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Thread: Thread for Things That Made You Frown Today

  1. #14611

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    Quote Originally Posted by Latrinsorm View Post
    You never know what's going to stick with a kid. Your father could have made an offhand homophobic comment 20 years ago that everyone else forgot 19 years, 364 days, and 23 hours ago... but to your brother it was addressed to him from the person who is supposed to love him unconditionally. This is what makes homophobic language so insidious: not many people would intentionally use bigoted language around the target (which is why every racist joke starts with looking over both shoulders) because not many people are really bigoted, but it's a lot harder to tell if someone is gay than if someone is black. Combine this with how people let their guard down around family (both in what they externalize and what they internalize), and you can see how this scenario is plausible.

    I assume from your volunteering your parents' religion that they have not expressed a lot of tolerance for alternative sexualities. Why are you surprised that your brother would take the opportunity to not only divorce himself from that tradition, but separate himself (however nominally) from those memories? Imagine what it would be like to grow up with your father (unbeknownst to him) telling you he hated you, that you were going to hell, that you were an abomination, also that he loved you, that you were the most important thing in his life... and tell me how your relationship wouldn't be complicated.

    Or imagine what it would be like to rear children as that father, and tell me how you wouldn't feel guilt (again, we're talking about Catholics here). You can't go back and unsay all the things you said, but maybe you can go out of your way to help out your child now. Penance is not an outrageous concept in this scenario. I don't know how well off your parents are, but it's not like they're buying him a yacht, and I would also consider the implications (even if only subconscious) of specifically giving money for Christmas as opposed to an anniversary or birthday.

    .

    Being transgender doesn't make your brother any more or less of a saint than he was before, or your parents any more or less of devils. Maybe he's taking advantage, maybe they deserve it. What would Jesus do? Not get bent out of shape, I think.
    My father is far from a saint, but it takes a special combination of cruelty, greed, and heartlessness to do things the way my brother did them. There was no discussion ahead of time, which is what a grownup should do (my brother's 31 years old). If there really were those kinds of deep-seated issues, fine, sit down and talk them out. This was cowardly, mean, and underhanded, in my opinion. And the sheer gall to immediately follow it up with a sob story about how his girlfriend's kids won't have any presents under the tree, so would my parents please help out just... stuns me. It's like it somehow never occurred to him what impact this would have on my Dad.

    And my parents (specifically my dad... my mom's retired) make a very comfortable living. Comfortable enough that my brother's Christmas present (about a week ago, before all this went down) was a gift of $19,000.00 and some change to pay off a loan. And that's far from the first time that they've lent my brother/sister significant financial assistance. They put 30k down on her house so she could afford it, have bought her at least two cars that I know of... I could go on and on. They've supported her even as she pursued a lifestyle that goes against their religious beliefs. My parents have worked hard to make sure that my sister/brother knew that they loved her/him no matter what, and that family was always family.

    The whole thing just makes me sick. It's obviously a complicated issue, and I don't doubt that he had reasons for doing what he did. But it's inexcusable in my mind to not A) say something about it beforehand, B) consider the implications, and C) then immediately ask for more money. And to spring it all on the family at the holidays just exacerbates the whole issue.
    -Just Dan


  2. #14612

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    Sounds like my sister and brother-in-law. Took 8 years of watching them take advantage of my parents while at the same time treating them like shit for me to finally say "You know what? I don't need pieces of shit like this in my life just because they are family."

    I don't know why we feel we have to help out family members and keep them a part of our life when if they weren't a family member we would have ditched them long ago.

    Someone build me a time machine dammit so I can warn my younger self!

    And what really gets me is if you do decide to write out a family member from your life, even though they are a bunch of assholes, you're the bad guy. Someone explain this to me. Someone. Anyone.
    Last edited by Tgo01; 12-19-2013 at 02:19 PM.

  3. #14613

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    Quote Originally Posted by RSR View Post
    Clearly proper spelling and grammar are not expectations they have of you.
    No, not really. They are really based on how much revenue I bring in.

    It's harder than you think to spell check posting on an old battery-shot iPhone 3G. I refuse to buy another phone right now out of principle.

  4. #14614

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tgo01 View Post
    And what really gets me is if you do decide to write out a family member from your life, even though they are a bunch of assholes, you're the bad guy. Someone explain this to me. Someone. Anyone.
    There exist appropriate times you must cutoff family, but the whole idea behind family is that they stick together. Most would agree that action should only be taken after all other options have been exhausted. Sure they may be assholes, but they are you're assholes.

    *I am in no way saying you are bad/good/wrong/right in your particular situation. Just answering your question with my humble 2 cents.

  5. #14615

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnticorRifling View Post
    The issue is saying "Hey fuck you guys" while at the same time saying "Hey give me free shit"
    Like I said, complicated. Also, maybe this is just me but the way I was raised, if you screwed up you got told about it. Maybe you want to hold JustDan's dad's hand and tell him what a precious snowflake he is and whatever he did wrong wasn't really that wrong and he doesn't deserve any criticism or repercussions for it. I guess you can do that if you want. Or you can jump to conclusions and assume his dad never did anything wrong and is entirely in the right. I guess you can do that too. Seems a little unrealistic to me, but you're free to your ridiculously naive opinion, and I won't criticize you for how verifiably absurd it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustDan
    If there really were those kinds of deep-seated issues, fine, sit down and talk them out.
    We agree that your brother's method of coping with a struggle you have no grasp of whatsoever is not satisfactory to you. Is that his problem or yours?
    It's like it somehow never occurred to him what impact this would have on my Dad.
    That's the thing, though. You're primarily considering it from your parents' side, how much it hurts them. What about how much it helps your brother? Surely your parents would rather be hurt than have him be hurt. I mean just look at the language you use: your brother is a cruel, greedy, heartless, underhanded, mean coward. Hobbes would find that a little much, meanwhile your father is just "far from a saint", and you tout all the work he's put in to the relationship while questioning whether your brother has any baggage growing up a gay Catholic in the 80s. That doesn't strike you as even a little one-sided?
    And my parents (specifically my dad... my mom's retired) make a very comfortable living. Comfortable enough that my brother's Christmas present (about a week ago, before all this went down) was a gift of $19,000.00 and some change to pay off a loan. And that's far from the first time that they've lent my brother/sister significant financial assistance. They put 30k down on her house so she could afford it, have bought her at least two cars that I know of... I could go on and on. They've supported her even as she pursued a lifestyle that goes against their religious beliefs. My parents have worked hard to make sure that my sister/brother knew that they loved her/him no matter what, and that family was always family.
    My point is that there was a long time before your parents knew anything about your brother's sexuality, and the comments they made then don't just vanish, even if they forgot them 5 minutes after they said them. A person doesn't become gay when they come out, and none of us get do-overs for the hurtful things we've said. And if your parents have cash to burn, isn't that all the more reason not to care about them giving more?
    Hasta pronto, porque la vida no termina aqui...
    America, stop pushing. I know what I'm doing.

  6. #14616

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    Quote Originally Posted by Latrinsorm View Post
    Like I said, complicated. Also, maybe this is just me but the way I was raised, if you screwed up you got told about it. Maybe you want to hold JustDan's dad's hand and tell him what a precious snowflake he is and whatever he did wrong wasn't really that wrong and he doesn't deserve any criticism or repercussions for it. I guess you can do that if you want. Or you can jump to conclusions and assume his dad never did anything wrong and is entirely in the right. I guess you can do that too. Seems a little unrealistic to me, but you're free to your ridiculously naive opinion, and I won't criticize you for how verifiably absurd it is. We agree that your brother's method of coping with a struggle you have no grasp of whatsoever is not satisfactory to you. Is that his problem or yours?That's the thing, though. You're primarily considering it from your parents' side, how much it hurts them. What about how much it helps your brother? Surely your parents would rather be hurt than have him be hurt. I mean just look at the language you use: your brother is a cruel, greedy, heartless, underhanded, mean coward. Hobbes would find that a little much, meanwhile your father is just "far from a saint", and you tout all the work he's put in to the relationship while questioning whether your brother has any baggage growing up a gay Catholic in the 80s. That doesn't strike you as even a little one-sided?My point is that there was a long time before your parents knew anything about your brother's sexuality, and the comments they made then don't just vanish, even if they forgot them 5 minutes after they said them. A person doesn't become gay when they come out, and none of us get do-overs for the hurtful things we've said. And if your parents have cash to burn, isn't that all the more reason not to care about them giving more?
    So... you raise a lot of valid points, when considered in a vacuum. And I realize that you don't know me or my family, so your points might have academic validity. There is a lot more to the whole story that I frankly don't feel comfortable sharing, as it's family stuff that I'd rather not open up to prolonged debate and judgement. Given that, I can't really debate your points on merit, as I'm unwilling to throw more evidence into the discussion.

    I feel, with my entire being, that what my brother did was a truly despicable thing. I have made clear to him exactly how I feel, in no uncertain terms, and what I believe he has done to the relationship between he and I. I've also made it crystal clear that his relationship with the rest of the family is entirely his business, and his problem (if there even is a problem). This is between he and I, not a donnybrook that I want to draw the entire family into. I also realize that this is all about feelings, and I've long believed that feelings are valid, and don't have to make sense. I happen to believe that my feelings do make sense, but most people generally do. My brother can feel like he's in the right, and that's valid as well. Where I get my hackles up is the collateral damage that he seems to have either maliciously or carelessly inflicted on my Dad. No matter what motivation he might try to claim, I can't be OK with his actions. And to then ask for more money just astounds me (and makes me believe the careless motivation over the malicious one). If it's just ignorance of the pain he's caused, then that's a staggeringly selfish act. If it's a malicious, deep-seated need to strike back at him for some past wrongs, fine, but you don't get to also stay fastened to the money teat (and I can't help but feel it's a pretty cowardly, passive-aggressive act, if the intent was to cause pain).
    -Just Dan


  7. #14617

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    Quote Originally Posted by Latrinsorm View Post
    Like I said, complicated. Also, maybe this is just me but the way I was raised, if you screwed up you got told about it. Maybe you want to hold JustDan's dad's hand and tell him what a precious snowflake he is and whatever he did wrong wasn't really that wrong and he doesn't deserve any criticism or repercussions for it. I guess you can do that if you want. Or you can jump to conclusions and assume his dad never did anything wrong and is entirely in the right. I guess you can do that too. Seems a little unrealistic to me, but you're free to your ridiculously naive opinion, and I won't criticize you for how verifiably absurd it is.
    In what I quoted please show me what led you to believe I thought dad was, in any way shape or form, wrong or right in his past (and unknown to me) actions. I'll wait.

    I'm saying the son/daughter/latrinsorm is wrong for saying hey fuck you and hey gimmie free shit at the same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkein View Post
    That is some weird shit.

  8. #14618

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnticorRifling View Post
    In what I quoted please show me what led you to believe I thought dad was, in any way shape or form, wrong or right in his past (and unknown to me) actions. I'll wait.

    I'm saying the son/daughter/latrinsorm is wrong for saying hey fuck you and hey gimmie free shit at the same time.
    The wonderful thing about Latrinsorms, is Latrinsorms are never wrong. They're just right on a different axis (and their bottoms are made out of sprongs).
    Quote Originally Posted by JustDan
    your points might have academic validity.
    See!!??
    If it's just ignorance of the pain he's caused, then that's a staggeringly selfish act. If it's a malicious, deep-seated need to strike back at him for some past wrongs, fine, but you don't get to also stay fastened to the money teat (and I can't help but feel it's a pretty cowardly, passive-aggressive act, if the intent was to cause pain).
    Let me put it this way: suppose you had a broken arm that set crooked. You go to the doctor and he recommends re-breaking it. Obviously this is a painful thing, but the doctor is neither ignorant nor malicious - the pain is a necessary evil for a greater good. It's a stupid, silly world that results in these dilemmas, but it's not the doctor who made it that way.

    My suggestion is that your brother was broken and set crooked. Not because he was gay, but because of how your family talked about gays and talked about family. It would be more straightforward to deal with if he was simply abused from the start: a clean break, and move on with no contact. But he wasn't, he was given love while told what a horrible monster he was. You're not getting out of that in any straightforward way, and this is how you end up with apparently paradoxical behavior. More than apparent, actual. My suggestion is your brother loves your father, so he has no reason to break all contact... but love doesn't wash away scars.

    I'm not telling you you should be happy about the situation, I just think it would be better for you and everyone in the long run to take a charitable view. Lemmas are axioms and dilemmas are puzzles: ignoring the second horn makes it seem axiomatic but doesn't make that horn go away.
    Hasta pronto, porque la vida no termina aqui...
    America, stop pushing. I know what I'm doing.

  9. #14619

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    Is this something (similar) that you are going thru yourself Latrinsorm with your parents?

  10. #14620

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlanteax View Post
    Is this something (similar) that you are going thru yourself Latrinsorm with your parents?
    No.

    But I am a fringe person (perhaps my least controversial claim ever?), so I have an easier time empathizing, especially with people on other fringes.
    Hasta pronto, porque la vida no termina aqui...
    America, stop pushing. I know what I'm doing.

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