General Wizard Nerf Discussion

[Fallen]

Figured it might be useful to separate general discussion from spell-specific discussion regarding the Wizard nerfs. Feel to Rep/Insult as suits your fancy.

I wanted to X-post Drafix's excellent post with his general testing of some of the changes.


So I've done some testing... here are my initial findings with 202 air lore:

The changes effectively remove the mana efficiency of using 901. On average it takes me 20 casts of 901 to take down a rift crawler. 6 casts of 903. 7 casts of 904. 11 casts of 906. 910 takes about 4 casts.
As stated above, the costs to take down a rift crawler becomes approximately 20/18/28/66/40 mana and 20/6/7/11/4 RT respectively.

Then if you try to use the rapidfire spell while on cooldown, that's effectively 120/48/63/121/60 mana respectively, making it effectively unusable during cooldown.

As you can see wizard bolt spells aren't particularly powerful, the DFs are weak, costs are high, and aren't particularly effective even with the air lore DF boost for 901/910.


I, however, have been able to kill crawlers in 1-4 shots with a bow with maximum skill/enhancives (lots of death crits resulting in some quick one hit deaths).
So that works out to be 1-4 rt, basically negligible mana cost to cast celerity, and no cooldown.
It seems being a war mage is much better than bolting now.
The caveat is that you have to be able to hit things with your 471 maximized bolt AS. Some crawlers just have excessively high DS regardless of the fact they're in offensive stance and wear no spells. Fetish masters have ~480+ ranged DS in offensive/prone so trying to hit them would be pointless.
Furthermore anything using a shield is basically a lost cause as well since critters tend to be fully trained to use shields. That ends up being something like 303 shield ranks + tower shield versus the 101 ranged ranks. Fallen crusaders come to mind as they tend to block 3-4 of my shots consecutively like Captain America or something. I cannot hit any vvrael warlocks that use tower shields as they basically hit 600 ranged DS with a tower shield.

So where does that put wizards all-in-all? For war mages, haste adds no change to how they hunted before as haste effectively adds no changes to offensive actions. For defensive purposes, 535 is much weaker as even 5 rt turns into 2 rt when before 8 rt turned into 1rt. Bolting without rapid fire is much weaker. Bolting in general isn't very effective. I have death critted a few cerebralites using 512 on the first cast so that looks promising. 519 without the lore training is costly and rarely death crits.

[Methais]

https://41.media.tumblr.com/6d2afe1feee50c972804e9421db72583/tumblr_ntr0nzXms91uc250go1_500.jpg

[Tgo01]

Yeah the Rapid Fire changes is just a flat out nerf. Immolation change is a nerf too, pretty sure the GM announcement basically said as much.

Celerity is basically the same as the old Haste for the tasks Celerity affects, except now it requires much more air lore training to achieve the desired effect.

The new Haste is actually worse than the old Haste for the tasks it affects, but it's not a huge difference. The nice thing about the new Haste is it's stackable spell and you can achieve the same effect as before via a combination of air lore ranks and major elemental spell ranks. Of course now it takes two spell slots to achieve a worse effect than the previous single spell slot of Haste.

Overall this is a complete nerf for every build of wizards, not sure how anyone out there can say with a straight face that this doesn't effect wizards or how they are somehow even buffed...yes I'm pretty sure I saw one post on the officials stating wizards are in better shape now.

[Astray]

Re-roll, redo, restart.

[Donquix]

Same on 512. I don't know if the lore increases the damage at all but on high warding margins I was getting pretty good results with it. The problem, obviously, is you can't recast it until the first ice patch wears off.

But since it is decent already, and a disable of sorts, it might be worth combining with the 903 benefits. 903 was already apparently the most mana effective bolt spell in drafix's tests (need more runs on this maybe?) and the change to minor cold is a pretty sizable increase in both DF and AvD across the board (nearly double on plate, for instance)

It would be nice if we could get some time with a fast mitigation period or access to the testing realm for this. These are significant changes.

[Fallen]

It would be nice if we could get some time with a fast mitigation period or access to the testing realm for this. These are significant changes.

Good idea. I'll ask on the boards about fast migration. Considering the scope of these changes, that seems warranted.

[Gnomad]

Celerity also reduces the RoundTime of the following utility actions: DISARM (traps), FORAGE, HIDE, PICKLOCK, SEARCH, TEND. The cost per second of RoundTime reduction is calculated as (10 + action_speed), and the total amount of RoundTime removal is calculated by ((30 + (1 per rank of Elemental Lore: Air)) / cost_per_second). Action speeds are: 20 (HIDE), 15 (SEARCH, FORAGE), 10 (DISARM, PICKLOCK), 5 (TEND).

It's not obvious yet to everybody, but the change is a huge nerf on these skills. The RT reduction is back to flat numbers, not percentages, and 535 explicitly and intentionally doesn't affect them. Expect to go from 2-4 second bounty searches to 8, for example, if you have 24 ranks of Air Lore.

[Astray]

It's not obvious yet to everybody, but the change is a huge nerf on these skills. The RT reduction is back to flat numbers, not percentages, and 535 explicitly and intentionally doesn't affect them. Expect to go from 2-4 second bounty searches to 8, for example, if you have 24 ranks of Air Lore.

Celerity confirmed for dog shit.

[Donquix]

Good idea. I'll ask on the boards about fast migration. Considering the scope of these changes, that seems warranted.

<3

i was going to...then i looked at the interface on the officials and vomitted on my keyboard instead.

[Fallen]

It's not obvious yet to everybody, but the change is a huge nerf on these skills. The RT reduction is back to flat numbers, not percentages, and 535 explicitly and intentionally doesn't affect them. Expect to go from 2-4 second bounty searches to 8, for example, if you have 24 ranks of Air Lore.

PFLATS did some number crunching on this front (is that you?)


Yup. Flat RT reduction now, no MjE. You'll drop down to 7 seconds at 55 ranks of Air Lore, and another -1 second for every 25 ranks beyond that. So at 155 ranks of air lore, you'll be back to 3 second searches, and if you enhance Air Lore up to 205 ranks, you can get 1 second bounty searches.

[Gnomad]

blowin' my cover, bro

[Tgo01]

It's not obvious yet to everybody, but the change is a huge nerf on these skills. The RT reduction is back to flat numbers, not percentages, and 535 explicitly and intentionally doesn't affect them. Expect to go from 2-4 second bounty searches to 8, for example, if you have 24 ranks of Air Lore.

Yeah I really think a lot of people commenting about how awesome the new Haste is don't realize that it purposefully doesn't affect these skills, which is why I say it's silly for the new Haste to be in the 535 slot. The main reason anyone would even bother with 535 is roundtimes from CMANs and things like ewave.

[Fallen]

blowin' my cover, bro

https://salsaspeaks.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/sorry-not-sorry.gif?w=474

[Velfi]

http://i.imgur.com/DjZor29.jpg

[subzero]

Same on 512. I don't know if the lore increases the damage at all but on high warding margins I was getting pretty good results with it. The problem, obviously, is you can't recast it until the first ice patch wears off.

But since it is decent already, and a disable of sorts, it might be worth combining with the 903 benefits. 903 was already apparently the most mana effective bolt spell in drafix's tests (need more runs on this maybe?) and the change to minor cold is a pretty sizable increase in both DF and AvD across the board (nearly double on plate, for instance)

It would be nice if we could get some time with a fast mitigation period or access to the testing realm for this. These are significant changes.

Don't all you motherfuckers go riding my jock now.

[Thondalar]

I'm probably not going to gain much favor with my fellow Wizards here, but...I actually feel pretty strongly about this. While it certainly can't be considered a "buff" to any normal build, I don't see any problems with this "nerf".

Rapid Fire is broken. There, I said it. Now, maybe it'll be fixed...I don't think it ever should have been a spell to begin with, but that's just me. We have Haste...rapid fire, although mechanically different, is a spiritual redundancy. A speed or haste effect has long been in the wheelhouse of wizards across platforms in the medieval fantasy genre; that's perfectly normal. Haste covers that on the offensive end, and 540 covers it on the defensive end...rapid fire is superfluous, and was a broken idea to begin with.

Immolation, to me, was more an issue with the lore effect for the spell. It costs a lot of mana to cast, but at near-to-post-cap when most people use it regularly, mana isn't really an issue, especially for wizards. The crit table and chance of insta-kill for Immolation with solid fire lore blows past just about everything else available to any other class, besides certain hybrid AoE spells, for a class that already has a LOT of offensive options. Personally, I've never used it...at least not as a normal hunting tactic. None of my wizards have fire lore either, though, so...

I'd say approach it logically. We've all known for a long time now that rapid fire is broken, and we've all known for a long time now that immolation builds are broken. Guess what? There are a TON of us wizards that get by just fine without using either of those. Technically, it's a nerf, but...it's one that needed to be done. Lrn2wiz.

[Methais]

I wonder who at Simu was like "Hey guys, I know what will make the game more fun..." just before rolling this bullshit out.

I've never seen any gaming company so obsessed with nerfing shit in general, especially when most of the things that get nerfed have been fine for decades and didn't need nerfs in the first place, and do nothing but slowly kill off a little bit more of the player base.

Word on the e-street is Whatley for whatever reason has been getting more hands on with things after deciding that slowing down combat is the way to go, which would explain all of this stupidity.

Cunts.

I wonder how long before 1030 gets nerfed if I start leveling my bard up more.

[time4fun]

Of course this was a nerf. You already knew it was a nerf. They were clear about that from the get go.

I don't understand the confusion here.

[Velfi]

...

Thankfully the one true wizard has chimed in.

[Tgo01]

I'd say approach it logically. We've all known for a long time now that rapid fire is broken, and we've all known for a long time now that immolation builds are broken. Guess what? There are a TON of us wizards that get by just fine without using either of those. Technically, it's a nerf, but...it's one that needed to be done. Lrn2wiz.

The thing is wizards weren't really all that powerful even before the Immolate, Haste, and Rapid Fire nerf. The fact that plenty of wizards apparently did just fine without Immolate or Rapid Fire proves the spells weren't necessary to be a successful wizard.

My empath kicks my wizard's ass in terms of combat prowess. My bard kicks my wizard's ass too. Once my ranger becomes as post cap as my wizard is I'd say my ranger kicks my wizard's ass as well. I guess one could look at Rapid Fire in a vacuum and say "Yeah, yeah that sounds too good." But when you consider the only class that can cast it natively isn't this hunting machine everyone thinks they are then it seems kind of silly to nerf it.

Couple this with the fact that they nerfed Haste (and every smart wizard always kept haste on if they hunted things that used CMANs) and it just makes even less sense.

[Tgo01]

Of course this was a nerf. You already knew it was a nerf. They were clear about that from the get go.

I don't understand the confusion here.

The confusion is some people thinking this puts wizards in a better place. Or some people saying they would kill for the new 535 spell because it's just oh so awesome as a level 35 spell.

[Thondalar]

Of course this was a nerf. You already knew it was a nerf. They were clear about that from the get go.

I don't understand the confusion here.

Isn't confusion so much as all the wizards using obviously broken builds, that most would admit were broken in normal class conversations, now have to play the class the way it was originally designed. Guess what? Wiz is still OP....it's just not ridiculously broken anymore.

In this vein, Empaths should be next on the nerf list. (Imagine hearing that 20 years ago).

[Tgo01]

Wiz is still OP....

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/21308661/images/1351350025354.jpg

[Fallen]

It would be nice if we could get some time with a fast mitigation period or access to the testing realm for this. These are significant changes.


Good idea. I'll ask on the boards about fast migration. Considering the scope of these changes, that seems warranted.

Finros says no.

[Thondalar]

The thing is wizards weren't really all that powerful even before the Immolate, Haste, and Rapid Fire nerf.

You're talking to someone who has played since 1990, had one wizard over level 100 before there was a level cap, and now has three wizards total...only class I've never played is a Paladin, and only classes I haven't had at cap or near-cap, even after GS4, are paladin and monk. My wizards have, collectively, died like 20 times total (that's counting 5 chars over 25 years), and most of those were maneuvers when hunting in new areas for the first time, before I knew what to disable first.


The fact that plenty of wizards apparently did just fine without Immolate or Rapid Fire proves the spells weren't necessary to be a successful wizard.

You're exactly right, which is why they're finally getting nerfed. You just made the best argument against yourself.


My empath kicks my wizard's ass in terms of combat prowess.

Over all, I would have to agree. Empaths are pretty boss right now...notice the part at the end of my last post suggesting they should be next on the nerf-block.


My bard kicks my wizard's ass too.

I stopped hunting on my present bard, Thondalar, quite a while ago...but yeah, he's stupid strong. Even at 34, with a fairly normal lance and 5x HCP brig, he hunts way better than my wizard did at 34...I think...I mentioned hybrids in my post, which leads to...


Once my ranger becomes as post cap as my wizard is I'd say my ranger kicks my wizard's ass as well.

Rangers are also bad-asses. I don't think anyone can claim that the hybrid classes, bards and rangers, are gimped combat-wise.


I guess one could look at Rapid Fire in a vacuum and say "Yeah, yeah that sounds too good." But when you consider the only class that can cast it natively isn't this hunting machine everyone thinks they are then it seems kind of silly to nerf it.

This is where you and I disagree. Wizard class has been my main "hunter" for quite some time now, and I've always played my wizards as straight bolters...except for one warmage, which quite honestly was just to get him to 40ish pretty quick and easy with a 4x claid I had laying around so I could retrain him to just do 4 and 5x enchants. Even with the critter changes that came with GS4, having a huge bolt AS and using your bolts properly, and various disablers available, of which wizards have a LOT...it is pretty stupid easy to hunt with a wizard.

When you couple this with the fact that you have more non-combat utility than most other classes...


Couple this with the fact that they nerfed Haste (and every smart wizard always kept haste on if they hunted things that used CMANs) and it just makes even less sense.

I started stacking haste around 70ish...it was certainly a blessing. Necessary? Maybe not, but nice...honestly I haven't looked much into what celerity and the new Haste does, so I'm reserving all of my judgement until I check that out, but...regardless, I feel quite comfortable saying wizards are fine.

[Astray]

Wiz is still OP....it's just not ridiculously broken anymore.

No, they aren't. I considered Wizards to be fairly balanced, even in the early game. Now though? They are completely stripped of several key playing styles in favor of... well, slower and less dynamic hunting styles.

OP is reserved for Sorcerers.

[Fallen]

So we nerfed Wizards, and should soon nerf Empaths, Rangers, and Bards.

Yep, sounds like the perfect use of the miniscule amount of DEV resources we have at our disposal.

[Tgo01]

My wizards have, collectively, died like 20 times total (that's counting 5 chars over 25 years)

Do you ever hunt your wizards in capped hunting grounds at all? Because this sounds like hyperbole.


You're exactly right, which is why they're finally getting nerfed. You just made the best argument against yourself.

If the spells weren't necessary for a wizard to be successful this is an argument against them being nerfed. If every wizard used these spells that would prove they are overpowered because, again, every wizard was using them.


Rangers are also bad-asses. I don't think anyone can claim that the hybrid classes, bards and rangers, are gimped combat-wise.

So if wizards were already at best in 4th place in terms of hunting then how are they still considered overpowered even after all of these nerfs? Surely they dropped down at least 1 spot from all of these nerfs so at best they're in the middle of the pack. I'm not saying wizards are hurting or anything, I think all classes can hunt just fine. I just disagree that they are so overpowered they needed these major reductions in power.


When you couple this with the fact that you have more non-combat utility than most other classes...

What like, spell ups and enchanting? The former literally every class can do (different spell circles of course) and the latter requiring months of work to make any progress?


I feel quite comfortable saying wizards are fine.

I agree, wizards are just fine, not overpowered. If Simu's goal was to make wizards "just fine" then I say "job well done."

If Simu's goal was to put them on par with other classes then they failed miserably. If their goal was to make the class more fun or engaging then again they failed miserably.

[Tgo01]

OP is reserved for Sorcerers.

Oh yeah I forgot sorcs. My sorc isn't even that far post cap and he kicks almost as much ass as my ~4 million experience post cap wizard.

[Fallen]

Oh yeah I forgot sorcs. My sorc isn't even that far post cap and he kicks almost as much ass as my ~4 million experience post cap wizard.

I'd say Sorcerers were on par with a well-specced Wizard pre-nerfs. Now? Not so much.

[Donquix]

[/I][/COLOR]



Finros says no.

so fucking stupid, which is pretty normal for him.

[Warriorbird]

I'm glad they boosted War Mages. Kinda shitty about the defensive nerf. Bolters still being screwed is unsurprising. They really want people to use CS.

[Fallen]

so fucking stupid, which is pretty normal for him.

I don't know why they wouldn't grant such a request. Many people aren't going to be thrilled about these changes. Why not soften the blow?

[Thondalar]

Do you ever hunt your wizards in capped hunting grounds at all? Because this sounds like hyperbole.

I will admit that I have not hunted in capped areas with my wizard since GS3, because I have not had a "capped" wizard since then. I have, however, hunted with a bolting sorcerer in capped areas, and I know enough about mechanics to be safe in my assumption that my wizard would do it better.


If the spells weren't necessary for a wizard to be successful this is an argument against them being nerfed. If every wizard used these spells that would prove they are overpowered because, again, every wizard was using them.

I don't really follow your logic here. If they aren't necessary, (which we've proven they aren't) then it shouldn't matter if they get nerfed. If every wizard used them, it would have less of a chance of getting nerfed, because it would prove there were no other options to be effective. I love you bro, but you're so far on the wrong side of this.


So if wizards were already at best in 4th place in terms of hunting then how are they still considered overpowered even after all of these nerfs?

We've had these conversations before...not necessarily you and I, but all players...

The fact that NOBODY can rank player classes in a clear 1-5 that everyone agrees with proves that they've done a pretty darn good job balancing things in GS4. Bards have 1030 and haste, rangers have 635, paladins have ungodly AS possibilities and 1630, wizards have huge bolt AS and can make those bolts hit really freaking hard with lores, on top of the fact that you get a comparable AS against a favorable DS against most creatures. Empaths have a dominant CS attack against living things, and can get a very high bolt AS against non-living things. They can also 3x PF, which no other pure can. We can go on and on.


Surely they dropped down at least 1 spot from all of these nerfs so at best they're in the middle of the pack. I'm not saying wizards are hurting or anything, I think all classes can hunt just fine.

I agree. See above.


I just disagree that they are so overpowered they needed these major reductions in power.

These changes don't affect my wizard a bit...I don't see any reduction in "power" at all.


What like, spell ups and enchanting? The former literally every class can do (different spell circles of course) and the latter requiring months of work to make any progress?

Well, yeah. Warriors can give spellups? I never knew. Only wizards can give wizard spells, and that is the set most sought. Only wizards can enchant, and while it does take a fair amount of time, it is still the only class that can do that. There is also general utility within the class, familiars, invisibility, wizard-specific alchemy...I get that you're trying to be as cynical as possible, but really man, it's not that bad.


I agree, wizards are just fine, not overpowered. If Simu's goal was to make wizards "just fine" then I say "job well done."

If Simu's goal was to put them on par with other classes then they failed miserably. If their goal was to make the class more fun or engaging then again they failed miserably.

IMO they're already "fun and engaging", and nothing Simu did would change that. They are still the only class that can do what they do. We can sit here and argue about the particulars, what class they are "more or less powerful than" in whatever scenario you want to place them, but that's really pretty silly.

[Velfi]

The punchline is supposed to be at the end, you don't just lead with it like that.

http://i.imgur.com/8P4FDcj.gif

[Tgo01]

I'm glad they boosted War Mages.

Boosted? BOOSTED?!

http://www.yeshallbeasgods.net/2fuyu/wp-content/uploads/1336619209534.jpg

[Whirlin]

I'll likely be hosting a discussion about this in a ventrillo server tomorrow. I'm going to invite Wyrom, Konacon, and some other GMs to join in the discussion. Before then, I'm planning on doing some math out, and identifying some key concerns.

I have not yet signed into the game and played around with it yet... but overall, it's better than the original proposal, which I do appreciate. I think that 535's effectiveness cap is incredibly low when it's meant as a defensive replacement. While the increased duration is nice, I don't think it compensates for the greatly reduced effects, especially at low RT.

519 has remained unchanged, which really took away our best CS attack... I know rapid fire 502 is the new hit... but meh.

Rapid fire... doesn't make sense to me, unless they're assuming they're all scripting... but... baby is crying, so eventually, I'll write more.

[Tgo01]

If they aren't necessary, (which we've proven they aren't) then it shouldn't matter if they get nerfed.

Of course it matters. Mstrike isn't necessary for warriors either but I'm sure they would be pretty pissed if Mstrike was nerfed for no apparent reason.


If every wizard used them, it would have less of a chance of getting nerfed, because it would prove there were no other options to be effective.

If a spell is used by all wizards then it proves the spell is either literally required to play a wizard (bolt spells for a bolting wizard for example) or proves it's just so overpowered that every wizard feels the need to use it. Let's put this another way; if Immolation was by and large the best damage dealing spell in the game then most likely every wizard would use it, the only reason for a wizard not to use it is if they wanted to hunt with weapons or they like making things difficult for themselves.


The fact that NOBODY can rank player classes in a clear 1-5 that everyone agrees with proves that they've done a pretty darn good job balancing things in GS4.

Yeah but first of all: only my opinion matters.

Second of all the vast majority of people who rank classes only play 1 character or they have like 1 capped character and every other character is level 20 or lower. In other words most people are highly biased. I mean shit, look at the wizard nerf threads on the officials, how many people are saying "Relax, everything is fine" and then go on to admit they have either never played a wizard or they will say something like "Well I played a wizard to level 13 20 years ago."


These changes don't affect my wizard a bit...I don't see any reduction in "power" at all.

How exactly does your wizard hunt? Is a he pure? If so why wouldn't you have rapid fire up and running anyways? The benefits of having it up far outweighed any possible negatives of always having it up.

The defensive aspect of Haste has been nerfed and while the offensive capability of Haste hasn't been nerfed per say it does require additional training to achieve the same effect as before.

Does your wizard not use haste or rapid fire?

[Soulance]

How has the defensive capability of Haste been nerfed? Doesnt the new Celery spell cover that? It speeds up times when things would normally give you RT. Or do you mean something else?

[Tgo01]

Doesnt the new Celery spell cover that?

I suppose I should have said the utility/defensive aspects of the new haste have been nerfed significantly since many tasks (such as foraging and lock picking) are no longer affected by haste. That's the utility nerf aspect of it all.

The defensive nerf is because you no longer get flat roundtime reductions and the base effect of haste is much worse.

Before haste gave a flat 1 second roundtime reduction plus a 75% roundtime reduction which was further augmented by air lore and major elemental spell ranks.

The new haste just has a flat 80% roundtime reduction which is further augmented by air lore and major elemental spell ranks.

So now you learn haste 29 major elemental spell ranks later and it's worse when you first learn it.

Also pre nerf with a mere 24 air lore ranks and 51 major elemental air lore ranks you could reduce your roundtime by 3 seconds plus 42%.

Now the same setup just reduces your roundtime by 34%.

[Soulance]

I only took it out for a test run once and actually liked not worrying about having to keep it up. Sure, there are scripts that would probably do/did the same, I just never used them. I guess I didn't pay much attention to the difference. But maybe there wasn't much of one because I have 60 air lore.

[Tgo01]

But maybe there wasn't much of one because I have 60 air lore.

Well since most attacks that induce roundtime usually only induce around 5-15 seconds of roundtime we are only talking a couple of seconds difference.

But assuming you have 60 air lore ranks and 60 major elemental spell ranks a 10 second roundtime with the new haste would give you 5 seconds of roundtime where the old haste would have given you 3 seconds. Those 2 seconds could be the difference between life and death for your character or it could mean absolutely nothing.

[Hoodtralfeck]

i really wish they would release the 925 update . i dont care about any these other updates , i dont even cast 515 or 519 when hunting

[Donquix]

Well since most attacks that induce roundtime usually only induce around 5-15 seconds of roundtime we are only talking a couple of seconds difference.

But assuming you have 60 air lore ranks and 60 major elemental spell ranks a 10 second roundtime with the new haste would give you 5 seconds of roundtime where the old haste would have given you 3 seconds. Those 2 seconds could be the difference between life and death for your character or it could mean absolutely nothing.

It also makes a considerable difference for bandits, where you can easily get ambushed and get multiple stacked roundtimes. 2-3 seconds per maneuver difference is easily 8-12 or more total roundtime to start.

can certainly still handle it but, very noticeable.

[Tgo01]

It also makes a considerable difference for bandits, where you can easily get ambushed and get multiple stacked roundtimes. 2-3 seconds per maneuver difference is easily 8-12 or more total roundtime to start.

can certainly still handle it but, very noticeable.

That's a good point, I didn't even consider bandit tasks, the roundtime difference there should certainly be noticeable.

[droit]

So are wizards inherently more squishy than clerics or other pures making it so much more necessary for them to reduce RT? I don't get it. You still get a fuck ton of RT reduction that no one else but bards get. Thats such a massive advantage.

[Tgo01]

So are wizards inherently more squishy than clerics or other pures making it so much more necessary for them to reduce RT? I don't get it. You still get a fuck ton of RT reduction that no one else but bards get. Thats such a massive advantage.

Well clerics get 319.

Empaths have Troll's Blood which doesn't deal directly with roundtime but it provides periodic healing as well as a chance to break stuns. Empaths also have the "Oh shit!" 1150 which again doesn't deal with roundtime but cures them of all wounds and regens health and provides a shield which reduces damage from critical attacks, all of which could come in handy if an empath finds themselves in trouble while in a long roundtime.

Sorcs don't have a whole lot to help with this sort of situation.

The complaint isn't so much that the new haste sucks, it doesn't. But it is a nerf and it doesn't really fit in a level 35 spell slot.

It's also not really a "fuck ton" of RT reduction unless you invest in air lore or major elemental spell ranks. When first learned at spell level 35 it's a 27% reduction in roundtime, which is nice but not game breaking or anything.

[Soulance]

So are wizards inherently more squishy than clerics or other pures making it so much more necessary for them to reduce RT? I don't get it. You still get a fuck ton of RT reduction that no one else but bards get. Thats such a massive advantage.
My Wizard is definitely a lot more squishy than my Cleric. My Cleric seemed to be able to stand up to a lot more abuse when something got through where, if my Wizard gets nicked, he's pretty much done for. The only thing that has saved him a few times aside from temporal reversion is being able to change the RT to a low value with 60 of Air Lore. A griffin screech is 20 seconds. In that amount of time, 10 Ithzir/constructs/griffins can easily flood the room.

About the only difference is fulls vs doubles armor-wise. Wizard can definitely hit harder with various spells whereas my Cleric is still a bit crippled with only being able to do warding spells. He's not trained in SA too well yet.

[droit]

Meh, you still have RT reduction. You lost a couple seconds with this update, but at least you're not gonna get stuck when your haste wears off right before something happens. Rapid fire got nerfed straight up, but it fucking deserved it. It's not the end of the world.

[SashaFierce]

Meh, you still have RT reduction. You lost a couple seconds with this update, but at least you're not gonna get stuck when your haste wears off right before something happens. Rapid fire got nerfed straight up, but it fucking deserved it. It's not the end of the world.

Would you say 616 needs nerfed?

[droit]

Would you say 616 needs nerfed?

No, because its not overly effective until you have about 13m experience, as opposed to being stupidly effective at level 15.

[Donquix]

No, because it follows the rules of the game, and it's not overly effective until you have about 13m experience, as opposed to being stupidly effective at level 15.

didn't stop the immolate nerf :D

[droit]

Then I'd make noise about that one, not the spell that deserved the nerf bat.

[SashaFierce]

Then I'd make noise about that one, not the spell that deserved the nerf bat.

That's the spell I was comparing, not 515.

If 616 is alright, than 519 should be alright. They both take significant experience to become very powerful spells.

519 seems to have taken a big hit while lots of other spells remain very powerful. 1106, 616, 720, 1030. If they nerf 519, are the other spells going to be reviewed? Wizards are one of the most played professions in the game and they gave no fucks about nerfing them. I would be scared if I played any of the professions with powerful spells.

[Warriorbird]

Boosted? BOOSTED?!

http://www.yeshallbeasgods.net/2fuyu/wp-content/uploads/1336619209534.jpg

Sorry dude. The Quickstrike/Celerity stuff is actually helpful for War Mages.

[Tgo01]

Sorry dude. The Quickstrike/Celerity stuff is actually helpful for War Mages.

I'm listening. Make your case.

[Warriorbird]

I'm listening. Make your case.

Just to make it clear... I'm not saying compared to pre nerf status. This is way better for War Mages than the crappy elemental lore review stuff though.

[Astray]

So does being offered a crutch after having your leg broken.

[Tgo01]

Just to make it clear... I'm not saying compared to pre nerf status. This is way better for War Mages than the crappy elemental lore review stuff though.

As far as celerity goes though wizards are in the exact same position as before. It's good that they didn't nerf haste as bad as they originally announced (I seem to recall a cool down was being thrown around) but this whole celerity/quick strike thing just keeps things the way they were for war mages.

Maybe that's what you meant though. If so carry on, and vote for Tgo01.

[Warriorbird]

So does being offered a crutch after having your leg broken.

Certainly. I think all of their nerfing is foolish and I reduced accounts over it. Reducing three Wizard training paths to two is slightly less terrible than three to one however.

[Astray]

So am I alone in thinking they are twisting your arm and trying to make you go Pure? War mage just doesn't feel like it's worthwhile anymore.

[Tgo01]

So am I alone in thinking they are twisting your arm and trying to make you go Pure? War mage just doesn't feel like it's worthwhile anymore.

Even before the nerfs I didn't think war Mage was worth it starting around level 70.

[Donquix]

So am I alone in thinking they are twisting your arm and trying to make you go Pure? War mage just doesn't feel like it's worthwhile anymore.

how so? basically nothing changed for war mages today. Plus they got the tremors changes, can dabble in bolting easier now that 513 doesn't nerf their AS, and are getting the enhancements to 902/411 that can be cast on enchanted weapons.

[Astray]

Even before the nerfs I didn't think war Mage was worth it starting around level 70.

They are way fun in the lower levels and from I heard, you could do War Mage till the 80's or so. Then fall back to bolting.


basically nothing changed for war mages today.

Really? So 506 is still the old school haste and works with combat? Sweet, glad I didn't just imagine that Simu fucked up the primary spell for wizards who swung. Oh and that War mages now need Stamina or Celerity with air lore ranks to swing effectively without RT crashing.

Phew! I was worried there for a second.

[subzero]

Sweet, glad I didn't just imagine that Simu fucked up the primary spell for wizards who swung. Oh and that War mages now need Stamina or Celerity with air lore ranks to swing effectively without RT crashing.

Phew! I was worried there for a second.

So... war mages didn't have 506 with air lore before? I could have sworn that was always the plan.

[m444w]

Sure, Rapidfire was broken and haste was very powerful, in a realm of otherwise unimpressive Wizard tricks (I have a level 70 wizard that I played from 0-70).

They could have fixed 80% of the real damage by making mana flaring runestaves not work when a wizard was using Rapidfire, because that was the real bug (unlimited mana when rapid fire hunting with 901 if you had a good one).

Nerfing wizards was a waste of precious dev time, and a flagrant disregard of the engagement of the average player.

There are any number of feature additions that would have been a better utilization, from truly fleshing out spell lists, fixing stamina costs, or actually creating systems that would add value to a player's experience.

You make a game more fun before you take fun away.

[Donquix]

They are way fun in the lower levels and from I heard, you could do War Mage till the 80's or so. Then fall back to bolting.



Really? So 506 is still the old school haste and works with combat? Sweet, glad I didn't just imagine that Simu fucked up the primary spell for wizards who swung. Oh and that War mages now need Stamina or Celerity with air lore ranks to swing effectively without RT crashing.

Phew! I was worried there for a second.

You were already getting at least 24 air lore as warmage, or should have been. With the new change you can have 0 stamina cost at around ~50 ranks for a claidh. You can get the cost exceptionally low (like 8) much sooner. You're not losing much by needing some extra air lore.

The percent redux part of the formula caps out at 60 MJE ranks, capped at level. With that number in mind you need, i believe, 48 ELA for a 7 second weapon (maul), and 54 ELA for an 8 second weapon (claidh) to get 0 cost quickstrikes. Assuming you were already at 5 second swings. And it is a sliding scale so you can swing with super low cost in that range (which yes, adds up as a warmage, obviously), or swing free slightly slower (2-3 seconds)

For warmages in the very specific mid twenties to 50 level range, you might kind have been affected.

In exchange for that at higher levels you now get all the other benefits outlined above, plus since you're probably maxing ELE if you're playing a swinging warmage post 50 to squeeze out more AS from 509 you get all the ELE defensive bonuses. Kinda shitty as they may be, still a net gain. Side note, the needing 30 extra ELA lore is only -2 AS at cap or so.

Not a big change for warmages. That mid level range is lol anyway for a warmage. Took a slight hit in the level range where the spec is most OP, and status quo + a few neat new bonuses after.

[Astray]

So... war mages didn't have 506 with air lore before? I could have sworn that was always the plan.

It wasn't priority, to be honest. You didn't have to worry about losing Stamina and Mana in order to hunt effectively or even quickly.

[subzero]

It wasn't priority, to be honest. You didn't have to worry about losing Stamina and Mana in order to hunt effectively or even quickly.

I think you probably went off the beaten path a bit if you weren't shooting for 24 air pretty much asap. As far as stamina goes, I can't recall how that progressed as I leveled and haven't kept up with the numbers being thrown around with these changes, but it's not like you were spending it on anything else. While it might be a limitation for lower level mages, it obviously can be eliminated later on.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have certain things you need to work up to rather than having your character have all he needs by level 30. If it takes a war mage to level 50+ before he can really open up the stamina-free blitzkrieg, so what? I've got to believe you're still in better shape than some other pures. You aren't going to see sorcerers 'shine' and obliterate things with ease until well past that point; until mid 60s-70ish, it's 702 plinko. Empaths take a while as well, considering they're stuck with 1101 until they have the mana to rely on 1106.

Sure, things changed some. Lower level war mages aren't 100% OP swinging claidhs and mauls all day long with a 1sec RT (and let's be honest. How many times do you have to hit the things you're hunting at that level? Is there really a lot of danger involved if you don't swing at 1sec? Sure, it's nice to smash something, loot, and move on in 1.5 seconds or so, but it was so ridiculous I literally sat around chuckling at the screen as I ran around owning shit with my mage). They can reach that level again, though. It's just not going to happen when you're in the 30s or probably 40s.

[SashaFierce]

The 506 changes were not as bad as they could have been. The original changes were scrapped and what we have is far more generous than what we were going to get. You have to train more EL:A now, but that's the worst part, and unless you wanted spell aiming, it can be done. It is more difficult at lower levels, I won't deny that, but at least we don't have that cooldown!

I feel bad for people who relied on 519. I think the crit/base damage needs to be increased. The few posts I saw of it in action were lackluster for a level 19 spell.

I don't mind the 1s RT on 515 per cast. The part I have a problem with is the cooldown and the extra mana cost if you want to use it during the cooldown. If they increased the duration to maybe 3 minutes, I think it would be alright. The short duration with the long cooldown is not fun.

535 isn't too bad either. 100 MjE/100EL:A or 150MjE/50EL:A for max RT reduction. Most people overtrained 500's anyway for 519. You're losing out on EL:F for 519 but that would be alright if they increased the base damage of the spell.

As an example, I went from 20/9s griffin screech to 20/11s. That will become 20/8s fully trained. (This seems to be 1s more than a previous 2x EL:A build)

[Methais]

You're talking to someone who has played since 1990, had one wizard over level 100 before there was a level cap, and now has three wizards total...

That means nothing, considering that 160 in GS3 was the equivalent of 100 in GS4. 100 in GS3 is probably like being 70 in GS4. And things like Immolate didn't exist. Neither did places like the Scatter.


Over all, I would have to agree. Empaths are pretty boss right now...notice the part at the end of my last post suggesting they should be next on the nerf-block.

I never understood this nerf everything = fun logic. Why keep nerfing everybody and making shit less fun, instead of buffing the classes that aren't up to par with the top classes? When you take something away from a class without giving them something to make for it and they come out worse than they are before, people are going to have less fun. This applies to any class.

You can also cap playing a non-ambushing sword and board build. According to your logic, that means everything else should be nerfed because sword & board is fine since it can reach cap.


I will admit that I have not hunted in capped areas with my wizard since GS3, because I have not had a "capped" wizard since then.

Then you really don't know wtf you're talking about. Level 100 in GS3 (which was a 160 level game) and level 70 in GS4 mean shit.


I have, however, hunted with a bolting sorcerer in capped areas, and I know enough about mechanics to be safe in my assumption that my wizard would do it better.

I used to watch Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, therefore I know what it's like to be Puerto Rican.


If every wizard used them, it would have less of a chance of getting nerfed, because it would prove there were no other options to be effective. I love you bro, but you're so far on the wrong side of this.

Because that's totally how it went for sorcerers back in the day with 702 and 719.


These changes don't affect my wizard a bit...I don't see any reduction in "power" at all.

This is because...


I will admit that I have not hunted in capped areas with my wizard since GS3, because I have not had a "capped" wizard since then.

http://i.imgur.com/bnMGL.gif

[Fallen]

The officials are a bit depressing ATM. A lot of confusion over the new changes and a few people outright leaving. Given the current state of the game, I don't think these nerfs were a good idea.

Who's going to go, "Gee, now that wizards are balanced I can't wait to resubscribe to Gemstone!"

[Methais]

The officials are a bit depressing ATM. A lot of confusion over the new changes and a few people outright leaving. Given the current state of the game, I don't think these nerfs were a good idea.

Who's going to go, "Gee, now that wizards are balanced I can't wait to resubscribe to Gemstone!"

It's not like they shouldn't have seen it coming after the HSN uproar, even though they're probably sitting there right now all like "I don't understand, why are people so mad?"

[Warriorbird]

Sure, Rapidfire was broken and haste was very powerful, in a realm of otherwise unimpressive Wizard tricks (I have a level 70 wizard that I played from 0-70).

They could have fixed 80% of the real damage by making mana flaring runestaves not work when a wizard was using Rapidfire, because that was the real bug (unlimited mana when rapid fire hunting with 901 if you had a good one).

Nerfing wizards was a waste of precious dev time, and a flagrant disregard of the engagement of the average player.

There are any number of feature additions that would have been a better utilization, from truly fleshing out spell lists, fixing stamina costs, or actually creating systems that would add value to a player's experience.

You make a game more fun before you take fun away.

Must protect the microtransactions!

[time4fun]

The officials are a bit depressing ATM. A lot of confusion over the new changes and a few people outright leaving. Given the current state of the game, I don't think these nerfs were a good idea.

Who's going to go, "Gee, now that wizards are balanced I can't wait to resubscribe to Gemstone!"

Oh please. Most of the people in an uproar (and there are only a few) are the same ones as last time. And I swear half of them said they were quitting last time.

[Methais]

Oh please. Most of the people in an uproar (and there are only a few) are the same ones as last time. And I swear half of them said they were quitting last time.

Most people don't post on the officials at all, and a lot of people aren't even aware of the nerfs yet, being that they're not even a day old.

Clearly the people on the officials that are posting about it are the only ones who are pissed off.

[Fallen]

Oh please. Most of the people in an uproar (and there are only a few) are the same ones as last time. And I swear half of them said they were quitting last time.

You ...do realize they delayed the nerfs until just now, right? Are you Sven from the officials?

[Whirlin]

So... a couple thoughts:

506: This is much better than the original proposals... but I'm really bothered by the order of operations within the equation. Utilizing the percentage reduction outside of the air lore effects makes it so that if you don't have 1 air lore rank per stamina drain by quickstrike, and makes MjE fairly worthwhile from a warmage perspective for 506 RT reduction. This would normally not be a big deal, but since attacking under the effects of 506 automatically truncate RT to the max of the stamina loss, it means that a % reduction will always reduce it to a value, never 0... thus making the MjE reduction superfluous. Unless you're running a script that auto-detects 506 and automatically sets QUICKSTRIKE after EVERY ATTACK... which seems like excessive amounts of spam.

I REALLY like that they put a group-cast option into the spell though. That was great addition.

515: I REALLY have a problem with the implementation of this... and not because of the cooldown nonsense... but just with the 0-1 RT mechanics... I don't see how this is feasible to react and utilize completely. Especially since the change also removed automatic re-preparation. I mean, sure, you can INCANT the spells, but wouldn't that also result in eventually casting upon yourself with no targets in the room (shows how much I use incant). The random procs of 0 RT would still result in time to issue the additional commands, and likely realistically result in a .5s RT. Unless Simu is now promoting using scripts for all of our combat needs.
I would have much rather seen a double-cast mechanic instead of the 0s proc, or something interesting like that. Having the small variations in RT just really doesn't make sense.
While the lack of spell prep can make certain combos more fun (drench, shock, whatever)... The problem is that they're kind of pigeon holing wizards into a single lore based on the super high seed values across the board.


519: This is slightly more powerful than the original proposed nerf... however, without having a detailed discussion with Estild about the CS damage round breakdowns, and how they compare with other spells such as 719, it's incredibly difficult to determine the overall impacts of the change. I understand why the Hard RT of the target was reduced, but I think wizards still require a real endgame CS attack in order to compensate for how much bolts really suck.

Channel Bolts change: This is, on the surface, a good change... However, when you evaluate the impacts of a straight 7.7% accuracy for all body parts, as was explained on the officials, many spells do not see an overall chance of hitting a critical spot increase. The other change of the channel bolt mechanics is increasing the critical randomization floor, which is the real benefit of the channeled bolts. I would have still much rather been able to truly AIM the bolts... being able to aim for the legs/eyes/etc as necessary would have really opened up and made hunting with bolts a lot more dynamic, and feel a lot more like every other AS resolved attack.
So, channeling would be the best course of actions for something like a second bolt, when you have a large AS advantage... Open with a Tonis bolt, knock the target down, and when you have a large AS bonus, finish with a Channel.
What this doesn't address is the growth of bolt AS post-cap.

535: I wish Finros would be a little more clear... 40% max potency is not the same as a 40% post-calculation RT floor. Even at 40% potential RT post-effects, it still isn't quite as nice as the previous haste. But, it's got not needing to recast it all the time going for it... so that's nice. The problem is that a flat RT reduction tends to be more effective when most RTs are less than 10s. The other problem is potential dispelling and reapplication in teh field.. but the recent mana spellup expansion of uses should make up for that. I dunno.. this is a clear nerf, but it's still better than what was previously proposed.

[Methais]

These are my average results now, 178 fire lore/24 air:

>incant 519

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a fallen crusader.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a fallen crusader suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +557 - TD: +410 + CvA: -2 + d100: +65 == +210
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a fallen crusader and he bursts into flame!
The elemental energy surrounding you amplifies the attack!
... 45 points of damage!
Tremendous strike!
Vapor rushes from the neck following the blow!
... 50 points of damage!
Brutal assault cuts a swath through the torso!
Fortunately for the fallen crusader, it doesn't need lungs.
... 10 points of damage!
Weak attack slips silently through the fallen crusader's fingers, stirring the breeze.
... 5 points of damage!
Weak blow leaves a brief imprint on the fallen crusader's chest!

The flames around a fallen crusader continue to burn!

Necrotic energy from your lor runestaff overflows into you!

look
You feel energized!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

That's probably even the best result I've gotten so far today. Almost every cast, the last 2 hits have done trash damage like in this clip.

This damage isn't worth 19 mana, and the EVOKE version of this garbage spell needs to either have its mana cost lowered or have the damage not be weakened.

A 19 mana disabler that does trash damage is trash.

Investing in tons of fire lore and getting an extra 5-15 damage on our most expensive attack spell is garbage.

So far, pure wizards are no longer fun to play at cap at all, even moreso when dealing with things that don't crit.

Good job Simu. Nerfs for the sake of nerfing are awesome.

515 change is equally retarded. 1 second minimum RT when we're already limited by mana is stupid enough. If the problem was people spamming rapid 901, then address rapid 901 and leave the rest alone.

Throwing a cooldown on top of it is going full retard, especially considering that war mages can attack with 1 second RT with no cooldown ever, and they're supposed to be the mutant build.

It's funny, in a how bad can Simu fail sense, that the only ones who got a net gain out of all of this bullshit is...every other class in the game (quickstrike).

[time4fun]

You ...do realize they delayed the nerfs until just now, right? Are you Sven from the officials?

I don't post on the officials. I've just followed in amusement.

[Tgo01]

Oh please. Most of the people in an uproar (and there are only a few) are the same ones as last time. And I swear half of them said they were quitting last time.

I'm still waiting for you to explain why you would kill for 535 and say you would trade 319 for 535. You sure have a lot of snarky comments to throw around here without posting anything with substance.

[time4fun]

These are my average results now, 178 fire lore/24 air:

>incant 519

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a fallen crusader.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a fallen crusader suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +557 - TD: +410 + CvA: -2 + d100: +65 == +210
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a fallen crusader and he bursts into flame!
The elemental energy surrounding you amplifies the attack!
... 45 points of damage!
Tremendous strike!
Vapor rushes from the neck following the blow!
... 50 points of damage!
Brutal assault cuts a swath through the torso!
Fortunately for the fallen crusader, it doesn't need lungs.
... 10 points of damage!
Weak attack slips silently through the fallen crusader's fingers, stirring the breeze.
... 5 points of damage!
Weak blow leaves a brief imprint on the fallen crusader's chest!

The flames around a fallen crusader continue to burn!

Necrotic energy from your lor runestaff overflows into you!

look
You feel energized!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

That's probably even the best result I've gotten so far today. Almost every cast, the last 2 hits have done trash damage like in this clip.

This damage isn't worth 19 mana, and the EVOKE version of this garbage spell needs to either have its mana cost lowered or have the damage not be weakened.

A 19 mana disabler that does trash damage is trash.

Investing in tons of fire lore and getting an extra 5-15 damage on our most expensive attack spell is garbage.

So far, pure wizards are no longer fun to play at cap at all, even moreso when dealing with things that don't crit.

Good job Simu. Nerfs for the sake of nerfing are awesome.

515 change is equally retarded. 1 second minimum RT when we're already limited by mana is stupid enough. If the problem was people spamming rapid 901, then address rapid 901 and leave the rest alone.

Throwing a cooldown on top of it is going full retard, especially considering that war mages can attack with 1 second RT with no cooldown ever, and they're supposed to be the mutant build.

It's funny, in a how bad can Simu fail sense, that the only ones who got a net gain out of all of this bullshit is...every other class in the game (quickstrike).

It did a 45 damage hit to the neck. If that had been corporeal, it would've been dead.

[time4fun]

I'm still waiting for you to explain why you would kill for 535 and say you would trade 319 for 535. You sure have a lot of snarky comments to throw around here without posting anything with substance.

I would kill for anything that helps get me out of RT lock- since that's the biggest source of deaths for me

[Wrathbringer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y

[Tgo01]

I would kill for anything that helps get me out of RT lock- since that's the biggest source of deaths for me

Then surely you would trade 535 for 319 in a heartbeat. Please go on the official forums and demand this change take place since it's not fair for wizards to have this uberly powerful level 35 spell.

Let's just forget for one moment that the uses of 535 are severely limited. Yes, roundtimes from CMANs suck but not every critter uses them, whereas 319 is useful against literally every single critter in the game.

Let's also not forget that base 535 is pretty shitty. It's a 27% roundtime reduction, which is okay. But to make it actually good you would need to invest 200 ranks in major elemental ranks (which no one is going to do) or 200 ranks of air lore (which some people might do) or a combination of the two to equal 200. The last one is the most plausible but here is the kicker, the only reason people even got major elemental ranks was because of Immolation and that was just recently nerfed, but also because there was literally nothing else worthwhile to even get spell ranks into. Even then though we are talking a post cap goal or at least capped to even get 100 spell ranks of major elemental.

Then another 100 air lore ranks? Talk about severely pigeonholing a wizard training path, all for one spell.

So please, demand the GMs put 535 in the 335 spot. Heck, I'm in a good mood, I'll even consider putting 319 in the 935 spot. I don't mind admitting how completely fucking overpowered it is as a level 19 spell.

ETA: I just remembered that the reduction from major elemental ranks is capped by level so the only options are 200 air lore ranks or 100 major elemental and 100 air lore ranks. Again, totally pigeonholing how a wizard trains if they want to make this spell halfway decent and still worse than it was before.

[time4fun]

Anyone else want to tell him I don't play a cleric? Or should I?

[Enuch]

" would have still much rather been able to truly AIM the bolts... being able to aim for the legs/eyes/etc as necessary would have really opened up and made hunting with bolts a lot more dynamic, and feel a lot more like every other AS resolved attack."

Why this isn't a game mechanic across the board boggles my mind. Aiming is clearly a utilized mechanic it makes no sense that when I waggle my fingers, I would blindly close my eyes and throw whatever nonsense came out of my hand EVERY time. Now I also would deal with them implementing this to include having to utilize ambush and perception as both skills would make sense to aiming and open aiming etc and why should it be different for casters vs ranged vs ambushers. I know the ambush training would stink, but I think open aiming is utilized through perception versus both (I think even CM helps but I could be blatantly fabricating information), which any solid character is at least 1x in perception anyhow for manu stuff.

[Tgo01]

Anyone else want to tell him I don't play a cleric? Or should I?

You can make the demands anyways. Heck I'll take 1619 over 535 in its current spell slot.

[Warriorbird]

" would have still much rather been able to truly AIM the bolts... being able to aim for the legs/eyes/etc as necessary would have really opened up and made hunting with bolts a lot more dynamic, and feel a lot more like every other AS resolved attack."

Why this isn't a game mechanic across the board boggles my mind. Aiming is clearly a utilized mechanic it makes no sense that when I waggle my fingers, I would blindly close my eyes and throw whatever nonsense came out of my hand EVERY time. Now I also would deal with them implementing this to include having to utilize ambush and perception as both skills would make sense to aiming and open aiming etc and why should it be different for casters vs ranged vs ambushers. I know the ambush training would stink, but I think open aiming is utilized through perception versus both (I think even CM helps but I could be blatantly fabricating information), which any solid character is at least 1x in perception anyhow for manu stuff.

It's very puzzling. Aimed bolts are pretty much the best bit of Warrior Mages in DR.

[SashaFierce]

The more I think about 519, the more I wonder if they are going to nerf other spells.

711 is a guaranteed kill for 33 mana AND the creature is RT locked.

[Tgo01]

711 is a guaranteed kill for 33 mana AND the creature is RT locked.

That's partly why I think my sorc with ~4 million less experience than my wizard kicks ass. Pain is like the most awesome spell in the entire game.

[Kronius]

The more I think about 519, the more I wonder if they are going to nerf other spells.

711 is a guaranteed kill for 33 mana AND the creature is RT locked.

I wouldn't go so far as say guaranteed. Dependent on a warding end-roll on 3 consecutive casts that can be mitigated by necro lore.

[Tgo01]

I wouldn't go so far as say guaranteed. Dependent on a warding end-roll on 3 consecutive casts that can be mitigated by necro lore.

True it's not guaranteed, but pretty good chance. Of course it also requires being singled in necromancy lore to achieve this.

I still think Pain is great though.

[Soulance]

I'm still waiting for you to explain why you would kill for 535 and say you would trade 319 for 535. You sure have a lot of snarky comments to throw around here without posting anything with substance.
Don't you dare get rid of my 319! Bad enough they changed it from blocking everything to only the first strike.

[Tgo01]

Don't you dare get rid of my 319! Bad enough they changed it from blocking everything to only the first strike.

Suffer!!!!

[Whirlin]

Let's also not forget that base 535 is pretty shitty. It's a 27% roundtime reduction, which is okay. But to make it actually good you would need to invest 200 ranks in major elemental ranks (which no one is going to do)

Correction here...
20% base value
100 ranks of MjE is another 20% reduction in RT.
100 ranks of Air lore is another 20% reduction in RT.
5 ranks of MjE = 1%, 5 ranks of Air Lore = 1%
Limit of 60% reduction to 40% of base RT.

[Tgo01]

Correction here...
20% base value

Every 5 ranks of major elemental gives 1% RT reduction, considering you learn the spell at 35 that should give you an extra 7%, unless it's every 5 ranks above 35 major spell ranks, in which case this spell is even worse than I thought.

[Wrathbringer]

I don't want to wade through the officials to tune in unless people are rage quitting over this. Anyone rage quitting yet? If so, /popcorn. Skatemom hopefully. Or Throgg. Although Throgg is at least entertaining.

[Whirlin]

Every 5 ranks of major elemental gives 1% RT reduction, considering you learn the spell at 35 that should give you an extra 7%, unless it's every 5 ranks above 35 major spell ranks, in which case this spell is even worse than I thought.
True, although no indication of only 35+

[Methais]

It did a 45 damage hit to the neck. If that had been corporeal, it would've been dead.

I'm looking at damage per cast.

Here, this should settle it:

Here's some more of both rift crawler and crusaders. These are all consecutive casts and not cherry picked. The only thing edited out was the 1 instant kill I got.

You gesture at a fallen crusader.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a fallen crusader suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +557 - TD: +405 + CvA: -2 + d100: +8 == +158
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a fallen crusader and he bursts into flame!
... 50 points of damage!
Hard strike to the abdomen.
Ethereal entrails seem to spill from the fallen crusader's mangled substance,
vanishing into misty tendrils as they strike the ground.
... 35 points of damage!
Painful attack flays the leg from thigh to calf.
New skin lies, snakelike, beneath the old.
It is knocked to the ground!
... 15 points of damage!
Hit passes right through the midsection.
Nothing hurts like an empty stomach.
... 5 points of damage!
Quick strike to the face!
Just nicked an eyelid!

The flames around a fallen crusader continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
>

You gesture at a fallen crusader.
CS: +557 - TD: +405 + CvA: -2 + d100: +77 == +227
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a fallen crusader and he bursts into flame!
... 40 points of damage!
Massive blow obliterates the right knee.
The fallen crusader falters as a sickly light flows freely down its leg.
It is knocked to the ground!
... 50 points of damage!
Body swirls violently from a strong hit to the back.
Neat effect!
... 10 points of damage!
Direct assault cleaves straight through the breastbone.
Alas, it mends before you can make a wish.
... 5 points of damage!
Misjudged timing.
You barely catch the fallen crusader in the back!

The flames around a fallen crusader continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
>
You gesture at a fallen crusader.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a fallen crusader suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +557 - TD: +405 + CvA: -2 + d100: +31 == +181
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a fallen crusader and he bursts into flame!
... 40 points of damage!
Massive blow obliterates the right knee.
The fallen crusader falters as a sickly light flows freely down its leg.
It is knocked to the ground!
... 60 points of damage!
Mighty blow rips through the fallen crusader's chest, causing it to pause as it reforms.
... 20 points of damage!
Hard shot to the fallen crusader's back sends it drifting forward!
... 5 points of damage!
Misjudged timing.
You barely catch the fallen crusader in the back!

The flames around a fallen crusader continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 0 Seconds.
>


You gesture at a fallen crusader.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a fallen crusader suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +557 - TD: +405 + CvA: -2 + d100: +6 == +156
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a fallen crusader and he bursts into flame!
... 25 points of damage!
Quick strike to the left leg!
The fallen crusader makes no bones about it.
... 30 points of damage!
Hard strike shatters arm into vapor.
The arm reforms before your eyes!
... 20 points of damage!
Smash to the chest!
Good thing there were no ribs there to shatter.
... 10 points of damage!
Flashy attack passes through the side of the neck.
Ethereal fluids spray forth and quickly vanish into vapor!

The flames around a fallen crusader continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.


Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a fallen crusader.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a fallen crusader suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +557 - TD: +405 + CvA: -2 + d100: +16 == +166
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a fallen crusader and he bursts into flame!
... 30 points of damage!
Strong strike splits the belly open, revealing ghostly organs.
Haggis anyone?
... 30 points of damage!
The fallen crusader's hand explodes from the brutal strike!
Trails of ether spurt high into the air in all directions.
... 15 points of damage!
Quick strike rips left arm open!
To your dismay it quickly closes on its own.
... 10 points of damage!
Nasty strike to the left eye causes it to dim a moment.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the fallen crusader's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The fallen crusader clutches at the air as his incorporeal form begins to dissipate.
The very powerful look leaves a fallen crusader.
The white light leaves a fallen crusader.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a fallen crusader.
The warm glow fades from around a fallen crusader.
The deep blue glow leaves a fallen crusader.
The powerful look leaves a fallen crusader.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting a fallen crusader begins to falter, then completely fades away.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.

You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
CS: +557 - TD: +439 + CvA: +25 + d100: +31 == +174
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame!
... 30 points of damage!
Nasty burns to back. Won't be sleeping on that for awhile.
The rift crawler is stunned!
... 40 points of damage!
Flames cook an enormous rift crawler's back. Looks about medium well.
... 20 points of damage!
Burst of flames to abdomen toasts skin nicely.
... 10 points of damage!

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn!

Your runestaff resonates with an extremely high-pitched sound and causes your skin and muscles to harden!

Cast Roundtime 0 Seconds.

Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
CS: +557 - TD: +439 + CvA: +25 + d100: +39 == +182
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame!
... 30 points of damage!
look cra
The rift crawler is stunned!
... 40 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!
Minor burns to abdomen. Looks painful.
... 10 points of damage!

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.

You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
CS: +557 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +75 == +206
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame!
... 40 points of damage!
The rift crawler is stunned!
... 40 points of damage!
Flames cook an enormous rift crawler's abdomen. Looks about medium well.
... 20 points of damage!
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to back. Looks uncomfortable.

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
Immolation results against ENORMOUS RIFT CRAWLER:
End Roll: 206
Rank 6 Ab Crit.
Rank 1 Back Crit.
Total Casts: 1526
Instant Death Casts: 355 (23.263%)
Total Death Crits (including instant death casts): 466 (30.537%)
Total Damage (this cast): 105
Total Damage (all casts): 146515 (96 average per cast)

An enormous rift crawler shakes off the stun.
>
incant 519
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
CS: +557 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +2 == +133
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame!
... 25 points of damage!
The rift crawler is stunned!
... 25 points of damage!
Burst of flames to back fries shoulder blades. Youch!
... 15 points of damage!
... 5 points of damage!

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>

Immolation results against ENORMOUS RIFT CRAWLER:
End Roll: 133
Rank 3 Back Crit.
Total Casts: 1527
Instant Death Casts: 355 (23.248%)
Total Death Crits (including instant death casts): 466 (30.517%)
Total Damage (this cast): 70
Total Damage (all casts): 146585 (95 average per cast)

incant 519
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
CS: +557 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +96 == +227
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame!
... 50 points of damage!
A large patch of flesh is seared off an enormous rift crawler's back.
... 40 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>

Immolation results against ENORMOUS RIFT CRAWLER:
End Roll: 227
Rank 7 Back Crit.
Total Casts: 1528
Instant Death Casts: 355 (23.233%)
Total Death Crits (including instant death casts): 466 (30.497%)
Total Damage (this cast): 110
Total Damage (all casts): 146695 (96 average per cast)

Your senses are no longer as sharp.
>
An enormous rift crawler shakes off the stun.
>
incant 519
>
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
CS: +557 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +54 == +185
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame!
... 30 points of damage!
The rift crawler is stunned!
... 30 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!
... 5 points of damage!

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>

Immolation results against ENORMOUS RIFT CRAWLER:
End Roll: 185
Total Casts: 1529
Instant Death Casts: 355 (23.218%)
Total Death Crits (including instant death casts): 466 (30.477%)
Total Damage (this cast): 75
Total Damage (all casts): 146770 (95 average per cast)

incant 519
Wait 1 sec.
>
incant 519
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
CS: +557 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +40 == +171
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame!
... 35 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
As the rift crawler dies, the beast's massive body curls in on itself, convulses once, and stills.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.






I'm at work right now and can't pull up any logs of pre-nerf immolate on plane 4, which would take me forever to dig up anyway, but here's a bunch of examples from 2006 with similar endrolls against both corporeal and non-corporeal stuff. I haven't tried Nelemar yet since these trash nerfs went in yesterday, mainly because I was enjoying not having to be stuck on Teras, but it should illustrate the difference regardless, since nothing in this post is weak or strong vs. fire as far as I'm aware:

These are with 202 fire lore, but even after I dropped down to 178 the results weren't really any different. Defenders are non-corporeal, everything else is normal.

Taken from http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?22624-Fire-Lore-Appreciation&p=545688#post545688

You gesture at a triton executioner.
CS: +524 - TD: +393 + CvA: +20 + d100: +72 == +223
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton executioner and he bursts into flame!
... 70 points of damage!
Flame burns through a triton executioner's abdomen. Greasy smoke billows forth.
The triton executioner collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
CS: +524 - TD: +400 + CvA: +20 + d100: +65 == +209
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a spectral triton defender and she bursts into flame!
... 25 points of damage!
Massive blow strikes the triton defender and drives it back!
Good thing those ribs aren't made of bone.
... 35 points of damage!
Vicious blow to neck might have been fatal a few centuries ago.
... 30 points of damage!
Strong hit to the chest!
Tendrils of mist explode as the strike passes right through.
... 60 points of damage!
Mighty blow rips through the triton defender's chest, causing it to pause as it reforms.
... 40 points of damage!
A massive blow to the left shoulder hoists the triton defender high into the air.
It hangs there a moment, suspended, before falling forward.

The flames around a spectral triton defender continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
CS: +534 - TD: +400 + CvA: +25 + d100: +70 == +229
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a spectral triton defender and he bursts into flame!
... 50 points of damage!
Hard strike to the abdomen.
Ethereal entrails seem to spill from the triton defender's mangled substance,
vanishing into misty tendrils as they strike the ground.
... 50 points of damage!
Brutal assault cuts a swath through the torso!
Fortunately for the triton defender, it doesn't need lungs.
... 30 points of damage!
Strong strike splits the belly open, revealing ghostly organs.
Haggis anyone?
... 50 points of damage!
Strong attack separates head from shoulders.
Head disappears in the breeze as a new one forms on the triton defender's shoulders!
... 70 points of damage!
Massive strike to the chest crashes through the triton defender's back in a cloud of vapor.
Slowly, the triton defender reforms its torso.

The flames around a spectral triton defender continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a triton radical.
CS: +534 - TD: +438 + CvA: +25 + d100: +22 == +143
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton radical and he bursts into flame!
... 25 points of damage!
Flames incinerate left arm to the bone. Not a pleasant sight.
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames to back fries shoulder blades. Youch!
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to chest make you wish you never heard of heartburn.
... 30 points of damage!
Extreme heat causes a triton radical's left arm to expand and snap. That must hurt!
... 30 points of damage!
Extreme heat causes a triton radical's right arm to expand and snap. That must hurt!

The flames around a triton radical continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
CS: +534 - TD: +400 + CvA: +25 + d100: +4 == +163
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a spectral triton defender and she bursts into flame!
... 15 points of damage!
Quick strike rips right arm open!
To your dismay it quickly closes on its own.
... 25 points of damage!
Deft blow to the spine cuts along the ethereal bones.
Fillet of soul?
... 25 points of damage!
Deft blow to the spine cuts along the ethereal bones.
Fillet of soul?
... 30 points of damage!
The triton defender wails eerily as your blow passes through its vocal cords.
... 30 points of damage!
Smash to the cheek deforms right eye socket.
Vapor swirls as the ethereal bones reform.

The flames around a spectral triton defender continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


You gesture at a siren.
CS: +534 - TD: +425 + CvA: +20 + d100: +37 == +166
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a siren and she bursts into flame!
... 50 points of damage!
A large patch of flesh is seared off a siren's back.
The siren is stunned!
... 50 points of damage!
Skin and some muscle burnt off chest.
... 30 points of damage!
It is knocked to the ground!
... 30 points of damage!
Flames cook a siren's chest. Looks about medium well.
The siren gives a plaintive wail before she slumps to her side and dies.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a siren.
The bright luminescence fades from around a siren.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a siren.
CS: +534 - TD: +430 + CvA: +20 + d100: +82 == +206
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a siren and she bursts into flame!
... 50 points of damage!
Skin and some muscle burnt off chest.
The siren is stunned!
... 45 points of damage!
Unbelievable heat melts a siren's hand down to the wrist.
... 40 points of damage!
Head reduced to a charred stump.
The siren gives a plaintive wail before she slumps to her side and dies.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a siren.
The bright luminescence fades from around a siren.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a siren.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a triton combatant.
CS: +534 - TD: +390 + CvA: +20 + d100: +68 == +232
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and she bursts into flame!
... 35 points of damage!
a triton combatant takes a breath of super-heated air and expires gasping.
The triton combatant collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a triton radical.
CS: +534 - TD: +428 + CvA: +25 + d100: +31 == +162
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton radical and he bursts into flame!
... 30 points of damage!
Flames cook a triton radical's chest. Looks about medium well.
... 35 points of damage!
Right leg horribly scorched. Won't be usable for weeks.
A triton radical falls to the ground grasping his mangled right leg!
... 30 points of damage!
Flames cook a triton radical's chest. Looks about medium well.
The triton radical gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on his face.
A white glow rushes away from a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton radical.
The brilliant aura fades away from a triton radical.
The very powerful look leaves a triton radical.
The white light leaves a triton radical.
The warm glow fades from around a triton radical.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
CS: +534 - TD: +410 + CvA: +25 + d100: +47 == +196
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a spectral triton defender and he bursts into flame!
... 60 points of damage!
Incredible strike to the triton defender's back smashes through the chest!
Too bad it melts back together.
... 35 points of damage!
Right arm ripped in half at elbow!
The fallen arm evaporates as a new one materializes.
... 25 points of damage!
The triton defender's head wavers as your attack passes right through it!
... 50 points of damage!
Brutal assault cuts a swath through the torso!
Fortunately for the triton defender, it doesn't need lungs.
... 25 points of damage!
Quick strike to the left leg!
The triton defender makes no bones about it.
It is knocked to the ground!

The flames around a spectral triton defender continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
CS: +534 - TD: +410 + CvA: +25 + d100: +78 == +227
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a spectral triton defender and he bursts into flame!
... 30 points of damage!
The triton defender's hand explodes from the brutal strike!
Trails of ether spurt high into the air in all directions.
... 30 points of damage!
Hard strike shatters arm into vapor.
The arm reforms before your eyes!
... 30 points of damage!
Hard strike shatters arm into vapor.
The arm reforms before your eyes!
... 35 points of damage!
Strong smash to the left hand!
The triton defender quails and sinks momentarily as its left hand reforms before your eyes.
The spectral form of the triton defender tenses in agony as he begins to dissolve from the bottom up!
A spectral triton defender seems slightly different.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a triton combatant.
CS: +534 - TD: +405 + CvA: +20 + d100: +25 == +174
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and she bursts into flame!
... 25 points of damage!
Flames incinerate right arm to the bone. Not a pleasant sight.
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left hand fries palm. Ouch!
... 25 points of damage!
Flames incinerate right arm to the bone. Not a pleasant sight.
The combatant's silvery blue trident falls to the ground.
... 40 points of damage!
Flame engulfs foe's left eye, setting it ablaze. Mercifully, death follows quickly.
The triton combatant gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on her face.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.



You gesture at a triton radical.
CS: +534 - TD: +440 + CvA: +25 + d100: +96 == +215
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton radical and she bursts into flame!
... 35 points of damage!
Flame sets a triton radical's head alight like a torch. Burned beyond recognition.
The triton radical collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring.
A white glow rushes away from a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton radical.
The brilliant aura fades away from a triton radical.
The very powerful look leaves a triton radical.
The white light leaves a triton radical.
A triton radical seems slightly different.
The warm glow fades from around a triton radical.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting a triton radical begins to falter, then completely fades away.
The guiding force leaves a triton radical.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a triton combatant.
CS: +534 - TD: +390 + CvA: +20 + d100: +44 == +208
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and she bursts into flame!
... 30 points of damage!
Flames cook a triton combatant's back. Looks about medium well.
... 25 points of damage!
Flames incinerate scalp completely and blacken skullcap. Not very fashionable.
... 50 points of damage!
Permanently debilitating burns across stomach.
... 30 points of damage!
Flames cook a triton combatant's chest. Looks about medium well.
... 40 points of damage!
The lower half of a triton combatant's right leg is almost completely burned away.
A triton combatant falls to the ground grasping her mangled right leg!

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.



You gesture at a triton combatant.
CS: +524 - TD: +390 + CvA: +25 + d100: +51 == +210
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and he bursts into flame!
... 30 points of damage!
Flames cook a triton combatant's chest. Looks about medium well.
... 35 points of damage!
Right arm scorched so bad it might as well be gone.
The combatant's silvery blue trident falls to the ground.
... 30 points of damage!
Flames cook a triton combatant's back. Looks about medium well.
... 30 points of damage!
Flames cook a triton combatant's chest. Looks about medium well.
The triton combatant gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on his face.
The warm glow fades from around a triton combatant.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


You gesture at a triton radical.
CS: +534 - TD: +440 + CvA: +25 + d100: +3 == +122
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton radical and she bursts into flame!
... 10 points of damage!
Burst of flames to back toasts skin nicely.
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left arm toasts skin to elbows.
... 25 points of damage!
Abdomen bursts into flames. Would be funny without the blood.
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right leg blackens kneecap.

The flames around a triton radical continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


Immolate simply isn't worth the mana cost even with heavy fire lore. We have plenty of other disablers that are better and more efficient than evoke immolate, the newly nerfed damage output for cast/incant immolate isn't worth its mana cost either without the disabler, and no sane wizard is going to stand in offensive locked in a hard 3 second RT at cap, so I'm not even going to acknowledge CHANNEL.

I could deal with the Immolate nerf if the disabler was still built into the normal version, and not this trash where you have to evoke it for reduced damage for the same mana cost.

The extra damage cycles from fire lore do pathetic damage too, making it not even worth having fire lore.

I might be remembering wrong, but didn't a NIR post something during the whole HSN fiasco about realizing that a spell review is really what wizards are in need of? Which I thought was at least part of the reason why these 506/515/519 nerfs were put on hold. With the other part being even staff realizing what crap the nerfs were gonna be.

[Tgo01]

Immolate looks pretty shitty. I'd rather do Wither/1115 + 240 to kill things like nothing.

Immolate sucks now, especially with a nerfed Rapid Fire. Long live Empaths! And bards! And rangers! And sorcs! And since apparently the only thing Paladins can possibly die to is long RTs from CMANs (which is pretty amazing considering they can double in PT and CM) then long live Paladins!

The king of mediocrity is dead! Maybe now is the time for Monk's to shine and they can shoot for that title.

[Astray]

Immolate looks pretty shitty. I'd rather do Wither/1115 + 240 to kill things like nothing.

Immolate sucks now, especially with a nerfed Rapid Fire. Long live Empaths! And bards! And rangers! And sorcs! And since apparently the only thing Paladins can possibly die to is long RTs from CMANs (which is pretty amazing considering they can double in PT and CM) then long live Paladins!

The kind of mediocrity is dead! Maybe now is the time for Monk's to shine and they can shoot for that title.

Long live Savants! RSN GUYS THEY SWEAR!

[Donquix]

Yeah you're capped at 2 rounds of real damage now, the last 2 are just for "flavor" and won't ever really be meaningful.

So being capped at 2 damage cycles from 4 potentially 5 previously at max lore.

the 5th capped at 75% chance according to the chart so for average damage lets say 4.75 cycles at 200+ fire lore

we'll be generous and count the 2 "flavor" cycles now as a half cycle combined so the new version has 2.5 cycles at 150+ lore

Essentially halved the damage. That seems like...incredibly fucking excessive for still needing 150+ lore to guarantee the 2nd crit. They said they wanted to make it better for non-fire specced but it still just seems the same with no lore and with lore you still need at least like 100 to make it half as good as it used to be, and it never gets better really.

I love that they're obsessed with the disabling part...yet any hard hitting spell pretty much disables the target if it doesn't kill it (lops off a limb, stuns, causes roundtime, etc.) Seems like they shouldn't of even bothered with splitting out the disabling part and just addressed that through specific creatures that are not meant to be easily disabled (i.e. stun immune things should just shake off the being on fire thing)

[subzero]

That's partly why I think my sorc with ~4 million less experience than my wizard kicks ass. Pain is like the most awesome spell in the entire game.

These things should not be spoken of!

[subzero]

I'm looking at damage per cast.

Here, this should settle it:

Here's some more of both rift crawler and crusaders. These are all consecutive casts and not cherry picked. The only thing edited out was the 1 instant kill I got.

You gesture at a fallen crusader.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a fallen crusader suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +557 - TD: +405 + CvA: -2 + d100: +8 == +158
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a fallen crusader and he bursts into flame!
... 50 points of damage!
Hard strike to the abdomen.
Ethereal entrails seem to spill from the fallen crusader's mangled substance,
vanishing into misty tendrils as they strike the ground.
... 35 points of damage!
Painful attack flays the leg from thigh to calf.
New skin lies, snakelike, beneath the old.
It is knocked to the ground!
... 15 points of damage!
Hit passes right through the midsection.
Nothing hurts like an empty stomach.
... 5 points of damage!
Quick strike to the face!
Just nicked an eyelid!

The flames around a fallen crusader continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
>

You gesture at a fallen crusader.
CS: +557 - TD: +405 + CvA: -2 + d100: +77 == +227
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a fallen crusader and he bursts into flame!
... 40 points of damage!
Massive blow obliterates the right knee.
The fallen crusader falters as a sickly light flows freely down its leg.
It is knocked to the ground!
... 50 points of damage!
Body swirls violently from a strong hit to the back.
Neat effect!
... 10 points of damage!
Direct assault cleaves straight through the breastbone.
Alas, it mends before you can make a wish.
... 5 points of damage!
Misjudged timing.
You barely catch the fallen crusader in the back!

You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
CS: +557 - TD: +439 + CvA: +25 + d100: +31 == +174
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame!
... 30 points of damage!
Nasty burns to back. Won't be sleeping on that for awhile.
The rift crawler is stunned!
... 40 points of damage!
Flames cook an enormous rift crawler's back. Looks about medium well.
... 20 points of damage!
Burst of flames to abdomen toasts skin nicely.
... 10 points of damage!

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn!

Your runestaff resonates with an extremely high-pitched sound and causes your skin and muscles to harden!

Cast Roundtime 0 Seconds.

Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
CS: +557 - TD: +439 + CvA: +25 + d100: +39 == +182
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame!
... 30 points of damage!
look cra
The rift crawler is stunned!
... 40 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!
Minor burns to abdomen. Looks painful.
... 10 points of damage!

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.

incant 519
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
CS: +557 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +96 == +227
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame!
... 50 points of damage!
A large patch of flesh is seared off an enormous rift crawler's back.
... 40 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>

Immolation results against ENORMOUS RIFT CRAWLER:
End Roll: 227
Rank 7 Back Crit.
Total Casts: 1528
Instant Death Casts: 355 (23.233%)
Total Death Crits (including instant death casts): 466 (30.497%)
Total Damage (this cast): 110
Total Damage (all casts): 146695 (96 average per cast)

I'm at work right now and can't pull up any logs of pre-nerf immolate on plane 4, which would take me forever to dig up anyway, but here's a bunch of examples from 2006 with similar endrolls against both corporeal and non-corporeal stuff. I haven't tried Nelemar yet since these trash nerfs went in yesterday, mainly because I was enjoying not having to be stuck on Teras, but it should illustrate the difference regardless, since nothing in this post is weak or strong vs. fire as far as I'm aware:

These are with 202 fire lore, but even after I dropped down to 178 the results weren't really any different. Defenders are non-corporeal, everything else is normal.

Taken from http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?22624-Fire-Lore-Appreciation&p=545688#post545688

You gesture at a triton executioner.
CS: +524 - TD: +393 + CvA: +20 + d100: +72 == +223
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton executioner and he bursts into flame!
... 70 points of damage!
Flame burns through a triton executioner's abdomen. Greasy smoke billows forth.
The triton executioner collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
CS: +524 - TD: +400 + CvA: +20 + d100: +65 == +209
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a spectral triton defender and she bursts into flame!
... 25 points of damage!
Massive blow strikes the triton defender and drives it back!
Good thing those ribs aren't made of bone.
... 35 points of damage!
Vicious blow to neck might have been fatal a few centuries ago.
... 30 points of damage!
Strong hit to the chest!
Tendrils of mist explode as the strike passes right through.
... 60 points of damage!
Mighty blow rips through the triton defender's chest, causing it to pause as it reforms.
... 40 points of damage!
A massive blow to the left shoulder hoists the triton defender high into the air.
It hangs there a moment, suspended, before falling forward.

The flames around a spectral triton defender continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
CS: +534 - TD: +400 + CvA: +25 + d100: +70 == +229
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a spectral triton defender and he bursts into flame!
... 50 points of damage!
Hard strike to the abdomen.
Ethereal entrails seem to spill from the triton defender's mangled substance,
vanishing into misty tendrils as they strike the ground.
... 50 points of damage!
Brutal assault cuts a swath through the torso!
Fortunately for the triton defender, it doesn't need lungs.
... 30 points of damage!
Strong strike splits the belly open, revealing ghostly organs.
Haggis anyone?
... 50 points of damage!
Strong attack separates head from shoulders.
Head disappears in the breeze as a new one forms on the triton defender's shoulders!
... 70 points of damage!
Massive strike to the chest crashes through the triton defender's back in a cloud of vapor.
Slowly, the triton defender reforms its torso.


Immolate simply isn't worth the mana cost even with heavy fire lore. We have plenty of other disablers that are better and more efficient than evoke immolate, the newly nerfed damage output for cast/incant immolate isn't worth its mana cost either without the disabler, and no sane wizard is going to stand in offensive locked in a hard 3 second RT at cap, so I'm not even going to acknowledge CHANNEL.

I could deal with the Immolate nerf if the disabler was still built into the normal version, and not this trash where you have to evoke it for reduced damage for the same mana cost.

The extra damage cycles from fire lore do pathetic damage too, making it not even worth having fire lore.

I might be remembering wrong, but didn't a NIR post something during the whole HSN fiasco about realizing that a spell review is really what wizards are in need of? Which I thought was at least part of the reason why these 506/515/519 nerfs were put on hold. With the other part being even staff realizing what crap the nerfs were gonna be.

Brings back bad memories of another 19th level spell that got whacked. Immolate vs rift crawler looks like DC vs anything non-magical and most semis.

[Methais]

I miss old DC. Watching the screen scroll for 48284838383 hits was pretty awesome.

Pre-nerf immolate had nothing on old DC.

[Fallen]

Just give it 15 years and you'll be back on top again.

HSN 2031!

[Donquix]

New DC is still at least fucking metal against casters, clearly not the old DC but still that shit rips casters and requires 0 lore to do so (even though the EL gains on it are actually pretty fucking good.)

New immolate i guess you can like...troll warcamp with it for 150 lore invested?

[Astray]

Just give it 15 years and you'll be back on top again.

HSN 2031!

SAVANTS ARE COMING TOO

[Candor]

Overheard at a tavern:

Rogue1: What is that noise?
Rogue2: Oh some fingerwagglers are complaining about one of their spells not working the way they want or somesuch...
Rgoue3: Can't they keep it down? Whine whine whine whine whine!
Rogue2: It's their nature. They need something to complain about. It's part of their inferiority complex.
Rogue1: Yeah you ever hear a wizard cry after failing a high level enchant? The screaming goes on for days.
Rgoue3: Well I'm gonna tweak their necks if they don't shut up. Of course, they will probably just go invisible and run away. Again.
Rogue1: Here's to being a rogue (raises mug)...
Rogue2: Hear hear!
Rogue3: Hear hear!

[Ltlprprincess]

I tried out the changes as a warmage. I see no issues.

[Tgo01]

I tried out the changes as a warmage. I see no issues.

Warmages got nerfed the least in this. The defensive aspect of haste was nerfed quite noticeably but this is an issue with all wizards now, not just warmages.

The offensive aspect of haste wasn't really nerfed at all, it just requires more training in air lore, which according to Finros was the plan because apparently wizards don't have enough lores they need to train in already.

Pure wizards got bent over and spanked and right when they said they couldn't handle the spanking anymore Simu brought in this machine to automate the process to drive the point home:

http://www.stockpholio.net/index/view/image/8171361640_9.jpg

ETA: Oh yeah, the utility aspect of haste was similarly treated to the same ass spanking as pure wizards.

So to sum up the utility aspect of haste was beaten into submission for everyone.

The defensive aspect of haste was nerfed slightly.

The offensive aspect of haste was for the most part left unchanged, just requiring more lore training now for the same power as before.

Not to mention this all takes 2 spells now. All wizards were nerfed though because apparently they were about in the middle of the pack in terms of power and Simu felt this was too high for wizards.

[subzero]

Pre-nerf immolate had nothing on old DC.

Nothing does/did.


New DC is still at least fucking metal against casters, clearly not the old DC but still that shit rips casters and requires 0 lore to do so (even though the EL gains on it are actually pretty fucking good.)


Oh, it definitely rapes casters. Just kinda sucks that it's been pigeonholed into a niche role. Gotta disagree about the lore effects, though. Hit a caster with DC and 0 lores, the result should be death. Hit'em with DC and 202 elemental lores, the result should be death. Hit a non-caster... I don't give a fuck if you somehow have 101 ranks of each elemental lore. You ain't killin shit.


New immolate i guess you can like...troll warcamp with it for 150 lore invested?

Yeah, looks like they did a decent job wrecking immolate builds. On the other hand, I'm essentially basing this off of logs vs a non-crittable target. There were certainly some crit deaths hidden in there. Still looks like fire lore was crippled as far as immolate goes, but I suppose that depends on how it affects the crit rate vs no lores.

As far as the DC/Immolate comparison, DC isn't a guaranteed kill against casters. It does very well, but it also often requires more than one shot. I don't cast 719 at something for damage. Ever (this is a lie, but only because stupid things like runaway demons are immune to things like 711 and DC can do decent damage there) . It's cast to quickly put something in a grave. I would expect a mage heavily invested in fire lore to have similar results. It certainly doesn't appear worthwhile for the 'extra' damage. You (general) might say that immolate should be better since it requires heavy lore training, but the flip side is that it works on everything plus it has the big bad disabling effect (dunno how effective/helpful it is against critters, but I know it sucks balls when cast on me).

I'm not sure where they were going with those changes. Seems almost like they could have reduced thresholds for fire lore and opened up a more powerful version to people that way while also allowing fire mages to diversify a little more and retain a powerful immolate. I'm still disappointed they didn't take the opportunity to do something like that with stone fist. It's a pretty neat spell/idea; it's just useless before you have a ton of earth lore.

[Methais]

Rift crawlers are crittable, there are plenty of clips vs them in my post.

Also, the disable effect requires you to EVOKE the spell now, which comes with a big damage penalty.

So you can either spend 19 mana for shitty damage and no disabler, or spend 19 mana for even worse damage but with disabler.

http://i.imgur.com/1cLCXR9.jpg

[kcostell]

The more I think about 519, the more I wonder if they are going to nerf other spells.

I'm expecting 1030 and/or the 1035/1012 combo (eg by reducing flare rates on hasted swings) to be hit at some point, assuming they ever find a coder willing to work with the spellsong programming. If it happens it happens.

[Fallen]

A Dev GM (I want to say Finros) says he thinks 1035 is balanced. I wouldn't worry about that one. It's 1030 that could really get the axe. It's important that they make changes like this because it will bring a lot of people back to the game.

[Methais]

Yes, I know countless people on the fence about coming back and most of them are like "I'm waiting for some more nerfs to roll in before Simu wins me back."

[Warriorbird]

A Dev GM (I want to say Finros) says he thinks 1035 is balanced. I wouldn't worry about that one. It's 1030 that could really get the axe. It's important that they make changes like this because it will bring a lot of people back to the game.

This might be the most hilariously incorrect GM quote of the decade.

[Fallen]

This might be the most hilariously incorrect GM quote of the decade.

Oh? It was recently said in the wizard discussions that 1035 wasn't unbalanced because of it's flat rate of decrease and high spell slot. I may have misquoted the GM, but that was the spirit of the remark.

[Fallen]

It was Finros.


>4. Any thoughts on 1035? This going the same way?

No. That's a 35 mana spell that offers an absolute -1 or -2 RT. There's a large difference between that and a 6 mana spell that offers both absolute and percentage reductions and can be trivially put into magical items.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Wizard%20Spells/view/1578

Are you talking about the specific interaction of 1035 and 1012 or something?

[Tgo01]

and can be trivially put into magical items.

Well fuck, if that was a major issue then just make it so you can't imbed the spell anymore.

I hate when I see GMs say shit like this.

[Rimalon]

My ass hurts.

[kcostell]

Are you talking about the specific interaction of 1035 and 1012 or something?

Mostly the strategy of singing a sonic dagger/short sword, tonising up, and getting as many 1 second swings as you can in in hope of a lucky flare. I'm not sure if it's actually that overpowered, but it feels similar in flavor to what Simu doesn't like about Rapid Fire.

[Fallen]

Mostly the strategy of singing a sonic dagger/short sword, tonising up, and getting as many 1 second swings as you can in in hope of a lucky flare. I'm not sure if it's actually that overpowered, but it feels similar in flavor to what Simu doesn't like about Rapid Fire.

It's possible, but given his statement on the spell I wouldn't count on it. On the other hand, GMs have flat out referenced 1030 when talking about OP spells.

[Methais]

It's possible, but given his statement on the spell I wouldn't count on it. On the other hand, GMs have flat out referenced 1030 when talking about OP spells.

Simu should just remove everything except for non-ambushing sword & board builds. That will surely make the game fun and bring the population back. All this stuff with classes being fun and powerful has been driving players away for years.

[Donquix]

Simu should just remove everything except for non-ambushing sword & board builds. That will surely make the game fun and bring the population back. All this stuff with classes being fun and powerful has been driving players away for years.

But think of the balance in this non-competitive mostly single player game with a chat room attached. THINK OF THE BALANCE.

I mean, i don't mind the rapid fire nerf honestly. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that shit was broke as fuck is dumb as shit and people have been talking on lnet about how they hunted just as good without it. Like no, sorry. You fucking didn't. Literally, the laws of god damn universe prevent that from being in any way accurate. It is literally impossible. But the quickstrike stuff is cray, and the immolate nerf is hillllllarious. If it had a third real damage cycle (even if it wasn't guaranteed, like the old 5th cycle being 75%) it wouldn't be as bad.

The channel change is nice but not great. None of the other lore changes were that meaningful, and several of the spells that could have been really fun and useful with some slight tweaking just had nothing done or had changes that didn't help at all (sandstorm, weapon fire, boil, stone fist)

[subzero]

Rift crawlers are crittable, there are plenty of clips vs them in my post.

I was talking about the non-corporeal crusaders or whatever they were.


Also, the disable effect requires you to EVOKE the spell now, which comes with a big damage penalty.

So you can either spend 19 mana for shitty damage and no disabler, or spend 19 mana for even worse damage but with disabler.

http://i.imgur.com/1cLCXR9.jpg

Yeah, I forgot about that. They did a good number on immolate, can't really disagree with that.

[Wrathbringer]

I'm just glad to see wizards finally get the nerfs they've been needing for a long time. Get some, wizards.

[Astray]

I'm just glad to see wizards finally get the nerfs they've been needing for a long time. Get some, wizards.

Too obvious, broseph. 2/10 ghost antics.

[Whirlin]

So... I did some additional testing on the new 506... some interesting findings:

EVOKE version of 506 is group cast. Set incant evoke 506, or whatever the syntax, will interact with Voodoo and have you always auto-evoke it. Evoking 506 IS NO ADDITIONAL MANA COST. The effect will attempt to auto-apply to the group. Those that are ineligible due to cooldown will automatically get skipped over, with no further interaction.

Furthermore, 506 is now REFRESHABLE rather than needing to STOP it before casting it. So, change your aliases!

If the 902 changes come through as proposed, I'm alright with the changes to 535/506... This would alleviate the AS growth concerns at low levels, and free up TP for lore training. Although, I still think the equation for 506's stamina reduction cost is STUPID for having the MjE component outside the big numbers.

515/519 changes hit capped pure mages way too hard. Channel has a lot of promise... but I think the hard RT is overkill. Capped hunting grounds aren't that forgiving... which is why rapid fire was such as requirement/crutch for scatter hunting.

[RichardCranium]

Yes, I know countless people on the fence about coming back and most of them are like "I'm waiting for some more nerfs to roll in before Simu wins me back."

I am.

[Maerit]

I'm not a fan of comparing 519 with 719. 719 is mostly worthless with it only working on crit vulnerable caster-type critters. Sometimes it works on ranger-types, but more often it does not. Hell, it barely leaves rank 1's on a square critter...

I'm also not a fan of comparing 519 with 711. They're entirely different. 711 does no critical damage, and cannot instantly kill anything. You have to hit at least three times to kill the target costing 33 mana where 519 has a chance to instantly kill for 19 mana. While 519 might not perform the same disabling mechanic, at least it can still stun a target for many rounds if the target is not stun immune.

720 is more comparable with spells like 616 - no warding required it's more like a maneuver attack that doesn't leave any treasure behind.

I feel like 519 compares better with say 317. Having limited experience with 317 - is that spell instantly killing most targets in a single cast with sufficient religion lore?

[Candor]

Yes, I know countless people on the fence about coming back and most of them are like "I'm waiting for some more nerfs to roll in before Simu wins me back."

Not true. They are waiting for the half dozen or so whiners on this board to determine, in their infinite wisdom, if people should come back.

Wow...I typed that and didn't burst out laughing...oops scratch that...

[Methais]

So... I did some additional testing on the new 506... some interesting findings:

EVOKE version of 506 is group cast. Set incant evoke 506, or whatever the syntax, will interact with Voodoo and have you always auto-evoke it. Evoking 506 IS NO ADDITIONAL MANA COST. The effect will attempt to auto-apply to the group. Those that are ineligible due to cooldown will automatically get skipped over, with no further interaction.

Furthermore, 506 is now REFRESHABLE rather than needing to STOP it before casting it. So, change your aliases!

If the 902 changes come through as proposed, I'm alright with the changes to 535/506... This would alleviate the AS growth concerns at low levels, and free up TP for lore training. Although, I still think the equation for 506's stamina reduction cost is STUPID for having the MjE component outside the big numbers.

515/519 changes hit capped pure mages way too hard. Channel has a lot of promise... but I think the hard RT is overkill. Capped hunting grounds aren't that forgiving... which is why rapid fire was such as requirement/crutch for scatter hunting.

Isn't 902 just going to give +10 enhancive AS, as in if you already have max enhancive this spell is useless?

[Methais]

Not true. They are waiting for the half dozen or so whiners on this board to determine, in their infinite wisdom, if people should come back.

Wow...I typed that and didn't burst out laughing...oops scratch that...

Most people that have left over the years have done so because of either bullshit nerfs and mechanics changes, price increases, and/or having to deal with annoying retards that nobody likes, such as yourself.

[Wrathbringer]

Most people that have left over the years have done so because of either bullshit nerfs and mechanics changes, price increases, and/or having to deal with annoying retards that nobody likes, such as yourself.

:lol: Exactly.

[Tgo01]

Isn't 902 just going to give +10 enhancive AS, as in if you already have max enhancive this spell is useless?

That's what it sounds like from the spell description. It's a nice little boost for those who haven't already maxed out their weapon of choice enhancive but if you're a serious warmage at cap you probably already have this capped.

I guess one could save some bounty points on recharging in that they can reduce their enhancives to 40 and use 902 to boost it back up to 50 but that's just a matter of saving bounty points, it's not a matter of making your character more powerful.

What confuses me is I'm seeing a lot of people saying warmages are now very viable but to my knowledge before the nerfs a warmage required a lot of investment in gear to be viable. After these nerfs warmages are in a worse position than before, not a better position, so how are they very viable now?

I remember I loved playing my wizard as a warmage but around level 70 it was just too difficult to keep it up. It was possible to hunt but it just wasn't worth it.

[Warriorbird]

It's possible, but given his statement on the spell I wouldn't count on it. On the other hand, GMs have flat out referenced 1030 when talking about OP spells.

He hit on what I was referring to pretty well. It's an odd sort of blindness they have to certain abilities sometimes.

[Tgo01]

Spells and abilities that need to be nerfed next:

Mstrike
1030
240
616
650
711
319
1619
1635
1201

[Methais]

Spells and abilities that need to be nerfed next:

Mstrike
1030
240
616
650
711
319
1619
1635
1201

Then and only then will we achieve true balance where all classes are equally miserable!

[Warriorbird]

Then and only then will we achieve true balance where all classes are equally miserable!

Gemstone IV... A "Harrison Bergeron" LARP.

https://archive.org/stream/HarrisonBergeron/Harrison%20Bergeron_djvu.txt

[Methais]

Know what else is hilarious is that 415 blows Immolate out of the water now, even moreso with firelore since you get double casts with it.

Keep in mind this is a level 15 Minor Elemental spell that I'm casting with 53 less CS than I'm casting Immolate with.

[caelric]

I just go back to this: how many people have quit (rage or otherwise) vs how many people have these changes brought back? I'm willing to bet the first numbert is a positive number, and the second number is zero.

Keep on doing this, and it will be a fun game, with SVEN, RROY, Krakii, and Doug being the only players. GS going the way of MO.

Anyways, I'm sure I will get some neg rep from the pussy who mentioned something about being a whining vagina in his unsigned rep, and maybe a shart rep, too. Gosh, my soul just hurts from that.

[Reagan]

519 was the only nerf i was concerned about and they hit it hard :( Not happy.

Leslieanna

[Tgo01]

Keep on doing this, and it will be a fun game, with SVEN, RROY, Krakii, and Doug being the only players. GS going the way of MO.

That RROY guy, I swear.

[caelric]

He's pretty much fucktarded.

[Astray]

You can all migrate to MSGO. Where I'll finally be higher level than Jeril.

[TheRoseLady]

Probably not a popular opinion, but I don't mind the changes. I am very happy to have 535.

I am not young nor capped, little over 2/3 the way to 100 with the wizard. My wizard has always been a pure, not a min/max player. I hate to see spells nerfed that affect the profession though. Not sorry to see haste changed. It was like crack to a crack head.

I would like to see more positive changes to the profession. I don't have a sorc that can ensorcell, but it chaps my ass that they can bypass all the obstacles to ensorcell, vs enchant. Wizards had some profession limits implemented years and years ago, it feels like the profession has never recovered. Enchant needs to be updated to allow enhancives without having to buy potions. Familiars need to be updated to allow cross realm travel. Seriously, there needs to be some positive updating.

[Fallen]

I dislike that the loss of the old Haste is going to mean a lot more (non-wizard) people stuck in RT for crap outside of combat, but I agree that it seems to be a somewhat palatable change for wizards, with some quality of life improvements without heavy use of macros/scripts. I think as a 35th level spell, it should have at least retained the same base amount of RT protection as the 6th level spell version, with room to grow if you have dedicated lore training. I doubt they'll budge on anything related to 535. They seem more flexible on the Celerity side of the house.

Rapid Fire needs to have the "flare" changed into something useful. I haven't seen the GMs shut that suggestion down, so hopefully they'll swap it out for another idea. I like double casts. It's also nice that you can get the downtime very low with a lot of EMC. It looks like with max training and enhancives you can get the downtime to nearly 0.

Immolation is a mess. Channeling for extra power is nice in theory, but without a ton of toys, you're not going to be doing it all that often at cap. Even then, the lore thresholds are too high, as is the case with the majority of wizard lores. It seems like you're better off using 415 with Rapid Fire versus 519. Less mana, double casts with high fire lore, and a knockdown effect for strong strikes.

They should have waited until the spell improvements, especially the Enchant changes, were ready to roll out these nerfs. That would have softened the blow. I agree that the restrictions should be similar to Ensorcell. The fewer the handicaps and the more flexibility, the better.

Why the rush to get these things out the door? That was just ...dumb.

[Candor]

Most people that have left over the years have done so because of either bullshit nerfs and mechanics changes, price increases, and/or having to deal with annoying retards that nobody likes, such as yourself.

Awwww, shucks...

[Methais]

They should have waited until the spell improvements, especially the Enchant changes, were ready to roll out these nerfs.

Spell improvements aren't coming. If they were, they'd be reminding us of it nonstop in the uproar on the officials.

Or you know, they would have mentioned it at least once.

[Fallen]

Spell improvements aren't coming. If they were, they'd be reminding us of it nonstop in the uproar on the officials.

Or you know, they would have mentioned it at least once.

They're coming. They mentioned both Elemental Blade and Enchant. I wouldn't expect any help for non warmages from 411 though.

[Warriorbird]

I'm pretty sure that every improvement has already been announced unless there's more "Elemental Lore Review" style stuff.

[Overlordz]

Spells and abilities that need to be nerfed next:

Mstrike
1030
240
616
650
711
319
1619
1635
1201

You put 650 on there but not 635? 650 isn't that great

I find it amusing that they added 319 (probably one of the most overpowered spells in the game) not that long ago and are now nerfing the shit out of all wizards' fun spells. Does Estild play a cleric, and did he lose a duel to a wizard?

[SashaFierce]

You put 650 on there but not 635? 650 isn't that great

I find it amusing that they added 319 (probably one of the most overpowered spells in the game) not that long ago and are now nerfing the shit out of all wizards' fun spells. Does Estild play a cleric, and did he lose a duel to a wizard?

He does play a cleric.

[Methais]

They're coming. They mentioned both Elemental Blade and Enchant. I wouldn't expect any help for non warmages from 411 though.

I'm talking about stuff for pure builds. You know, wizardly stuff.

I'm amazed that Simu doesn't see the fact that war mages are the most reliable wizard build now as a problem. I already have post cap THW training, but I picked that up last year as something to screw around with now and then, but still planned to play as a pure most of the time.

Now it's the complete opposite, and that's really not how I want to be stuck playing. But again, it's the only build right now with any real reliability.

It's just insane to me how Simu has literally learned nothing from what they did to sorcerers with growing pains and the disastrous effect it had on the game as a whole that it has never recovered from and has only kept going downhill since, as anything that causes players to quit is bad for the entire game. Yet here they are doing it all over again. The difference is there aren't even enough people playing anymore for it to be considered a mass exodus of players, even if a big chunk of wizard mains quit tomorrow. You'd think they'd prioritize not killing the game even more for the few people that are still left.

[Fallen]

I think a good deal of the attrition will be from non-wizards who regularly hunted with Haste. It's pretty clear that style of hunting is never going to return. If they made use of that spell via imbeddable or wizard MAing, and don't find Celerity hunting fun, I can't blame them for quitting. Apparently, this was a big enough balance issue that Dev thought it worth the hit to the pocketbook to correct it.

I won't even attempt to argue that the game is not more balanced with the new Haste. I just don't think the end result is worth the account attrition to achieve this balance in a 21 year old, text-based PvE game with a player base numbering in the hundreds. I mean hell, it caused a few people to quit in Plat. Their population isn't even 100. You're talking attrition approaching 5% of the playerbase there.

[Methais]

I think a good deal of the attrition will be from non-wizards who regularly hunted with Haste. It's pretty clear that style of hunting is never going to return. If they made use of that spell via imbeddable or wizard MAing, and don't find Celerity hunting fun, I can't blame them for quitting. Apparently, this was a big enough balance issue that Dev thought it worth the hit to the pocketbook to correct it.

I won't even attempt to argue that the game is not more balanced with the new Haste. I just don't think the end result is worth the account attrition to achieve this balance in a 21 year old, text-based PvE game with a player base numbering in the hundreds. I mean hell, it caused a few people to quit in Plat. Their population isn't even 100. You're talking attrition approaching 5% of the playerbase there.

I don't understand their obsession with balance via nerfs in a non-competitive PvE game where most of its combat is done solo. And without there being any real group combat content along the line of raids where X class might get shafted with the group because they suck, there's nothing to be gained by nerfing class or build, especially stuff that's been in existence as long as the game itself, pushing 30 years now.

All they ever achieve with this so called "balance" is reducing the population by even more, and the only gameplay result is making things more unbalanced but in the opposite direction.

If non-wizards were hunting with 5838338 haste imbeds, so what? Player A who is doing it isn't going to have any impact on Player B who isn't. Even if they were hunting the same area at the same time, Player B still wouldn't have problems because the spawn rate would increase, plus Player A would be leaving soon enough since he'd be frying a little bit quicker.

The obsession with wanting all classes to be the same will only result in everyone being equally miserable. If a class is falling behind, buff them instead of nerfing others.

I don't think even Simu would be delusional enough to think that nerfs like these are going to have a positive effect on the player base. Which makes it even more stupid to do shit like this, knowing it's going to result in less people playing when the player base is already on life support.

I wouldn't be surprised if celerity cooldown potions popped up in the Simucoin store sometime in the near future. I honestly wouldn't put that level of arrogance past them.

[Jarvan]

Spell improvements aren't coming. If they were, they'd be reminding us of it nonstop in the uproar on the officials.

Or you know, they would have mentioned it at least once.

Didn't they do the bolt improvements during HSN? (mostly via ELR)

I mean.. it's only been what.. 3 months or so and people already forgot?

[SashaFierce]

If non-wizards were hunting with 5838338 haste imbeds, so what? Player A who is doing it isn't going to have any effect on Player B. Even if they were hunting the same area at the same time, Player B still wouldn't have problems because the spawn rate would increase, plus Player A would be leaving soon enough since he'd be frying a little bit quicker.

I think this is what it's about. They want people to fry slower, so leveling takes more time, so they earn more money by players being forced to subscribe longer.

It seems like most of what they do anymore is find ways to charge us more money. Look at events for example. Events are losing services they always offered, so they can offer them via new events so you have to attend every event to get the same offerings you would have received from the previous single event. (Enhancive Perm from EG to Sylinar/Briarmoon, Ithzir from EG to Briarmoon, Voln from EG to Briarmoon)

[Fallen]

I don't understand their obsession with balance in a non-competitive PvE game. All they ever achieve with it is reducing the population by even more.

If non-wizards were hunting with 5838338 haste imbeds, so what? Player A who is doing it isn't going to have any effect on Player B. Even if they were hunting the same area at the same time, Player B still wouldn't have problems because the spawn rate would increase, plus Player A would be leaving soon enough since he'd be frying a little bit quicker.

The obsession with wanting all classes to be the same will only result in everyone being equally miserable. If a class is falling behind, buff them instead of nerfing others.

I don't think even Simu would be delusional enough to think that nerfs like these are going to have a positive effect on the player base. Which makes it even more stupid to do shit like this, knowing it's going to result in less people playing when the player base is already on life support.

I wouldn't be surprised if celerity cooldown potions popped up in the Simucoin store sometime in the near future. I wouldn't put that level of arrogance past them.

I have to agree. AFK scripting is far more disruptive than an MA group making use of Haste, if they're all present and actively responding to the game environment. Is the worry that these people won't find the game challenging? You can up-hunt as much as you want for an additional challenge. At cap, you can up-hunt in places like the Confluence and the Scatter. If you don't want to deal with other people, there are Grimswarm camps, which is basically instanced hunting.

I have to imagine they have some sort of master plan where now that the game is "balanced" they are free to roll out a whole host of changes to make things better for everyone else, without having to worry about Hasted hunters being insanely unbalanced. Or else, what ...the hell...was the point? If this is the case, they need to be communicating these wondrous changes to come in a major way. Problem is, they CANT because DEV is completely unreliable due to the dependence on a volunteer staff. These quality of life improvements can completely disappear if a few people leave staff, giving us a Growing Pains scenario all over again. This is all assuming big changes are even on their way, which again, we haven't heard a damned thing about to my knowledge.

I'd love to hear someone make an argument that Wizards are now more fun to hunt with these recent changes. I'm not saying Wizards are nonviable. I am not saying hunting one isn't fun. I'm saying they're not as much fun as they were before. That fun wasn't coming at the expense of any other profession or group of players. To the contrary, Wizards contributed DIRECTLY to the fun of others via Haste.

TLDR: What the fuck was point?

[Methais]

Didn't they do the bolt improvements during HSN? (mostly via ELR)

I mean.. it's only been what.. 3 months or so and people already forgot?

A handful of high seed lore benefits scattered across all 4 lores, most of which are proc based that have little to no impact on things isn't even worth mentioning. It's not that people forgot. But feel free to tell me about all these game changing improvements they've done. Surely the fact that people "forgot" couldn't be because almost everything from HSN was forgettable due to being so weak and useless.

I'm pretty sure Estild or some other GM even agreed toward the end of the ELR that what wizards really need is a spell review during HSN. I don't remember who or how it was put, but even they seemed to be aware that the ELR doesn't address the underlying problems wizards face especially with bolting.

I was under the impression that the big 3 nerfs were put on hold until said spell review happened, but for whatever reason they decided to roll it out now.

[SashaFierce]

I was under the impression that the big 3 nerfs were put on hold until said spell review happened, but for whatever reason they decided to roll it out now.

My guess is they rolled out these changes now, because the new capped hunting area relies on them.

[Fallen]

My guess is they rolled out these changes now, because the new capped hunting area relies on them.

I would hope not. Changing how the whole game operates for one hunting ground seems pretty dumb.

[Soulance]

They're coming. They mentioned both Elemental Blade and Enchant. I wouldn't expect any help for non warmages from 411 though.
eBlade should be like ensorcell. You can either do a temp eBlade or you can infuse it with flares of your EL persuasion.

Enchanting needs changes too, but I'm worried how much more they are going to screw things up.

[SashaFierce]

I would hope not. Changing how the whole game operates for one hunting ground seems pretty dumb.

Just speculation on my part, I don't understand why these changes were needed at all apart from haste and rapid fire. In the big picture, 519 was no different than most of the other high power abilities (711/720/616/635/1030)

[Fallen]

Just speculation on my part, I don't understand why these changes were needed at all apart from haste and rapid fire. In the big picture, 519 was no different than most of the other high power abilities (711/720/616/635/1030)

The thing is with Immolate, it required pretty much complete dedication to Fire Lore for it to reach the status of being the best of the single-target CS spells. That's saying something, especially in the face of that lore review where shit got spread out all over the pleace. Other pures gain better crossover benefits to achieve similar results.

I think they should have left the damage alone and separated the RT into Evoke.

[Maerit]

The only reason Simu can justify making balance changes to this game is because of new hunting grounds (and existing hunting grounds, TBH).

Haste was nerfed because of it's abuse on non-wizards. Any group with a wizard in tow could haste the entire party with Rapid Fire in a second, and suddenly the most difficult areas in the game for hunting became trivial. The same could be said for Rapid Fire nerfs. The spell made hunting far too easy in areas of the game that were supposed to be challenging.

There is only one reason balance is important in this game - that reason is for creating creatures to challenge players. It isn't like other MMOs where raids and individual "value" is a factor. However, it's incredibly hard, if not impossible, to invent creature mechanics that are challenging but not impossible when you have to factor in permanent speed buffs like Rapid Fire and Haste to a single profession. You either make that creature easy for folks with access to those spells (either directly, or indirectly from being buffed) - or you make it difficult for people with those spells and impossible for everyone else.

I think Duskruin is a good example. My Paladin didn't stand a chance in there without Haste. The second I bought Haste consumables though - easy to finish the entire arena. They even had to block Rapid Fire for non-Wizards. The fact that they didn't block it for Wizards, however, is an example of how flawed the class becomes without the spell!

What they didn't do was provide the necessary replacement utility to create opportunities for Wizards to have reliable hunting tactics. Instead they just stripped the spells that cause balance issues leaving Wizards without a reliable tactic to employ in it's place -- and that is the biggest failure of these changes in my opinion.

[Methais]

I think this is what it's about. They want people to fry slower, so leveling takes more time, so they earn more money by players being forced to subscribe longer.

Except they don't realize that a canceled account instantly negates all of that. Not to mention it's the community that keeps people around more than anything, but combat nerfs will drive them away quick.

I don't think I've ever heard someone seriously say something like "Gee I'd sure like to keep playing/return to the game, but by golly I'm waiting for some balance because X is just too powerful!" and probably never will.


It seems like most of what they do anymore is find ways to charge us more money. Look at events for example. Events are losing services they always offered, so they can offer them via new events so you have to attend every event to get the same offerings you would have received from the previous single event. (Enhancive Perm from EG to Sylinar/Briarmoon, Ithzir from EG to Briarmoon, Voln from EG to Briarmoon)

What gets me is Simu doesn't even try to hide it, yet people keep encouraging shit like that by signing up for event after event. Though a lot do it just to flip everything for a cash profit after, so...it's hard to really put blame in any one place. It's still bullshit though, and all this combat nerfing and slowing down combat is coming straight from Whatley. Why he suddenly wants to be involved with the game again is beyond me, but so far the results have been disastrous, and he should go back to just collecting checks.

[Fallen]

The only reason Simu can justify making balance changes to this game is because of new hunting grounds (and existing hunting grounds, TBH).

Haste was nerfed because of it's abuse on non-wizards. Any group with a wizard in tow could haste the entire party with Rapid Fire in a second, and suddenly the most difficult areas in the game for hunting became trivial. The same could be said for Rapid Fire nerfs. The spell made hunting far too easy in areas of the game that were supposed to be challenging.

There is only one reason balance is important in this game - that reason is for creating creatures to challenge players. It isn't like other MMOs where raids and individual "value" is a factor. However, it's incredibly hard, if not impossible, to invent creature mechanics that are challenging but not impossible when you have to factor in permanent speed buffs like Rapid Fire and Haste to a single profession. You either make that creature easy for folks with access to those spells (either directly, or indirectly from being buffed) - or you make it difficult for people with those spells and impossible for everyone else.

I think Duskruin is a good example. My Paladin didn't stand a chance in there without Haste. The second I bought Haste consumables though - easy to finish the entire arena. They even had to block Rapid Fire for non-Wizards. The fact that they didn't block it for Wizards, however, is an example of how flawed the class becomes without the spell!

What they didn't do was provide the necessary replacement utility to create opportunities for Wizards to have reliable hunting tactics. Instead they just stripped the spells that cause balance issues leaving Wizards without a reliable tactic to employ in it's place -- and that is the biggest failure of these changes in my opinion.

I suppose I would then ask, who were these groups of Wizards and/or MAers complaining that their hunting grounds were too easy? Instead of making people happy, they made people quit.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the Scatter or the Confluence was a big hit with MA crews, was it?

As for Duskruin, they swore up and down that none of these changes had anything to do with it. Take that for what you will.

[Methais]

I think I've seen a total of maybe 5 other people in the Confluence in the entire time I'd been hunting the place, and only 1 or 2 of them I'd see more than once.

Confluence is for the most part a ghost town for a number of reasons, mainly the dispel spam, nothing being crittable, everything being immune to most crowd control spells (the only thing that worked on them for me as a disabler was Immolate, which was useless against half of the stuff there since they're fire immune), ewave and call wind and all that has no effect, and the movement RT. Even with 101 survival I would still get it a lot, though with haste it was only 1 second.

But the main problem with that place is lack of crowd control, at least for wizards. Not sure if other things like 316 or 135 worked on them.

Bottom line though is Simu has to know that nerfs like these aren't going to have a net positive effect on the game, but they say fuck it and do it anyway and then wonder why WHO only shows 100 people, with probably at least 1/3 of those 100 being MA accounts.

The things they shouldn't be doing are so obvious it's mindblowing that they do it anyway and think they're making the game better when they're just making it worse.

[Shaps]

Hilarious when things over the years affected others.. and people said "get over it!"... ROFL.. now all you MA'ing haste bitches realize "Oh shit.. it's going to take 5 minutes to fry as opposed to 2!".. LoL.. stop complaining people.

[Fallen]

Hilarious when things over the years affected others.. and people said "get over it!"... ROFL.. now all you MA'ing haste bitches realize "Oh shit.. it's going to take 5 minutes to fry as opposed to 2!".. LoL.. stop complaining people.

I never MA'd or made regular use of Haste while hunting. If you believe that's the only reason why people dislike these changes, you haven't been paying attention.

[Methais]

Hilarious when things over the years affected others.. and people said "get over it!"... ROFL.. now all you MA'ing haste bitches realize "Oh shit.. it's going to take 5 minutes to fry as opposed to 2!".. LoL.. stop complaining people.

How did people running around with Haste affect others? And what stopped those people from using Haste themselves?

[Wrathbringer]

How did people running around with Haste affect others?

It made them gay.


And what stopped those people from using Haste themselves?

The fact that they were straight.

[Methais]

It made them gay.



The fact that they were straight.

Yeah well...these nerfs made everything gay!

[Wrathbringer]

Yeah well...these nerfs made everything gay!

omg I had no idea it was that bad. I'm really sorry. Gay sucks.

[Methais]

You should know, because the nerfs made you gay as well.

https://i.imgur.com/eCgYWlS.jpg

[Soulance]

Except they don't realize that a canceled account instantly negates all of that. Not to mention it's the community that keeps people around more than anything, but combat nerfs will drive them away quick.
This I could see. It has been stated over and over that the hunting portion of this game is the worst part of it all. Tedious grinding (other than alchemy/forging/etc) that people hurry up and do because they have to so they can get back to why they are usually here - to interact with others. Sure, everyone's a little different as to why they are here. I don't really recall people constantly complaining that wizards were OP. Sure, some would say it in passing or messing around. But Sorcs were the now OP target nowadays. They did some good things and they missed the mark on others.

I'm screwed at the moment until I can try to figure out how to hunt my wizard. He's around 93 and RELIED on Haste the way it was to have even a little chance of making through a 5 minute round in OTF. It is constant swarming even if you're the only one in there - which you never are. There are people in there at all times, some of them in MA groups which now you pretty much have to do as a lower level wizard to make it in there that cause swarming even worse. Even with all Wizard spells, Spirit spells from a Cleric, and Ranger spells I was picked apart within 2 minutes and laden with stacking RT. All I could do was sit there and watch as creature after creature flooded the room and gave me more RT or slammed me with a spell/weapon/wave. One maneuver from them that connects and I'm pretty much done for. I used to be able to atleast Rapid Fire them enough to keep two or three in the room only. I just don't see that happening anymore. I can't hunt aquaducts because I don't learn from them anymore, and now I can't hunt OTF because there is no area that has, say, only Janissary or Scouts that I might be able to handle. No, have to deal with seers that don't stun, griffins that screech for 20 RT (minimum 10 rt with Haste right?) and are roughly 8 above my level.

So, guess I'll just start enchanting everything and get experience that way...dumb.

[Shaps]

So let's get this straight.. you had a hard time with haste.. imagine those without it.. and you actually still have it.. just not as strong as it once was.. Cry a river for us all.. LOL.. I'm loving this.

[Fallen]

This I could see. It has been stated over and over that the hunting portion of this game is the worst part of it all. Tedious grinding (other than alchemy/forging/etc) that people hurry up and do because they have to so they can get back to why they are usually here - to interact with others. Sure, everyone's a little different as to why they are here. I don't really recall people constantly complaining that wizards were OP. Sure, some would say it in passing or messing around. But Sorcs were the now OP target nowadays. They did some good things and they missed the mark on others.

I'm screwed at the moment until I can try to figure out how to hunt my wizard. He's around 93 and RELIED on Haste the way it was to have even a little chance of making through a 5 minute round in OTF. It is constant swarming even if you're the only one in there - which you never are. There are people in there at all times, some of them in MA groups which now you pretty much have to do as a lower level wizard to make it in there that cause swarming even worse. Even with all Wizard spells, Spirit spells from a Cleric, and Ranger spells I was picked apart within 2 minutes and laden with stacking RT. All I could do was sit there and watch as creature after creature flooded the room and gave me more RT or slammed me with a spell/weapon/wave. One maneuver from them that connects and I'm pretty much done for. I used to be able to atleast Rapid Fire them enough to keep two or three in the room only. I just don't see that happening anymore. I can't hunt aquaducts because I don't learn from them anymore, and now I can't hunt OTF because there is no area that has, say, only Janissary or Scouts that I might be able to handle. No, have to deal with seers that don't stun, griffins that screech for 20 RT (minimum 10 rt with Haste right?) and are roughly 8 above my level.

So, guess I'll just start enchanting everything and get experience that way...dumb.

Pointless trolling aside, OTF can indeed be rough on non-capped solo hunters. The best advice I can give is to stay far away from the main entrance area while hunting. There are multiple zones in OTF, each with their own spawn rates. I'd suggest looking for one that isn't well travelled so your spawn rate won't be through the roof. You'll still be stacked in RT oblivion from time to time, as that is how OTF do.

If need be, set 2 two rings inside OTF, one at the entrance taking you out of that starting zone, and one bringing you back to the entrance. If nothing else, being able to ring out of a nasty situation rather than trying to crawl away or fight is a good way to take advantage of a small gap in the RT stacking.

[Maerit]

I suppose I would then ask, who were these groups of Wizards and/or MAers complaining that their hunting grounds were too easy? Instead of making people happy, they made people quit.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the Scatter or the Confluence was a big hit with MA crews, was it?

As for Duskruin, they swore up and down that none of these changes had anything to do with it. Take that for what you will.

I don't think anyone complained about things being too easy. It seems like most folks are content with easy content as long as it's new and interesting. However, if I were Simu, I'd be running statistics (which we know they do and constantly flaunt on the officials) to see what spells and what professions are hunting these areas extensively. If Wizards are dominating the confluence and scatter while other professions are struggling, or if everyone in these areas are constantly using haste consumables, then this becomes a concern. Areas that are meant to be a challenge to solo suddenly are not so much? How do you design content when a single class can bypass the mechanics meant to "gate" that content?

I don't know if that is the case - I'm only speculating in this regard. However, when game mechanics that favor a specific class become an obstacle to creating new content, I'm in favor of adjusting those mechanics personally.

How do people hunt these areas without the tools? What's missing from the Wizard arsenal to make this possible. That's really what I think has to be considered now.

[Soulance]

What profession are you? Rogue? Ranger? Warrior? Gee, I cant really wear more than fulls. Can you hide and ambush? Maybe if things were more "fair" then you could stop with your "cry a river" nonsense. Let Wizards wear plate with no spell hindrance. That's fair.

[Shaps]

People are filling their minds, or hunting until they weigh 500+ pounds at cap... I love the fact people are all of a sudden having to "play" the game rather than just "506 yo'ass and ;sloot". Though I do hope people stay around, even with the changes. :(

[Fallen]

I don't think anyone complained about things being too easy. It seems like most folks are content with easy content as long as it's new and interesting. However, if I were Simu, I'd be running statistics (which we know they do and constantly flaunt on the officials) to see what spells and what professions are hunting these areas extensively. If Wizards are dominating the confluence and scatter while other professions are struggling, or if everyone in these areas are constantly using haste consumables, then this becomes a concern. Areas that are meant to be a challenge to solo suddenly are not so much? How do you design content when a single class can bypass the mechanics meant to "gate" that content?

I don't know if that is the case - I'm only speculating in this regard. However, when game mechanics that favor a specific class become an obstacle to creating new content, I'm in favor of adjusting those mechanics personally.

How do people hunt these areas without the tools? What's missing from the Wizard arsenal to make this possible. That's really what I think has to be considered now.

I think people bypass difficulty in this instance in a few ways. More toys (Higher enchant gear, padding, DB, etc), A shit ton of post-cap EXP, and/or spell tanking.

I agree with your premise, but you're also assuming they're going to go back and tweak existing monster mechanics to take into account these changes. I think we both know that isn't going to happen. To the contrary, creatures have become MORE powerful due to the effects of the ELR. %chance procs for players are pretty worthless. For creatures, when you're encountering loads of them every hunt? Fairly effective.

As to wizards specifically, they have the steepest armor penalties. So moving into heavier armor isn't an option short of going Warmage. Even then, it's a stretch. Spelltanking is a possibility, but Charge Item pales in comparison to Scroll Infusion, both in the supply of magic items with outside spells and in the mechanics involved in maintaining them. 950 should be useful, but it isn't here yet and is fairly limited in usages a day.

ATM, I think wizards are just stretched too thin. Their lore requirements are all over the place, and often show little results without heavy investments. If anyone had an argument for being able to 3x lores, it'd be them. The problem is that would only help Wizards way over cap with the TPs to make use of those added ranks.

[Shaps]

Fallen,
Now that I can agree with.

Give Mages.. Caster's really.. the ability to train 3x in Lores. Let Warriors/Rogues train 3x in CM. Let Paladins/Bards/Rangers train 3x in Mana controls (I know may seem silly but there are benefits)... etc...

I think the fact people are bitching over a hunt taking them maybe 1-2 minutes more is hilarious. Focus on some actual real balanced/unique changes... cause I doubt Simu is going to change what they've done.

[SashaFierce]

This I could see. It has been stated over and over that the hunting portion of this game is the worst part of it all. Tedious grinding (other than alchemy/forging/etc) that people hurry up and do because they have to so they can get back to why they are usually here - to interact with others. Sure, everyone's a little different as to why they are here. I don't really recall people constantly complaining that wizards were OP. Sure, some would say it in passing or messing around. But Sorcs were the now OP target nowadays. They did some good things and they missed the mark on others.

I'm screwed at the moment until I can try to figure out how to hunt my wizard. He's around 93 and RELIED on Haste the way it was to have even a little chance of making through a 5 minute round in OTF. It is constant swarming even if you're the only one in there - which you never are. There are people in there at all times, some of them in MA groups which now you pretty much have to do as a lower level wizard to make it in there that cause swarming even worse. Even with all Wizard spells, Spirit spells from a Cleric, and Ranger spells I was picked apart within 2 minutes and laden with stacking RT. All I could do was sit there and watch as creature after creature flooded the room and gave me more RT or slammed me with a spell/weapon/wave. One maneuver from them that connects and I'm pretty much done for. I used to be able to atleast Rapid Fire them enough to keep two or three in the room only. I just don't see that happening anymore. I can't hunt aquaducts because I don't learn from them anymore, and now I can't hunt OTF because there is no area that has, say, only Janissary or Scouts that I might be able to handle. No, have to deal with seers that don't stun, griffins that screech for 20 RT (minimum 10 rt with Haste right?) and are roughly 8 above my level.

So, guess I'll just start enchanting everything and get experience that way...dumb.


I'm a level 92 wizard and I'm doing alright. 5x DCP full leather, 6x lance, 2x DB.

I would suggest that you try being a warmage.

[Maerit]

7What profession are you? Rogue? Ranger? Warrior? Gee, I cant really wear more than fulls. Can you hide and ambush? Maybe if things were more "fair" then you could stop with your "cry a river" nonsense. Let Wizards wear plate with no spell hindrance. That's fair.

Actually, I think one of the options that should be considered is to give Wizards the opportunity to move into heavier armor. I don't think this mechanic should be done via actual armor, but similar to how Monks have 1202 - Wizards should gain armor benefits via 520. This would make channeling bolts to be much more appealing. With the right amount of Earth Lore, wizards and stone skin could achieve something like chain hauberk level protection.

Once again - another example of how Simu needs to consider filling in the gaps. If they want to make Wizards slower, but rely on bolts - then give Wizards the tools to perform that role. Any class that has to work in higher stances than guarded should be afforded the opportunity to wear somewhat heavier armor. Especially if the expectation is that they will be in RT while in those stances. If they want to allow Wizards the options to be Warding hunters, then fix 519 to work better in that capacity and provide more synergy with setup spells.

I'm entirely of the mindset that Wizards were put in a bad position with these changes, but not necessarily that the changes were bad for the game. Simu needs to recognize that the most popular class in this game (based on recent comparisons) is now nearly the least effective (poor monks) and has the most unreliable combat system.

[Fallen]

Fallen,
Now that I can agree with.

Give Mages.. Caster's really.. the ability to train 3x in Lores. Let Warriors/Rogues train 3x in CM. Let Paladins/Bards/Rangers train 3x in Mana controls (I know may seem silly but there are benefits)... etc...

I think the fact people are bitching over a hunt taking them maybe 1-2 minutes more is hilarious. Focus on some actual real balanced/unique changes... cause I doubt Simu is going to change what they've done.

I agree with Warriors/Rogues/Monks getting 3x CM. I don't think this would be unbalancing.

As to these changes, I think there's still room to push back and regain some lost ground. They're not going to repeal everything, but Immolation needs work. Rapid Fire needs work. Celerity costs are still actively being tweaked. Future spells/abilities will be balanced around what Wizards say they need. There's always a point in stating your case.

[Methais]

So let's get this straight.. you had a hard time with haste.. imagine those without it.. and you actually still have it.. just not as strong as it once was.. Cry a river for us all.. LOL.. I'm loving this.

The classes without it have other tools to deal with it. Like bards for example...I'd trade haste in an instant for 1040 or whatever their get out of jail free spell is.

For wizards, sitting in long RTs typically means death, being the squishiest class in the game and all. In most cases by the time RT ends, assuming we're still alive, we're usually stunned or otherwise incapacitated from that big 115 endroll we just got hit with, and death follows soon after. Other classes can take those hits or have ways to escape the situation. Wizards can't.

[Soulance]

I'm a level 92 wizard and I'm doing alright. 5x DCP full leather, 6x lance, 2x DB.

I would suggest that you try being a warmage.
Definitely a thought, but after being a CS Cleric caster for 100+ levels it's been a lot of fun to bolt. And I enjoy bolting with 505 even though it was quite a bit more mana intensive.

I actually even made it to the 90's with my Wizard and almost never used Haste other than for eating herbs. It was only recently I started because I would constantly get wiped out by the mobs in OTF. Sure, extra spell protection is nice, but that can get dispelled in an instant from a seer. Add in that for AS I need to be in an offensive stance.

So, that one extra second you all think we're complaining and crying about - can make ALL the difference in the world in keeping this a semi-fun game in hunting. For me at least. Every time I'd go to OTF it was an adrenaline rush because I didn't think I'd make it out on my own feet. I guess at least now I know I will die so, hey, good experience for my Cleric.

[Methais]

I'm entirely of the mindset that Wizards were put in a bad position with these changes, but not necessarily that the changes were bad for the game.

Anything that causes people to quit is bad for the game, especially with a struggling population like ours that can't exactly sustain more people leaving.

Nobody is going to quit a PvE game because they think X is too powerful, but people will definitely quit when they get nerfed into the ground.

All of these "balance" issues might make sense if this were a PvP oriented game or even a group heavy PvE game, but GS is neither of those.

[Soulance]

The classes without it have other tools to deal with it. Like bards for example...I'd trade haste in an instant for 1040 or whatever their get out of jail free spell is.

For wizards, sitting in long RTs typically means death, being the squishiest class in the game and all. In most cases by the time RT ends, assuming we're still alive, we're usually stunned or otherwise incapacitated from that big 115 endroll we just got hit with, and death follows soon after. Other classes can take those hits or have ways to escape the situation. Wizards can't.
Maybe Wizards get automatic Ithzir armor!

[caelric]

Anything that causes people to quit is bad for the game, especially with a struggling population like ours that can't exactly sustain more people leaving.

Nobody is going to quit a PvE game because they think X is too powerful, but people will definitely quit when they get nerfed into the ground.

All of these "balance" issues might make sense if this were a PvP oriented game or even a group heavy PvE game, but GS is neither of those.

Wanted to repeat this here, as it bears on the game and the Wizard nerfs as a whole:


I'm quitting as a result of these changes. Sure, there were a lot of other things that were building up to it, but these combined changes are the proverbial straw. I'm sure Fleurs would disparage my reasons, as I am partially doing it because it made my 600+ haste edibles mostly worthless for my weapon swinging sorc, but I also have a near capped wizard who bolts and immolates, and bam, that is done with being useful, either.

I'd say a sure sign that someone is quitting for good is the sale of all their high end items.

And yes, this is in Plat, so it's not quite the same thing as quitting from Prime, but it is $100 (2x Plat accts) less per month in Simu's (Whatley's) pockets, and enough of that, and it doesn't make sense to keep the game active and pay the costs for the server's electricity. Hence what happened to MO. Good luck, GS, you'll need it.

[Tgo01]

Has anything been done to address Wizard's glaring lack of TD? Maybe that should have been fixed first before any discussions of nerfs even took place, much less implemented.

What do I mean by lack of TD? Well let's compare a wizard's TD to a frickin' warrior's TD.

Observe:

Warriors:

401 +5 ETD
406 +10 ETD
414 +15 ETD

101 +10 STD
107 +15 STD
120 +20 STD

Combat Focus +10 generic TD

Full plate compared to full leather difference: +35 genericTD

Shield tier 5 ensorcell +10 genericTD
Shield Focus rank 3 +6 genericTD

Total Two handed weapon warrior:
ETD: 97
STD: 104
SorcTD: 99

Total Sword and Shield warrior:
ETD: 113
STD: 120
SorcTD: 115


Wizards:

401 +5 ETD
406 +10 ETD
414 +15 ETD
430 +38 ETD
508 +20 ETD
913 +38 ETD

Tier 5 ensorcell on runestaff +10 genericTD

Total:
ETD: 136
STD: 72
SorcTD: 102


Compared to a sword and shield warrior a wizard has a whole +23ETD yet 32 less STD and 13 less SorcTD. A magical class such as a wizard loses out to a warrior in two of the three magical realms! And I was as nice as I could be when calculating these values. I put wizard ranks at 67 because most wizards stop there and even then it's usually the last thing they put points into. I didn't even give warrior's 430 even though technically they can learn it. I also stopped shield focus at rank 3 because most warriors stop at rank 3 but technically they could put another 2 points there for an extra +4 generic TD.

A well trained warrior really has no weakness, they are like walking tanks raining down death and destruction where ever they go. A warrior was even bragging about their 1 second 8 Mstrike attack the other day courtesy of Quickstrike. But wizards had the audacity to attack once a second?

[Donquix]

that was probably droit on his ranger for the mstrike thing :P (8 strike katars)

that is like...super extreme post cap. There's like 3 warriors who make that comparison accurate but yes, at like 30m+ postcap warriors are nuts.

[Tgo01]

that is like...super extreme post cap. There's like 3 warriors who make that comparison accurate but yes, at like 30m+ postcap warriors are nuts.

Sad thing is at 30 million experience a warrior probably could have 120 and 430 yet no matter how far post cap a wizard gets they will never get anymore TD or really gain that much more power.

[subzero]

The classes without it have other tools to deal with it. Like bards for example...I'd trade haste in an instant for 1040 or whatever their get out of jail free spell is.

For wizards, sitting in long RTs typically means death, being the squishiest class in the game and all. In most cases by the time RT ends, assuming we're still alive, we're usually stunned or otherwise incapacitated from that big 115 endroll we just got hit with, and death follows soon after. Other classes can take those hits or have ways to escape the situation. Wizards can't.

An RT locked sorcerer is a dead sorcerer. Empaths might survive with 1150. Dunno about clerics. But I do know that sorcerers are cooked in that instance.

[rolfard]

Sad thing is at 30 million experience a warrior probably could have 120 and 430 yet no matter how far post cap a wizard gets they will never get anymore TD or really gain that much more power.

That's when they pick up shields, dodging, and uac.

[Silvean]

Postcap experience opportunities are not balanced across the professions. I thought the consensus was that hybrid classes have the most to gain.

[Fallen]

An RT locked sorcerer is a dead sorcerer. Empaths might survive with 1150. Dunno about clerics. But I do know that sorcerers are cooked in that instance.

Gotta rely on Animate Dead and Pestilence. But yeah, it's bad juju.

[Menos]

A well trained warrior really has no weakness, they are like walking tanks raining down death and destruction where ever they go. A warrior was even bragging about their 1 second 8 Mstrike attack the other day courtesy of Quickstrike. But wizards had the audacity to attack once a second?

I love the warrior profession as much as anyone and they are amazing, but comparing qstrike and mstrike's cooldown and stamina recovery time to a constant 1 per second attack is simply disingenuous. It borders on comedy if you start to think about the "mass" attack and crowd control options for warriors vs casting professions. Judging by the general tenor of these threads, I do not think many wizards would be pleased with 8 casts or swings in 1 second and a 3 minute cooldown.

I will grant you the lack of weakness part (excluding one off unlucky maneuvers), but that is sort of the point of a tank profession. Warriors kill things slow but are very hard to kill. Wizards kill faster and can die more easily. There are ways each can venture over into the other type of tactics, but it is not their forte.

[Menos]

Sad thing is at 30 million experience a warrior probably could have 120 and 430 yet no matter how far post cap a wizard gets they will never get anymore TD or really gain that much more power.

This is something we can both strongly agree on. I desperately hope we see additional post cap advancement options. A warrior (or paladin) post cap can do some insane things that a pure who is already nearly maxed in primary and secondary combat skills cannot. Moving from 40 paladin circle spells to 160 is more effectual than a pure going to 1x CM (I think, none of my pures are post cap).

[subzero]

Gotta rely on Animate Dead and Pestilence. But yeah, it's bad juju.

I haven't played since the AD changes and pestilence addition, so I forgot those are even available. However, relying on those things to save your ass is kinda like relying on any proc-based effect; I'm not a fan. It's why I won't use 130 with 712. Being dropped off in a random room that is possibly full or or will soon be full of baddies and potentially being damaged further by the 'saving' spell trigger just isn't my idea of a safety net. Not to mention you're probably half-dead when 712 triggers anyway. Anyhow, in the random-might-save-your-ass vein, wizards have 540!

RT lock just isn't good for either profession.

[Donquix]

It's a problem but in the grand scheme not a priority, as it affects like 3% of even our old playerbase. I made the same comparison for monks. Since monks are a "square" that is still expected to train in spells, there's very little post cap advancement by comparison to even other squares, since by the time a monk caps even by conservative spell training expectations of devs they should already have nearly all spells available to them (with very little meaningful scaling options from additional ranks or their "expected" mental lores)

tl;dr - post cap breaks everything

wizards (and pures) certainly do get help from extreme post cap. Maxing CM (pf should already be maxed at cap), dodging (lol that dodge grind for a pure, my god), picking up brawl for being disarmed, doing the (probably i'm sure going to be nerfed at some point) shield training + runestaff thing. Those actually do help pretty considerably for the shitty times you get RT locked by maneuvers / unlucky spirit ward, etc. Not as strong as war/rogue with 101 spell ranks or semis, just by virtue of being semis, but nothing to scoff at either.

In the interest of playing a bit of devil's advocate (i don't mind the haste or rapid fire nerfs to be honest, immolate was way overnerfed, and the ELR additions as a whole were just disappointing so i'm not too concerned about raw wizard power to be honest), there is still the release of 950 (time stop), which the preview said could be used while incapacitated x times per day (not sure if that means RT or not, probably not). But that might address some of the frail wizard concerns.

[Donquix]

I haven't played since the AD changes and pestilence addition, so I forgot those are even available. However, relying on those things to save your ass is kinda like relying on any proc-based effect; I'm not a fan. It's why I won't use 130 with 712. Being dropped off in a random room that is possibly full or or will soon be full of baddies and potentially being damaged further by the 'saving' spell trigger just isn't my idea of a safety net. Not to mention you're probably half-dead when 712 triggers anyway. Anyhow, in the random-might-save-your-ass vein, wizards have 540!

RT lock just isn't good for either profession.

rt lock is totally a problem but pestilence fires all the fucking time. even when things miss you, it's fucking hilarious.

it makes 520 look like absolute fucking garbage. it's laughable to even kind of put them in the same league. but "lol damage padding gais!" hahahahahha

edit: lol, and right on cue. i'm currently hunting my sorc's necrojuice for the week, got hit with a 6 round stun from major ewave and pestilence proceeded to immediately stun all 3 things that entered the room on their first actions.

[Fallen]

I haven't played since the AD changes and pestilence addition, so I forgot those are even available. However, relying on those things to save your ass is kinda like relying on any proc-based effect; I'm not a fan. It's why I won't use 130 with 712. Being dropped off in a random room that is possibly full or or will soon be full of baddies and potentially being damaged further by the 'saving' spell trigger just isn't my idea of a safety net. Not to mention you're probably half-dead when 712 triggers anyway. Anyhow, in the random-might-save-your-ass vein, wizards have 540!

RT lock just isn't good for either profession.

The problem is you ARE going to be locked in RT at some point or another while post-cap hunting. I agree 712 is not very useful in that regard. If you're getting hit the point of being stunned, you're fucksville anyway. It takes an AS/DS resolution for it to trigger, and surviving more than 1-2 of those is unlikely.

Pestilence is a good defensive option that doesn't take much training to maintain. AD does take a bit more work, but go ahead and play with an Ithzir Janissary or a Triton Scout if you don't think they can be a good defensive option. They'll fuck some shit up whether you're in RT or not. That being said, Scroll Infusion is a sorcerer's best defensive option.

We're getting way off-topic though.

Stone Skin needs major work. There have been good suggestions in the past. I asked that they look at them again considering the new changes.

[Tgo01]

i don't mind the haste or rapid fire nerfs to be honest

I don't mind rapid fire being nerfed either, I just think it was nerfed to the extreme. A level 15 spell with a cooldown is beyond stupid, I can't think of any other spell outside of x50 spells that even have a cooldown, much less a 3 minute base cooldown.

And now it's no longer stackable and has a flat 60 second duration. GMs went a little overboard here, maybe it's just a glimpse of what's to come though and we'll see GS slowly become the transition between Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 where almost nothing had a cooldown to where almost everything has a cooldown.

[droit]

I don't mind rapid fire being nerfed either, I just think it was nerfed to the extreme. A level 15 spell with a cooldown is beyond stupid, I can't think of any other spell outside of x50 spells that even have a cooldown, much less a 3 minute base cooldown.

And now it's no longer stackable and has a flat 60 second duration. GMs went a little overboard here, maybe it's just a glimpse of what's to come though and we'll see GS slowly become the transition between Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 where almost nothing had a cooldown to where almost everything has a cooldown.

I agree with you that the cooldown is unnecessary. The new 1 sec casting mechanic and the flat 60 second unstackable duration is enough to address everything I considered OP about original 515.

[Maerit]

I can't think of any other spell outside of x50 spells that even have a cooldown, much less a 3 minute base cooldown.


There are a handful of them. However, most are utility based. 1107 (Adrenal Surge) has 5 min CD. 1607 also has a 5 min CD.

The most comparable spell is probably 1618, which has a 3 minute CD that incurs higher mana costs every time you recast the spell before the cooldown wears off.

I feel like the best comparison is with Surge of Strength (and of lesser value Burst of Swiftness), which starts with a base 5 minutes at Rank 1 and as you learn more ranks, eventually it goes down to 2 minute CD at maximum ranks. This is the "square" equivalent power increase that has a CD and will easily pop muscles if not carefully managed. Just like 515 will easily fry your nerves if not carefully managed.

The game has a lot of examples that compare with how 515 was handled. I still think they failed to give Wizards a supplemental increase somewhere else to manage the loss of reliability that 515 provided.

[Methais]

I don't get why they're so hell bent on not letting bolts be aimed. It would address so many problems and it makes no sense to me that they think it would be OP.

Tie it to a lore if you really need to and let only stuff of that element be aimed. Tie it to CM . Fuck, even ambush for all I care at this point. Just fucking do it.

If anyone here thinks being able to aim bolts would be OP, I'm curious as to why you believe that.

[Tgo01]

1107 (Adrenal Surge) has 5 min CD. 1607 also has a 5 min CD.

1107 technically doesn't have a cooldown, its lore benefit has a cooldown. Not quite the same thing.

1607 requires a cooldown, being able to restore stamina for 7 mana at anytime would be a bit much. Not to mention the health and stamina regeneration of this effect lasts the entire 5 minute cooldown. Not only that but the health restoration portion of this spell has no cooldown and no penalty for casting within the 5 minute cooldown, unlike 515 with it's +5 mana per cast penalty.


The most comparable spell is probably 1618, which has a 3 minute CD that incurs higher mana costs every time you recast the spell before the cooldown wears off.

A scaling 9 mana penalty every time it's cast? I would take that any day of the week over a +5 mana per spell cast penalty from Rapid Fire.

[subzero]

rt lock is totally a problem but pestilence fires all the fucking time. even when things miss you, it's fucking hilarious.

it makes 520 look like absolute fucking garbage. it's laughable to even kind of put them in the same league. but "lol damage padding gais!" hahahahahha

edit: lol, and right on cue. i'm currently hunting my sorc's necrojuice for the week, got hit with a 6 round stun from major ewave and pestilence proceeded to immediately stun all 3 things that entered the room on their first actions.

Poor Stone Skin. It needs no help looking like garbage, unfortunately.

[subzero]

I don't get why they're so hell bent on not letting bolts be aimed. It would address so many problems and it makes no sense to me that they think it would be OP.

Tie it to a lore if you really need to and let only stuff of that element be aimed. Tie it to CM . Fuck, even ambush for all I care at this point. Just fucking do it.

If anyone here thinks being able to aim bolts would be OP, I'm curious as to why you believe that.

I've long thought we should be able to aim bolts. Maybe exclude small targets (mainly eyes, but I suppose you could add hands/neck to 'keep it real' - not that anyone would target hands anyway), but there isn't much reason to say we couldn't aim for the head, chest, or even limbs if desired.

[Maerit]

A scaling 9 mana penalty every time it's cast? I would take that any day of the week over a +5 mana per spell cast penalty from Rapid Fire.

Yeah, it would probably make more sense if they did something similar to 1618, so younger Wizards would have a hard to keeping 515 active all the time, but well-trained Wizards would not. Just increase the mana per refresh, and let the good times roll.

Also - stop making it so you can cast 515 on other people?

[Fallen]

Some useful stuff from a recent post of Estild's


I wouldn't exactly say this is the best case to warrant a change, but we're potentially looking at an adjustment for Immolation. And to answer PC1234's post from another thread, it's unlikely we'll allow it disable when normally cast.

I think other posters noted on this as well, but every profession has to deal with roundtime. Wizards have a huge advantage in this regard. Yes, you might be dealing with a few seconds more roundtime than before, but imagine how the sorcerer feels who stuck into the full amount. I also want to note that all those EL:A ranks will also unlock you a few more uses of Time Stop (950) each day once implemented - which we now can focus on since other things are out of the way.

There's a chance we'll be changing the 0 second castRT proc, since it appears to be unpopular. We'll consider the non-combat application, but I'm not sold on it.

GameMaster Estild

OP is here if you want to read it all: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Wizards/view/2944

[tyrant-201]

I'd cancelled my account before these changes were announced. I don't post on the boards, I didn't complain much publicly about the ELR changes, but I can say with definite certainty these changes will likely mean I'm not coming back. At least for a very long while.

Rejoice, those of you who don't like me. <3

[Fallen]

I'd cancelled my account before these changes were announced. I don't post on the boards, I didn't complain much publicly about the ELR changes, but I can say with definite certainty these changes will likely mean I'm not coming back. At least for a very long while.

Rejoice, those of you who don't like me. <3

I'll miss you, ya fucker!

[Nephelem]

Bolts should be able to aim via some training path or the other. Bolts should have a relative "size" that allows for specificity of aiming. Allow people to hit with more precision using smaller lower DF bolts. Then add "sighting" to weapons or runestaves.

[tyrant-201]

I'll miss you, ya fucker!

Likewise! I'd hoped to get the opportunity to play with you again someday. Maybe some day still!

[Fallen]

I don't get why they're so hell bent on not letting bolts be aimed. It would address so many problems and it makes no sense to me that they think it would be OP.

Tie it to a lore if you really need to and let only stuff of that element be aimed. Tie it to CM . Fuck, even ambush for all I care at this point. Just fucking do it.

If anyone here thinks being able to aim bolts would be OP, I'm curious as to why you believe that.

I think like anything else, it can be done if balanced correctly. They said they wanted to make wizards primarily bolters. Giving them the (sole) ability to aim bolts would have done that in spades.

[Methais]

Just a few clips while I was out. I'll post more shortly.

I did had a lot more casts than these with similar results, and the occasional high damage or one shot kill.

These are all with 101 fire lore, CHANNELing in offensive with both hands empty. Keep in mind that you can't learn from most lost souls and n'ecare at level 100.

>chan cra
You channel at an enormous rift crawler.
An enormous rift crawler is awakened by your attack!
CS: +530 - TD: +460 + CvA: +25 + d100: +66 == +161
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame!
... 35 points of damage!
The rift crawler is stunned!
... 10 points of damage!
Minor burns to abdomen. Looks painful.
... 10 points of damage!

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn!






You channel at an enormous rift crawler.
CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +98 == +202
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame!
... 60 points of damage!
The rift crawler is stunned!
... 40 points of damage!
Flames cook an enormous rift crawler's abdomen. Looks about medium well.
... 20 points of damage!
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to back. Looks uncomfortable.

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn!






>chan n'
You channel at a n'ecare.
CS: +530 - TD: +362 + CvA: -6 + d100: +73 == +235
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a n'ecare and he bursts into flame!
... 60 points of damage!
Flame consumes a n'ecare's right arm all the way to the shoulder.
The n'ecare's blackened jeddart-axe falls to the ground.
... 30 points of damage!
Flames incinerate muscle tissue in neck exposing the trachea. More than you ever wanted to see.
... 20 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left arm burns skin bright red.

The flames around a n'ecare continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.



>
You channel at a lost soul.
CS: +530 - TD: +412 + CvA: +25 + d100: +10 == +153
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a lost soul and he bursts into flame!
... 40 points of damage!
Massive blow obliterates the right knee.
The lost soul falters as a sickly light flows freely down its leg.
... 50 points of damage!
Body swirls violently from a strong hit to the back.
Neat effect!
... 25 points of damage!
The lost soul's head wavers as your attack passes right through it!
... 5 points of damage!
Weak blow leaves a brief imprint on the lost soul's chest!

The flames around a lost soul continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.



>chan sou
You channel at a lost soul.
CS: +530 - TD: +412 + CvA: +25 + d100: +54 == +197
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a lost soul and she bursts into flame!
... 40 points of damage!
Brutal blow to the neck sends head flying!
The head floats up and settles back in place as easily as a hat.
What is this, a haberdashery?
... 40 points of damage!
A massive blow to the left shoulder hoists the lost soul high into the air.
It hangs there a moment, suspended, before falling forward.
... 25 points of damage!
Hard blow strikes deep into the right eye socket.
Within moments the eyeball pops back out!
... 10 points of damage!
Direct assault cleaves straight through the breastbone.
Alas, it mends before you can make a wish.

The flames around a lost soul continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

[subzero]

I think like anything else, it can be done if balanced correctly. They said they wanted to make wizards primarily bolters. Giving them the (sole) ability to aim bolts would have done that in spades.

That would kinda be like giving ambush only to rogues. If bolting needs a boost to make it more viable, there's no reason to limit it to wizards only. I think just an across-the-board ability to aim bolts would be a welcome benefit to everyone who uses them. If there has to be some sort of training or limit, I'd suggest maybe limiting the ability to aim bolts based on the casters skill (lore) with a particular element (or spirit summoning, demonology, etc). Maybe for wizards, at 30 ranks of fire lore they could aim fire-based bolts (hybrid elements would only need 30 ranks of one lore to unlock aiming; dunno if that would matter in the end since I'm not up on requirements for casting those as it is) and other classes like sorcerer might need 50 ranks of demonology to aim balefire.

edit: Aiming would only be available via natively cast bolts, so wands and the like wouldn't cut it.

[Fallen]

They could tie it to 550 or something and keep it wizard specific. Other professions have different tools at their disposal that wizards will not get because they are supposed to "primarily bolt".

[Overlordz]

I have to agree. AFK scripting is far more disruptive than an MA group making use of Haste, if they're all present and actively responding to the game environment. Is the worry that these people won't find the game challenging? You can up-hunt as much as you want for an additional challenge. At cap, you can up-hunt in places like the Confluence and the Scatter. If you don't want to deal with other people, there are Grimswarm camps, which is basically instanced hunting.

I have to imagine they have some sort of master plan where now that the game is "balanced" they are free to roll out a whole host of changes to make things better for everyone else, without having to worry about Hasted hunters being insanely unbalanced. Or else, what ...the hell...was the point? If this is the case, they need to be communicating these wondrous changes to come in a major way. Problem is, they CANT because DEV is completely unreliable due to the dependence on a volunteer staff. These quality of life improvements can completely disappear if a few people leave staff, giving us a Growing Pains scenario all over again. This is all assuming big changes are even on their way, which again, we haven't heard a damned thing about to my knowledge.

I'd love to hear someone make an argument that Wizards are now more fun to hunt with these recent changes. I'm not saying Wizards are nonviable. I am not saying hunting one isn't fun. I'm saying they're not as much fun as they were before. That fun wasn't coming at the expense of any other profession or group of players. To the contrary, Wizards contributed DIRECTLY to the fun of others via Haste.

TLDR: What the fuck was point?

I'll just leave this here:

GS4-ESTILD
Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated! on 09/05/2015 01:08 PM PDT
"Yeah, we've gotten to that point and well past it. I've been doing this long enough for it not to be an issue for me, but I've specifically had to tell the newer Dev GMs to try to look past it all and if they don't want to do future wizard updates, I don't blame them. They are volunteers and have spent many hours on all these updates with little appreciation."

Some master plan...

[Fallen]

That is such fucking bullshit. You cut the legs out from under a class and expect them to be what? Grateful for it? Cry me a god damned river. You go nerfing a class, however OP they were deemed to be, and yeah, they're going to bitch. Grow a goddamned backbone and follow through with the plans to rebuild the profession you just tore down.

Whiney children.

[subzero]

Other professions have different tools at their disposal that wizards will not get because they are supposed to "primarily bolt".

That's the sort of thing they usually filter out with training points or trainable ranks/level, though. Yes, there are ways they could do it so that it's only available to wizards, but why? Diversity is good. Over the years they've eventually added a bolt to all the pure circles, so taking another step to help all bolt builds would seem to be the logical thing to do.

I think what they meant with the 'primarily bolters' comment is that wizards have more options with bolts than other classes and bolts have traditionally been the way of wizards in gemstone, not necessarily that they're the best and should always be the best at bolting because their bolts naturally do more damage (they don't) or have access to mechanics specifically designed to put them over the top (they shouldn't). Perhaps they believe the option to choose between so many elements is worth more than it really is, I dunno, but as far as being the best bolters... that doesn't really flow with the way things work.

Warriors are primarily weapon swingers. Are they somehow better than rogues or rangers or paladins in all aspects of swinging a weapon simply because that's what warriors do? How could they be when those other classes also rely on that method of attack? Same for CS attacks. Among the other three pure professions and two semis, should one amongst that group be unequivocally better than the others? I certainly don't feel any of them are better than the other. They all have lethal capabilities. But maybe semis shouldn't even have spells in the same league as the pures since they have other tools available to them. I'm sure there's a middle-ground somewhere between current CS spells and monk for those bard and ranger spells.

Hell, that style of thinking was what they nailed sorcerers with during growing pains. Sorcerers were killers. They used CS and maneuver spells. They had nothing else, unlike clerics and empaths who had healing and resurrecting as alternate means of advancement. As a result, sorcerers had spells that were more powerful than the other CS spells. That ship has motherfuckin sailed, sunk, and been replaced! Sorcerer spells were kicked in the nuts and other spells were improved to give their respective classes more power. To go back now and say, "Well, wizards are the best bolters, so they're simply gonna be better at it than anyone else" at this point is going backwards.

You can't have three attack styles (weapon, warding spells, and bolts) and anoint a single class as the master of that style in a way that leaves the others too far behind. That doesn't do the game any good. You'd have three of the ten professions as the master of 'their' method of attack and the others would be inferior. No one wants that.

I don't know what tools they supposedly don't have or won't get because they're 'primarily bolters' (aka by default, the wizard list says they're bolters by sheer numbers), but they sure seem to have the same sort of tools other classes have. They've got mana replenishment, AS/DS/TD reduction via dispels, more AS/DS reduction via utility spells, they have disabling spells, and they have random procs that can save them in those 'oh shit' moments. Am I missing something other classes have that wizards don't simply because they're supposed to be bolters and the others aren't?

I believe the much larger issue they have is that the wizard list is ancient. It's cluttered with a ton of spells that all do the same thing with a slightly different flavor. The wizard list needs an overhaul, period. Personally, I'd do away with all those bolts requiring their own spell slot. Maybe have one for bolts and one for balls. Different elements unlock at different thresholds within wizard ranks, hybrids via lore selection. You'd open up a lot of spell slots doing that (five in the wizard list by my count; Tonis bolt could be moved over to new method and cone could either remain or take one of the new wizard slots while opening up one in the 500s). Maybe too many, but they'd have have more opportunities to support different builds with those slots. They could be AS or CS-based spells; some new AS spell(s) could have some sort of non-bolt flavor. Even if they weren't all something each archetype would want or use, I think wizards would still come out ahead. That's a whole other can of worms, though.

[drauz]

I kind of mirror Fallen's thoughts. Why was this needed at all? Were wizards just flying thru the "new content"? Wouldn't a self cast only haste have fixed their concerns? Like Methias said on the main forums, its like they are changing things just for the sake of change.

Did the bard haste get any changes?

[phantasm]

Back when Naos was at the controls, he used to always comment how he would like to improve this or that, or give wizards this or that nice spell but he couldn't do it until Haste and Rapidfire were nerfed.

[drauz]

http://i.imgur.com/YLsZ4x7.png

[Fiend394]

Hilarious when things over the years affected others.. and people said "get over it!"... ROFL.. now all you MA'ing haste bitches realize "Oh shit.. it's going to take 5 minutes to fry as opposed to 2!".. LoL.. stop complaining people.

Actually now it's impossible to fry, because I cancelled my account.

Yea, the character is just "fine." But the nerf did NOTHING positive to ANYONE. What the fuck was the point?

This fucking crabs in a bucket mentality around this game is toxic. If a crab tries to get out of the bucket, another one pulls him in. All your mentality does is perpetuate the removal of fun things (such as not spending time hunting and spending time talking to friends).

Give one way this change was positive for any class or player?

Times up...there was no positive reason for this change. Only a nerf for a nerf's sake. Thats the issue with it. If the problem was "Uhh, Wizards are getting too much of the finite experience released per day and this change is to allow everyone in the game a fair chance at the finite resource released every day so thats why we are extending their hunting times and by proxy increasing the amount of times they die" - I would be just fine with it.

Thing is, no one was struggling because Wizards were doing ok. In fact, Wizards doing OK was good for everyone. Now, less wizards in the game. Less spells for everyone. Less people who want to play. Less money for the comapany. Another nail in the GS coffin.

I won't be coming back to the well except to reactivate my account to sell my nervestaff, wizard and Paladin.

I've maintained an active account for near 22 years now, give or take a month her and there. But I don't see the need to throw money down that well anymore.

So yea, *"Oh shit.. it's going to take 5 minutes to fry as opposed to 2!".. LoL.. stop complaining people.*

Took me 45 seconds to cancel my account. Now I have an extra 2 minutes and 15 seconds to write a post telling you that you are a fucking moron.

[Methais]

>Part of the ELR should have consisted of doing away with earth/air/water/fire lore and replacing it with more role specific stuff. But that would probably require a spell review, which is what wizards have been in need of for years anyway.

Changing the mangler skills is considerably more involved than a spell review. Not impossible, but not easy. We've considered adding or changing skills on several different occasions -- including for the elemental lores, incidentally -- but the payoff hasn't yet justified the work it would require.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Wizard%20Spells/view/2005


What's the payoff that justified all the work you guys put into nerfing wizards?

Balance, long-term game stability, and enabling future changes that would have been completely out of the question otherwise.

Incidentally, the actual work wasn't in nerfing those particular spells. Gutting the spells and replacing them with nothing would have taken ten seconds. The work was in coming up with replacements that do meet the needs of balance, long-term game stability, and allow us to make future changes that would have been out of the question otherwise.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Wizard%20Spells/view/2008


>Like what? Mind giving a couple examples? Or is there nothing on the table to draw any examples from?

Yes. I do mind, actually. As far as player-facing changes are concerned, I've spent the majority of my GM career following up on promises that former staff members made and never carried through on, instead of on areas that I think are more deserving. My collegues can say the same thing.

I am determined not to leave my successors in the same predicament by making my own rash promises that I then don't follow through on because I decide to become a Tibetan monk, or because of some unpredictable family or professional issue that would prevent me from remaining on staff.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Wizard%20Spells/view/2013


>While this is perfectly reasonable and understandable, it makes no sense whatsoever to have rolled out the nerfs before the improvements were even worked on, much less ready for release.

If we waited for every possible thing to be prepared before rolling out a single change, we'd be waiting twenty years for GSV.

And then we'd still have things that were underpowered, overpowered, and just missing, because those things often don't become apparent on paper design. (If they were apparent, all those spells would never have been implemented that way in the first place, incidentally).

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Wizard%20Spells/view/2018

TLDR: Simu has no fucking idea what they're doing or plan to do.

[elcidcannon]

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Wizard%20Spells/view/2005



http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Wizard%20Spells/view/2008



http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Wizard%20Spells/view/2013



http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Wizard%20Spells/view/2018

TLDR: Simu has no fucking idea what they're doing or plan to do.

That's not how I read it. Just because he declined to tell you what the plans are doesn't mean there are no plans.

[Methais]

That's not how I read it. Just because he declined to tell you what the plans are doesn't mean there are no plans.

I considered that too, despite him not even saying something like "there's more in store for wizards, we just don't want to give out any details yet" until I read this one:


If we waited for every possible thing to be prepared before rolling out a single change, we'd be waiting twenty years for GSV.

In other words, nerf now, fix RSN, just like always.

With the massive uproar that's been taking place, if there were more plans for wizards, I think they would have been stumbling over themselves to say so, even if they weren't ready to give any actual details on it.

So far we haven't heard one thing indicating that wizards are going to get anything to compensate for these nerfs.

Not to mention he also inadvertently admitted that GS will never be balanced. But let's keep nerfing anyway in the name of balance. But hey, "long-term stability" due to nerfs that run more and more players off. Seems like a solid plan to me.

[elcidcannon]

With the massive uproar that's been taking place, if there were more plans for wizards, I think they would have been stumbling over themselves to say so, even if they weren't ready to give any actual details on it.


I definitely agree with that. Again, being an objective observer, I'm holding faith that Simu is telling the truth and that these are precursors/prerequisites for some other, more positive, changes down the line.

But with the feedback that's been given.....I'm shocked there hasn't been at least a "well hey....this [insert general idea] is now viable."

[Viekn]

I definitely agree with that. Again, being an objective observer, I'm holding faith that Simu is telling the truth and that these are precursors/prerequisites for some other, more positive, changes down the line.

But with the feedback that's been given.....I'm shocked there hasn't been at least a "well hey....this [insert general idea] is now viable."

I'd wager not a day goes by on these forums where someone doesn't mention "savants", .."RSN!" Based on that, even if I were a GM and knew GSV were right around the corner give or take 30-60 days and some cool stuff was coming, I wouldn't say shit if I were any of them. Doesn't mean we won't like it any less, but I certainly don't blame them for saying nothing, whether changes are coming or not.

[Astray]

Savants RSN though.

[Fallen]

I'd wager not a day goes by on these forums where someone doesn't mention "savants", .."RSN!" Based on that, even if I were a GM and knew GSV were right around the corner give or take 30-60 days and some cool stuff was coming, I wouldn't say shit if I were any of them. Doesn't mean we won't like it any less, but I certainly don't blame them for saying nothing, whether changes are coming or not.

No one has a problem with them waiting to say shit until it's almost done. The problem arises when they implement part one of two without the part two being anywhere near ready.

If it IS almost ready, why wouldn't they wait to release it with the nerfs? It just doesn't make sense.

[Viekn]

No one has a problem with them waiting to say shit until it's almost done. The problem arises when they implement part one of two without the part two being anywhere near ready.

If it IS almost ready, why wouldn't they wait to release it with the nerfs? It just doesn't make sense.

Unless they can't complete the future project without knowing for sure how the nerfs will eventually be finalized? I'd figure once they rolled out the nerfs, they knew there'd be pushback and they'd have to tweak them a bit. So roll them out, get the feedback, get them finalized, then they are free to complete whatever improvements/changes were dependent on the nerfs happening first. Just a thought. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. It works out about 6 times in 10, but sometimes those other 4 times are a real bitch.

[rolfard]

New hunting area with environmental haste RSN

[Fallen]

Unless they can't complete the future project without knowing for sure how the nerfs will eventually be finalized? I'd figure once they rolled out the nerfs, they knew there'd be pushback and they'd have to tweak them a bit. So roll them out, get the feedback, get them finalized, then they are free to complete whatever improvements/changes were dependent on the nerfs happening first. Just a thought. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. It works out about 6 times in 10, but sometimes those other 4 times are a real bitch.

They have a test server. If they really want to test a change out first, why not allow players to use it? Also, isn't plat supposed to try new mechanics first? Why not try there before sending it to prime? They wouldn't even turn on quick migration of skills over these changes. I can't really blame people for simply closing their accounts. They've been playing for years around certain builds, then they change them all at once and give you 1 fixskill to try to make it work. This isn't some minor change, it is a potentially character breaking shift in game design they implemented without giving any sort of indication regarding their long term fix. Apparently, we're supposed to swallow that they can't share that information because they're afraid it might take them 9 years to deliver it if a GM or 2 leaves staff.

Wonderful. Very confidence boosting.

[Astray]

Could you imagine if Simu had to do weekly implementations like some free MMOs? They'd lose their fucking minds.

[Fallen]

Could you imagine if Simu had to do weekly implementations like some free MMOs? They'd lose their fucking minds.

They stopped doing even rough sketches of what they have planned a year in advance. 'Nuff said.

[Astray]

They stopped doing even rough sketches of what they have planned a year in advance. 'Nuff said.

Oh man. That's not gross, that's fucking filthy.

[Fallen]

Oh man. That's not gross, that's fucking filthy.

Viekn has a point that given the state of the game, this is a GOOD thing. It just really, really isn't when it comes to large-scale nerfs.

[Astray]

Viekn has a point that given the state of the game, this is a GOOD thing. It just really, really isn't when it comes to large-scale nerfs.

The game is in the state it's in because of piss poor planning and a lack of development. Had things been done properly, like hiring developers (even part time) and not relying on goddamn volunteers, I wouldn't be putting "SAVANTS RSN" all over the place.

But I digress. SAVANTS RSN GUIZ

[Soulance]

One thing I do like is that they are at least trying to work a bit with what they've rolled out. They haven't necessarily said, "here are the changes, deal with them."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy about some of the changes and if I felt it would do any good, I'd cancel my Wizard account right now as well. There is basically nothing I can do with him aside from enchanting and spelling up my other characters. Sad that a 93 Wizard has been reduced to that. Again, I haven't taken a TON of time to try to figure out different ways to hunt, but I don't know that I should really have to change my ENTIRE BUILD to hunt. I wanted to be a lightning/air Wizard. Now I HAVE to be a fire wizard if I want to do any type of hunting and not die every time I go out.

Extremely frustrating. The lore changes are cool but garbage and force people to train in things that aren't relevant to what they want to be. Isn't that the overall idea of GS? To make a character how YOU want to play it?

[Fallen]

The game is in the state it's in because of piss poor planning and a lack of development. Had things been done properly, like hiring developers (even part time) and not relying on goddamn volunteers, I wouldn't be putting "SAVANTS RSN" all over the place.

But I digress. SAVANTS RSN GUIZ

I don't blame current staff for past broken promises. Only Whatley is responsible for the lack of paid coders. The handling of this whole debacle, however, can't be pinned on anyone other than the current DEV. No one was demanding GMs make good on their promise to nerf Haste, Rapid Fire, and Immolation.

[elcidcannon]

Curious....when is the last time Simu put out anything about Savants?

The most recent thing I could find was this, in March of last year: "I do think Savants will eventually happen, just not in the near future."
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Savants/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Savants/view/43

I'd argue the "Savants RSN" cry is really just a player-perpetuated characterization of Simu's apathy for promises of change? Because they certainly aren't saying it.

[Fallen]

Curious....when is the last time Simu put out anything about Savants?

The most recent thing I could find was this, in March of last year: "I do think Savants will eventually happen, just not in the near future."
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Savants/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Savants/view/43

I'd argue the "Savants RSN" cry is really just a player-perpetuated characterization of Simu's apathy for promises of change? Because they certainly aren't saying it.

Well, Minor Mental is out. I suppose they could just stop there, but that seems awfully half-assed. They could just change the spell circle to Mental, I guess, and drop the "minor".

There's a whole spell list planned for major mental: https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Major_Mental
Savant too: https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Savant_Base

Obviously, they don't need to implement any of it, but they've certainly laid a hell of a lot of groundwork.

Savants are definitely one of those areas where they shouldn't say shit until a week before they're released and Kenstrom has NPC Savants mind fucking all of the Landing to death.