Phantom Dex Testing

[Whirlin]

Well, I can continue to do the tests, and re-preform dagger and longsword tests... Of course, once I kill Lumnis and such.

The result of 7 with the dagger seems a bit off to me... it would make much more sense to see it max out at 9, which would be in line with ASG Divisor *1.5, in line with archery. That'll be top priority to retest when I get time, to see if I can get Phantom = 9.

3/6/9 values just seem to line up a bit too well with fractions of the ASG divisor for me to think that they're arbitrary limits due to our DEX or due to the weapon itself... I stand firm with my theory.

Thank you for doing a quick assessment of my work so far... I will continue with my tests, and hopefully we'll be able to determine the solution... .... ... in a few years.

[rolfard]

do brawling AND UAC fists AND UAC weapons

[Riltus]

Well, I can continue to do the tests, and re-preform dagger and longsword tests... Of course, once I kill Lumnis and such.

The result of 7 with the dagger seems a bit off to me... it would make much more sense to see it max out at 9, which would be in line with ASG Divisor *1.5, in line with archery. That'll be top priority to retest when I get time, to see if I can get Phantom = 9.

3/6/9 values just seem to line up a bit too well with fractions of the ASG divisor for me to think that they're arbitrary limits due to our DEX or due to the weapon itself... I stand firm with my theory.

Thank you for doing a quick assessment of my work so far... I will continue with my tests, and hopefully we'll be able to determine the solution... .... ... in a few years.

The 7 pts of weighting with the dagger is the minimum, not the maximum. This was an HE Ranger w/29 Dex bonus.

You swing a short sword at a hobgoblin!
AS: +84 vs DS: +27 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +53 = +146
... and hit for 18 points of damage!
Torn muscle in the hobgoblin's left leg!
Your short sword fades some.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
RANK 1 LEFT LEG CRUSH: Damage: 7 Status Effect: 0 Wounds: Rank 1
Weapon used: sword against AvD: 36, d100 Roll: 53, Endroll: 146, Total Damage: 18

Raw dmg: 11
Crit dmg: 7
Total dmg: 18
Armor crit divisor: 6 Light Leather w/ Greaves
Max crit rank w/o weighting: 1 [trunc(11/6)]
Actual crit rank: 1
Required to not be Crit Rank 1: Rank 3
Maximum Phantom Crit Damage: <7

DE Rogue (DEX bonus 35):

You swing a short sword at a hobgoblin!
AS: +94 vs DS: +33 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +71 = +168
... and hit for 33 points of damage!
Left kneecap smashed into pulp.
The hobgoblin is knocked to the ground!
The hobgoblin is stunned!

DF: .240
Raw dmg: 16 (68 * .240)
Crit dmg: 17
Crit rank: 4 (Crush, left leg)
Crit div: 6 (light leather w/leg greaves)
Minimum weighting: 8

You swing a short sword at a giant rat!
AS: +47 vs DS: +14 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +60 = +133
... and hit for 32 points of damage!
Strike to abdomen punctures stomach!
The giant rat collapses to the ground, emits a final squeal, and dies.

DF: .350
Raw dmg: 12 (11.55 round up)
Crit dmg: 20
Crit rank: 4 (Puncture, abdomen)
Crit div: 5
Minimum weighting: 8

Also

DE Rogue (DEX bonus 35)

Jackblade: 8 minimum
Fist-scythe: 8 minimum

Mark

[Riltus]

Additional data showing 10 pts of weighting (closed fist) w/40 dex bonus and 2 pts of weighting with morning star.

Halfling Warrior (DEX bonus 40)

CLOSED FIST:

You swing a closed fist at a giant rat!
AS: +67 vs DS: +4 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +61 = +149
... and hit for 20 points of damage!
Respectable shot to the back.
The giant rat is stunned!

DF: 0.100
Raw dmg: 5
Crit dmg: 15
Crit rank: 3 (Crush, back)
Crit divisor: 5
Minimum weighting: 10

MORNING STAR:

You swing a morning star at a giant rat!
AS: +56 vs DS: +4 with AvD: +33 + d100 roll: +68 = +153
... and hit for 48 points of damage!
Damaging strike to chest, several ribs shattered!
The giant rat collapses to the ground, emits a final squeal, and dies.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

DF: .425
Raw dmg: 23
Crit dmg: 25
Crit rank: 5 (Puncture, chest)
Crit div: 5
MIN weighting: 2


You swing a morning star at a giant rat!
AS: +45 vs DS: +2 with AvD: +33 + d100 roll: +53 = +129
... and hit for 17 points of damage!
Blow to the head causes the giant rat's ears to ring!
The giant rat collapses to the ground, emits a final squeal, and dies.

DF: .425
Raw dmg: 12
Crit dmg: 5
Crit rank: 1 (Crush, head)
Crit divisor: 5
MAX weighting: 2

Mark

[Whirlin]

I'll try to repeat the +40 dex on my wizard, and see if we can get a different value for closed fist maximum... it may be something simple, like +2 for square, +1 for semi, +0 for pure...

I dunno... Still working on Lumnis today though.

[TheBastardOfStark]

Necro. Any more work ever get done on this?

[gilchristr]

This thread was discussed on lnet tonight. I don't recommend anyone choose a weapon type based on this threads, its super speculative.

Also, I don't think the theory is likely to be correct ... I don't really know what testing could be done to prove or disprove the theory. So, let me offer reasoning combined with what the do know about weapons (i.e what is from the official documentation) ... I think the weapons are balanced around the non-secret features of AvD, DF, and weapon speed in seconds. If they were balanced around a fourth secret factor, one would expect to see many "good" weapons that didn't not appear to be balanced around AvD, DF, and weapon speed in seconds. If you think this theory is true, then I would start collecting evidence around popular weapons that do not appear to be balanced. I am not sure what those would be (again I don't think this theory is likely to be correct).

For instance, if there is a first weapon that appears to be OP based on the known factors (Avd, DF, weapon speed), and a second weapon that appears to be UP based on the known factors, then start looking to those two weapons for an undocumented point of balance.

[Whirlin]

This thread was discussed on lnet tonight. I don't recommend anyone choose a weapon type based on this threads, its super speculative.

Also, I don't think the theory is likely to be correct ... I don't really know what testing could be done to prove or disprove the theory. So, let me offer reasoning combined with what the do know about weapons (i.e what is from the official documentation) ... I think the weapons are balanced around the non-secret features of AvD, DF, and weapon speed in seconds. If they were balanced around a fourth secret factor, one would expect to see many "good" weapons that didn't not appear to be balanced around AvD, DF, and weapon speed in seconds. If you think this theory is true, then I would start collecting evidence around popular weapons that do not appear to be balanced. I am not sure what those would be (again I don't think this theory is likely to be correct).

For instance, if there is a first weapon that appears to be OP based on the known factors (Avd, DF, weapon speed), and a second weapon that appears to be UP based on the known factors, then start looking to those two weapons for an undocumented point of balance.

While I agree that this should not be the basis for decision making yet, I have a problem with stating that the results are 'super speculative', as there has not been any NEW proposed correlation drawn between DEX, Weapon type, and potential for phantom damage. The previous guidance on phantom dex weighting was DEX/4, which I have subsequently proven is INACCURATE based on the results of the first few pages of testing. This thread was simply an aggregation of testing of various weapon forms that I performed at ridiculous levels of DEX to compare one weapon versus another. Many more data points are needed to draw upon a conclusive result of testing, which do not exist yet.

I'm not sure what you're arguing is incorrect. There's objective evidence of crit weighting being added to attacks, that vary per weapon type. Every single post in the first few pages where I have the AS/DS calculations prove the existence or absence of phantom crit weighting.

Absolute phantom crit weighting values were obtained through hundreds of attacks (Thank you wizard haste), but the only ones that were posted in the OP were the two required values to zero in on a single potential outcome on a specific phantom weighting value.

[gilchristr]

I for one would be interested in hearing from Riltus about this testing:

Ranger w/ handaxe: No weighting
Warrior w/handaxe: Weighting


In regard to the height/size system. Was the warrior that did the testing the same height/size as the ranger. And what were the targets being tested. For instance, was the ranger a giantman swinging a handaxe at hobgoblinss, and the warrior a halfling swinging the handaxe at hobgoblins? You get the idea.


EDIT - interestingly I went back and read the thread and it seems that Riltus used a halfling warrior and a DE rogue for testing. I don't know what race, i.e., the height/size, of the ranger who didnt realize phantom damage from his dex bonus (whereas the halfling warrior did), however, and would be interested to know!

EDIT2 - skimmed again, the ranger was a half elf. So Ritlus found no phatom damage from dex by a half elf attacking a hobgoblin with a handaxe, but he did find phantom damage from dex by a halfling attacking a hobgobilin with a handaxe. Ritlus speculated that the difference could be related to some sort of profession factor, and I have no idea on that, and I don't meant to discount that possibility by speculating other possible grounds for the difference he found there, i.e. the height/reach system which as discussed in another thread here on the PC has a surprising amount of granularity accounting not just for the height of the attacker/defender but also the size of the weapon used. A simple enough experiment would to repeat the test on waraxe, this time using the same size warrior and ranger when attacking the hobgoblin.


Anyone more familiar with the height size system mind chiming in on the relative sizes of halflings, half elfs, and hobgoblins? Also, what is the "height" of a halfling with a waraxe (if you will, again I am referred to the incredibly granularized height system from another thread) vs. a hobgoblin? here is that other thread by the way:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthrea...e-Aiming/page5

[Whirlin]

That is correct... There may also be variations based on whether or not a soft leather versus Rigid leather armor hobgoblin was the target of testing. As I stated above, the objective was to establish a baseline which can further be evaluated with additional variables. The conclusion of the initial round of testing proves that Phantom Weighting Exists, and that it IS NOT EVEN for all weapons of a given weapon type. Adding in an additional caveat of Race and profession is a bit overload.

I'm not sure what evidence you have that suggests that the height system is in any way impacting phantom weighting. The results of the height system was emphasis on potential targets that could be hit based on size versus size, and/or impacts to size based CMAN. Furthermore, values of phantom dex appeared consistently applied, regardless of target location prior to crit randomization, not subjective to the target body part hit.

I don't think you really understand how science and discovery works... Take an evaluation with a single variable, then add one variable at a time and compare for correlation. You don't try to simultaneously test 10000 variables.