hillary to a Secret Service Agent who was reluctant to carry her luggage because he wanted to keep his hands free in case of an incident. From the book “The First Partner” p. 25

- “Stay the fuck back, stay the fuck back away from me! Don’t come within ten yards of me, or else! Just fucking do as I say, Okay!!?” Hillary screaming at her Secret Service detail. From the book “Unlimited Access” by Clinton ‘s FBI Agent-in-Charge, Gary Aldridge, p.139

- “Where’s the miserable cock sucker?” (otherwise known as “Bill Clinton”) Hillary shouting at a Secret Service officer. From the book “The Truth about Hillary” by Edward Klein, p. 5

- “You fucking idiot” Hillary to a State Trooper who was driving her to an event. From the book “Crossfire” ~pg. 84

- “Put this on the ground! I left my sunglasses in the limo. I need those fucking sunglasses! We need to go back!” Hillary to Marine One helicopter pilot to turn back while in route to Air Force One. From the book ” Dereliction of Duty” p. 71-72

- “Come on Bill, put your dick up! You can’t fuck her here!!” Hillary to Gov. Bill Clinton when she spots him talking with an attractive female. From the book “Inside the White House” by Ronald Kessler, p. 243

[time4fun]

I have a feeling the WikiLeaks are just getting started. And I'd love to see Bernie grow a set and start dumping on Hillary, but he's too much of a wuss...which is why he lost.

Yeah conservatives have been harboring that wet dream all year. Trump is the less vetted candidate- he's more prone to October surprises.

And the polls aren't going to break in his favor. His base may be fired up at the insane things he said last night- because they've already accepted most of his lies as truth- but the other 65% of the country saw an unhinged sociopath that they don't want anywhere near power.

[Soulance]

Yeah conservatives have been harboring that wet dream all year. Trump is the less vetted candidate- he's more prone to October surprises.

And the polls aren't going to break in his favor. His base may be fired up at the insane things he said last night- because they've already accepted most of his lies as truth- but the other 65% of the country saw an unhinged sociopath that they don't want anywhere near power.
Lies were pretty continuous on both sides.

[Soulance]

- “Just get that fucking dog out of my way,” said to Secret Service K-9 handler (http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/08/dogs_turn_paws_down_on_hillary.html#ixzz4KS89vjFW) .

- “Where is the God damn flag? I want the God damn fucking flag up every morning at fucking sunrise”. Hillary to staff at the Arkansas Governor’s mansion on Labor Day 1991. From the book “Inside the White House” by Ronald Kessler, p. 244

- “Fuck off! It’s enough I have to see you shit-kickers every day! I’m not going to talk to you, too! Just do your Goddamn job and keep your mouth shut.” Hillary to her State Trooper bodyguards after one of them greeted her with “Good Morning.” From the book “America Evita” by Christopher Anderson, p.90

- “If you want to remain on this detail, get your fucking ass over here and grab those bags!” Hillary to a Secret Service Agent who was reluctant to carry her luggage because he wanted to keep his hands free in case of an incident. From the book “The First Partner” p. 25

- “Stay the fuck back, stay the fuck back away from me! Don’t come within ten yards of me, or else! Just fucking do as I say, Okay!!?” Hillary screaming at her Secret Service detail. From the book “Unlimited Access” by Clinton ‘s FBI Agent-in-Charge, Gary Aldridge, p.139

- “Where’s the miserable cock sucker?” (otherwise known as “Bill Clinton”) Hillary shouting at a Secret Service officer. From the book “The Truth about Hillary” by Edward Klein, p. 5

- “You fucking idiot” Hillary to a State Trooper who was driving her to an event. From the book “Crossfire” ~pg. 84

- “Put this on the ground! I left my sunglasses in the limo. I need those fucking sunglasses! We need to go back!” Hillary to Marine One helicopter pilot to turn back while in route to Air Force One. From the book ” Dereliction of Duty” p. 71-72

- “Come on Bill, put your dick up! You can’t fuck her here!!” Hillary to Gov. Bill Clinton when she spots him talking with an attractive female. From the book “Inside the White House” by Ronald Kessler, p. 243


Back to a psychology lesson - she's bi-polar. Just wait for that to snap.

[ClydeR]

This would have been exciting..


ST. LOUIS — Donald Trump’s campaign sought to intimidate Hillary Clinton and embarrass her husband by seating women who have accused former president Bill Clinton of sexual abuse in the Trump family’s box at the presidential debate here Sunday night, according to four people involved in the discussions.

The campaign’s plan, which was closely held and unknown to several of Trump’s top aides, was thwarted just minutes before it could be executed when officials with the Commission on Presidential Debates intervened. The commission officials warned that, if the Trump campaign tried to seat the accusers in the elevated family box, security officers would remove the women, according to the people involved, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the discussions were confidential.

The gambit to give Bill Clinton’s accusers prime seats was devised by Trump campaign chief executive Stephen K. Bannon and Jared Kushner, the candidate’s son-in-law, and approved personally by Trump. The four women — three of whom have alleged Bill Clinton sexually assaulted or harassed them years ago — were to walk in the debate hall at the same time as the 42nd president and confront him in front of a national television audience.

More... (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/10/trumps-debate-plan-to-seat-bill-clintons-accusers-in-family-box-was-thwarted/)

[Neveragain]

Despite my better judgment, I watched your clip. It shows the moderator repeating Hillary's statement before they go live, and then the superimposed head of an asshole trying to spin that into answer coaching.

After last night, the only thing that people are left with that are not hacks is this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-HQakSQvgA

I personally didn't watch the debate I had more important things to do, like trimming my nose hairs. I don't have any skin in the game anyway because I'm a white male #Whitepower. Besides why would I want to watch when we all knew it would be easily summed up as:

CNN: Mr. Trump you said mean things this one time.

Trump: Yea that was pretty trashy, sorry. At least my spouse is not a rapist.

Hillary: Trump said mean things.

As a white male I'm just glad this will have no effect on me. #Whitepower

[time4fun]

Lies were pretty continuous on both sides.

The fact checkers have been pretty clear this morning- he was by far the worst offender last night.

And, for once, his truths were actually more terrifying than his lies. The things that came out of his mouth last night- like threatening to abuse his office to jail a political rival- sent shivers down most peoples' spines.

[time4fun]

After last night, the only thing that people are left with that are not hacks is this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-HQakSQvgA

I personally didn't watch the debate I had more important things to do, like trimming my nose hairs. I don't have any skin in the game anyway because I'm a white male #Whitepower. Besides why would I want to watch when we all knew it would be easily summed up as:

CNN: Mr. Trump you said mean things this one time.

Trump: Yea that was pretty trashy, sorry. At least my spouse is not a rapist.

Hillary: Trump said mean things.

As a white male I'm just glad this will have no effect on me. #Whitepower

Why am I not surprised that you have all these great opinions about a debate you never watched?

I wonder which of the insane conservative clown posse you are?

[Parkbandit]

Trump should just grab Clinton by the pussy and demand a blowjob.

She plays for the other team.

[Parkbandit]

Pay no attention to our leaked scandals, the Russians are coming!

The 1980's called and they want their foreign policy back...

[Parkbandit]

Compliment your opponent: Hillary spends most of her time talking about herself.

Yea.. "ok, give us something you like about your opponent"

"um, I like his kids"

WTF? At least Trump seemed gracious and honest about his response. She was like 'Derp, derp.. I can't say anything that might cause me to drop anymore in the polls... let's think think... what would my focus group tell me to say!??"

[Warriorbird]

Yea.. "ok, give us something you like about your opponent"

"um, I like his kids"

WTF? At least Trump seemed gracious and honest about his response. She was like 'Derp, derp.. I can't say anything that might cause me to drop anymore in the polls... let's think think... what would my focus group tell me to say!??"

I thought it was a shoutout to Tiffany because she's a Democrat but slightly awkward because she had to include the others.

[Parkbandit]

Trump looked angry and obstreperous the entire time, while Clinton looked composed and compassionate, minus a few moments of justifiable consternation at Trump's comments. Moreover, when pressed for specifics, Trump either had none or wandered well off topic. Hillary won decisively.

However, the moderators did favor her on the time limits, at least as far as I can tell without looking up specifics.

Damn.. I thought time4fun carried her water..

[Neveragain]

Why am I not surprised that you have all these great opinions about a debate you never watched?

I wonder which of the insane conservative clown posse you are?

I'm now using Facebook as my barometer, there is no need to watch a debate. It's the new CNN standard.

[Androidpk]

Yeah conservatives have been harboring that wet dream all year. Trump is the less vetted candidate- he's more prone to October surprises.

And the polls aren't going to break in his favor. His base may be fired up at the insane things he said last night- because they've already accepted most of his lies as truth- but the other 65% of the country saw an unhinged sociopath that they don't want anywhere near power.

You keep acting as if only conservatives don't like Hillary. I know it may come as a shock to you but there are millions of democratic and independent voters that can't stand the corrupt bitch and want to see her go down hard.

[ClydeR]

WTF? At least Trump seemed gracious and honest about his response. She was like 'Derp, derp.. I can't say anything that might cause me to drop anymore in the polls... let's think think... what would my focus group tell me to say!??"

Trump has been saying for months that Clinton does not have the "stamina" to be president. Then last night he contradicted himself by complimenting her stamina. When you said he was honest, were you referring to last night or to the occasions when he said she lacked stamina?

At this point, Trump is just serving his own ego and dragging down the rest of the Republican Party with him. If he actually cared about Republican policy issues, then he would withdraw.

[Parkbandit]

I thought it was a shoutout to Tiffany because she's a Democrat but slightly awkward because she had to include the others.

She would be the Democrat. She's jobless and still living off her parents.. her "occupation" is listed as "heiress".

Plus, she has 2 worthless degrees her father paid for.. so there's that!

[Parkbandit]

You keep acting as if only conservatives don't like Hillary. I know it may come as a shock to you but there are millions of democratic and independent voters that can't stand the corrupt bitch and want to see her go down hard.

She doesn't do that.. as Bill said, "She's had more pussy than I have!"

[Androidpk]

like threatening to abuse his office to jail a political rival- sent shivers down most peoples' spines.

Is that why all the independents in the audience were cheering? And where is the abuse in calling for a special prosecutor to prosecute a criminal? You certainly don't care that Obama has abused his office to keep cronies from going to prison.

[Kembal]

I dunno how you guys think that a Presidential candidate who says he hasn't spoken with his running mate and disagrees with him on a major foreign policy issue won a debate. That just seems ridiculous.

I thought the debate was a draw, but I missed the first 30 minutes, which I gather was Trump's worst part.

[Soulance]

The fact checkers have been pretty clear this morning- he was by far the worst offender last night.
Lies are lies. I don't really care who is better or worse at it.


threatening to abuse his office to jail a political rival- sent shivers down most peoples' spines.
It sure did mine - from excitement! Because something like this is LOOOOOOOOOONG overdue. If anything comes of this debate season it should be of how horrific corruption has become and how badly it needs to change.

[Kembal]

Is that why all the independents in the audience were cheering? And where is the abuse in calling for a special prosecutor to prosecute a criminal? You certainly don't care that Obama has abused his office to keep cronies from going to prison.

What makes you think those were independents? The audience cheers were from people not asking questions.

[Neveragain]

Rep "Just go away"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSZxmZmBfnU

[Androidpk]

I dunno how you guys think that a Presidential candidate who says he hasn't spoken with his running mate and disagrees with him on a major foreign policy issue won a debate. That just seems ridiculous.

I thought the debate was a draw, but I missed the first 30 minutes, which I gather was Trump's worst part.

I wouldn't expect a president and his VP to agree on absolutely everything. In this case Trumps stance is correct. Going to war with Russia over Syria, as Hillary suggested, is absolutely the WORST idea ever. Why the fuck anyone would want to risk a nuclear confrontation is beyond me but it just goes to show how out of touch with reality Hillary is.

[Parkbandit]

It's very telling when most of the Hillary supporters say it was a draw. You know they wouldn't ever say Trump won.

[Parkbandit]

I wouldn't expect a president and his VP to agree on absolutely everything. In this case Trumps stance is correct. Going to war with Russia over Syria, as Hillary suggested, is absolutely the WORST idea ever. Why the fuck anyone would want to risk a nuclear confrontation is beyond me but it just goes to show how out of touch with reality Hillary is.

You need to relax. She has another reset button.. and maybe she can James Taylor to sing "You Got A Friend" to them.

[Androidpk]

It's very telling when most of the Hillary supporters say it was a draw. You know they wouldn't ever say Trump won.

Hah, I was musing over this earlier. Liberal media not immediately blasting out that Hillary won the debate is a sure sign they know she lost.

[Taernath]

Hah, I was musing over this earlier. Liberal media not immediately blasting out that Hillary won the debate is a sure sign they know she lost.

But when the GOP said Pence won the debate before it even started, it's different?

[Androidpk]

But when the GOP said Pence won the debate before it even started, it's different?

No.

[Ashliana]

e when she tried to "empathize" with people (my daddy was a drapery maker) yet she hauls in over 250 mil a year with her political scandals.

The Clintons' joint tax returns reflect an income of about $10,000,000-$28,000,000 a year. 10.7 in 2015, 28 in 2014, 27 in 2013, 20 in 2012, 15 in 2011, 13 in 2010.

Where are you getting your numbers?


Trump nailed it when he talked about her $ backers. She isn't going to change anything for the tax code because it will just hurt her. And guess what, changing the tax code to tax the rich - just going to hurt the middle class. So, why not go for the one who will at least try to cut middle class to 15%? Not going to be Billary.

Dat thought process.


The 1980's called and they want their foreign policy back...

1) Romney was right! Russia really IS the #1 geopolitical threat to the United States!
2) I'm going to vote for Donald Trump, who effusively praises Putin and, implicitly, his politics and style of governance.

Pick one.


Ravings

There are dangerously low amounts of blood in your Kool-Aid stream. You might want to see a doctor about that.

[time4fun]

Uh.

CNN's Post Debate Poll (along with Gallup- this is the gold standard for post-debate reaction polls):

Q: Who won the debate?

Clinton: 57%
Trump: 34%

Clinton won by a 23 point margin.

Q: Favorability

Clinton: +2 favorable post-debate, -2 unfavorable post-debate
Clinton: Overall: Net +11 favorability (+3)

Trump: No change in favorability post-debate
Trump: Overall: Net -30 favorability (+0)

Q: Who is best on X issue? (numbers in parentheses are the net change pre/post debate)

Economy-
Clinton: +14 (+10)

Terrorism-
Clinton: +17 (+6)

Immigration-
Clinton: +17

Q: Personal Qualities

Strong Leader-
Clinton: +21 (+4)

Honest and Trustworthy-
Clinton: +17

Spent More Time Attacking Opponent-
Trump- +52

Seemed to Care About The Needs of the Audience Members-
Clinton: +46

Better Addressed Concerns You Had About Their Candidacy-
Clinton- +27 (+5)

Answered Questions More Directly-
Clinton- +38

Has The Proper Temperment-
Clinton: +37

Q: More Likely To Vote For...?
Clinton: 25%
Trump: 21%
No Effect: 53%
No Opinion: 1%

[Androidpk]

lolClintonNewsNetwork

[Androidpk]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuYPHuQXYAA2xNJ.jpg

[Taernath]

lul that Buzzfeed poll is up to 92% Trump (2.8 million votes)

IT'S A CHRISTMAS MIRACLE

Clinton is also winning that Mediaite poll (59% - 40%), and a few others have been taken down for vote manipulation.

Gary Fucking Johnson won the debate according to the Washington Times poll

[time4fun]

lul that Buzzfeed poll is up to 92% Trump (2.8 million votes)

IT'S A CHRISTMAS MIRACLE

LOL, right? I love the comparison between scientific pollster-run polls and online readership polls.

it tells you so much about what's going on with the right these days. PK knows full well that those readership polls are meaningless, and that the CNN poll is actually reputable and believable. But it doesn't stop him from trying to convince everyone otherwise.

But the super creepy thing? He also knows that we know the difference.

Which makes you wonder- why even try that kind of argumentation when you know that everyone in the room- including you- realizes it's utter BS?

That basically sums up the hard core right these days.

[Soulance]

Where are you getting your numbers?
Eh, I thought I heard Trump say it somewhere. And as we all know - tax numbers can be skewed and hidden. According to Hillary, once you hit $250k - you're super-rich anyway so it doesn't matter past then. Point was and still is, she isn't anywhere near the middle or lower class and the ability to empathize with them.


2) I'm going to vote for Donald Trump, who effusively praises Putin and, implicitly, his politics and style of governance.
Keep your friends close...and you're frenimies closer!

[Androidpk]

LOL, right? I love the comparison between scientific pollster-run polls and online readership polls.

it tells you so much about what's going on with the right these days. PK knows full well that those readership polls are meaningless, and that the CNN poll is actually reputable and believable. But it doesn't stop him from trying to convince everyone otherwise.

But the super creepy thing? He also knows that we know the difference.

Which makes you wonder- why even try that kind of argumentation when you know that everyone in the room- including you- realizes it's utter BS?

That basically sums up the hard core right these days.

You think Gallup polls are the gold standard yet the CEO himself said their polling during the 2012 election was way off mark, and no, that CNN poll is not actually reputable and believable.

[time4fun]

Eh, I thought I heard Trump say it somewhere. And as we all know - tax numbers can be skewed and hidden. According to Hillary, once you hit $250k - you're super-rich anyway so it doesn't matter past then. Point was and still is, she isn't anywhere near the middle or lower class and the ability to empathize with them.


Keep your friends close...and you're frenimies closer!

Uh, once you hit 250k a year, you ARE super rich.

And let's be clear here- my mother raised me and my sister on 25k a year without even a middle school education, and as an adult my household makes twice the $250k threshold you're mocking. The fact that I'm well off now does not prevent me from empathizing and sympathizing with lower and middle class life. On the contrary- my current life lets me look back on my old life with new eyes, and I understand just how bad it was in a way that I couldn't at the time because I had never even seen financial stability in real life. It's made me even more ardently progressive and passionate about income equality. (Because some of us don't believe in kicking the ladder out from under us when we're fortunate enough to get to climb up)

Donald Trump, on the other hand, has never known anything but abject wealth. And you don't actually need to have been poor to sympathize (though certainly you would need to in order to empathize), but Trump has more than proven that he is wholly incapable of sympathy or empathy.


So I'm not sure what point you think you're making here, but it's failing on all fronts.

[Ashliana]

You don't seem to be able to divorce "I want Donald Trump to win" from "I think Donald Trump is going to win," Pk. There's a reason even Tgo01 can see the writing on the wall.

Apparently nobody told Trump that he needs to expand his voter base beyond his rabid supporters. He spent both debates throwing red meat at the base that already supports him, and did absolutely nothing to convince anyone else.

So, I'll ask you directly: In your "informed" opinion, Pk, do you think Trump is going to win? If so, what would you peg the likelihood?

[Androidpk]

Keep your friends close...and you're frenimies closer!

I'll take detente with Russia instead of war with them any day of the week.

[Androidpk]

You don't seem to be able to divorce "I want Donald Trump to win" from "I think Donald Trump is going to win," Pk. There's a reason even Tgo01 can see the writing on the wall.

Apparently nobody told Trump that he needs to expand his voter base beyond his rabid supporters. He spent both debates throwing red meat at the base that already supports him, and did absolutely nothing to convince anyone else.

So, I'll ask you directly: In your "informed" opinion, Pk, do you think Trump is going to win? If so, what would you peg the likelihood?

You seemed confused about my position because I don't want Trump to win. As far as my opinion goes at this point it's a tossup. I think it's going to be a very close race and has a chance of going either way.

[Kembal]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuYPHuQXYAA2xNJ.jpg

This is where you need to take a statistics class.

[time4fun]

You don't seem to be able to divorce "I want Donald Trump to win" from "I think Donald Trump is going to win," Pk. There's a reason even Tgo01 can see the writing on the wall.

Apparently nobody told Trump that he needs to expand his voter base beyond his rabid supporters. He spent both debates throwing red meat at the base that already supports him, and did absolutely nothing to convince anyone else.

So, I'll ask you directly: In your "informed" opinion, Pk, do you think Trump is going to win? If so, what would you peg the likelihood?

Trump was just trying to save face in an insanely selfish way last night. He knows it's over for him, but he's looking to get payback from everyone he feels has slighted him. To do that- he needed to get his army back.

He wants to use his army of followers to punish everyone who abandoned him over the weekend (who are now in a horrible, horrible place). Kellyanne was on the morning show circuit today basically threatening GOP rank and file who turn their backs on Trump (she hinted that she could drum up allegations of sexual misconduct against each of them- it was insane). He got his dig in at Pence, who is now stuck on the ticket and has to smile through Trump humiliating him last night. And he doesn't care that the GOP could go down in flames over his campaign- we won't stand for them succeeding without him.

The man is seriously terrifying.

[macgyver]

This is where you need to take a statistics class.

If all the angry white male -working class- voters came out to vote for Trump, there's a strong chance he can still pull off Ohio, Florida, NC, and Nevada. That's enough to bring the election to recount or even to the courts; I really don't believe the election will end on Nov 8th.

[time4fun]

You seemed confused about my position because I don't want Trump to win. As far as my opinion goes at this point it's a tossup. I think it's going to be a very close race and has a chance of going either way.

God, if only we had some way to measure the likelihood of the outcome of the election.

I mean, something, anything that might tell us how Trump is doing?

Someone should seriously invent that.

[time4fun]

If all the angry white male -working class- voters came out to vote for Trump, there's a strong chance he can still pull off Ohio, Florida, NC, and Nevada. That's enough to bring the election to recount or even to the courts; I really don't believe the election will end on Nov 8th.

Except they won't. They don't all support Trump.

And even IF that happened- you realize she'd still have 272 electoral votes, right?

To win, Trump would have to grab EVERY single one of those states AND flip another state. There's nothing left for him to flip. PA and CO were his only chances, and he's getting decimated in each.

It's over.

[Kembal]

If all the angry white male -working class- voters came out to vote for Trump, there's a strong chance he can still pull off Ohio, Florida, NC, and Nevada. That's enough to bring the election to recount or even to the courts; I really don't believe the election will end on Nov 8th.

Just checked your numbers: even if he flips all four of those states, Clinton still wins with 272 EV. That's presuming he wins Iowa, all of Nebraska, and gets one electoral vote in Maine. What other state did you think he was going to win?

[Androidpk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mv-7EVWF3Y

[Androidpk]

God, if only we had some way to measure the likelihood of the outcome of the election.

I mean, something, anything that might tell us how Trump is doing?

Someone should seriously invent that.

Ashliana was asking for my opinion, geez.. pay attention already.

[time4fun]

Ashliana was asking for my opinion, geez.. pay attention already.

Yes, but the point is that once, just once you should try forming an opinion on actual facts.

[Kembal]

Doing a test embed of macgyver's suggested map (mainly testing to see if we can get this to work for a prediction thread later):

http://www.270towin.com/presidential_map_new/maps/3nRE3.png

[Androidpk]

Yes, but the point is that once, just once you should try forming an opinion on actual facts.

The point is your comprehension and critical thinking skills are severely lacking.

[ClydeR]

CNN declared Ken Bone the winner of the debate. He's the undecided audience member who asked about energy. Apparently, he's become an internet celebrity because of his red sweater. I thought the sweater looked fine so I don't understand the fuss.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/10/politics/debate-ken-bone-staring-man-trnd/index.html

[Warriorbird]

Sometimes America splits their pants in the car so they have to wear their red sweater and ask what we like about each other.

[Wrathbringer]

Sometimes America shits their pants in the car so they have to wear their red sweater and ask what we like about each other.

fixed

[Parkbandit]

Is that why all the independents in the audience were cheering? And where is the abuse in calling for a special prosecutor to prosecute a criminal? You certainly don't care that Obama has abused his office to keep cronies from going to prison.

Or that he used the IRS against his political rivals?

OMG SHIVERS!

[Parkbandit]

LOL, right? I love the comparison between scientific pollster-run polls and online readership polls.

it tells you so much about what's going on with the right these days. PK knows full well that those readership polls are meaningless, and that the CNN poll is actually reputable and believable. But it doesn't stop him from trying to convince everyone otherwise.

But the super creepy thing? He also knows that we know the difference.

Which makes you wonder- why even try that kind of argumentation when you know that everyone in the room- including you- realizes it's utter BS?

That basically sums up the hard core right these days.

Wait.. you believe that the CNN poll is scientific?

LOL. Stop.

[time4fun]

One of my favorite articles of the campaign season is from Jill Abramson- who has investigated the Clinton scandals thoroughly (and is not loved by Clinton for it) is this (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/28/hillary-clinton-honest-transparency-jill-abramson). A woman who has spent years reporting on every single Clinton scandal imaginable stated clearly that Hillary is "fundamentally honest and trustworthy".

Oh and PK dear, here's (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/clinton-won-the-debate-which-means-shes-likely-to-gain-in-the-polls/) a great article by Nate Silver demonstrating that the CNN post-debate polls actually correlate pretty well to post-debate bounces or losses. Maybe you should write Nate Silver and school him on statistics. Be sure to mansplain your very best.

[Parkbandit]

One of my favorite articles of the campaign season is from Jill Abramson- who has investigated the Clinton scandals thoroughly (and is not loved by Clinton for it) is this (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/28/hillary-clinton-honest-transparency-jill-abramson). A woman who has spent years reporting on every single Clinton scandal imaginable stated clearly that Hillary is "fundamentally honest and trustworthy".

Oh and PK dear, here's (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/clinton-won-the-debate-which-means-shes-likely-to-gain-in-the-polls/) a great article by Nate Silver demonstrating that the CNN post-debate polls actually correlate pretty well to post-debate bounces or losses. Maybe you should write Nate Silver and school him on statistics. Be sure to mansplain your very best.

Seriously.....

Stop.

[time4fun]

Crap, I brought a knife to this gun fight and am not equipped to provide facts.

Stop before I start hurling insults as a distraction.

Fixed.

[macgyver]

Seriously.....

Stop.

Trump is going to win, I just have one of those feelings. Will he get to be president? could be another gore/bush/supreme court thing.16' is going to be one of those game changer elections not because of the politics but just how the electoral process works. I see amendments to the vetting process and convention system in both parties.

[time4fun]

"U.S. stocks gain on widening Clinton lead" (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-markets-idUSKCN1290ZG?il=0)


U.S. stocks strode higher on Monday, lifted by Hillary Clinton's widening lead in the U.S. presidential campaign and by a surge in oil prices, while sterling was under pressure on concerns Britain will make a hard exit from the European Union.

Not even President yet and already fixing our economy!

#ImwithHer

[Tgo01]

The things that came out of his mouth last night- like threatening to abuse his office to jail a political rival- sent shivers down most peoples' spines.

I see you've been reading all of the far left "news" articles to get your talking points.

To anyone with even half a brain they knew what Trump was talking about; he was "threatening" to prosecute her for a crime she has already committed. He was saying that no one is above the law, not even Hillary.

To idiots who get their news from left wing pundits they think Trump was saying he was going to put her jail simply because she's a political rival.

Pull your head out of your ass for 2 minutes and learn to think for yourself.

[Androidpk]

One of my favorite articles of the campaign season is from Jill Abramson- who has investigated the Clinton scandals thoroughly (and is not loved by Clinton for it) is this (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/28/hillary-clinton-honest-transparency-jill-abramson). A woman who has spent years reporting on every single Clinton scandal imaginable stated clearly that Hillary is "fundamentally honest and trustworthy".

Oh and PK dear, here's (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/clinton-won-the-debate-which-means-shes-likely-to-gain-in-the-polls/) a great article by Nate Silver demonstrating that the CNN post-debate polls actually correlate pretty well to post-debate bounces or losses. Maybe you should write Nate Silver and school him on statistics. Be sure to mansplain your very best.

Are we talking about the same Nate Silver that claimed Trump had only a 5% chance of winning the GOP primary?

[Tgo01]

I dunno how you guys think that a Presidential candidate who says he hasn't spoken with his running mate and disagrees with him on a major foreign policy issue won a debate.

So they both have to agree on each and every single issue?

[Wrathbringer]

"U.S. stocks gain on widening Clinton lead" (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-markets-idUSKCN1290ZG?il=0)



Not even President yet and already fixing our economy!

#ImwithHer

:gags:

[time4fun]

I see you've been reading all of the far left "news" articles to get your talking points.

To anyone with even half a brain they knew what Trump was talking about; he was "threatening" to prosecute her for a crime she has already committed. He was saying that no one is above the law, not even Hillary.

To idiots who get their news from left wing pundits they think Trump was saying he was going to put her jail simply because she's a political rival.

Pull your head out of your ass for 2 minutes and learn to think for yourself.

Um.

There are places in the world where it's okay to imprison your political rivals. But you wouldn't want to live in any of them. Trump's threat was dictator language. Trying to breach the wall between President and a prosecutor's work is what made Nixon's Presidency so dark and shameful.

A man constantly talks about how much he respects dictators. The same man, last night, talks in glowing terms about how we should be working with Russia, Iran, and Syria. And then, that man threatens to imprison his political rival if elected.

I get that you're so far gone at this point that you don't understand how chilling all of this is. But, fortunately for the future of this Country, the rest of us get it. This is how dictators rise to power. They terrify the population, talk about security and borders, scapegoat minority groups, and then tell everyone that only the dictator himself can fix everything.

Before 2016 I had thought this Country could at least agree that these traits are disqualifying for the Presidency. It goes to show that no government is immune.

[Taernath]

To anyone with even half a brain they knew what Trump was talking about; he was "threatening" to prosecute her for a crime she has already committed. He was saying that no one is above the law, not even Hillary.

She's already been investigated several times costing around $30 million in taxpayer money. At some point you need to realize it's not going to work.

[Tgo01]

You don't seem to be able to divorce "I want Donald Trump to win" from "I think Donald Trump is going to win," Pk. There's a reason even Tgo01 can see the writing on the wall.

I actually don't think Trump is going to lose because he's such a terrible candidate. I think Clinton is going to win because too many Americans are willing to put the fact that Hillary is a criminal and lacks any sort of moral compass aside in order to ensure ANY Democrats wins over a Republican. I also think too many people want to appear to be the "good guys" by voting Democrat, because you know, Democrats really "care" about minorities and women.

In other words Hillary is going to win because too many voters are stupid, brainwashed, and paranoid. Just look at time4fun, not even 24 hours after the debate and she's already read all of the far left leaning "news" sites to get her "facts" from.

[Neveragain]

U.S. stocks strode higher on Monday, lifted by Hillary Clinton's promises of continued access to cheap foreign labor and by a surge in oil prices, while sterling was under pressure on concerns Britain will make a hard exit from the giant failure that is the European Union.

Fixed for honest reporting.

[Wrathbringer]

Um.

There are places in the world where it's okay to imprison your political rivals. But you wouldn't want to live in any of them. Trump's threat was dictator language. Trying to breach the wall between President and a prosecutor's work is what made Nixon's Presidency so dark and shameful.

A man constantly talks about how much he respects dictators. The same man, last night, talks in glowing terms about how we should be working with Russia, Iran, and Syria. And then, that man threatens to imprison his political rival if elected.

I get that you're so far gone at this point that you don't understand how chilling all of this is. But, fortunately for the future of this Country, the rest of us get it. This is how dictators rise to power. They terrify the population, talk about security and borders, scapegoat minority groups, and then tell everyone that only the dictator himself can fix everything.

Before 2016 I had thought this Country could at least agree that these traits are disqualifying for the Presidency. It goes to show that no government is immune.

lolwut? omg, you really are retarded.

[Tgo01]

"U.S. stocks gain on widening Clinton lead" (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-markets-idUSKCN1290ZG?il=0)



Not even President yet and already fixing our economy!

#ImwithHer

It's beyond adorable you think stocks climbing slightly higher is "fixing the economy." Or that the stock market itself is even directly tied to the economy.

Be sure to push the button with the D after it.

[Kembal]

So they both have to agree on each and every single issue?

It indicates significant dysfunction in the campaign that they haven't spoken to each other regarding the issue since Pence made those remarks at the VP debate. Everyone noted at that time that Pence was taking a wildly different position than Trump. They have 5 days to figure out something (because it was obviously going to come up at the second debate)...and they don't come up with anything.

[Kembal]

"U.S. stocks gain on widening Clinton lead" (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-markets-idUSKCN1290ZG?il=0)



Not even President yet and already fixing our economy!

#ImwithHer

Stock market != economy. Not even close. This is just stretching it.

[time4fun]

I actually don't think Trump is going to lose because he's such a terrible candidate. I think Clinton is going to win because too many Americans are willing to put the fact that Hillary is a criminal and lacks any sort of moral compass aside in order to ensure ANY Democrats wins over a Republican. I also think too many people want to appear to be the "good guys" by voting Democrat, because you know, Democrats really "care" about minorities and women.

In other words Hillary is going to win because too many voters are stupid, brainwashed, and paranoid. Just look at time4fun, not even 24 hours after the debate and she's already read all of the far left leaning "news" sites to get her "facts" from.

You mean CNN, Politico, New York Times, and Reuters? Yeah, so very left wing. I intentionally leave out liberal-leaning news outlets when I'm learning about new political developments. Can you say the same about right-leaning publications?

Gotta hand it to the conservative media- they've done a damn good job. They filled you all up with insane conspiracy theories (Obama is a Muslim from Africa! Obamacare will lead to death panels! Hillary Clinton laughs at 12 year-old rape victims!) and then tells you- "You can't believe anything you see in the lamestream media- it's all one big liberal front!".

i.e. Here are a bunch of lies, and by the way- all those fact checkers and reputable news outlets are telling you that we're wrong because of a giant liberal conspiracy!

You are hopeless. You think you have some great insight into the undercurrent of political reality because you're hearing these insane things that no one else is talking about. But actually, you're just a sheep who's been manipulated into believing in a reality that doesn't exist and tricked into doubting anything approach a reputable news source.

[time4fun]

Stock market != economy. Not even close. This is just stretching it.

She's also not actually fixing the stock market.

I think you missed the humor in my post ;)

[Tgo01]

There are places in the world where it's okay to imprison your political rivals. But you wouldn't want to live in any of them. Trump's threat was dictator language. Trying to breach the wall between President and a prosecutor's work is what made Nixon's Presidency so dark and shameful.

My God. All this time I thought your stupidity was all just an act, but now I see you really are just this fucking stupid. Your boyfriend must have to tie your shoes for you in the morning.

You really don't see the difference between a country like North Korea stamping out all political dissent, and Trump promising to prosecute Clinton for the crimes she has already committed?

[Tgo01]

She's already been investigated several times costing around $30 million in taxpayer money. At some point you need to realize it's not going to work.

Yeah but Trump is going to do it super duper better.


It indicates significant dysfunction in the campaign that they haven't spoken to each other regarding the issue since Pence made those remarks at the VP debate.

Why? Trump has one position, Pence has another. Are they supposed to take time discussing it until one changes their mind? Is Pence just supposed to adopt Trump's position because reasons?

[Warriorbird]

I'm curious how many times a presidential candidate has suggested they'll put their opponent in jail after after an FBI Director of their own party has declined to prosecute.

[time4fun]

My God. All this time I thought your stupidity was all just an act, but now I see you really are just this fucking stupid. Your boyfriend must have to tie your shoes for you in the morning.

You really don't see the difference between a country like North Korea stamping out all political dissent, and Trump promising to prosecute Clinton for the crimes she has already committed?

I think you mean.."opening back up an investigation of a US citizen and political rival- not because there's new evidence that warrants it- but because the President personally has decided he wants that person in jail- even though the FBI, CIA, DoS, and DoJ all determined that was nothing worth indicting over".

Do you have no concept of the implications of that situation?

What Trump described is an illegal abuse of power. It would be bad enough for Trump to tell any US citizen that they will be arrested simply because he has decided they should be (which is NOT how the separation of powers works. The Judicial branch, and the Judicial branch alone, has the authority to make those determinations), but to say it to a political rival AFTER it was already determined that prosecution was improper is a deeply disturbing, and incredibly dangerous perversion of our system of Government. The separation of powers was written to prevent dangerous men like Trump from being able to do the kinds of things he's suggesting.

I hate to break it to you Tgo, but most of the time when you fly into a rage about how someone else is too stupid to understand- it's actually you who isn't understanding.

[Tgo01]

You mean CNN, Politico, New York Times, and Reuters?

Reuters ran a story stating it was "so scary" that Trump was threatening a "political rival" with jail time because she dared oppose him?

NYT I can totally see running that story. Politico too, less so CNN, unless it was an opinion article then I can totally see it.

I'd be shocked if Reuters ran such a story so I'd love to see your link on that.

Because the only "news" sites I saw running such an article were far far FAR left leaning sites such as Vox (http://www.vox.com/2016/10/9/13222302/donald-trump-jail-hillary-clinton-second-debate).

I mean shit, you almost quoted them verbatim.

Your post: "threatening to abuse his office to jail a political rival"

What Vox said: "threatening to jail one’s political opponents"

[time4fun]

I'm curious how many times a presidential candidate has suggested they'll put their opponent in jail after after an FBI Director of their own party has declined to prosecute.

It has never happened. Partially because it can't happen, and partially because it is one of the most terrifying things a President can say.

Remember what happened when Nixon tried to force the DoJ to fire special prosecutor Archibald Cox because Cox issued a subpoena for some of Nixon's documents during the Watergate investigation? The AG resigned instead of doing it because it was such a corruption of the process. Then, when Nixon tried to force the Deputy AG to do it, he resigned too. He finally got Bork to do it, but the Courts intervened and pointed out how incredibly illegal it was. It ruined Nixon's career, and it destroyed the Republican party for some time afterwards.

It was a really shameful time in the American Presidency, and it doesn't begin to compare to what Trump just suggested he'd do.

[Tgo01]

I think you mean.."opening back up an investigation of a US citizen and political rival- not because there's new evidence that warrants it- but because the President personally has decided he wants that person in jail- even though the FBI, CIA, DoS, and DoJ all determined that was nothing worth indicting over".

Okay, just for shits and giggles. No really, work with me here for just one minute. Just for shits and giggles let's say there is this giant conspiracy to not prosecute Hillary, even though she did break the law. It doesn't even have to be a conspiracy seeing as the current fucking president who basically controls all of these groups has come right out and thrown his support behind Hillary. So let's say she skirted the law because the current powers that be wanted to let her skirt the law.

So you would be okay if this person continues to skirt the law because the system is corrupt? Fuck, I'd rather the next president put people in power who will look over the evidence with a fresh perspective. This isn't a case of someone being found innocent in a court of law but Trump wants to jail her anyways. This is a case of someone being so powerful and well connected that it didn't even reach a trial, and MANY people feel this way. You love your polls, right? How many people felt if they had done what Hillary did that they would have received some sort of punishment? I bet it's higher than 10%.


What Trump described is an illegal abuse of power.

Here is where time4fun once again engages in fear mongering by stating what an asshole Trump is for wanting to uphold the law. It really is amazing.

[Kembal]

Why? Trump has one position, Pence has another. Are they supposed to take time discussing it until one changes their mind? Is Pence just supposed to adopt Trump's position because reasons?

Generally, the latter. The top two offices of the country taking different positions on a major foreign policy issue would mean chaos.

[Tgo01]

It has never happened. Partially because it can't happen, and partially because it is one of the most terrifying things a President can say.

Oh really?

Here is what Obama had to say when someone asked him about prosecuting Bush:


“What I would want to do is to have my Justice Department and my attorney general immediately review the information that’s already there and to find out are there inquiries that need to be pursued. I can’t prejudge that because we don’t have access to all the material right now. … You’re also right that I would not want my first term consumed by what was perceived on the part of Republicans as a partisan witch hunt because I think we’ve got too many problems to solve.

“So this is an area where I would want to exercise judgment - I would want to find out directly from my attorney general … are there possibilities of genuine crimes as opposed to really bad policies. And I think it’s important - one of the things we’ve got to figure out in our political culture generally is distinguishing between really dumb policies and policies that rise to the level of criminal activity. You know, I often get questions about impeachment at town hall meetings and I’ve said that is not something I think would be fruitful to pursue because I think that impeachment is something that should be reserved for exceptional circumstances. Now, if I found out that there were high officials who knowingly, consciously broke existing laws, engaged in cover-ups of those crimes with knowledge [aforethought], then I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody is above the law.”

Surely you were so terrified at the prospect of a presidential candidate jailing his political opponents that you refused to vote him. TWICE! Right? Right?

[time4fun]

Okay, just for shits and giggles. No really, work with me here for just one minute. Just for shits and giggles let's say there is this giant conspiracy to not prosecute Hillary, even though she did break the law. It doesn't even have to be a conspiracy seeing as the current fucking president who basically controls all of these groups has come right out and thrown his support behind Hillary. So let's say she skirted the law because the current powers that be wanted to let her skirt the law.

So you would be okay if this person continues to skirt the law because the system is corrupt? Fuck, I'd rather the next president put people in power who will look over the evidence with a fresh perspective. This isn't a case of someone being found innocent in a court of law but Trump wants to jail her anyways. This is a case of someone being so powerful and well connected that it didn't even reach a trial, and MANY people feel this way. You love your polls, right? How many people felt if they had done what Hillary did that they would have received some sort of punishment? I bet it's higher than 10%.



Here is where time4fun once again engages in fear mongering by stating what an asshole Trump is for wanting to uphold the law. It really is amazing.

Sure Tgo- the President- on his or her whim- should continue to direct the Executive branch to investigate political rivals constantly, over and over in hopes that they finally find something, and then the President should pressure the DoJ to indict. I assume this should also be done on repeat until they finally find something that sticks.

The problem with your scenario, is that there is no evidence that there is a conspiracy to cover up Clinton- the recommendation not to indict came from a Republican head of the FBI with a history of standing up to the Administration and refusing to back down when he feels they want him to do something illegal. On the contrary- Clinton has been subjected to more investigations by the GOP-controlled House than any candidate in recent history. You may recognize what they've been doing as the exact political corruption I mentioned earlier- using their Legislative authority to continually investigate a US citizen who happens to be a political rival over and over again until they finally find something wrong. (which they never did, btw. Their own investigations have always come up empty)

People believed that she broke the law because they have been told repeatedly by the Right (including Trump) that she's a criminal- not because the Executive Branch or the Judicial branch has ever found anything approaching criminal activity. What you are suggesting is that a President should be able to repeatedly tell the country someone is a criminal, and that they should be able to use the fact that people believe them as justification for abusing the Executive branch in a way to deny that person their legal protections as a citizen solely because that person is a political rival.

Fortunately, we have a separation of powers that keeps Legislators and the Executive branch from being able to decide themselves that someone is a criminal simply for the political benefit it provides them. Only the Judiciary can do that. But the one situation where the separation of powers gets tricky is the Department of Justice. The Executive branch has the ability to determine who does and does not end up indicted, and the President is the boss of the DoJ. It is crucial for the integrity of our political and justice systems that the President stay the fuck out of the recommendations made by the DoJ- which is what every President but Nixon has been wise enough to do. It's also why the Legislative Branch is involved in confirming appointees- to ensure that the Executive branch isn't just stacking everything to get what they want. It's a delicate balance that must be maintained and not abused.

Trump proved to us last night that he doesn't have that wisdom. He is dangerous to our Democracy.

[Tgo01]

Sure Tgo- the President- on his or her whim- should continue to direct the Executive branch to investigate political rivals constantly, over and over in hopes that they finally find something

When your argument falls apart just simply make up what the other person said!

And the time4fun fear mongering train continues. FULL SPEED AHEAD!

[time4fun]

Oh really?

Here is what Obama had to say when someone asked him about prosecuting Bush:



Surely you were so terrified at the prospect of a presidential candidate jailing his political opponents that you refused to vote him. TWICE! Right? Right?

1) Bush was not a political rival. Obama never ran against Bush, nor could he.

2) Obama's language here was precise and important, and it never once said that he would determine or enact anything- "I would ask my AG whether there are possibilities of crimes. IF I found out someone knowingly broke the law... no one is above the law"

You'll notice that he never once said he would make the determination of innocence or guilt himself. He did what was proper- he would rely on the judgement of the AG as to whether or not there was a possibility of a crime (he's not even letting the AG determine if a crime was actually committed- which is exactly correct). And he never once tried to pre-determine punishment or guilt for someone- only the Judiciary can make those calls. He was a Constitutional Law Scholar, he has a deep respect for the separation of powers, and nothing he said stepped over those lines.

What Trump did was determine on his own that someone WAS, in fact, guilty, and then he decided on his own what the punishment should be. And the person in question was an active political rival.

There are worlds of differences here. All you did was highlight how grossly inappropriate and dangerous Trump's threats were last night.

[Geijon Khyree]

What are the top 10 breitbart reasons Trump will lose? I'm sure #1 is minority voters and then 2-10 is some slant of media bias and fools who dont know anything.

Most of us are taught when we fail its our fault. He just seems to declare bankruptcy and say hes smart or...Daesh did it.

You got your top 10 ready?

[Parkbandit]

I'm a dumb cunt

Yes, we know.

[Taernath]

Yeah but Trump is going to do it super duper better.

Like WB was maybe implying, Comey was their best chance. That's why conservatives had a hard-on for the investigation, because if was going to happen, it would happen under him. But it didn't. And the other investigations didn't either. As much as these committees like to posture and think up clever sound bites they don't have anything left to pursue.

[Tgo01]

1) Bush was not a political rival.

LOL! And there you have it ladies and gentleman, time4fun engaging in some serious grasping at straws.

So threatening to prosecute the person you're running against for crimes they have committed is scary and terrifying, but threatening to prosecute the person you are seeking to replace isn't scary and terrifying.

You are a real piece of work, you know that?


2) Obama's language here was precise and important, and it never once said that he would determine or enact anything- "I would ask my AG whether there are possibilities of crimes. IF I found out someone knowingly broke the law... no one is above the law"

Wait wait...isn't this basically what Trump said? He would appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary? Did Trump state HE would determine Hillary's guilt and personally send her to jail? Do you wear some sort of special hearing aids that lets you hear what you want to hear?


You'll notice that he never once said he would make the determination of innocence or guilt himself. He did what was proper- he would rely on the judgement of the AG as to whether or not there was a possibility of a crime (he's not even letting the AG determine if a crime was actually committed- which is exactly correct).

Keep grasping at dem straws, time4fun. Grasp. GRASP!

https://media4.giphy.com/media/Ve9pOjJRxkW2c/200_s.gif

https://f4.bcbits.com/img/a2890796349_2.jpg

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00233/2010040257590301_233268e.jpg

[crb]

I think you mean.."opening back up an investigation of a US citizen and political rival- not because there's new evidence that warrants it- but because the President personally has decided he wants that person in jail- even though the FBI, CIA, DoS, and DoJ all determined that was nothing worth indicting over".

Do you have no concept of the implications of that situation?

What Trump described is an illegal abuse of power. It would be bad enough for Trump to tell any US citizen that they will be arrested simply because he has decided they should be (which is NOT how the separation of powers works. The Judicial branch, and the Judicial branch alone, has the authority to make those determinations), but to say it to a political rival AFTER it was already determined that prosecution was improper is a deeply disturbing, and incredibly dangerous perversion of our system of Government. The separation of powers was written to prevent dangerous men like Trump from being able to do the kinds of things he's suggesting.

I hate to break it to you Tgo, but most of the time when you fly into a rage about how someone else is too stupid to understand- it's actually you who isn't understanding.

No one ever determined prosecution was improper. They determined it was a loser of a case because of her status.

The FBI director said basically TL:DR "She is a guilty, but no one is going to get a verdict on her, so, fuck it."

Above the law Achievement Unlocked!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a1/Abovethelaw.jpg/220px-Abovethelaw.jpg

[Parkbandit]

I'm curious how many times a presidential candidate has suggested they'll put their opponent in jail after after an FBI Director of their own party has declined to prosecute.

I'm curious how many times a presidential candidate has been under multiple FBI investigations... and that candidate is the same political party as the current President.

[Parkbandit]

Like WB was maybe implying, Comey was their best chance. That's why conservatives had a hard-on for the investigation, because if was going to happen, it would happen under him. But it didn't. And the other investigations didn't either. As much as these committees like to posture and think up clever sound bites they don't have anything left to pursue.

I honestly don't blame Comey for not prosecuting Hillary. He didn't want to be the deciding factor in who became the next President and tried his best to get out of a bad situation.

If she was Joe E. Citizen, she would already be in jail. The political class protects itself though.

[Warriorbird]

I'm curious how many times a presidential candidate has been under multiple FBI investigations... and that candidate is the same political party as the current President.

There's actually several examples on record. All Democrats too.

[Parkbandit]

There's actually several examples on record. All Democrats too.

Any recent examples?

[Androidpk]

Comey had his hands tied by Obama and Lynch. Anyone with half a brain could see the investigation was a sham and they were never going to be allowed to prosecute.

[Taernath]

Comey had his hands tied by Obama and Lynch. Anyone with half a brain could see the investigation was a sham and they were never going to be allowed to prosecute.


I still stand by my crazy prediction that we'll be seeing something major by the end of this week in regards to an indictment. Too many people are underestimating Director Comey, just like they underestimated Donald Trump, because at the end of the day the FBI is taking this very, very, very seriously (to borrow Judge Emmet G. Sullivan, a Bill Clinton appointee btw). I had a class with the Washington Center in 2010 and we had a chance to tour the FBI HQ and have a briefing with special agent Tracy Reinhold, who at the time was the Assistant Director for the Directorate of Intelligence, and this just the sort of stuff he was talking to us about.

lol, you were rabidly following the investigation in the email thread.

Here's another:


All the untouchables are untouchable, until they aren't. I could rattle off a list of names. Obama has a clear cut path to securing his legacy now and I don't think he's going to go the route Hillary has in mind. But who knows, we'll found out soon enough.

If you had asked me last year I would have agreed with you but just too many things have come to light.

The sitting of a grand jury
Subpoenas into the Clinton Foundation
Subpoenas into Bryan Pagliano and the resulting immunity agreement (to testify in front of the grand jury).
Extraditing a Romanian prisoner for 18 months and then cutting a sweetheart deal with him (in exchange for evidence and testimony in front of the grand jury).
New FBI criminal investigations against some of Hillary's top donors with ties to the Clinton Foundation (VA governor..)
And now Pagliano pleading the 5th instead of being deposed liked ordered to by Judge Sullivan in regards to the civil FOIA matters.

If you're thinking about putting money on Hillary not being indicted in some form I'd really reconsider :)

[Androidpk]

lol, you were rabidly following the investigation in the email thread.

Yes, I know, and now that we have a number of the investigation reports and 302s it's easy to see the whole thing was rigged from the beginning.

[Androidpk]

Oh boy, you know it's pretty bad when your own campaign manager is calling you a habitual liar.. :lol:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cuaquy8UsAEPf4M.jpg

[Wrathbringer]

Comey had his hands tied by Obama and Lynch. Anyone with half a brain could see the investigation was a sham and they were never going to be allowed to prosecute.

Did you really just post this? LOL

[Androidpk]

It's no wonder the liberals are desperate to ignore the Podesta emails. Here's one of Hillary acknowledging Qatar and Saudi Arabia supporting ISIL and other terrorist groups, yet she's perfectly okay with accepting $50 million from them and helping to facilitate massive weapons deals.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CubLYY3W8AIte7N.jpg

[Taernath]

Yes, I know, and now that we have a number of the investigation reports and 302s it's easy to see the whole thing was rigged from the beginning.

The old "it was rigged all along!" cry. I'm sure we'll be hearing more of that following the election.

[Androidpk]

Okay this is pretty funny


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdUEMZvzVjM

[Soulance]

Doing a test embed of macgyver's suggested map (mainly testing to see if we can get this to work for a prediction thread later):

http://www.270towin.com/presidential_map_new/maps/3nRE3.png
Illinois is stupid though we finally threw out the morons who used to run this state and finally have someone who's a...oh wait, a businessman and not a politician! Because Illinois has had Democrats giving away crap to get votes for a long time and selling out for even longer and look how bankrupt this state is. Glad we could share with the rest of the nation so you can all suffer with us.

[Soulance]

Uh, once you hit 250k a year, you ARE super rich.

And let's be clear here- my mother raised me and my sister on 25k a year without even a middle school education, and as an adult my household makes twice the $250k threshold you're mocking. The fact that I'm well off now does not prevent me from empathizing and sympathizing with lower and middle class life. On the contrary- my current life lets me look back on my old life with new eyes, and I understand just how bad it was in a way that I couldn't at the time because I had never even seen financial stability in real life. It's made me even more ardently progressive and passionate about income equality. (Because some of us don't believe in kicking the ladder out from under us when we're fortunate enough to get to climb up)

Donald Trump, on the other hand, has never known anything but abject wealth. And you don't actually need to have been poor to sympathize (though certainly you would need to in order to empathize), but Trump has more than proven that he is wholly incapable of sympathy or empathy.


So I'm not sure what point you think you're making here, but it's failing on all fronts.
Again, eh. That's your opinion though many would argue that 250k isn't really that "rich" especially when the government steals it's take.

I will say that is impressive about your mom and definite kudos to her - though $25k then was a little different than $25k nowadays unless you grew up in the last 20 years or so. Still, either way, she at least taught you to be a fighter.

Let me explain the Democrat Entitlenomics as I see it. Since you are so "rich" then let's do this. I'm going to go out and buy a car. Then, I'll get a new cellphone, a new 4k TVs and Blu-ray players to match along with a surround system, and I also need a popcorn machine cause who can watch movies with no popcorn? Then I'm going to take monthly trips to...wherever.

I'll wrack up the bills and deb so there's little chance I'll ever be able to make any ground cause intrest alone will kill that. Plus, I don't receive any tax cuts so that's less money I have to pay down my debt and things I created. Oh, and I'm going to do all of this every year...and probably more stuff cause you promised me more free crap.

SO, then I'll send the bill to you because you're rich and I'm not. You have to pay for my stupidity and hemorrhaging debt. And not just this year, but every year after as it just gets worse and worse because you a aren't fixing the REAL problem, just paying off my crap.

There you go, Demonomics 101.

[Soulance]

Uh, once you hit 250k a year, you ARE super rich.

And let's be clear here- my mother raised me and my sister on 25k a year without even a middle school education, and as an adult my household makes twice the $250k threshold you're mocking. The fact that I'm well off now does not prevent me from empathizing and sympathizing with lower and middle class life. On the contrary- my current life lets me look back on my old life with new eyes, and I understand just how bad it was in a way that I couldn't at the time because I had never even seen financial stability in real life. It's made me even more ardently progressive and passionate about income equality.
And I'm not sure where you picked up mockery, it was just a statement.

Also, so you started in that kind of household, but did it keep you down? Obviously not. You got out of it and built yourself up - unless married someone rich then stull, way to go!

Tell me, do you now take 250k a year and give it all to the poor since being over 250k is super rich. You don't need the extra. If you do give it away, do you claim it on your taxes and write it off? If so, aren't you skipping out on your duty to pay for those poor uneducated people?

[Parkbandit]

And I'm not sure where you picked up mockery, it was just a statement.

Also, so you started in that kind of household, but did it keep you down? Obviously not. You got out of it and built yourself up - unless married someone rich then stull, way to go!

That's only because she's a white male. Minorities cannot possibly do this.


Tell me, do you now take 250k a year and give it all to the poor since being over 250k is super rich. You don't need the extra. If you do give it away, do you claim itbon your taxes and write it off? If so, aren't you skipping out on your duty to pay for those poor uneducated people?

Oh yes she does! She also pays the IRS double what she actually owes.. because that's the right thing to do...........................

[Candor]

Once you hit 250K/year you are super rich? Really?

I wonder what term time4fun would assign to someone with a 7 figure income. Perhaps "criminal"?

[Thondalar]

You think Gallup polls are the gold standard yet the CEO himself said their polling during the 2012 election was way off mark, and no, that CNN poll is not actually reputable and believable.

According to the ONLY poll that correctly predicted Obama's 2012 win percentage, Trump currently leads Hillary 45.8 to 42.7.

[time4fun]

According to the ONLY poll that correctly predicted Obama's 2012 win percentage, Trump currently leads Hillary 45.8 to 42.7.

I'm sorry- which poll is this?

[Androidpk]

According to the ONLY poll that correctly predicted Obama's 2012 win percentage, Trump currently leads Hillary 45.8 to 42.7.

Which poll is that? They MUST be wrong, or they're biased, or they've been reading too much Fox News, or they're part of the VRWC!

[Warriorbird]

None of the above. Their content is focused on clickbait these days. They want to take up the mantle of Gawker. They know "edgy" polls will draw certain crowds. They specialized in picking outliers during the primaries.

The sad bit is they used to be a great bunch of newspapers but this sells more.

[Dendum]

Its the usc la times poll...

[Warriorbird]

Owned by:

http://www.tronc.com/

[Latrinsorm]

Its the usc la times poll...Did they do a Presidential poll in 2012, though? I can't seem to find it.

[Latrinsorm]

Owned by:

http://www.tronc.com/Kris Straub has a hilarious take (http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2016/06/21/move-over-tronc/) on tronc. And stuff in general, but tronc is topical.

[Warriorbird]

Kris Straub has a hilarious take (http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2016/06/21/move-over-tronc/) on tronc. And stuff in general, but tronc is topical.

That was amazing. These folks are staggeringly insane and it really seemed close to the introductory video I remember. They pulled it of course.

This has some clips from that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKihnDQ3ipE

[Neveragain]

http://whotv.com/2016/10/10/early-voting-numbers-in-iowa-down-compared-to-2012-election/

This is a pretty good indicator that Trump will win Iowa.

[Methais]

Okay this is pretty funny


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdUEMZvzVjM

This is incredible.


http://whotv.com/2016/10/10/early-voting-numbers-in-iowa-down-compared-to-2012-election/

This is a pretty good indicator that Trump will win Iowa.

Other than Seth Rollins, why is Iowa so important anyway? Isn't it just a giant corn field with a few hicks scattered about?

[macgyver]

This is incredible.



Other than Seth Rollins, why is Iowa so important anyway? Isn't it just a giant corn field with a few hicks scattered about?

It's a barometer for which way other swing states will go and to be brutally honest the race is so tight that Trump needs every state he can get. NC, Iowa, Ohio, Florida, Nevada, Pennsylvania, and Colorado are all mandatory for him to pull this off.

And to throw my two cents in, the electoral state system is stupid. It's always the same handful of states that effectively decides who becomes President. I wish they would just go by straight up popular vote regardless of where you live; it put's so much more importance to an individual vote.

[Whirlin]

It's a barometer for which way other swing states will go and to be brutally honest the race is so tight that Trump needs every state he can get. NC, Iowa, Ohio, Florida, Nevada, Pennsylvania, and Colorado are all mandatory for him to pull this off.

And to throw my two cents in, the electoral state system is stupid. It's always the same handful of states that effectively decides who becomes President. I wish they would just go by straight up popular vote regardless of where you live; it put's so much more importance to an individual vote.
Yeah, but that has it's own concerns... you'd end up pandering to the major cities and largely populated areas, and the rural areas would go completely ignored.

[Neveragain]

This is incredible.



Other than Seth Rollins, why is Iowa so important anyway? Isn't it just a giant corn field with a few hicks scattered about?

Most likely because it's the nation's largest producer of bacon

[Methais]

Yeah, but that has it's own concerns... you'd end up pandering to the major cities and largely populated areas, and the rural areas would go completely ignored.

Doesn't this already happen in places like California? I always hear that most of northern california leans more to the right, but southern California is where most of the actual voters are.


Most likely because it's the nation's largest producer of bacon

Everything makes sense now.

[Wrathbringer]

Doesn't this already happen in places like California? I always hear that most of northern california leans more to the right, but southern California is where most of the actual voters are.

I hear there's a lot of gay people in California.

[Whirlin]

Doesn't this already happen in places like California? I always hear that most of northern california leans more to the right, but southern California is where most of the actual voters are.

I would assume so... if a State is worth X points, and those X points are allocated by popular vote within the state, why wouldn't a candidate save the time/energy and only go for the places of highest population? Otherwise if electoral points were allocated by county or district lines, you'd just end up promoting gerrymandering even more.

There's actually a great video from CPG Grey about first-past-the-post voting, and a subsequent related video on alternative forms of voting that could alleviate the two party system... but of course, such a dichotomy shift is pretty much unreasonable in the current political environment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

[time4fun]

I would assume so... if a State is worth X points, and those X points are allocated by popular vote within the state, why wouldn't a candidate save the time/energy and only go for the places of highest population? Otherwise if electoral points were allocated by county or district lines, you'd just end up promoting gerrymandering even more.

There's actually a great video from CPG Grey about first-past-the-post voting, and a subsequent related video on alternative forms of voting that could alleviate the two party system... but of course, such a dichotomy shift is pretty much unreasonable in the current political environment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

It's actually important because of the GOP's electoral map. Dems have a big electoral map advantage and don't need Iowa by any stretch, ever. But these days, the GOP has only a few VERY narrow paths to the White House, and it's really tough for them to do it without Iowa.

Also, historically, Iowa has been a good bellwether for the rest of the country. That changed with Trump, who altered two fundamental demographics: non-college educated whites (who are leaving the Democratic party for the GOP this cycle and who are a big demographic in Iowa) and college educated whites (who are leaving the GOP for the Democratic party and who are less of the Iowa demographic than some of its neighboring states).

[Archigeek]

It's actually important because of the GOP's electoral map. Dems have a big electoral map advantage and don't need Iowa by any stretch, ever. But these days, the GOP has only a few VERY narrow paths to the White House, and it's really tough for them to do it without Iowa.

Also, historically, Iowa has been a good bellwether for the rest of the country. That changed with Trump, who altered two fundamental demographics: non-college educated whites (who are leaving the Democratic party for the GOP this cycle and who are a big demographic in Iowa) and college educated whites (who are leaving the GOP for the Democratic party and who are less of the Iowa demographic than some of its neighboring states).

Iowa is a pretty well educated state. I would not say that college educated whites are less of a demographic in Iowa than in neighboring states. I'm also not sure it's a good bellwether for the rest of the country either, though its spot in the primaries do put it in that position.

[time4fun]

Iowa is a pretty well educated state. I would not say that college educated whites are less of a demographic in Iowa than in neighboring states. I'm also not sure it's a good bellwether for the rest of the country either, though its spot in the primaries do put it in that position.

Iowa has a lower percentage of college educated whites vs non-college educated whites than other swing states like PA, CO, NC, and VA.

It's actually similar to Ohio in that regard. And that's one of the main reasons why Trump is doing better in Iowa and Ohio and is ranging from struggling to being utterly destroyed in PA, CO, NC, and VA. (The other being that Iowa and Ohio are just a hell of a lot whiter in general than those other states).

So the argument here is not that Iowans are all uneducated white voters, it's that their electorate has a higher proportion of non college educated white voters than the nearby states that Clinton (and Democrats in general) is carrying right now.

For reference- if we rank the states by the % of people with college degrees, we get:

PA: 26th (26.4%)
CO: 3rd (35.9%)
NC: 25th (26.5%)
VA: 6th (34%)

Iowa: 34th (25%)
Ohio: 38th (24.1%)

Notice that Iowa and Ohio are ranked the lowest, and they're also the ones Trump is doing best in and which Clinton is struggling.

[Geijon Khyree]

What specific policies and plans tbat Trump has presented are appealing to Republicans outside of general party platform. He says things but not much of substance. If he had actual plans he might not get overshadowed by the human errors and bluster.

It mostly seems like I hate America so lets blow it up or he isnt establisment, he isnt Hillary take on people reason for voting.

[Ashliana]

Iowa: 34th (25%)
Ohio: 38th (24.1%)

Notice that Iowa and Ohio are ranked the lowest, and they're also the ones Trump is doing best in and which Clinton is struggling.

There's definitely a relationship between the general support for Trump and the level of educational attainment, but I don't think your stance here is accurate. Nate Silver, at least, currently has both states as going to Clinton. Obama carried both states, both times.

The hardest-right states are Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Oklahoma, Alabama, etc.


Educational attainment (undergraduate degrees):
http://proximityone.com/cv_dr_graphics/states20132.jpg

538's predictions based on current polling:

http://i.imgur.com/PNg9vQD.png

[Ashliana]

Also, the disparity between Virginia and West Virginia is hilarious. What makes it funnier, is that if you cut off 90% of Virginia that isn't around Washington DC it would probably change from 36.1% to about 60-80%. The stats here wildly skew the rest of the state, which is (by geographical representation) extremely conservative, but most of the population lives around here.

If only the rest of the state would break off and form "South Virginia," they could have the (penniless) conservative paradise their representatives so clearly want.

[time4fun]

What specific policies and plans tbat Trump has presented are appealing to Republicans outside of general party platform. He says things but not much of substance. If he had actual plans he might not get overshadowed by the human errors and bluster.

It mostly seems like I hate America so lets blow it up or he isnt establisment, he isnt Hillary take on people reason for voting.

Trump speaks to both the economic reality that non-college educated white voters are getting left behind in many ways (non-college educated white people in the US are the only group whose life expectancy is shrinking right now) and also to the white (often male) entitlement that is being threatened as white and male privileges are being eroded.

He's speaking to real pain and offering up scapegoats that normalize the entitlement by shoring up the privilege. ("Political Correctness is ruining our country!" "We'll make America great again by kicking out latinos and muslims, etc etc)

The pain they're feeling is a result of local conservative political movements- eroding the unions that used to protect their jobs, cutting funding for education and health access, criminalizing drug use instead of funding treatment centers, etc) and of national liberal indifference (and increasingly Democratic embrace of big business).

[Archigeek]

What Ashliana said about VA. Also, none of the states you mentioned are Iowa's neighbors. If you look at neighboring states, they all have similar education levels, except Minnesota which is much higher. On the surface this supports your argument that educated voters support Clinton, but Minnesota is also pretty economically strong, and strong economies afford opportunities to better yourself, and also lead to the import of educated people.

I don't really think it's helpful or accurate to paint Trump voters as a bunch of uneducated hicks. The real clear message in this election is dissatisfaction with the status quo, in both parties. Failure to recognize this and act on it, by whomever wins, will be at the peril of the 2 party system.

[Neveragain]

I find it interesting Iowa is suddenly considered uneducated by the left. Normally they vote Democrat, gave Obama the Whitehouse, first in the nation to legalize gay marriage....now. They are just a bunch of unnecessary dumbfucks...this is why you are losing Iowa.

[time4fun]

I find it interesting Iowa is suddenly considered uneducated by the left. Normally they vote Democrat, gave Obama the Whitehouse, first in the nation to legalize gay marriage....now. They are just a bunch of unnecessary dumbfucks...this is why you are losing Iowa.

It's like you blacked out the last year and just woke up now. Iowa DOES have a lower percentage of college educated voters than other swing states- like 4 posts up I literally just pointed out that it's ranked 34th in the nation. You don't get to pretend that fact is an insult and then use that to pretend it's not actually a fact.

Non-college educated white voters are leaving the Democratic party for the GOP- since 2008 there's been like a 7-9 point shift. You'd know that if you had read anything you're actually replying to, as it was just pointed out.


And Archi- you can be as uncomfortable with the fact that Trump's largest base of support comes from non-college educated white supporters (none of whom were referred to as hicks by anyone in this thread) as you want, but it doesn't mean it's not true. And it's true precisely because whether or not you have a college degree has a HUGE impact on whether or not you're satisfied with the status quo. Go look at some of the "Right Direction/Wrong Direction" gallup polls- people without college degrees are the least likely to say we're moving in the right direction, and people with graduate degrees are the most (with college degree only being in the middle)

Trump wins non-college educated white voters by like 20 points on average in the national polling. And Clinton leads with college educated white voters by like 15ish points (depending on the poll). Gender and college attainment are the two most predictive factors in voting preferences this election cycle among white voters.

[Androidpk]

It isn't just non-college educated white voters leaving the Dem party..

[Candor]

Trump's latest rant at Paul Ryan and the Republican party is probably the last straw that pushes me over to Clinton. I have a large number of disagreements with Clinton on what government should and should not do, but I am starting to think she is the best candidate. Given her competition that's not saying much though. Trump isn't viable, and Gary Johnson is not as informed on some subjects as he should be to be President.

For me to consider voting for a Democratic candidate as liberal as Clinton is something that is almost unthinkable, but here we are.

[Wrathbringer]

Trump's latest rant at Paul Ryan and the Republican party is probably the last straw that pushes me over to Clinton. I have a large number of disagreements with Clinton on what government should and should not do, but I am starting to think she is the best candidate. Given her competition that's not saying much though. Trump isn't viable, and Gary Johnson is not as informed on some subjects as he should be to be President.

For me to consider voting for a Democratic candidate as liberal as Clinton is something that is almost unthinkable, but here we are.

lol deeeeeeeeeeeerp

[time4fun]

Trump's latest rant at Paul Ryan and the Republican party is probably the last straw that pushes me over to Clinton. I have a large number of disagreements with Clinton on what government should and should not do, but I am starting to think she is the best candidate. Given her competition that's not saying much though. Trump isn't viable, and Gary Johnson is not as informed on some subjects as he should be to be President.

For me to consider voting for a Democratic candidate as liberal as Clinton is something that is almost unthinkable, but here we are.

Better to have a tax plan you're not in love with than a sociopath with the ability to order the world's largest military to do his bidding.

A Trump Presidency could very well destroy this country, and let's be blunt- it would be guaranteed to destroy the republican party for the next 20 years.

[Androidpk]

Trump's latest rant at Paul Ryan and the Republican party is probably the last straw that pushes me over to Clinton. I have a large number of disagreements with Clinton on what government should and should not do, but I am starting to think she is the best candidate. Given her competition that's not saying much though. Trump isn't viable, and Gary Johnson is not as informed on some subjects as he should be to be President.

For me to consider voting for a Democratic candidate as liberal as Clinton is something that is almost unthinkable, but here we are.

Don't do it man.

[Androidpk]

Better to have a tax plan you're not in love with than a sociopath with the ability to order the world's largest military to do his bidding.

Did you miss the part in the last debate where Hillary said she's still in favor of a no-fly zone in Syria??

[time4fun]

It isn't just non-college educated white voters leaving the Dem party..

From a demographics perspective, at this point, yes it actually is. (And mostly men)

Every other demographic is moving to the Democrats and towards Clinton specifically right now. (which really means away from the GOP)

[time4fun]

Did you miss the part in the last debate where Hillary said she's still in favor of a no-fly zone in Syria??

Did you miss the point where he threatened to abuse the Executive Branch to jail a political rival, suggested we be more like Russia/Syria/Iran, and then barely even knew where Syria was?

[Androidpk]

Did you miss the point where he threatened to abuse the Executive Branch to jail a political rival, suggested we be more like Russia/Syria/Iran, and then barely even knew where Syria was?

Did you miss the part where he said he would call for a special prosecutor? At not point did he ever say he would jail Hillary without due process, so try again. No abuse of the Executive Branch there. He also never said we should be like Russia, Syria and Iran. He said we should work with them to defeat ISIS, which we should. Also, way to deflect on my question. I take it you have no problems risking a confrontation with a nuclear superpower just to get a D in the WH.

[Kembal]

Did you miss the part where he said he would call for a special prosecutor? At not point did he ever say he would jail Hillary without due process, so try again. No abuse of the Executive Branch there. He also never said we should be like Russia, Syria and Iran. He said we should work with them to defeat ISIS, which we should. Also, way to deflect on my question. I take it you have no problems risking a confrontation with a nuclear superpower just to get a D in the WH.

For a guy who says he doesn't want Trump in the WH, you sure have no problem defending him or spinning for him.

I mean, even the cognitive dissonance of "we should work with Iran to defeat ISIS" and "the nuclear deal with Iran was the worst deal ever" isn't fazing you a little bit?

[Tgo01]

A Trump Presidency could very well destroy this country, and let's be blunt- it would be guaranteed to destroy the republican party for the next 20 years.

Fear mongering! FEAR MONGERING!

[Androidpk]

How is that cognitive dissonance? It's not reasonable to think we should engage with them in regards to ISIS and at the same time criticize the nuclear deal? It has to be all or nothing? And no, for me it has never been about defending trump and spinning for him, just pointing out the blatant idiocy and hypocrisy of the Hillarists.

Do you think we should go to war with Russia over Syria?

[time4fun]

For a guy who says he doesn't want Trump in the WH, you sure have no problem defending him or spinning for him.

I mean, even the cognitive dissonance of "we should work with Iran to defeat ISIS" and "the nuclear deal with Iran was the worst deal ever" isn't fazing you a little bit?

I also love how he skipped the part where Trump said "If I were in office, you'd be in prison"

He's never really been willing to accept the realities of what Trump says he'll do.

[Tgo01]

For a guy who says he doesn't want Trump in the WH, you sure have no problem defending him or spinning for him.

I can't speak for pk but for me it's not that I think Trump is a great candidate and would make a good president, it's just that I think Hillary is worse.

And that's what really gets me this election. Democrats aren't saying the same thing; that is Hillary isn't a good candidate but Trump is worse.

Instead it's just post after post, video after video, tweet after tweet of "OMG! Hillary will make the bestest president EVER!"

Honestly, is it because she has a vagina?

[Wrathbringer]

How is that cognitive dissonance? It's not reasonable to think we should engage with them in regards to ISIS and at the same time criticize the nuclear deal? It has to be all or nothing? And no, for me it has never been about defending trump and spinning for him, just pointing out the blatant idiocy and hypocrisy of the Hillarists.

Do you think we should go to war with Russia over Syria?

You've just been trolled.

[Tgo01]

I also love how he skipped the part where Trump said "If I were in office, you'd be in prison"

time4fun, do you really need the dots connected for you?

Trump was saying that he believes Hillary is guilty and he wouldn't have meddled in the investigation process like he and other Democrats in power did, she Hillary would have charged and he thinks she would have been found guilty.

time4fun I refuse you are this fucking stupid. Who is feeding you these bullshit lines to parrot back all over the internet? Who has control over your mind, who? TELL US! We want to help!

[Wrathbringer]

time4fun, do you really need the dots connected for you?

Trump was saying that he believes Hillary is guilty and he wouldn't have meddled in the investigation process like he and other Democrats in power did, she Hillary would have charged and he thinks she would have been found guilty.

time4fun I refuse you are this fucking stupid. Who is feeding you these bullshit lines to parrot back all over the internet? Who has control over your mind, who? TELL US! We want to help!

You've just been trolled.

[Androidpk]

I also love how he skipped the part where Trump said "If I were in office, you'd be in prison"

He's never really been willing to accept the realities of what Trump says he'll do.

Given all the evidence that she broke multiple laws and Obama's administration aided in covering up I think it comes as no surprise that a Republican at the helm of the Executive branch wouldn't feel compelled to do the same as Obama has done. Still, there is nothing illegal about letting the DoJ carry out their duties like they're supposed to do, not protect one particular political group because they're in charge. You can't have it both ways.

[time4fun]

Given all the evidence that she broke multiple laws and Obama's administration aided in covering up I think it comes as no surprise that a Republican at the helm of the Executive branch wouldn't feel compelled to do the same as Obama has done. Still, there is nothing illegal about letting the DoJ carry out their duties like they're supposed to do, not protect one particular political group because they're in charge. You can't have it both ways.

You mean all of that evidence you got from Breibart?

Because no one who has investigated the issue agrees with you.

[Tgo01]

You've just been trolled.

You're controlling time4fun? You monster!

[Ashliana]

For me to consider voting for a Democratic candidate as liberal as Clinton is


as liberal as Clinton is

http://i.imgur.com/T05w8KV.jpg

[Androidpk]

You mean all of that evidence you got from Breibart?

Because no one who has investigated the issue agrees with you.

All the evidence released by the FBI..

[Candor]

Don't do it man.

I might still vote for Gary Johnson - admittedly I keep going back and forth on this. He needs some education, but perhaps that's something that could be corrected. Without question Johnson is a better choice than Trump - whether he is a better choice than Clinton from my perspective, I still need to determine.

[Tgo01]

I might still vote for Gary Johnson. He needs some education, but perhaps that's something that could be corrected. Without question Johnson is a better choice than Trump - whether he is a better choice than Clinton from my perspective, I still need to determine.

Hillary knows what Allepo is.

[Androidpk]

I might still vote for Gary Johnson. He needs some education, but perhaps that's something that could be corrected. Without question Johnson is a better choice than Trump - whether he is a better choice than Clinton from my perspective, I still need to determine.

It isn't about picking who will win, it's about going with a 3rd party to show the R's and D's that we won't tolerate bullshit candidates.

[Androidpk]

Hillary knows what Allepo is.

She's still trying to figure out who Ben Ghazi is.

[Parkbandit]

Better to have a tax plan you're not in love with than a sociopath with the ability to order the world's largest military to do his bidding.

A Trump Presidency could very well destroy this country, and let's be blunt- it would be guaranteed to destroy the republican party for the next 20 years.

LOL.

If you honestly believe that.. wouldn't you vote for Trump and move this country to a 1 party system? I'm sure the US would be ok for 4 years without being "destroyed"

It's one of the reasons I'm voting for him... not because I think the world would end.. but it would certainly force some changes to the Republican Party.

[Taernath]

I might still vote for Gary Johnson - admittedly I keep going back and forth on this. He needs some education, but perhaps that's something that could be corrected. Without question Johnson is a better choice than Trump - whether he is a better choice than Clinton from my perspective, I still need to determine.

Gary Johnson is just a weird dude.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXhR41lsEJY

[Tgo01]

Gary Johnson is just a weird dude.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXhR41lsEJY

I'm still not sure why he did that.

Like, did he even realize he did that? Was he just trying to be funny? Was he trying to make the point that he could act talk like that during the debate and make more sense than the other candidates? Was he just taking a page from Trump's playbook and trying to do/say strange things in order to get more press coverage?

They all make sense and he failed in all of them.

No wonder third parties never get anywhere in this country. You know, unless you're Bernie Sanders yet you decide to run on the Democrat ticket and end up dropping out and supporting the person who embodies everything you think is wrong with this country.

[Archigeek]

I find it interesting Iowa is suddenly considered uneducated by the left. Normally they vote Democrat, gave Obama the Whitehouse, first in the nation to legalize gay marriage....now. They are just a bunch of unnecessary dumbfucks...this is why you are losing Iowa.

Also, I'm a Democrat and I'm arguing against the assumption. My main point is that it's an unproductive argument, and while on percentages it might be true to a degree, it is of little value, when the real take away in this election is dissatisfaction on both sides. How quickly people forget that we nearly had an outlier candidate on the Democrat side as well.

[Archigeek]

The dissatisfaction in the electorate is not limited to those without college degrees. The middle class, including those with college degrees, have taken it on the chin as well. Wages in professions such as engineering and architecture and the like, have stagnated tremendously over the last 30 years. That dissatisfaction showed up in the form of Bernie support on the Dem side, and Trump support on the Rep side. Why we're divided is a complex issue, that involves a lot more than education level.

Trump's demographic base is pretty small at this point, and his inability to pivot to basically anyone else other than the religious right, will make it very difficult for him to win.

[time4fun]

Also, I'm a Democrat and I'm arguing against the assumption. My main point is that it's an unproductive argument, and while on percentages it might be true to a degree, it is of little value, when the real take away in this election is dissatisfaction on both sides. How quickly people forget that we nearly had an outlier candidate on the Democrat side as well.

Archi- come on here. This is not an issue of some small degree of difference. This is substantial.

The PRII poll that just came out today broke things down:

Men: Trump +11
Women: Clinton +33
Non-White Voters: +55 Clinton

White Voters: Tump +4

Broken down-
White Voters w/ College Degrees: Clinton +16
White Voters w/o College Degrees: Trump +21

A few weeks ago, most polls had Trump's supporters at about 60% white non college educated voters.

I know you're worried that this is a dig at Trump's supporters, but it's not. We don't do these voters any favors by pretending like they don't have shared concerns that aren't being met. We have to remind the rest of us that there's anger there.

Every once in a while, my boyfriend will hear Trump speak and start shouting "WHAT IS HE TALKING ABOUT? THE ECONOMY IS DOING MUCH BETTER- WE'RE DOING GREAT COMPARED TO A FEW YEARS AGO!". And I have to gently remind him that we have graduate degrees and live in major metro area in a wealthy coastal state, and that the recovery has been incredibly disproportionate. We have to deal with that.

[Candor]

Gary Johnson is just a weird dude.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXhR41lsEJY

Arrrgh.

[Parkbandit]

The dissatisfaction in the electorate is not limited to those without college degrees. The middle class, including those with college degrees, have taken it on the chin as well. Wages in professions such as engineering and architecture and the like, have stagnated tremendously over the last 30 years. That dissatisfaction showed up in the form of Bernie support on the Dem side, and Trump support on the Rep side. Why we're divided is a complex issue, that involves a lot more than education level.


I agree.

I think it's much less about specific policies and more about people are just sick and tired of the political ruling class in this country using them to get into office and not doing what they said they would do once they did.

[Parkbandit]

Archi- come on here. This is not an issue of some small degree of difference. This is substantial.

The PRII poll that just came out today broke things down:

Men: Trump +11
Women: Clinton +33
Non-White Voters: +55 Clinton

White Voters: Tump +4

Broken down-
White Voters w/ College Degrees: Clinton +16
White Voters w/o College Degrees: Trump +21

A few weeks ago, most polls had Trump's supporters at about 60% white non college educated voters.

I know you're worried that this is a dig at Trump's supporters, but it's not. We don't do these voters any favors by pretending like they don't have shared concerns that aren't being met. We have to remind the rest of us that there's anger there.

Every once in a while, my boyfriend will hear Trump speak and start shouting "WHAT IS HE TALKING ABOUT? THE ECONOMY IS DOING MUCH BETTER- WE'RE DOING GREAT COMPARED TO A FEW YEARS AGO!". And I have to gently remind him that we have graduate degrees and live in major metro area in a wealthy coastal state, and that the recovery has been incredibly disproportionate. We have to deal with that.

LOL.

[Archigeek]

I agree.

I think it's much less about specific policies and more about people are just sick and tired of the political ruling class in this country using them to get into office and not doing what they said they would do once they did.

If PB and I can agree on things, there's hope for this country yet! If "the electorate is fed up" is where it has to start, so be it. Hopefully, politicians will realize just how serious this is, and how we could end up with a wack job for president because they aren't doing their frickin' jobs. They need to stop looking for loose change in the asses of the wealthy and special interest groups for a moment and see that their job is bigger than lining their own pockets with life time benefits and lucrative back-end jobs. Failure to do so means eventually the American people will kick them to the curb.