14 Mass Shootings in the USA Over Memorial Day Weekend

[~Rocktar~]

You should just be honest. You want the Democrats to be able to riot and burn down private property every election season and not get shot in the face while doing so.

This is correct.

[Neveragain]

This is correct.

My mind is drawing a blank...what was the name of that organization, that Democrats founded, that terrorized and set aflame black business's, homes and didn't want black people to have guns?

[~Rocktar~]

My mind is drawing a blank...what was the name of that organization, that Democrats founded, that terrorized and set aflame black business's, homes and didn't want black people to have guns?

The Rotary club?

[Menos]

Hey speaking of twisting numbers which plainly show a higher per capita death rate due to gun violence in state's without gun laws, you're claiming that's just because people are killing themselves. Alright, so let's pretend the suicide rate is soo high in those states, that it grossly inflates the per capita homicide rates, that's not problematic in itself? Life is so hard people are desperate enough to buy guns and kill themselves, that is such a major read flag as people think guns will solve their problems. Maybe that's why red states enjoy higher per capita gun homicides, which is the chief reason to control them in the first place.

It is exactly my point that the data provided does not clearly show a greater level of violence correlated to gun laws. The "firearms deaths" (measured variable) number includes a subset of total violence (gun murders while excluding other murders) combined with other causes of mortality (gun suicides while excluding other suicides). This means that any changes in "firearms deaths" will thus include effects of gun laws, differences in total violence, differences in total suicides and the means of suicide at the same time. I then showed that suicides number was the major driving factor in the differences between states, not murders (at least in these specific examples).

The best chance to support a causal relationship with statistics is when you can eliminate complicating effects from other causes, removing those things that may show a change in your measured variable for reasons not specific to the hypothesis tested. This is particularly true if you are including effects that could correlate without a causal relationship. The method by which a person carries out a suicide is not (or not wholly) the cause of that suicide. Access to a gun can increase the likelihood it is used for that purpose without increasing the chance a person would commit the act. This is why I included the example of access to a car increasing the chance of doing self harm via car.

This does not even get into the granular details, such as States where cities have very different firearms laws in practice compared to rural areas (like NYC vs upstate NY). Speaking of cities and local laws...

image_2022-06-06_012654762.jpg

Please Observe the graph above. For 2020, 31,711 firearms deaths occurred in a metro area and 490 happened outside of metro areas based on CDC data. Does this indicate that metro areas are the cause of all firearms deaths? Of course not, and to say it does would just as dubious as claiming firearms laws are the cause. Being in the city and firearms deaths may be correlated more strongly than gun laws are, but there are so many other factors related to being in a city (population density, gang activity, age demographics, total populations) that are complicating the analysis.

Or to use a rather famous example. Even though corndogs consumption is correlated with hot weather in the midwest, eating corndogs does not cause the temperature to increase and being hot doesn't make people more likely to eat corndogs. It is just that people eat corndogs at the fair and the fair happens in the summer when it is hot outside.

If you are still reading and open to suggestions, please consider this. People on the other side of the debate may have come to a different conclusion on gun laws for other reasons than that they are the embodiment of evil and want children to be murdered. They can be looking at the same set of data, be making an honest and fair (as far as humans are able) assessment, and still decided a different course of action than you want is better.

This is the course of action they've charted.

[Menos]

You should just be honest. You want the Democrats to be able to riot and burn down private property every election season and not get shot in the face while doing so.

You mean shot in the heart, aorta, right lung, pelvis, and right arm.

[Realk]

The Uvalde shooter bought his guns that week. The Tulsa shooter bought his gun that same day. How about we start with that? Getting a gun should be harder than buying a house, in terms of the process.

Strong chance that if both of those shooters weren't able to buy their weapons that quickly they don't commit those crimes.

See? Don't be so lazy. Or perhaps you endorse mass murder like most Republicans?

I have not read further in this thread to this post... Did you really just say buying a gun should be harder than buying a house?

by the same notion i shouldnt be able to have a truck that weighs 5000 lbs cause it's dangerous but I still do with a class C drivers license. Where the fuck do you want the slippery slope to end on your rights.

[Shaps]

If they put up one graph for people to see... it would be the CDC's WISQARS data. Of course, the Lefty politicians never will.... https://wisqars.cdc.gov

Homicides by Firearm 2020: 19.5k

To put this in perspective - The Federal Government wants to rescind the rights of 350m+ people... for less than 20k deaths. That is 0.005% murdered by a firearm annually.

Every death is tragic, but there is no way full power, and control, should be ceded to a Government that is supposed to be answerable to it's citizens.... for 0.005%.

No way, no how.

[Methais]

I don’t think it’s as simple as that just like I don’t think it’s as simple as saying shootings happening in red state locations is because of loose gun laws. It’s much bigger than those simple statistics.

Gun control will never work, there needs to be a deeper dive in to education of gun safety, accountability and realistic alternatives like raising purchase age etc. even those steps will take a generation to really see any change. I think everyone’s problem is they need something immediate and that is unrealistic so as a result everyone is just sniping at one another and productivity to solutions/alternatives is in the shitter.

The majority of shootings in most/all of those cities are gang related and involved illegally possessed guns.

[Seran]

It is exactly my point that the data provided does not clearly show a greater level of violence correlated to gun laws. The "firearms deaths" (measured variable) number includes a subset of total violence (gun murders while excluding other murders) combined with other causes of mortality (gun suicides while excluding other suicides). This means that any changes in "firearms deaths" will thus include effects of gun laws, differences in total violence, differences in total suicides and the means of suicide at the same time. I then showed that suicides number was the major driving factor in the differences between states, not murders (at least in these specific examples).

The best chance to support a causal relationship with statistics is when you can eliminate complicating effects from other causes, removing those things that may show a change in your measured variable for reasons not specific to the hypothesis tested. This is particularly true if you are including effects that could correlate without a causal relationship. The method by which a person carries out a suicide is not (or not wholly) the cause of that suicide. Access to a gun can increase the likelihood it is used for that purpose without increasing the chance a person would commit the act. This is why I included the example of access to a car increasing the chance of doing self harm via car.

This does not even get into the granular details, such as States where cities have very different firearms laws in practice compared to rural areas (like NYC vs upstate NY). Speaking of cities and local laws...

image_2022-06-06_012654762.jpg

Please Observe the graph above. For 2020, 31,711 firearms deaths occurred in a metro area and 490 happened outside of metro areas based on CDC data. Does this indicate that metro areas are the cause of all firearms deaths? Of course not, and to say it does would just as dubious as claiming firearms laws are the cause. Being in the city and firearms deaths may be correlated more strongly than gun laws are, but there are so many other factors related to being in a city (population density, gang activity, age demographics, total populations) that are complicating the analysis.

Or to use a rather famous example. Even though corndogs consumption is correlated with hot weather in the midwest, eating corndogs does not cause the temperature to increase and being hot doesn't make people more likely to eat corndogs. It is just that people eat corndogs at the fair and the fair happens in the summer when it is hot outside.

If you are still reading and open to suggestions, please consider this. People on the other side of the debate may have come to a different conclusion on gun laws for other reasons than that they are the embodiment of evil and want children to be murdered. They can be looking at the same set of data, be making an honest and fair (as far as humans are able) assessment, and still decided a different course of action than you want is better.

This is the course of action they've charted.

I fully recognize that people are often mislead by people who take objective facts, then twist them to say the exact opposite and this forum is the quantifiable heart of dishonest conservatism. But the side I'm arguing is backed up by dead bodies riddled with bullet holes that in many cases could be avoided by even reasonable gun control. The side the Right is arguing against is that dead children murdered by legally bought semi automatic rifles can only be cured by more people having AR-15s, a faulty argument which is made all the more audacious by the number of countries with very few gun deaths as they outright ban the private ownership of firearms except under very exacting, well regulated circumstances.

The Right, through the NRA and Conservative Media is feeding the seditious lie that disarmament is purely a mechanism to destroy all individual freedoms and championing armament is the only means of fighting back. Look at the number of manifestos put there with people who use guns as a way of getting n what they want or making themselves a martyr so they can be "heard". Reasonable gun laws are the way forward, but you can't negotiate with people whose only compromise is abolishing all gun laws.

[Methais]

Strong chance that if both of those shooters weren't able to buy their weapons that quickly they don't commit those crimes.

What specifically are you basing this on?