General Wizard Nerf Discussion

[Astray]

No one was demanding GMs make good on their promise to nerf Haste, Rapid Fire, and Immolation.

Everyone likes a new class and not an outright nerf to an existing one.


Curious....when is the last time Simu put out anything about Savants?

The most recent thing I could find was this, in March of last year: "I do think Savants will eventually happen, just not in the near future."
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Savants/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Savants/view/43

I'd argue the "Savants RSN" cry is really just a player-perpetuated characterization of Simu's apathy for promises of change? Because they certainly aren't saying it.

Last year sounds about right. Granted, I believe they've mentioned Savants at least once a year.

It's not really perpetuated characterization. I just like doing it because one of these days I'll be right.

[Astray]

I will go ahead and say that Savant and MjM sound badass.

[Whirlin]

Last time I talked with Wyrom, he agreed that Wizards needed a much more in depth spell review after the ELR was completed. It simply wasn't in scope of the ELR. They may not have gotten approval / added it to the worklist yet or are unable to publically comment at this time.

The introduction of EVOKE verb allowing for choosing your element of attack introduces the ability to consolidate minor/ball/major bolts into 3 spell slots, rather than the 100000 spell slots they're using now. But, that'll leave a lot of gaps to be filled, and a much more substantial change compared to the ELR.

[Methais]

Last time I talked with Wyrom, he agreed that Wizards needed a much more in depth spell review after the ELR was completed. It simply wasn't in scope of the ELR. They may not have gotten approval / added it to the worklist yet or are unable to publically comment at this time.

The introduction of EVOKE verb allowing for choosing your element of attack introduces the ability to consolidate minor/ball/major bolts into 3 spell slots, rather than the 100000 spell slots they're using now. But, that'll leave a lot of gaps to be filled, and a much more substantial change compared to the ELR.

At this point I'd settle for "wizards will get some more stuff RSN".

Maybe that's their plan all along....take away your steak until you're ok with eating bread crumbs.

[Whirlin]

At this point I'd settle for "wizards will get some more stuff RSN".

Maybe that's their plan all along....take away you steak until you're ok with eating bread crumbs.

Probably thinking too much into it... I think it's moreso that Simutronics is bureaucratic bunch of low wage volunteers. Until they have things approved, scheduled, resourced, etc... they probably won't comment on intent... Otherwise we'd get another Savant promise.

[Methais]

Probably thinking too much into it... I think it's moreso that Simutronics is bureaucratic bunch of low wage volunteers. Until they have things approved, scheduled, resourced, etc... they probably won't comment on intent... Otherwise we'd get another Savant promise.

Regardless of how or why, the problem is all of that should have been designed, approved, etc. and taken care of before the nerfs were put into place.

What kind of dumbass approves nerfs now, fix RSN and thinks it's good game design that's will increase business?

[Velfi]

What kind of dumbass approves nerfs now, fix RSN and thinks it's good game design that's will increase business?

Simutronics.

[Warriorbird]

Regardless of how or why, the problem is all of that should have been designed, approved, etc. and taken care of before the nerfs were put into place.

What kind of dumbass approves nerfs now, fix RSN and thinks it's good game design that's will increase business?

The Rob Ford of pay MUD owners?

[Velfi]

http://i.imgur.com/difDP0J.gif

http://i.imgur.com/nwXzcxb.gif

http://i.imgur.com/xmzbIfj.gif

[Latrinsorm]

That is such fucking bullshit. You cut the legs out from under a class and expect them to be what? Grateful for it? Cry me a god damned river. You go nerfing a class, however OP they were deemed to be, and yeah, they're going to bitch. Grow a goddamned backbone and follow through with the plans to rebuild the profession you just tore down. Whiney children.I am not Estild, nor am I involved with Simutronics in any way: what I expect is for adults to act like adults. You're siding with the people who scream at the cashiers in a fast food place. That is not the right side.

[Fallen]

I am not Estild, nor am I involved with Simutronics in any way: what I expect is for adults to act like adults. You're siding with the people who scream at the cashiers in a fast food place. That is not the right side.

Way to grab my one post in this entire discussion across multiple threads where I express a bit of frustration.

[Wrathbringer]

Way to grab my one post in this entire discussion across multiple threads where I express a bit of frustration.

/Latrinsormed

[Fallen]

/Latrinsormed

:(

[Latrinsorm]

Way to grab my one post in this entire discussion across multiple where I express a bit of frustration.This is also not right.

1. You can express frustration by saying "I am frustrated". You chose to denigrate and insult people, you chose to leave it that way in the light of morning.

2. If you walk by someone's car twenty times without doing anything, then smash in their windows ONLY ONE time, their windows are still smashed in. You are not going to be excused because of the twenty.

That you can't even own up to and/or apologize for your behavior is very disappointing.

[Fallen]

This is also not right.

1. You can express frustration by saying "I am frustrated". You chose to denigrate and insult people, you chose to leave it that way in the light of morning.

2. If you walk by someone's car twenty times without doing anything, then smash in their windows ONLY ONE time, their windows are still smashed in. You are not going to be excused because of the twenty.

That you can't even own up to and/or apologize for your behavior is very disappointing.

How are you not a troll again?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/20/30/bb/2030bbf0e84a68814e4cd40f52a2de6b.jpg

[Astray]

No really though, Estild is a fucking crybaby.

[drauz]

Last time I talked with Wyrom, he agreed that Wizards needed a much more in depth spell review after the ELR was completed. It simply wasn't in scope of the ELR. They may not have gotten approval / added it to the worklist yet or are unable to publically comment at this time.

The introduction of EVOKE verb allowing for choosing your element of attack introduces the ability to consolidate minor/ball/major bolts into 3 spell slots, rather than the 100000 spell slots they're using now. But, that'll leave a lot of gaps to be filled, and a much more substantial change compared to the ELR.

Wouldn't it make more sense to do a spell review instead of a lore review? I mean doesn't it basically just waste all the development done in the ELR if the spells change with a spell review? They are just going to have to redo what the lores do. Unless they plan to do a half assed spell review because they put so much work into the ELR, and wont touch the spells they just reviewed in the ELR.

[drauz]

I am not Estild, nor am I involved with Simutronics in any way: what I expect is for adults to act like adults. You're siding with the people who scream at the cashiers in a fast food place. That is not the right side.

I would view it more like a power company that shuts off your power but says they will still charge you for what you would normally use, and they wont tell you when the power is coming back on. You're siding with the power company. That is not the right side.

These aren't people screaming at the cashier, they are complaining with each other, the cashier just might still be in earshot. Screaming at the cashier would be him saying that on the officials.

[Latrinsorm]

How are you not a troll again?Because I do not intend to provoke, disrupt, or argue. All I want is to share the truth. I don't like reusing metaphors but this was such a good one I'll make an exception: when you see someone screaming at a minimum wage cashier, you think that person is a jerk. Period.

See the truth. Embrace it. You will be happier, the people you would have debased will be happier, it's a win-win-win.
No really though, Estild is a fucking crybaby.Dammit. Alright, everybody out except Astray. Michael Scott.

[Astray]

Dammit. Alright, everybody out except Astray. Michael Scott.

Seriously though. That post was basically "This is why we can't have nice things" but it's painfully obvious that the reason we can't have nice things is because the person handing out the nice is smearing them in shit first.

[Latrinsorm]

That is the biggest load of BS I've seen in a while. First off this isn't the officials, where he didn't post this kind of frustration. Second you use a cheap example, I would view it more like a power company that shuts off your power but says they will still charge you for what you would normally use, and they wont tell you when the power is coming back on. You're siding with the power company. That is not the right side.Simutronics does not have a monopoly on leisure in general or video games in particular the way the power company has on power, and Simutronics is not charging you for a service it is not providing. Additionally, the post of Fallen's I responded to did not insult Simutronics as a company, it insulted the front line volunteer employees. I'm not going to dignify the "this isn't the officials" part with any further response.

What happened to treat others the way you want to be treated? I know I ask this a lot, but how am I the bad guy here?

[Velfi]

http://i.imgur.com/U1jczAS.jpg

[drauz]

What happened to treat others the way you want to be treated? I know I ask this a lot, but how am I the bad guy here?

Heres the thing, he isn't speaking to the GM.

This is you walking into a discussion and saying you don't like how people are talking over here. What are your thoughts on the wizard changes?

[Donquix]

If you don't hate the wizard changes and the people who made them, you're a god damned communist.

[Fallen]

Heres the thing, he isn't speaking to the GM.

This is you walking into a discussion and saying you don't like how people are talking over here.

http://powerup.tv/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/do_not_feed_the_troll_by_veilx-d38viyi.jpg

[caelric]

Simutronics does not have a monopoly on leisure in general or video games in particular the way the power company has on power, and Simutronics is not charging you for a service it is not providing. Additionally, the post of Fallen's I responded to did not insult Simutronics as a company, it insulted the front line volunteer employees. I'm not going to dignify the "this isn't the officials" part with any further response.

What happened to treat others the way you want to be treated? I know I ask this a lot, but how am I the bad guy here?

Because you are pretty much the fucktard in most discussions (at least on the PC, I don't know you in real life. Nor do I want to.) you get involved in. Jus' sayin'

[Methais]

I am not Estild, nor am I involved with Simutronics in any way: what I expect is for adults to act like adults. You're siding with the people who scream at the cashiers in a fast food place. That is not the right side.

If the cashier took your burger and wiped their ass with it then put it in the bag and handed it to you, would you consider screaming at them acceptable?

[Warriorbird]

Simutronics does not have a monopoly on leisure in general or video games in particular the way the power company has on power, and Simutronics is not charging you for a service it is not providing. Additionally, the post of Fallen's I responded to did not insult Simutronics as a company, it insulted the front line volunteer employees. I'm not going to dignify the "this isn't the officials" part with any further response.

What happened to treat others the way you want to be treated? I know I ask this a lot, but how am I the bad guy here?

I haven't said anything unkind. When faced with a series of decisions I didn't dig related to the game (mostly NOT the Wizard changes) I once again bounced. I can understand why other folks are upset though. Why can't you?

I just have a bit more awareness and blame this PARTICULAR issue on Whatley freaking out about microtransactions rather than the GMs.

[subzero]

TLDR: Simu has no fucking idea what they're doing or plan to do.

How could they? They're all volunteers running in their own direction it seems.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RwdH5DTKRas/S61FRthV4GI/AAAAAAAACxM/gTbbYb37_BY/s1600/move+along+people.gif


No one has a problem with them waiting to say shit until it's almost done. The problem arises when they implement part one of two without the part two being anywhere near ready.

If it IS almost ready, why wouldn't they wait to release it with the nerfs? It just doesn't make sense.

Ability to multi-curse RSN! (Unless it was released and I missed it, of course. In which case, see Barbrady above!)

[Paradii]

What is the general opinion on spell trajectories for thw warmages now. I have a wizard that is currently at 430, 920, 520. Prior to the changes I was going to concentrate mostly on the 400s to bump up 435/430, and slowly snag 925 and 930 along the way. Now I am guessing that it makes more sense to concentrate on the 500's and 400's for a bit.

Thoughts?

[Donquix]

930 isn't terribly useful without several more ranks in wiz. It will backfire a lot. You can mitigate the 930 penalty some if you actually bother to use the GATE runestones. But if you're just 2xing spells and you already have 70 of them you're what, level 35? I avoided using it until like 60+, as a pure (never used it much on my warmage)

After getting 430 on my warmage i rushed to 540 and didn't regret it, even with comparatively low EMC skill (i 1xed). Keeping your MjE higher also lets you more easily leech, if mana is a problem keeping up 919 + disabling spells. Also with the haste changes, I'm assuming you aren't at high enough air lore for free swings under celerity yet? (though if you are like 35ish you could be if you 1.5xed or so ,depending on weapon) So the extra MjE ranks will reduce your stamina costs. So i did your exact spread (430, 520, 920) then -> MjE to level, stop at 40 -> MnE to level (stop at 75) -> remaining in wiz

(40 + 20 + 30)/2 - 1 = level 44 if doubling you should finish mje to 40

around level 59 you should hit MnE to level, so that would put you not getting 925/930 till 70. Long time to wait so, picking them up earlier (because they are neat and all wizardy) isn't a bad thing. Also it will be ~10 extra DS and a more reliable 912, all good things.

edit: forgot, definitely will want to at least go to 535, defensive haste!

[Latrinsorm]

Heres the thing, he isn't speaking to the GM.If "You go nerfing a class" isn't speaking to the GM, to whom is it speaking?
This is you walking into a discussion and saying you don't like how people are talking over here. What are your thoughts on the wizard changes?It is my contention that treating people with common decency is a more important issue than these wizards changes.
If the cashier took your burger and wiped their ass with it then put it in the bag and handed it to you, would you consider screaming at them acceptable?Again, treat people how you want to be treated. Not treat people how they have treated you. The answer to your question is no, I don't let other people dictate my responses to them.
I haven't said anything unkind. When faced with a series of decisions I didn't dig related to the game (mostly NOT the Wizard changes) I once again bounced. I can understand why other folks are upset though. Why can't you?I understand the concept of being upset, and I understand the choice to vent that frustration as hurtfully as possible. I don't tolerate it, hence the comment. Adulthood is not indicated by a lack of emotion, but by an ability to control those impulses. This is especially true in a time delayed, written medium such as these forums.

[Methais]

Taverkin summed it up pretty well on the officials.


I would say the chance of triggering effects should relate to the power of the effect. As you point out, the most powerful effects by far are simply training more air lore for less benefit than we received previously without lore. And with nothing announced to add to or significantly alter the wizard playstyle, I expect I'm not the only wizard feeling disappointed.

I'm still holding out hope they'll come up with a plan to fix this and make lores into what they should be. I'm not a game designer, but if I had to guess at a starting framework: mark every rank threshold - the range at which a wizard is forced to choose between one lore and another. For instance, if the max were an even 200 ranks you could split your lores 4 ways at cap, making rank 51 the point at which you are able to force a choice between lores.

The way I see it, the power of the effects in each lore type should be tiered based upon what you have to give up to receive the benefit. Each rank threshold represents a higher tier. Plenty of low-hanging fruit to justify generalist builds at cap and leveling builds along the way. But the really powerful effects should be reserved for the higher tiers and for combo effects between specific lores to encourage hybrids as well as specialists.

The problem I observe with the ELR is that none of the effects are particularly powerful. The slot machine defense is a perfect example of an underwhelming design. While it could certainly work, I see little in the way of progression. We seem locked into this ridiculous seed chart that dictates a long, slow curve of very modest progression. I think I would have preferred making more powerful effects at the threshold points. It would have felt more coherent and, with some really nice buffs balanced by the fact that you can't reach them without giving up powerful benefits in other lores, I think we would have had a more interesting profession.

As it stands, wizards seem pretty much the same as ever in playstyle, but with fewer options and much less power at the cap.

PS: gtfo Latrin

[Silvean]

I wish lores were better. The good ideas in Taverkin's post would require a change to overall game design, not just wizards.

That said, I am acutely aware of how solid necromancy lore is because my character has 0 ranks in it. If you look at the list of benefits, you'll see a lot of concrete expansions of abilities and power with very few seed-based slot machines. I'm not familiar with the other lores but necromancy may be as good as it can be under the current system; it's especially relevant since it was so recently reviewed.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Sorcerous_Lore,_Necromancy

[caelric]

As a side note, the problem with the seed chart is not only diminishing returns, but false hopes. By that I mean that seed 1 seems so much better than seed 10, but...because of the progression it isn't actually much difference at cap. For example, 202 ranks (max unenhanced) of seed 1 gets you a bonus of 19, while seed 10 gives you a bonus of 12. With the slot machine/% chance of processing that seems to be the trend for wizard spells, 19 vs 12 is not that much difference. Thus, the false hope I stated. But I doubt any of that is going to change much.

[Silvean]

As a side note, the problem with the seed chart is not only diminishing returns, but false hopes. By that I mean that seed 1 seems so much better than seed 10, but...because of the progression it isn't actually much difference at cap. For example, 202 ranks (max unenhanced) of seed 1 gets you a bonus of 19, while seed 10 gives you a bonus of 12. With the slot machine/% chance of processing that seems to be the trend for wizard spells, 19 vs 12 is not that much difference. Thus, the false hope I stated. But I doubt any of that is going to change much.

I don't know the secret origins of the seed chart but it makes a lot more sense in a tabletop setting where you're fighting 10 monsters in a group session than in a MUD where you are fighting hundreds solo. Imagine how it would work to roll dice against 12% odds of a better attack with your 5-player group fighting the dragon together -- that works. It doesn't work in Gemstone.

[SashaFierce]

Overall, I think there is a major disconnect between the DEV team and what wizards actually want.

From synergy between spells, to actual needs. They completely missed the mark with the ELR.

[Mettler]

Overall, I think there is a major disconnect between the DEV team and what wizards actually want.

From synergy between spells, to actual needs. They completely missed the mark with the ELR.

This.

I recently started a little burghal gnome sorcerer. I feel like sorcerers are in a really good place right now, and are everything I could want my wizard to be.

[caelric]

Yeah, wizards are pretty much in the place sorcerers were after growing pains. Fortunately, the changes to wizard spells did allow them more room to implement important things like the recent 205/206 changes.....

[Whirlin]

Yes... but from a mechanics implementation perspective... we've seen some pretty fucking cool shit added during the ELR that was previously an absolute pipedream from a development perspective:
-520... even though it COMPLETELY MISSES THE FUCKING POINT OF WHAT WIZARDS NEED... it introduced DEFENSIVE flares as a buff, independent of all attributes of your worn armor.
-425... Next-hit weighting on a weapon type which previously had no weighting
-502... Identification of element that you're attacking with, and vulnerability to reduce it's DS? That's pretty cool. Especially because it also works on weapons' flares.
-513... Stacking debuffs against targets as you continue to bolt.
-506... From a strictly mechanics perspective, it's a pretty cool spell... dynamically changing stamina cost of a universal CMAN and auto-detection of maximized benefit to alleviate tedium of having to dynamically change your attack commands.
-518... We now have a spell that we can set to whatever element we want. Think of the potential when/if they get around to a wizard spell review in 2089
-403... Wizards don't care... but lockpick strength adjustments? That's some cool mechanic adjustment that I'd have never even thought of
-401/406/414... an ability which only exists if you have 3 spells, and lore present... First of it's kind we've seen
-Channeled bolts... Dynamically changing Critical randomization floors for the first time ever... We've only seen weighting increases, never seen any adjustments to critical randomization before.

Independent of whether or not wizards were nerfed to all fuck in the ELR, regardless of whether the changes even are worth a damn, there have been some incredibly interesting manipulation of mechanics that we haven't seen before in Gemstone... which is promising for ultra-convoluted and cool things in the future.

[Fallen]

>The ELR has a big checkmark next to it and off the to-do list, wizards are not planned to get any development this year or in the near future since they just finished with them a month ago.

I assure you that this statement is completely untrue.

~Contemplar~
.

[Methais]

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t34.0-12/12674397_10153567969097535_1692615851_n.jpg?oh=cda 5eafeef691fbb292864eaff57ccbb&oe=56B3AB7C

[Taernath]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/146/984/tumblr_lihgpqXxAZ1qesluno1_500.png

[Fallen]

> Are wizards stuck in this disastrous state of boring as hell mediocrity forever due to these insane nerfs?
We've kind of already said multiple times and in multiple ways that we can't answer this question. If we promise that stuff is coming and then for whatever who knows what reason it doesn't come that is a problem. You can respond to this by pointing out that that has already happened a hundred times, which would be true, but...

We're fixing that, and we aren't going to show things until they're in a state where we KNOW FOR SERIOUSLY YOU GUYS that you're going to see them. I can't say anything about what I'm working on, and I can't say if it's Wizard-related or not. All I can say is it is murderously difficult every day to NOT share the stuff I'm doing, because I think it's awesomesauce.

I know it's hard for you to sit and wait, maybe it helps to know that it's hard for me too? No matter how difficult it is though, I still think it's the right decision.

~ Konacon

[Viekn]

[/FONT][/COLOR]


I'd wager not a day goes by on these forums where someone doesn't mention "savants", .."RSN!" Based on that, even if I were a GM and knew GSV were right around the corner give or take 30-60 days and some cool stuff was coming, I wouldn't say shit if I were any of them. Doesn't mean we won't like it any less, but I certainly don't blame them for saying nothing, whether changes are coming or not.


Unless they can't complete the future project without knowing for sure how the nerfs will eventually be finalized? I'd figure once they rolled out the nerfs, they knew there'd be pushback and they'd have to tweak them a bit. So roll them out, get the feedback, get them finalized, then they are free to complete whatever improvements/changes were dependent on the nerfs happening first. Just a thought. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. It works out about 6 times in 10, but sometimes those other 4 times are a real bitch.

Told you.

[Tgo01]

Well you gotta admire Simu's honesty.

"Yeah, we promised shit before in the past but we never implemented that shit so now we're just going to keep you guys in the dark about future changes. Don't forget to pay your monthly sub and remember to check out the Simu store!"

[Donquix]

It's one thing to not talk about net new additions to the game, or take forever to implement.

It's another to fuck over people with decades invested and treat that as if, in any fucking way, they are equivalent.

Also...once again....test realm? Seriously. What in the god damn fuck. This is not fucking complicated. So much pain could have been avoided.

[Methais]

Yes like 4-5 mages left because their 1 trick hunting strategy was to 515 901, or immolate, that sounds pretty boring, either of those choices. Checking the numbers of wizards online every day, I haven't noticed a marked decline in wizards playing, which continues to be the most populous class online.

I don't like the 1 sec RT clunkiness of 515, but then I have learned to use it less, and try out more combos. Before basically I didn't even have to knockdown or incapacitate, just walk in the room and 515, bolt type decided how long I want my hunt to run. Now, e wave, 502, 505, 505, then 903,904,or 906. If more critters arrive during the kill re e-wave and cone.


Simutronics is not in danger of going broke, these games are still quite profitable. People think Simu is on the ropes and that's far from the truth. At any rate people threatening to leave or leaving has never changed policy much. Nerfing and buffing classes happens in all of the long running games including biggest MMO out there.

It has been stated that the changes were mandated from above, you do know you can call and talk to David Whatley at Simutronics? He is the big shot in charge. why not call him?

The coding team implemented and incorporated player Ideas into the changes and had to get those changes approved from above. Too many people want to continue to bash the coding team when they are just implementing changes ordered from above and they went to bat for us long before anything was changed.

You know I have seen a few old mages return to playing since the HSN and in all probability that has balanced out the few who left because their niche hunting style got a clipping.

Maybe just maybe some folks left because they didn't find using the 2 common styles of play very much fun.


Just an elf about town...

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Wizard%20Spells/view/2407

Apparently Dave Whatley is just sitting around the office waiting to hear from us. What are we waiting for?

[Fallen]

He also called Destiny14 autistic in that thread, which I would imagine has since been pulled.

[Whirlin]

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Wizard%20Spells/view/2407

Apparently Dave Whatley is just sitting around the office waiting to hear from us. What are we waiting for?
I don't even think Rroy has a capped character.

[Methais]

I don't even think Rroy has a capped character.

I assumed as much when I saw this...


Now, e wave, 502, 505, 505, then 903,904,or 906. If more critters arrive during the kill re e-wave and cone.

Whoever he is, he's a fucking retard and is always posting dumb "wizards are fine" bullshit.

Everyone is fine at like level 40 or whatever. Wizards are great vs. kobolds too.

[Donquix]

I like how people always point out the wizards logged on numbers as a sign of a healthy class to actually play, rather than being spell/enchant bots.

I have problems with the changes, but I don't think everything is omg ruined forever, or think like 80% of the class is going to up and leave or anything. But a huge number of wizards logged on previously were 511/503/509 + enchant bots....the ELR / nerfs didn't do anything to change that fact.

[Methais]

I like how people always point out the wizards logged on numbers as a sign of a healthy class to actually play, rather than being spell/enchant bots.

This is typically only used by people who don't have a clue how shit works.


I have problems with the changes, but I don't think everything is omg ruined forever, or think like 80% of the class is going to up and leave or anything. But a huge number of wizards logged on previously were 511/503/509 + enchant bots....the ELR / nerfs didn't do anything to change that fact.

What annoys me right now is that since 415 blows Immolate out of the water with 100 ranks of fire lore for guaranteed double casts, I needed to jack up my MnE CS. But at the same time I can't max it out because I still need MjE CS for Mana Leech, so now my CS is split (ended up going 101/101/101 for 530 CS when my Immolate CS used to be 557) and it's fucking retarded.

[subzero]

This is typically only used by people who don't have a clue how shit works.



What annoys me right now is that since 415 blows Immolate out of the water with 100 ranks of fire lore for guaranteed double casts, I needed to jack up my MnE CS. But at the same time I can't max it out because I still need MjE CS for Mana Leech, so now my CS is split (ended up going 101/101/101 for 530 CS when my Immolate CS used to be 557) and it's fucking retarded.

Fun, ain't it? Look people, new spell searing light (135) has been released! It's a minor circle cs spell that does nothing because none of you suckers have the cs to hit with it!

[mlbiv]

I just recently returned to GSIV after a 10 year break and wanted to play a pure wizard... until I saw this thread. With these changes, are pure wizards a viable option both at lower and higher levels? If not, should I roll a sorcerer (or another class) if my intent is to play a pure build?

[Fallen]

I just recently returned to GSIV after a 10 year break and wanted to play a pure wizard... until I saw this thread. With these changes, are pure wizards a viable option both at lower and higher levels? If not, should I roll a sorcerer (or another class) if my intent is to play a pure build?

Wizards are viable at all levels. The changes hit Wizards who were either high level, or capped the hardest, but even they can still hunt. Sorcerers are in better shape than Wizards at the moment, but there are in all likelihood further improvements on the way for Wizards.

What did you play prior to your break?

[mlbiv]

Wizards are viable at all levels. The changes hit Wizards who were either high level, or capped the hardest, but even they can still hunt. Sorcerers are in better shape than Wizards at the moment, but there are in all likelihood further improvements on the way for Wizards.

What did you play prior to your break?

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I don't have as much time to play as I did back in the day so I didn't want to limited time available into a gimped class. The general feeling I from this thread (or at least the first few pages) was nothing but doom and gloom and was making me rethink my choice.

Previously I played mostly melee classes: a sword and board Ranger and a Rogue. I wanted to mostly do casting this time and I don't really like the "dark" magic focus of Sorcerers.

[Fallen]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I don't have as much time to play as I did back in the day so I didn't want to limited time available into a gimped class. The general feeling I from this thread (or at least the first few pages) was nothing but doom and gloom and was making me rethink my choice.

Previously I played mostly melee classes: a sword and board Ranger and a Rogue. I wanted to mostly do casting this time and I don't really like the "dark" magic focus of Sorcerers.

I'd keep an eye on the thread as I imagine you'll receive a number of responses in due time. I've only played a Wizard at low levels and from 90ish-100. There are more than a few here who have played one at most levels pre/post changes that could likely offer a more nuanced opinion.

[Furryrat]

I don't have as much time to play as I did back in the day so I didn't want to limited time available into a gimped class. The general feeling I from this thread (or at least the first few pages) was nothing but doom and gloom and was making me rethink my choice.

This is really sad. Not interested in reigniting the debate (or maybe I am, much too quiet around here), but I want to add that those who play classic-style bolting wizards, using utility spells like the former 506 and 515 sparingly as an augmenter and not policy, suffered little of this purported doom and gloom. Rapid Fire is still there to use when needed, and Haste is now essentially a permanent non-combat round time reduction.

[Methais]

Bolting with a wizard is about on par with playing a non-ambushing melee build as far as fun factor goes.

[subzero]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I don't have as much time to play as I did back in the day so I didn't want to limited time available into a gimped class. The general feeling I from this thread (or at least the first few pages) was nothing but doom and gloom and was making me rethink my choice.

Previously I played mostly melee classes: a sword and board Ranger and a Rogue. I wanted to mostly do casting this time and I don't really like the "dark" magic focus of Sorcerers.

Crying about change will always be the most noticed noise, especially when the conversations basically hang around forever on the interwebz.