Voter fraud - alive in well in Georgia

[Tgo01]

More states do not have voter ID laws than states that do. In none of them has there ever been any significant amount of voter fraud to legitimize any sort of voter ID law designed to combat a non-existing problem.

So we wait until it becomes a problem before we do something?

Data actually supports the claim of potential disenfranchisement while arguments based upon voter registration in voter ID states doesn't prove or disprove anything.

Well isn't that dandy, the data that backs up your argument is valid while any data at hand that disproves your argument isn't valid.

[Tsa`ah]

How hard is it to get an ID, damn. Hell, where I live you register to vote at the DMV anyways. I really don't see what the big deal is. You use your ID for a lot of stuff way less important.

Or how about having the requirements to get a license being useable at the polling place? You know, a birth certificate and a SS card. That is stuff pretty much everyone should have.

It seems this needs to be repeated.

Data actually supports the claim of potential disenfranchisement while arguments based upon voter registration in voter ID states doesn't prove or disprove anything. Especially when we already have cases of pre-id voters not being able to obtain an ID to vote post ID laws.

13 million citizens do not have ready access to citizenship documents.

12% of voting age citizens earning under 25k do not have ready access to citizenship documents.

32 million voting-age women may have available only proof of citizenship documents that do not reflect their current name.

[Gelston]

I guess credit/debit card disenfranchisement is live and well in the United States.

If you can't obtain or don't have an ID, how the hell do you prove you are you? How do you buy a car, buy a house, rent an apartment, anything like that? Dumb arguement. Thanks.

[Tsa`ah]

So we wait until it becomes a problem before we do something?

You would actually have to prove instances of actual voter fraud are on the rise and at a rate that would actually have an impact on any given election.

Sorry ... this isn't happening.

Your position is a poor one. We can substitute voter fraud, in your statement, for anything.

So we wait until people are killed by falling sky before we do something?

Well isn't that dandy, the data that backs up your argument is valid while any data at hand that disproves your argument isn't valid.

This is actual data produced from actual academic studies on the subject. Provide me with an academic study that shows in person voter fraud has an actual impact on elections and I'll jump on board the voter ID train with the sine qua non of the entire process being fee-less and transportation being provided when the need exists.

[Tsa`ah]

I guess credit/debit card disenfranchisement is live and well in the United States.

If you can't obtain or don't have an ID, how the hell do you prove you are you? How do you buy a car, buy a house, rent an apartment, anything like that? Dumb arguement. Thanks.

If you're making under 25k a year ... I doubt you do any of those outside of rent unless you want to be branded financially and personally irresponsible by ignorant neo-cons.

Never mind that I don't need ID to buy a car if I'm paying cash. I don't need a license or ID to buy a car or register it ... I need a DL to drive it.

While there are many things that require an ID of some form to do, voting should not be one of them unless the ID, the forms to obtain said ID, and transportation (when necessary) to the required facilities are at no cost.

My issue is the potential disenfranchisement of minority and poor voters as well as establishing what is essentially a poll tax.

[Gelston]

You need an ID to buy a car from a dealership. You need an ID to register that car. you need an ID to transfer the title of that car. Oh, and also to get insurance on that car aswell.

On top of that, as I said, things issued from birth, such as Brith Certificates combined with an SS card would be sufficient. Those are both free items. As is a voter registration card.

I make under 25k a year, I'm a college student. I have ID. Explain that buddy.

[Tgo01]

So we wait until people are killed by falling sky before we do something?

Except we could quite easily combat potential voter fraud, tell me of an easy and cheap way to combat people dying from 'falling sky' and I'll give that some thought as well.

This is actual data produced from actual academic studies on the subject. Provide me with an academic study that shows in person voter fraud has an actual impact on elections and I'll jump on board the voter ID train with the sine qua non of the entire process being fee-less and transportation being provided when the need exists.

Except I'm not making the argument that in person voter fraud is having an actual impact on elections, I'm arguing against voter ID laws lead to disenfranchisement.

[Tsa`ah]

You need an ID to buy a car from a dealership. You need an ID to register that car. you need an ID to transfer the title of that car. Oh, and also to get insurance on that car aswell.

So if you're poor you should go to a car dealership all the time?

As for the ID requirement ... I guess that is state dependent. I didn't need to show my DL to transfer a title or for registration. Yes it is required ... no they don't need to see it. The same for insurance.

So the argument that a poll judge should need to see my ID sort of falls flat in your argument.

On top of that, as I said, things issued from birth, such as Brith Certificates combined with an SS card would be sufficient. Those are both free items. As is a voter registration card.

The social security card is certainly free ... the birth certificate certainly is not. Or at least not in every instance. Never mind that social security offices aren't in every town ... nor are DL offices. Not everyone owns a car and not everyone can take a day off of work to go sit in line 50 miles away.

I don't need to show my id to register to vote. Nor do I need to show my ID to vote. The signature I provide when I arrive at my polling station is my ID ... as it is compared to the signature on the registration.

I make under 25k a year, I'm a college student. I have ID. Explain that buddy.

Easily ... you're not part of the 12% that doesn't have ready access to documents that prove citizenry. A college student should have picked up on that.

Except we could quite easily combat potential voter fraud, tell me of an easy and cheap way to combat people dying from 'falling sky' and I'll give that some thought as well.

Require every person to wear a hard hat while not underneath a fixed structure that provides coverage.

Both are absurd since neither constitutes a potential threat even worth combating.

Except I'm not making the argument that in person voter fraud is having an actual impact on elections, I'm arguing against voter ID laws lead to disenfranchisement.

Then you should be able to provide some academic source that backs up your position.

The only reason we would need voter ID laws is if voter fraud, and no other reason, were a realistic problem that affected the outcomes of elections.

[Gelston]

Hmm.. So I guess I'm not considered a poor voter in your opinion then?

[Tsa`ah]

Hmm.. So I guess I'm not considered a poor voter in your opinion then?

Never did I even imply that. Just because you're not part of a specific percentage of poor people does not mean that percentage does not exist.