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Thread: Edwards embraces socialized medicine as platform component.

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gan View Post
    The funding for this is proposed through eliminating the existing tax cuts/loopholes for those who make 200k/yr or more. I have two problems with this. First I dont see the increased tax revenue equalling the cost of insuring those who do not currently pay under an existing plan especially if those being offered coverage really run up the tab with major medical procedures. Secondly what makes Edwards think that the folks who found the loopholes in the first place (those gaming the tax system) wont find more loopholes thus reducing the amount of revenue required to prop up this system in its 2nd and subsequent years? Its an established fact that those having to pay the taxes are a lot smarter about the system than the legislators who create/manage it.

    I also have an issue with making employers pay for more thus reducing the amount necessary for employees to pay. Here is where he's playing on the ignorance of those who do pay for coverage under an employer sponsored plan. Most employee plans are already paid in part by the employer. This ratio ranges from 50% employee/50% employer contribution to 100% employer contribution. The norm I've seen ranges from 75% employer/25% employee contribution to 70/30%. By requiring the employer to cover more of the contribution level you are going to force the employer to minimize costs in other areas to remain competetive (cost reduction in things such as land/labor/capital/investment) which in turn will eventually make them non-competetive. Or the employer will just pass the costs (in a non-competetive market) right along to the consumer. Either way the employee pays in the long run.

    Bottom line, people pay for insurance because they know it will benefit them when they need healthcare. Insurance companies offer insurance with the idea that on average they can make a profit off of incoming premium as compared to outgoing provider payment expenses.

    Same thing can be said for car insurance, home insurance, or any other insurance.

    If someone really wants to make a difference, then they should deregulate the provider availability and let people or employers buy into large premium pools which in turn drives down premium costs per individual. As it stands, pools are focused by employer, so those smaller employers have smaller premium available pools ergo their premium costs are higher.

    As long as healthcare is non-nationalized then there must be an opportunity for profit in order to attract participants into the market. Otherwise who would want to participate in a market where there is no profit? (government agencies not included)
    I aggree with everything you say but the highlighted paragraph because it would still not address the underlying problem in our healthcare system. If someone really wanted to make a difference, they'd set up a national Blue Cross that incorporated all funds currently allocated to medicare and medicaid to pay costs for those too poor to afford healthcare along with a healthcare tax credit to businesses and individuals roughly equaling the premium they'd pay if they elected to be included. Couple that with giving this organization negotiating power with drug companies and hospital, and opening up government run clinics for checkups and early diagnosis and we'd have a system to be envied.

    We'd would not only provide healthcare fo all Americans, but also force change in the current practices of all health insurance providers. The ability to negotiate with drug companies and hospitals along with full time clinics to handle routine checkups and early diagnosis would help minimise the increased costs, and the huge savings would remove a huge burden from the business community.
    I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.
    -- Thomas Carlyle

    Quote Originally Posted by Parkbandit View Post
    OMG NO! CHILLMASTER DOESN'T RESPECT ME!

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Latrinsorm View Post
    $120b to 300m people = 400 dollars per person per year. I spent more than that in copays this year.

    Well, it's unrealistic to require people to visit their doctor for preventive medicine and wellness exams. Nothing wrong with the expectation, but it just won't happen.

    It's not unrealistic to think 120 billion won't stretch to cover 300 million people. I doubt the Fed is going to shell out 120 and let corporate medicine charge 50 bucks for a Tylenol III, or 200 bucks for a chest X-ray. Like any HMO or PPO, there will be price negotiations and likely government oversights to make sure (laughably) the tax payers aren't getting boned with overinflated charges and unnecessary procedures (see botox etc).

    However, Edwards isn't embracing socialized medicine, he's embracing subsidized medine.
    Last edited by Tsa`ah; 09-03-2007 at 05:38 PM.

  3. Default

    On the OP...

    Preventative care is the way to go. It saves money in the long run. If every American received preventative care, and health issues were dealt with early and treatable, thus preventing costly end care, the system could pay for itself for what it saves. Insurance companies could benefit as well. And anyone could pay more for better if they had the income.

    Another aspect to this is GDP. If we keep the lower income workers and their families healthy without them going bankrupt it helps our country in the long term.

    Universal health care is efficient in the big picture.

  4. #14

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    Personally, if we're going to do "free" healthcare for everyone, we should also do free meals, free housing and free transportation. And that's just to begin with... after that, we should let the individual decide on whether or not they want to work for a living... and if they pursue other dreams, we should subsidize their efforts.

    Hug a tree today.. because tomorrow they will all be gone.

    Thanks
    RETARD HALL OF FAME

    Quote Originally Posted by Back View Post
    There will be no war when guns are more regulated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashliana View Post
    "I originally created an additional account back in the day to mess with the reputation system" Rep system came in 3 months later...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsa`ah View Post
    Well tell that to the Naval hospital that issued a birth certificate labeled Ft Lejeune ... and then typed it in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Back View Post
    3 million more popular votes. I'd say the numbers speak for themselves. Gerrymandering won for Trump.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkbandit View Post
    Personally, if we're going to do "free" healthcare for everyone, we should also do free meals, free housing and free transportation. And that's just to begin with... after that, we should let the individual decide on whether or not they want to work for a living... and if they pursue other dreams, we should subsidize their efforts.

    Hug a tree today.. because tomorrow they will all be gone.

    Thanks
    Here's a guy who obviously hasn't examined this issue at all, but even in his ignorance he still finds a way to form an opinion.

    For you bleeding hearts out there: pass on hugging a tree and hug a Republican. He's either a complete fucking moron, a closet homosexual who's living a lie, or a real conservative who's heartbroken that the first two have taken over his party.
    I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.
    -- Thomas Carlyle

    Quote Originally Posted by Parkbandit View Post
    OMG NO! CHILLMASTER DOESN'T RESPECT ME!

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Karma View Post
    On the OP...

    Preventative care is the way to go. It saves money in the long run. If every American received preventative care, and health issues were dealt with early and treatable, thus preventing costly end care, the system could pay for itself for what it saves. Insurance companies could benefit as well. And anyone could pay more for better if they had the income.

    Another aspect to this is GDP. If we keep the lower income workers and their families healthy without them going bankrupt it helps our country in the long term.

    Universal health care is efficient in the big picture.
    By that logic then it seems a natural step to consider the following:

    If the government is going to mandate preventative care, then they should also mandate a ban on smoking, drinking, eating foods that are bad for you, and engaging in any behavior that would be construed a health risk of any sort. Because now that the state is responsible for your health it will take any and all necessary steps to prevent those who are irresponsible with it from being a burden upon the rest of society.

    On the other hand, personal freedom is also a big player in the big picture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kranar View Post
    If you can't handle some offensive content on a real time message board, then don't read them.
    Tough times never last but tough people do. -Robert H Schuller.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by chillmonster View Post
    Here's a guy who obviously hasn't examined this issue at all, but even in his ignorance he still finds a way to form an opinion.

    For you bleeding hearts out there: pass on hugging a tree and hug a Republican. He's either a complete fucking moron, a closet homosexual who's living a lie, or a real conservative who's heartbroken that the first two have taken over his party.
    wait for it...



    wait for it....
    Quote Originally Posted by Kranar View Post
    If you can't handle some offensive content on a real time message board, then don't read them.
    Tough times never last but tough people do. -Robert H Schuller.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by chillmonster View Post
    Here's a guy who obviously hasn't examined this issue at all, but even in his ignorance he still finds a way to form an opinion.

    For you bleeding hearts out there: pass on hugging a tree and hug a Republican. He's either a complete fucking moron, a closet homosexual who's living a lie, or a real conservative who's heartbroken that the first two have taken over his party.
    You calling anyone ignorant is a joke. You've quickly filled the void left by Backlash in the stupidity department.

    I value your opinion right next to the other dumb fucking liberals on this board. Backlash, Ilvane and now Chillmonster.

    I give you 6 months to have your breakdown.. where you delete a bunch of posts then change your login to start fresh.

    either way, you've earned this award today:



    Oh, and please save your next post of "OMG! why do you always have to insult people.. why can't you just debate the issue!" so I don't have to call you out for being a hypocrite as well as being dumb as used tampon.
    RETARD HALL OF FAME

    Quote Originally Posted by Back View Post
    There will be no war when guns are more regulated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashliana View Post
    "I originally created an additional account back in the day to mess with the reputation system" Rep system came in 3 months later...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsa`ah View Post
    Well tell that to the Naval hospital that issued a birth certificate labeled Ft Lejeune ... and then typed it in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Back View Post
    3 million more popular votes. I'd say the numbers speak for themselves. Gerrymandering won for Trump.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkbandit View Post
    You calling anyone ignorant is a joke. You've quickly filled the void left by Backlash in the stupidity department.

    I value your opinion right next to the other dumb fucking liberals on this board. Backlash, Ilvane and now Chillmonster.

    I give you 6 months to have your breakdown.. where you delete a bunch of posts then change your login to start fresh.

    either way, you've earned this award today:



    Oh, and please save your next post of "OMG! why do you always have to insult people.. why can't you just debate the issue!" so I don't have to call you out for being a hypocrite as well as being dumb as used tampon.

    Note that this fucking stupid bastard still hasn't offered a single idea about healthcare reform. He either throws support behing Gan's arguments or relies on cliche' and shitty humor because he doesn't have a single thing to say.

    And please, don't flatter yourself. I don't debate morons, so save your next ignorant fucking comment for someone who actually respects you enough to take you seriously.
    I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.
    -- Thomas Carlyle

    Quote Originally Posted by Parkbandit View Post
    OMG NO! CHILLMASTER DOESN'T RESPECT ME!

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by chillmonster View Post
    Note that this fucking stupid bastard still hasn't offered a single idea about healthcare reform. He either throws support behing Gan's arguments or relies on cliche' and shitty humor because he doesn't have a single thing to say.

    And please, don't flatter yourself. I don't debate morons, so save your next ignorant fucking comment for someone who actually respects you enough to take you seriously.
    OMG NO! CHILLMASTER DOESN'T RESPECT ME! WHAT TO DO!!!

    Oh wait.. who the fuck is Chillmaster? That's right.. no one.

    My stance on healthcare is pretty well documented on this forum... I don't think it's my responsibility to regurgitate that which I've already stated for the stupid people.

    But.. in the spirit of being open minded, I'm going to go to 5 of my neighbors and beg them to pay for my healthcare. If any of them agrees to it, then maybe I'll take another look at this 'free' healthcare for all.
    RETARD HALL OF FAME

    Quote Originally Posted by Back View Post
    There will be no war when guns are more regulated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashliana View Post
    "I originally created an additional account back in the day to mess with the reputation system" Rep system came in 3 months later...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsa`ah View Post
    Well tell that to the Naval hospital that issued a birth certificate labeled Ft Lejeune ... and then typed it in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Back View Post
    3 million more popular votes. I'd say the numbers speak for themselves. Gerrymandering won for Trump.

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