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Thread: Rogue service proposal

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius1 View Post
    Uh huh, sure.

    The reality is it will pretty much destroy what little pickpocketing CvC there is, as the system is already beleaguered as it is.
    Our definitions of CvC are very different. Pickpocketing a player does not allow for the other person to respond if they discover you've been stealing from them. All they can do is get mad @ you, and yell about it "in character". That's not CvC from my perspective. CvC would be if you steal, you're flagged "free to kill" and they have the right to hunt you down and retrieve their items by searching your corpse. And then, it would have to opened up to more than just the player stolen from as often a capped thief could steal from a low level character who has no chance of retaliation on their own, so they would need the option to get others involved...

    Ultimately, the way the justice system works actively prevents CvC in this context.
    Last edited by Maerit; 06-28-2022 at 10:40 AM.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maerit View Post
    Our definitions of CvC are very different. Pickpocketing a player does not allow for the other person to respond if they discover you've been stealing from them. All they can do is get mad @ you, and yell about it "in character". That's not CvC from my perspective. CvC would be if you steal, you're flagged "free to kill" and they have the right to hunt you down and retrieve their items by searching your corpse. And then, it would have to opened up to more than just the player stolen from as often a capped thief could steal from a low level character who has no chance of retaliation on their own, so they would need the option to get others involved...

    Ultimately, the way the justice system works actively prevents CvC in this context.
    Last I heard, which was years ago, was that if you catch someone in your pockets (though apparently your character has to see it, as putting 2+2 together when you watch them put your stuff in their pockets isn't good enough for some reason iirc), you're allowed 1 "retaliation" i.e. you can kill them once without any GM bullshit happening.

    Though I wouldn't be surprised if whiners got that changed at some point.
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  3. Default

    Lots to talk about with the Rogue service proposal. Most of it is good. The only real thing I am disliking is how the service proposal is being completely overshadowed by the SET NOSTEAL ON flag. People are REALLY up in arms about this. Even in this topic. Discord looks like someone kicked a hornet nest into a larger hornet nest. Let me just give my 2 cents before talking about the service.

    I am in favor of the flag because GS4 is not set up to properly support pickpocketing players. Bottom line is this: if someone steals from me, I have no way to force them to give back what they took. Even if the JUSTICE system was set up to punish them, I still don't get the stolen goods back. Hell, I can't even try to kill them as punishment because GS4 is very anti-pvp. And that alone is enough of a contradiction to sour me on the system. Not to mention, I've seen it used to bully younger characters who don't know any better and cannot defend themselves.

    As far as I am concerned, CvC RP comes second to the mechanics and if the system is bad, it will just be abused.


    The Rogue service is amazing! I was almost certain they were going to do a +SMR roll thing for gear but Covert Arts is a MUCH better idea. First, I love how Rogues automatically know an Art if they meet the skill requirements without having to endlessly grind like other professions for gear boosts. That lets the Rogue save all those Guile points for teaching others.

    Sidestep
    Lots of dodging. Against AoEs, against SMR, and even phantom ranks to outright dodge attacks! Counterstep looks pretty cool. Being able to auto-dodge with is a mini-version of Duck and Weave is great for 10 stamina is a good deal. It isn't the end all defensive tool. Cooldown and SMR roll aside, you can still be tagged by warding spells, maneuvers, and MSTRIKE. Seems like good balance.

    Keen Eye
    The SMR bonus is be draw here. Not dying is great and I think this applies offensive rolls too. The passive to find kids and hidden creatures and passages is a bit meh but I would have to see it in act to know how useful it is. The Perception bonus against ambush is a confusing one for me. I was told awhile ago that Perception is capped at 2x when prevent DS pushdown against ambushing. Does this mean that cap is gone now? Would the Rogue's 3x Perception FINALLY have a purpose? Hard to judge without knowing for sure.

    Escape Artist
    I assume the bandit trap bonus is OK and getting some FoF bonus it helpful considering how expensive MoC is. The Rooted defense is one that might be good but I don't know since I have no idea what counts as "Rooted" in GS4. Bind? Webbed? Critter Maneuvers? If I knew more I could judge it better. This is alright I guess.

    Swift Recovery
    Lower heirloom search time down could be really useful depending on the hunting ground. Getting a 10 second RT while kneeling with empty hands is scary. The Stagger defense is pretty strong and might be a life saver. I was told the Health regen was there as padding and it shows. It is a very boring bonus. Now the Rogue specific stuff is where this gets good. Lower Stun Maneuver time is great but the Stamina Recovery bonus is AMAZING. Naijin even said this was done to make up for Rogues only being able to 2x PF. So Rogues get the stamina recovery as if they had 3x PF but without the Redux boost. Fair trade. I love this one!

    Poisoncraft
    Right off the bat needing Survival might cause issues for some builds. If you are a skinner, you are fine but not a lot of Rogue pick up Survival when there are better things to train. Instant kill ambushing is what Rogues do, so I don't expect this to be super useful most of the time. That aside, the real draw is the Deadly Poisons. If you can't kill a target in one shot, you might be get the kill with +damage or poison. Wounded is interesting since it could make hunting trolls and the like easier. I think this one is worth a try but might end up being subpar.

    Lastly, I'll say that I like the idea of finally having a use for the Pickpocket skill outside of CvC. The Covert Arts teaching formula uses it and now you can steal from critters, shops, and some NPCs. This remains to be seen how useful stealing from enemies is but it might just be an extra command done before you ambush and you get more silver per hours as a result. Time for Rogues to finally train in Pickpocket if they haven't already.

    This combined with PSM Phase 3 is enough for me to consider coming back to the game. Now if they can only get those Ascension Archetypes in the game...
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    You're giving people the choice to participate if they want to, if you want them to participate there needs to be a worthwhile incentive. I don't know maybe there's always flat percentage to catch a thief regardless of training and if you catch them you take 10,000 of their experience instantly! You'll have heck of a lot more people choosing to leave the flag on.

    Also stealing needs to be taken out of the character trainer and should be treated like an artisan skill, you'll get more people participating if a lvl 20 person feels they have a chance of defending themselves against a 40m post capped Rogue with the potential to gain something from the thief.
    Isn't Candor like level 50? Your suggestion would make pickpocketing basically unviable unless you are capped or near capped, as being low level results in getting caught significantly more often.

    I am in favor of the flag because GS4 is not set up to properly support pickpocketing players. Bottom line is this: if someone steals from me, I have no way to force them to give back what they took. Even if the JUSTICE system was set up to punish them, I still don't get the stolen goods back. Hell, I can't even try to kill them as punishment because GS4 is very anti-pvp. And that alone is enough of a contradiction to sour me on the system. Not to mention, I've seen it used to bully younger characters who don't know any better and cannot defend themselves.
    I'd be ok with the stolen goods being returned. That's certainly a better fix than an OOC flag that has no possible in character explanation to it.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Methais View Post
    Last I heard, which was years ago, was that if you catch someone in your pockets (though apparently your character has to see it, as putting 2+2 together when you watch them put your stuff in their pockets isn't good enough for some reason iirc), you're allowed 1 "retaliation" i.e. you can kill them once without any GM bullshit happening.

    Though I wouldn't be surprised if whiners got that changed at some point.
    You're allowed to kill them in retaliation outside of town. The town justice mechanics prevent you from doing anything in town, and also there's no way to retrieve whatever was stolen. I'm not sure anything of real value gets taken anyway, but pick pockets can prey on targets that wouldn't stand a chance retaliating much less catching them in the act, so it's definitely not a "CvC" experience.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maerit View Post
    You're allowed to kill them in retaliation outside of town. The town justice mechanics prevent you from doing anything in town, and also there's no way to retrieve whatever was stolen. I'm not sure anything of real value gets taken anyway, but pick pockets can prey on targets that wouldn't stand a chance retaliating much less catching them in the act, so it's definitely not a "CvC" experience.
    You could still ACCUSE them and they'd have to go sit in jail for a while, which would probably be more inconvenient than dying and getting raised, but yeah, having no way to recover the stolen item has always been pretty balls, and they should have updated the town justice to not consider a retaliation kill as "murder."

    The other issue, they could just make level be a factor similar to how exp works as far as cleaning out people way below them goes. Wouldn't make any sense in character, but neither does having a flag.

    Pickpocketing is largely useless either way though in its current form, and I'm glad it's getting some buffs to work on NPCs/critters.
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  7. #27

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    The "consent" argument being bandied about in discord is intriguing, like a guy lightning his own farts on fire is intriguing. That's like saying you want to play Mario brothers, but don't "consent" to Koopa assaulting you. All you want to do is pick up mushrooms and dance around the world.

    Guess what, the answer is not to nerf the game into oblivion and turn it into SafeSpaceStoneV. Maybe you shouldn't be playing an open world game.
    Discord: Jivan#1805

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLZrizz View Post
    The "consent" argument being bandied about in discord is intriguing, like a guy lightning his own farts on fire is intriguing. That's like saying you want to play Mario brothers, but don't "consent" to Koopa assaulting you. All you want to do is pick up mushrooms and dance around the world.

    Guess what, the answer is not to nerf the game into oblivion and turn it into SafeSpaceStoneV. Maybe you shouldn't be playing an open world game.
    Discord is stage 4 cancer for GS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back View Post
    I am a retard. I'm disabled. I'm poor. I'm black. I'm gay. I'm transgender. I'm a woman. I'm diagnosed with cancer. I'm a human being.
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    So here's the deal- I am just horrible



  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Methais View Post
    You could still ACCUSE them and they'd have to go sit in jail for a while, which would probably be more inconvenient than dying and getting raised, but yeah, having no way to recover the stolen item has always been pretty balls, and they should have updated the town justice to not consider a retaliation kill as "murder."

    The other issue, they could just make level be a factor similar to how exp works as far as cleaning out people way below them goes. Wouldn't make any sense in character, but neither does having a flag.

    Pickpocketing is largely useless either way though in its current form, and I'm glad it's getting some buffs to work on NPCs/critters.
    If you use the CHALLENGE verb, you can murder for theft with no charges against you.

    If you're caught stealing you can't refuse the challenge either
    Last edited by rolfard; 06-28-2022 at 12:47 PM.

  10. #30

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    I've intimated that instituting the NOSTEAL flag would cause me to take a hard look at leaving (with my annual revenue) for good. I signed up for open world play and interaction, not safe space. Again, I'm a warrior and would stand only to gain from the flag, financially. But the loss of yet another open world aspect of the game is massively immersion breaking for me.

    Of all the things that would get me to consider leaving, I never thought it would be some side issue like this. Color me surprised.
    Discord: Jivan#1805

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