SPELLBURST, solved?

[Aequis]

Here's the executive summary of my research into spell burst -

When I refer to "limit" mana and "current" mana I am referring to the two sections of the ;burst_calc readout by the same names. Because I wear a few enhancives that impact the spell burst calculation my advice is to add 0.5 limit mana to each of the thresholds described below. While I was able to increase my limit mana in 0.5 mana increments, because of the limited number of spells that have +0.5 current mana added to their actual mana cost in the ;burst_calc formula, I decided to add outside spells in 1 current mana increments.

When I began my testing I had 57 limit mana, however I was only able to wear outside spells totaling 47 current mana without bursting. I added skills such that I increased my limit mana in 0.5 mana increments until I reached 61.5 limit mana. I was unable to wear any additional outside spells until I reached 61.5 limit mana. Once I reached 61.5 limit mana I was able to wear additional outside spells totaling 69.5 current mana without bursting. I added skills such that I increased my limit mana in 0.5 mana increments until I reached 76 limit mana. I was unable to wear any additional outside spells until I reached 76 limit mana. Once I reached 76 limit mana I was able to wear additional outside up to 85 current mana without bursting. In all cases, adding even a single additional current mana resulted in spell burst.

Based on the foregoing, I believe that spell burst wearable mana beyond 1/2 of level is explained as a series of discrete thresholds. At no time in my research did I observe any gradual increase in wearable mana.

I found three thresholds:

47 current mana - presumably the result of the linear increase in wearable mana described by Gib in his original research

69.5 current mana - unlocked upon reaching 61.5 limit mana

85 current mana - unlocked upon reaching 76 limit mana

Since my research was conducted using a 7.7M EXP half-elf paladin I am not in a position to search for the next threshold, but I feel comfortable concluding that there are more thresholds. I take no position on the accuracy of ;burst_calc or Gib's research more broadly. If nothing else, ;burst_calc is an adequate tool to measure spell burst thresholds and, barring some unforeseen racial or professional component, can be used by anyone to implement my research. It should go without saying that my research would not have been possible with Gib's earlier work.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Spell_burst

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/in...lk:Spell_burst

[Goat]

I have rather a lot of outside spells and a decent amount of magic skill training. I haven't tracked this scientifically, or at least not until tonight, but after recently adding 45 ranks of MIU and AS (combined, not each), I don't know that I actually got any higher of a burst threshold.

Here's a single trial:

Dergoatean (at level 100), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Arcane Symbols.....................| 302 202
Magic Item Use.....................| 216 116
Spell Aiming.......................| 305 205
Harness Power......................| 200 100
Elemental Mana Control.............| 102 24
Spirit Mana Control................| 106 25
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 2 0
Sorcerous Lore - Demonology........| 58 12
Sorcerous Lore - Necromancy........| 280 180

You currently have the following active spells:
Spirit Warding I ................... 3:31:52
Spirit Defense ..................... 3:31:59
Disease Resistance ................. 3:32:03
Poison Resistance .................. 3:32:06
Spirit Warding II .................. 3:32:10
Lesser Shroud ...................... 3:32:14
Spirit Shield ...................... 2:12:49
Bravery ............................ 1:24:37
Heroism ............................ 2:13:44
Prayer of Protection ............... 2:30:59
Benediction ........................ 2:13:48
Warding Sphere ..................... 2:12:52
Prayer ............................. 2:12:52
Elemental Defense I ................ 3:32:18
Elemental Defense II ............... 3:32:22
Elemental Defense III .............. 3:32:26
Elemental Targeting ................ 3:32:30
Elemental Barrier .................. 3:32:33
Thurfel's Ward ..................... 2:13:01
Elemental Deflection ............... 2:13:04
Elemental Bias ..................... 2:13:04
Strength ........................... 2:13:13
Natural Colors ..................... 2:13:25
Resist Elements .................... 2:14:09
Phoen's Strength ................... 2:13:13
Self Control ....................... 2:14:05
Cloak of Shadows ................... 3:04:54
Pestilence ......................... 2:59:15
Ensorcell .......................... 0:00:18
Prismatic Guard .................... 2:13:04
Mass Blur .......................... 1:34:57
Empathic Focus ..................... 2:13:56
Foresight .......................... 2:13:30
Mantle of Faith .................... 2:13:34
Arm of the Arkati .................. 2:13:52
Dauntless .......................... 1:25:21
Zealot ............................. 0:13:02
Spirit Guard ....................... 2:24:00
Symbol of Protection ............... 0:07:37
Symbol of Courage .................. 0:03:17
Next Bounty ........................ 0:07:30

You suddenly feel the essence surrounding you shift and writhe chaotically!
You feel the protection of your deity's influence fade.
... 10 points of damage!
Light blow to your right arm.

(Lost Prayer - 313)

Outside spells: [202, 211, 215, 303, 503, 507, 508, 509, 601, 602, 606, 613, 905, 911, 1109, 1204, 1601, 1606]

Limit: 174.50
Current: 112.00

No further burst after that.

So my limit is somewhere between 111.5 and 124.5, I guess.

Further testing (1/30/2017): Max is at least 118.5 and lower than 124.5

[Goat]

I have discovered in irregularity in ;burst_calc. Not really burst_calc's fault so much as the underlying lich data. Observe:

What is 303's cost?
;e echo eval(Spell[303].cost)
--- Lich: exec1 active.
[exec1: 2]

Why does it cost 2??
>;e echo Spell[303].cost
--- Lich: exec1 active.
[exec1: 3 + (([Spells.cleric,Stats.level].min - 3) / 6)]

If you're not a cleric, Spells.cleric is 0, so this becomes 3 + (-3 / 6), and Ruby integer division turns that into 3 + -1 -- spell cost is 2! ;burst_calc adds .5, but I think it intended to count 3.5, not 2.5...

When I wore 129 "raw" burst-eligible mana, ;burst_calc reported 124.5. So instead of returning more than the raw mana cost, which seems to be its intent (it adds .5 in all over the place), it ended up actually lowering the cost for some of it.

1109 does not seem to suffer a similar problem:
>;e echo Spell[1109].cost
[exec1: 9 + [(([Spells.empath,Stats.level].min - 9) / 6.0).round,0].max]
It knows to set a floor at 0, which is what 303 needs.

2/2/2017 Edit: The following spells have incorrect costs (in Lich) for spellburst purposes:
102
507
618
905
913
1610

I sent a fix to Tillmen for those a little earlier tonight, and for a few other spells that are not spellburst-relevant (e.g. 409) as well. I'll continue testing once he submits the fix. Hopefully this removes the need for all the random 0.5 mana additions, but who knows. I'll modify burst_calc to report raw mana costs and see where I get with it.

2/3/2017 Edit: Monk spells were not included in ;burst_calc. I added a thing for them. I also added a bit to include both raw mana and the original 0.5 additions for spells above level 8. Given the oddities I've found, I'm inclined to start with the idea that the raw numbers are just fine. I believe I have determined that my max (raw) mana at current skills is 127, and I think 130.5 (or 131) with the 0.5 additions.

[Goat]

I didn't find the exact skill threshold where I unlocked a high spellburst limit is, but I did find the next threshold - only 5 more mana allowed.

With 116 ranks MIU: 127 max mana
With 136 ranks MIU: 127 max mana
With 156 ranks MIU: 132 max mana
So, to be clear, just like Aequis discovered, I witnessed an increase at some skill threshold rather than a gradual increase.

Note this is raw mana, rather than with burst_calc's 0.5 additions for level 9+, but the math would be almost the same there, too - just a 0.5 difference (I forget in which direction).

The compares to a ~17.7 mana increase if there was no diminishing returns effect after exceeding half my level.

On the one hand, I'm glad to find out that I haven't already hit some kind of hard cap (which I had feared). On the other, this puts a damper on my plans to learn more magic skills, so I may not test any further in the foreseeable future.

2/6/2017 Edit: Well that was annoying. I decided I wanted to find the next threshold, and gradually jump from 156 MIU up to 202. Still 132 max (raw) mana. I do have a set of max Arcane Symbols enhancives, though. Might give those a try.

[Goat]

Remember that my previous threshold was 132 (raw) mana, triggered somewhere between 137 and 156 ranks MIU, and 202 MIU did not increase the threshold. I started wearing enhancives.

+27 AS, +3 SA, +1 necro (all ranks) in addition to the addition 46 ranks now had no effect on my threshold.
+50 AS, +6 SA, +1 necro, +1.67 EMC (all ranks) along with -6 AUR, +1 WIS (all stat, not bonus) DID increase my threshold from 132 to 137. So if assume the midpoints of the possible previous threshold and current one, it took about 99 new "primary" ranks (the ones that count fully, toward burst, not half) to increase the threshold this last time. This implies that my returns are about 9x diminished at this point, compared to first ~50 burst mana (up to half my level).

Given how many ranks it took to get 10 more burst mana, and how little interest I have in the other benefits of MIU/controls/lores right now, I think I'm going to start un-training rather than pressing forward. Perhaps when the test server opens up again I'll resume work on this.

[Geijon Khyree]

As a warrior I think I can only get to 101 ranks in MIU. I'm seeing 116 ranks. I read the original post and it was just the mana thresholds. I admittedly don't use the burst_calc, but I just downloaded it.

Outside spells: []

Limit: 52.50
Current: 0.00

You are UNDER by 52.50 mana

Your wearable mana exceeds half your level. Formula used may over-estimate wearable mana, use with caution.

I have 30 MIU ranks and up to 425 so those will be free. I could do 509, 503, 1606, 103, 101, 107, 618...for 47 and I'd be OK? I wonder what efficiency I gain at 101 ranks of MIU.

[Goat]

I'm seeing 116 ranks.

Ranks of what? For what it's worth, Your 52.50 mana limit in ;burst_calc implies that you have ~125 spellburst ranks (spell aim, harness power, MIU, AS count as a full spellburst rank, lores and controls as half). That is, unless you've got a different copy of burst_calc than I do.

According to Aequis' findings, you're good for 47 outside mana right now. ;burst_calc will count 509 as 9.5 and 618 as 18.5, because they're >= level 9. That would put you at 48. However, I'm not so sure if those 0.5s are accurate. They might've been making up for an error in lich's spell cost table for outside spells (See post #3). On the other hand, I seem to remember spells only count for half their mana if you _could_ learn them. If that's true, then 101/103/107 would only cost you ~5.5 burst mana instead of 11, and you'd be fine.

Given Aequis' findings, and going on the idea that you have 125 spellburst ranks, you probably need something like 45 more spellburst ranks (45 MIU ranks would do it) to up your true limit by 22.5 (from 47 to 69.5). But I don't think things are confirmed solidly enough to say anything for sure.