Military Discriminating?

[AuctionBot2000]

Your access to material is inspiring, (and slightly scary.)

[Methais]

I think feet are gross.

I think feet with really short (and really long) toenails are gross.

[Savrin]

The ruling I mentioned before set precedent that it was a threat to life, and in my opinion very plausibly.

The legitimacy of that ruling is one of the issues we're discussing. This is a mental health disorder. You'll recall they don't lobotomize people anymore. That sets its own precedent. You treat mental health disorders through therapy and drug treatments.

Here's a study that shows that overweight teens are more likely to consider suicide. Are you reconsidering your stance on free liposuction for overweight prisoners?

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/121972.php

[Latrinsorm]

The legitimacy of that ruling is one of the issues we're discussing. This is a mental health disorder. You'll recall they don't lobotomize people anymore. That sets its own precedent. You treat mental health disorders through therapy and drug treatments.

I was including drug treatment under "surgery" in the general sense of "healthcare beyond counseling, and especially that which a prisoner could not be reasonably expected to personally obtain". I apologize if this was not clear.

Here's a study that shows that overweight teens are more likely to consider suicide. Are you reconsidering your stance on free liposuction for overweight prisoners?

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/121972.php

This analogy is not properly constructed. My reason against free liposuction wasn't that obesity wasn't dangerous, but that the non-surgical alternative is available and possibly more effective. Counseling cannot take the place of surgery (et al) in the same way for transgender, although certainly both should be available. One way that trans and PTSD are different is that PTSD doesn't necessarily require medication or surgery, but both Zoloft and Paxil (to name two) are specifically prescribed as treatments for it. Would we be having this discussion if a veteran with PTSD committed a crime and received those prescriptions gratis? If not, how is trans less continually traumatic? The people in question with PTSD aren't in combat zones any more, but the transgender person is in the wrong body every minute of every day.

[cwolff]

I was including drug treatment under "surgery" in the general sense of "healthcare beyond counseling, and especially that which a prisoner could not be reasonably expected to personally obtain". I apologize if this was not clear.This analogy is not properly constructed. My reason against free liposuction wasn't that obesity wasn't dangerous, but that the non-surgical alternative is available and possibly more effective. Counseling cannot take the place of surgery (et al) in the same way for transgender, although certainly both should be available. One way that trans and PTSD are different is that PTSD doesn't necessarily require medication or surgery, but both Zoloft and Paxil (to name two) are specifically prescribed as treatments for it. Would we be having this discussion if a veteran with PTSD committed a crime and received those prescriptions gratis? If not, how is trans less continually traumatic? The people in question with PTSD aren't in combat zones any more, but the transgender person is in the wrong body every minute of every day.

I don't think we have enough information about this to say that surgery or hormone treatment is the right treatment. It's still treating an internal psychological problem with externalization. It'll never work. This is one reason why suicide rates are higher for women who have had boob jobs than for women who haven't.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't think we have enough information about this to say that surgery or hormone treatment is the right treatment. It's still treating an internal psychological problem with externalization. It'll never work. This is one reason why suicide rates are higher for women who have had boob jobs than for women who haven't.

I would say the problem is neither internal nor external, but that there is dissonance between the two. Hormone treatment resolves that dissonance, while counseling merely helps to assuage it.

Cosmetic breast implants, by comparison, are an attempt to become more beautiful, or more attractive, or more loved. It makes sense that suicide rates are higher because if your premise is "he'd love me if I had bigger boobs" and it turns out he still doesn't, then you are inclined to conclude that there is something fundamentally (rather than superficially) wrong about you, which is depressing.

If you could demonstrate that people with restorative breast implants (such as after mastectomies) also have a higher rate of suicide, that would be more compelling, although there would still be a question of whether whatever caused those operations also caused the suicide. Terminal cancer tends to be pretty depressing, for instance.

[Warriorbird]

Ha ha ha. Poor Inspire.

[cwolff]

I would say the problem is neither internal nor external, but that there is dissonance between the two. Hormone treatment resolves that dissonance, while counseling merely helps to assuage it.

Cosmetic breast implants, by comparison, are an attempt to become more beautiful, or more attractive, or more loved. It makes sense that suicide rates are higher because if your premise is "he'd love me if I had bigger boobs" and it turns out he still doesn't, then you are inclined to conclude that there is something fundamentally (rather than superficially) wrong about you, which is depressing.

If you could demonstrate that people with restorative breast implants (such as after mastectomies) also have a higher rate of suicide, that would be more compelling, although there would still be a question of whether whatever caused those operations also caused the suicide. Terminal cancer tends to be pretty depressing, for instance.

I hear what you're saying and it's a complicated issue. To me it's still comes down to an externalization. "he would love me if I had big boobs" or "I would love myself if I had boobs" or "I would love myself if I were a man on the outside" are all just different ways of saying "I Do Not Love Myself". Until that changes there is no amount of surgery, hormones or pharmaceuticals that will solve the problem.

Part of the problem is also that we are looking at the issue as something that's binary. You are either a man or a woman. If our culture allowed for gender ambiguity the idea of sexual re-assignment surgery would probably disappear.

[Latrinsorm]

I hear what you're saying and it's a complicated issue. To me it's still comes down to an externalization. "he would love me if I had big boobs" or "I would love myself if I had boobs" or "I would love myself if I were a man on the outside" are all just different ways of saying "I Do Not Love Myself". Until that changes there is no amount of surgery, hormones or pharmaceuticals that will solve the problem.

How do you explain, then, why so many people report such relief after having such treatment? Or amputations for body integrity identity disorder? Isn't it plausible that there is something hardwired in the brain that says "you are a man" or "that is not your arm", and that conforming the external body to this wiring will relieve the dissonance and therefore distress? Or put another way, that the distress isn't due to software but hardware? You can't fix a cracked motherboard no matter how many times you defragment, and by analogy you can't fix being transgendered by adopting a self-love mantra. In each case, sooner or later you've got to get under the hood.

Of course, in both cases there are massive social stigmas to deal with, and just like a soldier with PTSD being chronologically removed from the past trauma has very, very little therapeutic value, but that doesn't indicate a problem with the treatment in itself.

Part of the problem is also that we are looking at the issue as something that's binary. You are either a man or a woman. If our culture allowed for gender ambiguity the idea of sexual re-assignment surgery would probably disappear.

I think you are overly optimistic both on the efficacy and feasibility of that solution.

[Savrin]

This analogy is not properly constructed. My reason against free liposuction wasn't that obesity wasn't dangerous, but that the non-surgical alternative is available and possibly more effective. Counseling cannot take the place of surgery (et al) in the same way for transgender, although certainly both should be available. One way that trans and PTSD are different is that PTSD doesn't necessarily require medication or surgery, but both Zoloft and Paxil (to name two) are specifically prescribed as treatments for it. Would we be having this discussion if a veteran with PTSD committed a crime and received those prescriptions gratis? If not, how is trans less continually traumatic? The people in question with PTSD aren't in combat zones any more, but the transgender person is in the wrong body every minute of every day.

The non-surgical alternatives to Gender Identity Disorder appears to be fairly effective in most cases, according to one of the news articles I read. Sorry that I don't remember which one it was or I'd share it. The case we're discussing concerns one that was touted as a more extreme case as there were two attempts at suicide and one attempt at self castration. Hopefully my analogy is less broken now.

I haven't argued about prisoners receiving drug treatments for mental health disorders. That's a whole other can of worms sir

I have a hard time believing they are in the wrong body. It's the one they were born in after all. If the USB port isn't wired to the hard drive correctly, you don't cut it out of the tower case and wire an SD reader in its place. You rewire it.