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graysun
07-07-2008, 03:27 PM
Am interested in others' perspectives on a few big-ticket training decisions I am about to face with the ranger.

Currently 66th level half-elf OHE hiding ambusher (council-member) hunting in Vítull, Wyneb, Stronghold, and Keen without too much trouble. Planning to stay on the training path below until a fix-stat around 85th (from TP-maxing to stat-maxing) when the TPs will allow for a comparable training setup.

I know it's hard to mess up a ranger, and there isn't any one "best" training path, but would be grateful for any comments/suggestions/advice, particularly relating to the following:

(1) Is 100 ranks of ambush enough for a hiding OHE ambusher until cap? The second 100 ranks seem really expensive for the modest increase in crit damage dealt.

(2) In 7x HCP torso chain, will training 30 ranks of armor (from 40 to 70) be worth the improved crit divisor for arms and legs only?

(3) Having all our spells except 650 and 140, which should I get first - and how soon? Are either of them necessary or worthwhile pre-cap?

(4) How helpful are the first 10-15 ranks of Blessing Lore (+4 or +5 bonus) to hiding? Am considering going to 6 or 11 or 15 ranks for the small DS and hiding bonuses.

Current path - at 70th:

2x:
OHE
Hide

1.5x:
Ambush (Stop at 100 ranks until post-cap?)

1x:
CM (have 5th rank ShadowMastery, 3rd rank Disarm)
Dodge
Physical
Shield
Perception
Survival
Harness
Spells (70 spells at 72nd - 640/130, on the way to 661/140 at cap)
Armor (70 ranks at 75th or stay at 40 a while?)

0.5x:
Climb
Swim
First Aid

Others (ranks):
Items (20)
Sharing (15)
Arcane (12)

Stunseed
07-07-2008, 04:53 PM
Stunseed (at level 92), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 210 110
Shield Use.........................| 193 93
Combat Maneuvers...................| 226 126
Edged Weapons......................| 285 185
Ambush.............................| 193 93
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 120 30
Physical Fitness...................| 193 93
Dodging............................| 193 93
Arcane Symbols.....................| 45 9
Magic Item Use.....................| 105 25
Harness Power......................| 192 92
Spirit Mana Control................| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 105 25
Stalking and Hiding................| 193 93
Perception.........................| 193 93
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 120 30

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 30

Spell Lists
Ranger.............................| 50

Stunseed, your Combat Maneuver training is as follows:

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Combat Movement cmovement 2
Combat Focus focus 3
Dirtkick dirtkick 4
Disarm Weapon disarm 4
Sweep sweep 3
Feint feint 4

Available Combat Maneuver Training Points: 4
Unlearning Combat Maneuver Training Points: 5

graysun
07-07-2008, 05:58 PM
You're a tank, Stun....was your torso chain comparable to the hauberk you're wearing? If so, are you noticing much of a difference?

I'd drop hiding and pick up more manuevers like you, if I weren't so addicted to 2-second hiding and 1-second sneaking. Maybe someday.

ceran
07-07-2008, 06:04 PM
(1) Should be fine with 1x ambushing.

(2) Augmented chain has helped me a lot but I seem to be a magnet for hits to my arms and legs.

(3) I went for 650 (for the dodge ranks) both are a situational spell to m. Mostly use 650 for foraging tasks.

(4) I found the blessing ranks helped but I now hunt self spelled plus wizard strength.

This is me at 79 trains and I had no problems solo hunting.

Skills:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks

Armor Use......................................| 170 70
Shield Use......................................| 184 84
Combat Maneuvers......................| 197 97
Edged Weapons............................| 262 162
Ambush..........................................| 182 82
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 25 5
Physical Fitness............................| 200 100
Dodging.........................................| 165 65
Magic Item Use.............................| 70 15
Harness Power..............................| 175 75
Spirit Mana Control......................| 120 30
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.............| 54 11
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 50 10
Survival.......................................... .| 173 73
Stalking and Hiding......................| 201 101
Perception......................................| 181 81
Climbing.........................................| 122 31
Swimming.......................................| 122 31
First Aid.........................................| 165 65

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.....................................| 25

Spell Lists
Ranger............................................ .| 50

Stunseed
07-07-2008, 06:15 PM
I noticed in the endgame that War Griffins liked to snap my neck wearing partial chain. If it wasn't for that one tidbit, I would have stayed in augmented chain.

You won't have time to hide in most end-game situations, unless you plan on failing to fight one-on-one. OTF is crazy for swarms, as are the bowels. I've never hunted the temple in Teras but from logs it looks the same.

droit
07-13-2008, 05:33 AM
(1) Is 100 ranks of ambush enough for a hiding OHE ambusher until cap? The second 100 ranks seem really expensive for the modest increase in crit damage dealt.

101 ranks of ambush is plenty.


(2) In 7x HCP torso chain, will training 30 ranks of armor (from 40 to 70) be worth the improved crit divisor for arms and legs only?

I am extremely happy with my HCP augmented chain.


(3) Having all our spells except 650 and 140, which should I get first - and how soon? Are either of them necessary or worthwhile pre-cap?

I'd recommend stopping at 130 and training ranger spells to at least 71. The extra ranger ranks provide all sorts of bonuses (like dodge ranks and TD) and make all of our attack spells more potent (a cast of Sounds with 71 ranger ranks, for example, will drop a mob's DS by 50 for a mere 7 mana)


(4) How helpful are the first 10-15 ranks of Blessing Lore (+4 or +5 bonus) to hiding? Am considering going to 6 or 11 or 15 ranks for the small DS and hiding bonuses.

I'm currently at 60 summoning ranks and 11 blessing ranks, but I plan to take summoning to 80 and blessing to 21. I don't have the lore chart in front of me, but I believe this plan allows you to reach all but the very last thresholds on the summoning lore list while gaining the benefits of between 3 and 6 thresholds for most of the spells that are affected by blessing lore. I think it's a decent trade.


You won't have time to hide in most end-game situations, unless you plan on failing to fight one-on-one. OTF is crazy for swarms, as are the bowels. I've never hunted the temple in Teras but from logs it looks the same.

There is always time to hide. A ranger with 2x hiding, spells, shadow mastery and a few lores will be sniffed out by only the most perceptive creatures (like griffins, but that's what 608 is for). It's worth the extra 2 seconds for the dramatically increased chance of a death crit and hiding is still one of the most powerful defensive tactics in the game.

Drew
07-13-2008, 08:39 AM
Torso chain has a hidden weakness in AvD. The difference between torso chain and augmented chain can be as much as 20, which means that switching to aug chain can be like getting an extra 4 enchants. That AvD deficit can really make a difference. That's on top of the regular disadvantage of having your arms and legs not covered with the crit protection from chain.

g++
07-14-2008, 10:42 AM
It's worth the extra 2 seconds for the dramatically increased chance of a death crit and hiding is still one of the most powerful defensive tactics in the game.

Not in my experience. I think most people who hide in the end game do so because they think they have too when in reality slight tactical changes would make them more efficent and less vulnerable if they just went toe to toe.

Drayal
07-14-2008, 11:54 AM
I hid to hide from casts. That's all really.

g++
07-14-2008, 01:04 PM
Thing is after 70 80ish your expending like a thousand tps for the same functionality you got 50 trains ago for a hundred. If you roll back those tps into cmans, pt training, additional spells, better armor etc. You can WTF pwn the casting mobs instead of hiding from them.

Mtenda
07-14-2008, 03:15 PM
I think the most important part of the point Droit was making is "the dramatically increased chance of a death crit"

g++
07-14-2008, 03:18 PM
Maybe with OHE its dramatic, with a bow 90% chance of instant death vs 95% chance isnt all that stellar especially since it takes 2 seconds to hide and 3 to fire.

Mtenda
07-14-2008, 03:21 PM
I would like to point out that both OHE's and Bows suck! :welcome:

g++
07-14-2008, 03:27 PM
Yah let me know when you realize taking 7 seconds and an ass wooping to do 100 unnecessary points of damage gets tiresome and you fixskill into a bow user so I can laugh at you.

Drew
07-14-2008, 03:36 PM
Let know know how that bow thing works on full plate wearing critters :)

g++
07-14-2008, 03:39 PM
cman ignore, kill other

Mtenda
07-14-2008, 03:44 PM
Yah let me know when you realize taking 7 seconds and an ass wooping to do 100 unnecessary points of damage gets tiresome and you fixskill into a bow user so I can laugh at you.

No good ambusher ambushes with a weapon that takes 7 seconds unless they are doing it from the open and really need that claid weighting. Unnecessary damage? A one shot kill is a one shot kill is a one shot kill. I'll fixskill to a bow user when I'm ready to be a wimp.

BigWorm
07-14-2008, 03:49 PM
No good ambusher ambushes with a weapon that takes 7 seconds unless they are doing it from the open and really need that claid weighting. Unnecessary damage? A one shot kill is a one shot kill is a one shot kill. I'll fixskill to a bow user when I'm ready to be a wimp.

Uhh, I'm a capped ambusher from hiding and its a bitch how slow it is with even a short sword. I can't imagine RT would get better with a THW.

Drew
07-14-2008, 03:50 PM
I do 7 second ambushes. But it's with a claid weighted mattock, basically kills even the most incredibly armoured critters with 1 shot.

g++
07-14-2008, 03:54 PM
First off I said 7 assuming 1 or 2 to hide 5 or 6 to swing. Second off if your in game persona thinks bow users are wimps thats fine. Maybe realizing your not playing the game right now would be a useful step in the direction of not losing your mind. If you as a person feel people in gemstone who use bows are wimps, seek help immediately. My point is simply longbow = 3 second, 2 handed sword = more both result in instant death assuming your not firing at full plate which ill cede arrows le suck against. Could always carry a xbow though.

BigWorm
07-14-2008, 03:54 PM
I do 7 second ambushes. But it's with a claid weighted mattock, basically kills even the most incredibly armoured critters with 1 shot.

So like a handaxe with +2 sec RT?

Unless you're claiming to be able to one shot constructs.

Danical
07-14-2008, 03:54 PM
No good ambusher ambushes with a weapon that takes 7 seconds unless they are doing it from the open and really need that claid weighting. Unnecessary damage? A one shot kill is a one shot kill is a one shot kill. I'll fixskill to a bow user when I'm ready to be a wimp.

Something tells me you've not reached the endgame yet.

HHHHHHHUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR R.

Danical
07-14-2008, 03:57 PM
So like a handaxe with +2 sec RT?

Unless you're claiming to be able to one shot constructs.

Constructs are immune to death crits now :(

I used to one-shot them with my E X-bow before the changes because I had nearly 600 AS.

Mtenda
07-14-2008, 03:58 PM
Big Worm - It's also a bitch how inefficient a short sword is being a crush/slash/puncture weapon with low AVD's and DF.

Drew - If it is a mattock base then it is actually possible to get as low as 6 seconds on an ambush round time.

You guys are using haste when necessary right? Personally I use it more than I need it just because I can and I like the sense of security.

Mtenda
07-14-2008, 04:01 PM
First off I said 7 assuming 1 or 2 to hide 5 or 6 to swing. Second off if your in game persona thinks bow users are wimps thats fine. Maybe realizing your not playing the game right now would be a useful step in the direction of not losing your mind. If you as a person feel people in gemstone who use bows are wimps, seek help immediately. My point is simply longbow = 3 second, 2 handed sword = more both result in instant death assuming your not firing at full plate which ill cede arrows le suck against. Could always carry a xbow though.

I wasn't trying to be a dick. Just poking a little fun. I have actually tried the bow route and just didn't like it personally. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

BigWorm
07-14-2008, 04:02 PM
Big Worm - It's also a bitch how inefficient a short sword is being a crush/slash/puncture weapon with low AVD's and DF.

Drew - If it is a mattock base then it is actually possible to get as low as 6 seconds on an ambush round time.

You guys are using haste when necessary right? Personally I use it more than I need it just because I can and I like the sense of security.

Short sword is mostly slash and puncture, making it great on necks. You should tell Stunseen how much short swords suck.

I use the shit out of haste and Tonis is even better. I like my 1 sec MCW short sword just fine thank you.

BigWorm
07-14-2008, 04:03 PM
Constructs are immune to death crits now :(

I used to one-shot them with my E X-bow before the changes because I had nearly 600 AS.

I knew that because its why almost no one bothers to kill them any more. Brain fart.

I used to be able to leg and take out their heads with an axe before they pulled the rug out from under me on that.

Danical
07-14-2008, 04:16 PM
Yeah, I was a little bummed I couldn't crit kill them anymore but shortly after, they fucked up my E X-bow so I went back to being a pure and stopped caring.

NocturnalRob
07-14-2008, 04:20 PM
Yeah, I was a little bummed I couldn't crit kill them anymore but shortly after, they fucked up my E X-bow so I went back to being a pure and stopped caring.

pure bards ftmfw. i think my bard has been continuously numbed or above since...April?

at least, when he's not purifying. gem slave bitch. MUAHAHAHA

and 6 sec RT ambush is ghey. part of the reason i'm getting bored with my rogue.

Drew
07-14-2008, 04:54 PM
So like a handaxe with +2 sec RT?

Yep just like a handaxe except only crush so it actually kills on all rank 9s, which are easy to generate.

So just the same except, easier to generate rank 9s and guaranteed kills with a rank 9.

Stunseed
07-14-2008, 06:56 PM
Short sword is mostly slash and puncture, making it great on necks. You should tell Stunseen how much short swords suck.

I use the shit out of haste and Tonis is even better. I like my 1 sec MCW short sword just fine thank you.


The short sword I want isn't for Stun. Stunseed is an axe-man, usually. There for a while I was into bastard-swords when I owned the black ora, but I perfer axes.

Also, truth be told I'll setup a combo where the final swing is meaningless. 6 seconds doesn't bother me much at all.

Danical
07-14-2008, 07:06 PM
I tend to find 3 seconds of soft RT pretty rad.

JUST SAYING.

Stunseed
07-14-2008, 07:09 PM
Which is why I spike alot more than I did pre-OTF.

Danical
07-14-2008, 07:11 PM
Absolutely.

Spike is awesome. I just wish it wasn't so level dependent; it makes uphunting suck balls that much more. :(

droit
07-15-2008, 01:44 AM
It's the three seconds of soft RT for setup spells that give hiding and ambushing builds one of their greatest advantages. It's basically like getting an extra attack each round. Since you can't attack or cast or maneuver during that period, you may as well take that time to hide (for free, from an RT standpoint) and make sure the next hit kills the target.

Hide + Ambush RT = Spike + Hide + Ambush RT

g++
07-15-2008, 11:38 AM
An ambush should put the target in a bit of round time, that would make hiding and attacking worth while in my opinion and even the field a little bit between squares and pures as far as hunting. I mean look at feint, it puts critters into round time and its just a guy with a sword moving one direction..hard to believe a giantman with a maul leaping from hiding at you isnt going to take a few seconds to get into position for.

Galactic
07-22-2008, 06:33 PM
?I just got back in lands after a few year hiatus. needed some suggestions.

I am 64 trains, sword and shield hider/ambusher

my training looks like this

trained to brig in armor
x1 in shields, survival, first aid, ambushing, HP, Perception

x2 in CM, OHE,and stalking/hiding

20 climbing, 20 swimming

18 ranks of dodge combined with mobiles is x1 in dodge
30 ranks of first aid
20 MS spells and 45 ranger spells

Just want an opinion on how to get more with the times

do I need more armor, first aid, or dodging??

all these critters now with Manuever based attacks are kickin my butt, what counter acts those. How do i get more stamina. should I be more than x1 in perception or amush?

I just dont know

thanks

Mtenda
07-22-2008, 06:55 PM
?I just got back in lands after a few year hiatus. needed some suggestions.

I am 64 trains, sword and shield hider/ambusher

my training looks like this

trained to brig in armor
x1 in shields, survival, first aid, ambushing, HP, Perception

x2 in CM, OHE,and stalking/hiding

20 climbing, 20 swimming

18 ranks of dodge combined with mobiles is x1 in dodge
30 ranks of first aid
20 MS spells and 45 ranger spells

Just want an opinion on how to get more with the times

do I need more armor, first aid, or dodging??

all these critters now with Manuever based attacks are kickin my butt, what counter acts those. How do i get more stamina. should I be more than x1 in perception or amush?

I just dont know

thanks


Drop first aid and survival. If you really need silver...buy it. There is an abundance. At your level I would try to get into augmented chain or chain hauberk if ya can. I personally like the idea of a ranger doubling ambush but many say you don't need it. At any rate, we recently discovered perception does not help with melee ambush at all so you can cut back on that. You could probly find some use for more dodge. Oh yeah and cut back on CM and even some spells if you have to to make this all happen.

Edit: Physical Training gives you more stamina. It also helps with manuever defense and a number of other things. Consider singling it.

ceran
07-22-2008, 08:44 PM
If your are getting hit with maneuvers keep your cman and up your physical fitness if your are getting hit by disarms or different types of cmans training in that particular cman helps. About all i can help with with out knowing specifics.

graysun
07-23-2008, 01:03 PM
Where are you hunting?

Your build looks pretty good. It's very similar to mine, except you have more CM and less dodge. I doubled CM too in GS3, but opted to single both CM and dodge since returning to GS4.

The Redux formula now weighs Physical Training most heavily, which makes doubling CM less helpful in that respect - though I'd imagine the extra 32 AS is pretty nice, albeit expensive. In any event, it is now important to be singled in Physical Training for life rather than stopping at max health like we used to. As others have mentioned, it will also increase your stamina and should mitigate some of the damage you're taking from manuever-based attacks.

Many rangers wear chain-class armor at our age, as it is possible to wear augmented chain (60 ranks for manuever penalty, 70 to train down hindrance) without being too much over 1x in armor use. That said, there are a bunch of rangers - or at least a vocal few - who have worn forest green brig their whole life. Many of these seem to be archer/brawler builds, who spend less time exposed in RT than we do. At the very least, I'd say pick up 10 ranks of armor so you can wear chain mail, even if only situationally. The improved CvA for chain is worth the cost alone in my opinion.

You're probably going to need a few more ranks of climbing soon, but should be fine with 30 ranks for a while.

I have spent my mid-60's hunting Teras' Eye (mages/tsarks/sprites), Illistim's Keen and Wyneb, and the Stronghold near the Landing. Except for the stone mastiffs, you should be able to hide in front of any of the critters in those places.

If you don't have it, Tsoran made an excellent Excel spreadsheet that is great for planning out your training path.

Galactic
07-23-2008, 05:54 PM
I am gonna drop to x1.5 CM i like some extra AS and DS

add full x1 in PTget up to x1 in dodge,

so how much training do I need to get into Hauberk???

Thanks for the help

graysun
07-23-2008, 07:07 PM
so how much training do I need to get into Hauberk???

80 ranks to train off the manuever penalty - as a side note, you can also wear metal breastplate without manuever penalty at 80 ranks.

110 ranks to train down the spell hindrance to its minimum (which I think is 11%).

Stunseed
07-24-2008, 01:06 AM
I am gonna drop to x1.5 CM i like some extra AS and DS

add full x1 in PTget up to x1 in dodge,

so how much training do I need to get into Hauberk???

Thanks for the help

Here's the plan you're prolly going to want to modify from...

Stunseed (at level 93), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 210 110
Shield Use.........................| 194 94
Combat Maneuvers...................| 229 129
Edged Weapons......................| 286 186
Ambush.............................| 193 93
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 120 30
Physical Fitness...................| 193 93
Dodging............................| 194 94
Arcane Symbols.....................| 45 9
Magic Item Use.....................| 105 25
Harness Power......................| 193 93
Spirit Mana Control................| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 108 26
Stalking and Hiding................| 194 94
Perception.........................| 193 93
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 120 30

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 30

Spell Lists
Ranger.............................| 50

Galactic
07-24-2008, 11:19 AM
Do you amush from the open or hiding?

Stunseed
07-24-2008, 11:43 AM
I never hide. In a pinch against a turtled creature I'll 608.

I hit what I'm aiming at in the open pretty regularly. The perception is ambush-protection versus the ithzir scouts.

kgolfer
07-24-2008, 12:01 PM
Hey Stunseed,

I recently read that perception/ambush protection was debunked. It's a pretty cheap skill though.

Here's another shot of my ranger, like Stunseed he's a little more on the physical side.

As for my spell training, I recently ran the numbers through Latrinsorm for redux. It seems as though there are a couple "steps". You can search the logs to find most of the data. 91 spells is one step and there is basically no difference in redux down to 80 spells.


Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 210 110
Shield Use.........................| 201 101
Combat Maneuvers..............| 271 171
Edged Weapons..................| 302 202
Ambush.............................| 201 101
Multi Opponent Combat.........| 25 5
Physical Fitness..................| 201 101
Dodging.............................| 175 75
Arcane Symbols..................| 120 30
Magic Item Use...................| 120 30
Harness Power....................| 175 75
Spirit Mana Control..............| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.......| 145 45
Stalking and Hiding..............| 302 202
Perception.........................| 140 40
Climbing.............................| 90 20
Swimming..........................| 120 30

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 30

Spell Lists
Ranger.............................| 60

Stunseed
07-24-2008, 12:20 PM
Huh, I may get a few more lore ranks then....

Galactic
07-24-2008, 12:49 PM
stunseed do you use a lot of spells to hunt? 616,610,607,etc...

why dont you go twohanded seems cheaper or does the DS help a lot from the shields( I guess you would get killed with elemental attacks huh)

Also why so much multi oppenent trainin, I thought 5 trains off two attackers
or do you Mstrike?

Just tryin to figure things out

Thanks

BriarFox
07-24-2008, 12:55 PM
stunseed do you use a lot of spells to hunt? 616,610,607,etc...

why dont you go twohanded seems cheaper or does the DS help a lot from the shields( I guess you would get killed with elemental attacks huh)

Also why so much multi oppenent trainin, I thought 5 trains off two attackers
or do you Mstrike?

Just tryin to figure things out

Thanks

Two-handed weapons are slower and give you a MUCH lower DS (especially Bolt DS) than sword and boarding.

It takes 10 ranks of MOC to train off a second opponent, actually, not 5. 5 unlocks a 2-strike Mstrike attack, but the more you train in MOC, the more attacks you can get and the more opponents it offsets.

Stunseed
07-24-2008, 01:52 PM
stunseed do you use a lot of spells to hunt? 616,610,607,etc...

why dont you go twohanded seems cheaper or does the DS help a lot from the shields( I guess you would get killed with elemental attacks huh)

Also why so much multi oppenent trainin, I thought 5 trains off two attackers
or do you Mstrike?

Just tryin to figure things out

Thanks

In OTF I spike alot, just because I do more loot hunting than anything. Two-Handers would cause me to lose 1/2 my dodge ranks and I'm not down for that. Besides, I'd have to find my f'in bastard-axe in 2345456 lockers.

30 ranks equals me hitting one creature twice. FANTASTIC for constructs. Post-cap I'll end up getting more, but it's behind the 2x CM beast. At cap I'll have exactly 150 ranks ( 3x per train ), so I'll only have 50 ranks left to do post.

When I'm hunting with Jolena or Keyvon, often times I'll setup 610 for them and open ambush the skull. Only constructs and griffins are immune.

Brielus
08-22-2008, 09:07 PM
I'm masterd in smastery and I hide while I hunt due to the weight I accrue. I'm ranged and one hit kill almost everything with one shot to the eye. Swarms smarms fury and then hide and pick off the survivors. Now this is just my style though so whatever floats yer boat. 202 ranks ranged, 202 ranks ambush, 202 ranks perception, and 202 ranks in hiding makes me a happy panda.