Naijin no longer on staff

[Taernath]

I have first hand experience with this. When I returned to the game in 2014, I chose to be a wizard so I could mostly just rely on my own spells for defense, have a 3 sec RT because I knew I didn't like the classic ohe 5 sec melee RT, and could eventually enchant stuff for my own use.

I made it to level 40 before I just got bored as hell with it. Bolting just felt like I was slowly plinking stuff to death. There didn't seem to be many 1 or 2 shot kills, not a lot of crits, very few knockdowns unless I used Tonis bolt, no extra damage beyond what I did with the initial hit. Just continued to hit that 903 macro 3-7 times before turning to the next critter in the room and repeating the process. I wasn't using rapid fire. I can't remember if I just didn't have enough mana yet to consistently use it (I believe this was before the changes to harness power) or if there was another reason. I admit that maybe I wasn't the best at being a wizard, but I didn't see that I had a ton of other options for a better way to do things. I ended up just selling the character.

Hunting systems like crit randomization and no aiming/reliance on channeling along with lack of mana combine to form a perfect storm of suckage for lower level wizards.

[Ramrod]

What, you can't think of any use for those skills? Hell, I may not like Sweep myself, but I can think of plenty of viable builds that make good use of it. At the very least I am happy to have it as an available tool for certain situations, even if they aren't common for me personally. I mean sure, Meteor Swarm isn't going to see use, but I didn't say ALL of them.

So your entire argument summed up is - This spell/skill might have a use at some point in the game so it makes a build around that skill/spell viable?

When I say a viable training path, I don't mean something that technically works, but hunts take 30 minutes. I mean something that when compared to the rest of the players is on par. You can technically play a giantman ranged sorc, drop $30k on gear including SK items, 15x items and advance, but I wouldn't call that viable.

I don't consider something viable simply because it's technically possible. Buying lottery tickets as a retirement strategy is possible, but it's not really a viable strategy.

[Ramrod]

Please explain to me how this build was in any way nerfed whatsoever? (And you get flares from bless now at least, if not from sanct.)

Again, to repeat myself - How were any of those cleric builds nerfed? Is an OHB cleric weaker than it was in the past? (By the way, I played an OHB cleric in GS3. I got him to level 50 back in like '99.). Quit trying to misconstrue what I am arguing here.

I didn't say that build was nerfed. I said Simu's idea of game balance 99% of the time was to nerf something and that pures had been nerfed to shit. What you said was, "You have maneuver spells, warding spells, bolting spells, AS attacks, UCS. "

My argument is that just because you have access to something doesn't mean it's useful or viable.

Maneuver Spells: 309/320 vs 410/435. Squares have access to just as many maneuver spells. 309 takes 25+ seconds to kill.
Warding Spells: I said this was where they were pushing clerics/empaths.
Bolting Spells: Got it about as good as squares in that department.
AS Attacks: Not viable past about 50. That's why the undead gap was a big deal.
UCS: Same as AS attacks

Nerfs that affected clerics (off the top of my head):
225
130
302
Raising
Meditate

That was the core of the class right there. Easily dispatch undead, rescue and raise.

On top of that, to do the exact same things as before pures had to start training things like HP. You can't stop training at 24 ranks of most skills anymore because most things are based on ranks per level rather than bonus. 101 ranks of survival and I still slip and fall. Mana splitting into elemental, spiritual and mental was a nerf to pures. Then, they added "features" like open hand casting, lores and channeling. Before those, your max damage from a spell could be done with soft RT and with a weapon in hand. You're seriously arguing that those things aren't taken into account when they're making game balance decisions? Seriously? Then they released some of the best spells and built-in dependencies for them such as ranks of SMC, MIU, AS and lore. Sure, technically you can still cast sanctify without any of those skills because you went OHB/Shield, but your bonus will be shit and you can't ever do holy flares. But hey, technically it still works.

You're just projecting your idea of fun onto everyone else. I for one know of more players that have non-min maxed builds than I do those that are min-maxed, because killing as quickly as possible is not what makes the game more fun for them.

If that was the case then the game wouldn't be filled with AFK scripters. Seriously, that's why people are AFK scripting. They're speeding up advancement. Given the vast number of AFK scripters there's no way the majority of customers prefer to go slower. Maybe you don't count all the AFK scripters you encounter as players you "know."

The GMs are trying to make the game more challenging, and many would say THAT is what makes the game more fun.

Weird how if that's the case you're the only one in this thread arguing for that. Also weird that people flock to easier hunting areas when so many are looking for a challenge. Hey, like I said, I concede that I might be in the minority, but Simu's refusal to ask their customers means we'll never know. The fact that they don't survey customers anymore says a lot honestly.

[Mobius1]

So your entire argument summed up is - This spell/skill might have a use at some point in the game so it makes a build around that skill/spell viable?

My entire argument is that game balance DOES matter, and that sometimes nerfing is the best course of action to achieve it. That is literally the entire argument I am making here.

You then began to make claims that nerfs have somehow severely impaired pures, and I am simply refuting that, as it is absolutely not true. In your example to try and act as if clerics have been "nerfed" you mention mostly utility changes, and some changes that quite frankly aren't that big a deal anyways and were quite logical changes for the most part.

Clerics are literally one of the best classes in the game, if not THE best class in the game now, so why the hell are you even here arguing about nerfs to your class? It's freaking absurd. You have only gotten STRONGER as a cleric, and though some builds may be better than others for you, pretty much every single one of them have not been nerfed, and in fact have been BOOSTED, even OHB builds and whatever else.

Hell, 319 is one of the most OP spells in the game and I actually think it should be nerfed, so there is that too. I'm getting done with arguing with you over this because it's freaking silly and absurd. At least come at it from the perspective of a bard or wizard and not a freaking cleric!! Lol

If that was the case then the game wouldn't be filled with AFK scripters. Seriously, that's why people are AFK scripting. They're speeding up advancement. Given the vast number of AFK scripters there's no way the majority of customers prefer to go slower. Maybe you don't count all the AFK scripters you encounter as players you "know."

I see, so people afk script because combat is too slow? Is that the argument you are making? I'm just making sure I am understanding your argument correctly.

Weird how if that's the case you're the only one in this thread arguing for that.

I won't presume to speak for who's the majority or not, but I can definitely say that even those that agree with me probably aren't inclined to speak up, because they know how hostile people are about this. I'm probably losing friends just by having this discussion!

Also weird that people flock to easier hunting areas when so many are looking for a challenge.

Interestingly, this is a subject I have broached many times over the years. I certainly have my views on why this happens, and I feel it's actually quite pertinent to why people script, though for a completely different reason than what you are implying.

But to basically restate what I said in this discussion earlier - The whole "fun" argument really falls pretty flat on its face when you consider the fact that most people script, so therefore it's pretty disingenuous for them to claim that it detracts from their "fun." Sure, not everyone scripts, but who are you to project what is fun onto them?

I for one think that overall, the fun factor increases when the game is more balanced, development becomes easier, etc.. I can say that playing a rogue is better than ever before, more fun, and more versatile if you want it to be. My only big remaining beef is our lack of a service skill, really. As a cleric you should be over the moon right now!

[Realk]

Please explain to me how this build was in any way nerfed whatsoever? (And you get flares from bless now at least, if not from sanct.)

Again, to repeat myself - How were any of those cleric builds nerfed? Is an OHB cleric weaker than it was in the past? (By the way, I played an OHB cleric in GS3. I got him to level 50 back in like '99.). Quit trying to misconstrue what I am arguing here.

The amount of creatures with maneuvers ..I was not aware that smrv2 was even a dream in any mind ever in gs3. You aren't wrong that technically nothing has changed so it's not a nerf, but as far as viability it's not nearly close.

[Ramrod]

My entire argument is that game balance DOES matter, and that sometimes nerfing is the best course of action to achieve it. That is literally the entire argument I am making here.

You then began to make claims that nerfs have somehow severely impaired pures, and I am simply refuting that, as it is absolutely not true. In your example to try and act as if clerics have been "nerfed" you mention mostly utility changes, and some changes that quite frankly aren't that big a deal anyways and were quite logical changes for the most part.

I said that pures were nerfed to shit, which is absolutely true. Hard RT, training required for mana, lores required for max potential, MIU/AS/MC requirements for spells, mana sharing requiring 3 different skills - That's just off the top of my head. That compared to a 3 sec soft RT and no TP's required to get mana. Yeah, those are pretty huge nerfs. Add to that SMRv2 requiring dodge, all the individual spell nerfs, anti-magic creatures strewn across the game and a host of other obstacles thrown out there to stop pures and yeah, I think pures have been nerfed to shit over the years. That's been Simu's idea of "game balance."

Clerics are literally one of the best classes in the game, if not THE best class in the game now, so why the hell are you even here arguing about nerfs to your class? It's freaking absurd. You have only gotten STRONGER as a cleric, and though some builds may be better than others for you, pretty much every single one of them have not been nerfed, and in fact have been BOOSTED, even OHB builds and whatever else.

Just because you repeat it doesn't make it true. You're just sitting here, moving goalposts and repeating the same things over and over and ignoring any evidence to the contrary. I detailed how swinging, UCS, maneuver spells, bolt spells and everything you listed isn't really viable. It's all neat, but none of it is all that useful.

Hell, 319 is one of the most OP spells in the game and I actually think it should be nerfed, so there is that too. I'm getting done with arguing with you over this because it's freaking silly and absurd. At least come at it from the perspective of a bard or wizard and not a freaking cleric!! Lol

Bards are probably the best casters in the game right now. As a semi.

I see, so people afk script because combat is too slow? Is that the argument you are making? I'm just making sure I am understanding your argument correctly.

No, you said that "everyone you know" doesn't "min/max" because they're not interested in hunting/advancing as fast as possible. I said that every AFK scripter out there contradicts that. People are AFK scripting to speed up progression whether that's in terms of loot or exp. Some people hunt for loot, others for exp and some for both, but that's what I mean by progression. I think most people script in general to eliminate the tedium of it versus AFK'ing to advance.

I won't presume to speak for who's the majority or not, but I can definitely say that even those that agree with me probably aren't inclined to speak up, because they know how hostile people are about this. I'm probably losing friends just by having this discussion!

It's a game and anyone who would throw away a friendship over something this trivial is dumb. I don't think any better/worse of you as a person because we disagree on direction of a 25 year old text game. I don't remember your character(s), but I do remember you were on my AIM list cause of your icon.

Interestingly, this is a subject I have broached many times over the years. I certainly have my views on why this happens, and I feel it's actually quite pertinent to why people script, though for a completely different reason than what you are implying.

Look, I don't AFK script anymore although I did 15? years ago or so. The reason I did it was to speed up progression. Hunting the same thing the same way for 100+ hours before moving on and repeating isn't all that fun. Like I said, my two favorite things to do in this game are to meet a goal and cyber myself in Methais's house, both of which are easier to do with a script.

But to basically restate what I said in this discussion earlier - The whole "fun" argument really falls pretty flat on its face when you consider the fact that most people script, so therefore it's pretty disingenuous for them to claim that it detracts from their "fun." Sure, not everyone scripts, but who are you to project what is fun onto them?

I'm not projecting my fun onto anyone. I'm simply saying that I don't find nerfs and further slowing down what is maybe one of the slowest games in existence fun and I don't think I'm in the minority. I concede that I could be wrong, but unless Simu is willing to ask their customers we'll never know. If I was projecting my fun onto others then I'd be arguing for making gift of lumnis permanent and getting rid of spell sever and divergence altogether and letting people just go out and max out builds. I'd also argue for true multi-classing post-cap. I'm not trying to project that on anyone and am simply asking that Simu quit nerfing shit, which slows down progression in an already slow game.

I for one think that overall, the fun factor increases when the game is more balanced, development becomes easier, etc.. I can say that playing a rogue is better than ever before, more fun, and more versatile if you want it to be. My only big remaining beef is our lack of a service skill, really. As a cleric you should be over the moon right now!

See, I don't have a problem with game balance. I just don't like that game balance to Simu generally just means a nerf. They keep nerfing entire systems because of the 1% or less of players. I mean, wasn't the loot cap introduced because of a single player? This is already an incredibly slow game and every single nerf just slows it down more. Death by 1000 paper cuts.

[Realk]

the weapon fire build thing. Before the cm changes, I on occasion would weapon fire things so they couldn't disarm. (despite other ways to prevent it) Between getting my CM's up, and the recovery system I don't even pretend to play with it.

[Mobius1]

I said that pures were nerfed to shit, which is absolutely true. Hard RT, training required for mana, lores required for max potential, MIU/AS/MC requirements for spells, mana sharing requiring 3 different skills - That's just off the top of my head. That compared to a 3 sec soft RT and no TP's required to get mana. Yeah, those are pretty huge nerfs. Add to that SMRv2 requiring dodge, all the individual spell nerfs, anti-magic creatures strewn across the game and a host of other obstacles thrown out there to stop pures and yeah, I think pures have been nerfed to shit over the years. That's been Simu's idea of "game balance."

SMR2 requires dodge in what way? It's literally only a 6% difference to your SMR2 defense as a pure going from 0 to 100 dodging (and you also get a crap ton of extra DS).

Not only that, but before when things were basically the wild west when it comes to maneuvers, you had SMR1, and a whole plethora of maneuver skills based on unique crap that was quite often much worse than SMR2 is for you now. In fact you want to talk about getting buffed as a pure through SMR2? Let's talk about how CM defense got converted to SMR2 defense. Your defense against cmans went to the freaking MOON!! That was a massive buff for pures.

Man, you remind me of people like Scintillion, who come around and try to claim that rogues were better in GS3. I'm sorry, but no.

Just because you repeat it doesn't make it true. You're just sitting here, moving goalposts and repeating the same things over and over and ignoring any evidence to the contrary. I detailed how swinging, UCS, maneuver spells, bolt spells and everything you listed isn't really viable. It's all neat, but none of it is all that useful.

I've never once moved the goalposts. Don't go throwing in verbiage thinking it somehow makes your argument better.

My initial comment on various builds, for one, was clearly in reference to pures in general, and I'd love you to re-read it before you continue further with this argument. I didn't claim that every single pure has some awesome build of every type I listed. But you absolutely can not deny that there are way more options that are viable than ever before in the past, which was what my point was.

I also think that you and I must have completely different definitions of what is "viable." For example to say that a OHB cleric build isn't viable makes no sense to me, as it's literally never been as good as it is now for clerics.

I dunno, maybe your head is stuck in Hinterwilds or something?

Bards are probably the best casters in the game right now. As a semi.

I've been saying this for years now, myself. In fact the GMs clearly agree as well, seeing as it is downtweaked in Divergence. Still, just because 1030 is strong is in no way a nerf to pures.

No, you said that "everyone you know" doesn't "min/max" because they're not interested in hunting/advancing as fast as possible.

Oh yeah? Did I? How about you actually quote what I said, instead of making it up and adding quotation marks to it? I think half your problem in this discussion is you don't even really read what I am saying. Maybe actually stop and take the time to read my posts instead of just skimming over them, please?

It's a game and anyone who would throw away a friendship over something this trivial is dumb. I don't think any better/worse of you as a person because we disagree on direction of a 25 year old text game. I don't remember your character(s), but I do remember you were on my AIM list cause of your icon.

I agree it's dumb. Some people sadly get very triggered when someone disagrees with their views. Look at LNET as a great example, lol. I've lost friends over much less than this, sadly.

Look, I don't AFK script anymore although I did 15? years ago or so. The reason I did it was to speed up progression. Hunting the same thing the same way for 100+ hours before moving on and repeating isn't all that fun. Like I said, my two favorite things to do in this game are to meet a goal and cyber myself in Methais's house, both of which are easier to do with a script.

I'm not projecting my fun onto anyone. I'm simply saying that I don't find nerfs and further slowing down what is maybe one of the slowest games in existence fun and I don't think I'm in the minority. I concede that I could be wrong, but unless Simu is willing to ask their customers we'll never know. If I was projecting my fun onto others then I'd be arguing for making gift of lumnis permanent and getting rid of spell sever and divergence altogether and letting people just go out and max out builds. I'd also argue for true multi-classing post-cap. I'm not trying to project that on anyone and am simply asking that Simu quit nerfing shit, which slows down progression in an already slow game.

The reality is that even if this game had the most fun combat system of any game ever made, you would STILL get bored of it after playing for 10, 20, even 30 years. When you've killed the same critters literally millions of times, it doesn't matter if your CT is 1 second or 2, you are going to be bored. This certainly leads to more people scripting, no doubt. But it also leads some people to want to try other builds, other classes, etc., which more often than not, tend to be slower and/or more challenging builds. Those that are scripting? Should they really be giving two craps about combat being a tad bit slower for them? If a robot is playing the game for them, what difference does it have in regards to their fun? They're just watching Youtube anyways. And those who are truly looking for fun? Yes, I really think in most of those cases, more challenge is likely more fun for them. It's one reason I've seen so many rogues making mutants these days, running TWC open builds and crap.

See, I don't have a problem with game balance. I just don't like that game balance to Simu generally just means a nerf. They keep nerfing entire systems because of the 1% or less of players. I mean, wasn't the loot cap introduced because of a single player? This is already an incredibly slow game and every single nerf just slows it down more. Death by 1000 paper cuts.

First of all, my main argument against you in this discussion, has been that I disagree that there have been many nerfs. There really hasn't been many nerfs, and the amount of buffs VASTLY outnumbers them.

And as for a nerf because of a 1% extreme? Those situations are usually the BEST ones to implement a nerf, because it's better to nerf the extreme than try to buff everyone else. The loot cap is freaking fantastic if you ask me.

[gilchristr]

This thread is starting to look like a huge eye-bleeding piece of shit. This probably why they decided to take down the official forums

[Neveragain]

I don't recall the officials being a eye wrenching mess like this.

Of course, I basically used the officials to post short / interactive stories.

P.S. 6% to dodge is a lot more than it appears. You should see the difference in DPS when going from 0%to hit to 6% to hit on one's parses.