Divergence 2.0

[Orthin]

"Balance" is a matter of perspective and, in my opinion, Estild's perspective (and yours) is broken. Like I said, the only way combat can be enjoyable in this game is if they speed it up. Instead of slowing pures down to the glacial pace of squares, they should be finding ways to speed up their archaic weapon skill system. 5 seconds should not be the baseline. Arguably, 3 seconds is too slow given that the game has never moved away from RT as a global cooldown.

Consider an MMO like FFXIV. It has a very slow (by industry standards) GCD of 2.5 seconds. At lower levels players have very little access to skills that are off-cooldown (i.e. effects that can be used during the global cooldown). Later on this opens up a bit and players are kept busy utilizing skills between cooldowns. In GS-speak, this would be like having skills and procs that can occur while in RT.

Rather than thinking of 5 seconds of inaction as a proper baseline, they should be thinking of ways to keep players busy during that time. 3 seconds would be a better baseline, with ways of reducing that RT and introducing skills and procs that can be used during RT. In my opinion, rapid fire wizards are an example of this game doing it right. Where they get it wrong is not applying cooldowns to the meat-and-potatoes skills to avoid spam gameplay wherein players benefit from repeating the same skill over and over most of the time. We should be thinking faster, with more varied skills. Not slower so players sit in RT and watch combat play out while they're unable to do anything about it.

One of my favorite characters to play is my monk for this reason. at MAX my RT for a single action is 4 seconds. My openers/disablers are 2-3 seconds max and 3 of my 4 main attacks are either 2 seconds (jab) or 3 seconds (punch/grapple). At worst if I want to speed up my over all hunt I just mstrike the target which hits 3 times (currently) at 7 seconds versus my pally who swings 1 time with a 2HW in 6.

I love hunting and mixing it up with my monk but also in order to level in this game you are talking 100s of hours of repetition and those seconds add up. I get the game isn't all about your level but for folks that do want to level up it is pretty painful if you have to go 15-20 minutes per hunt. So if you are capped and grinding skill points would you prefer 6 minutes and chilling or 15-20 minutes and chilling. Me I am choosing 6 minutes over 15-20.

I also don't have as many pains as pures do when it comes to combat. Sure my TD blows as a monk and less so as a pally but my monk can throatchop pretty much anything I face with regularity. If I could though once we get to instant melt critters or strong casters that is a tough route to overcome. Not to mention charge absolutely wrecking any of my pures where as monk maybe might get hit but won't really impact me. There are a great deal of instant action attacks and WTF opens that seem to say "you better kill me now or else you will be hanging out for 45 minutes re-spelling".

[Mobius1]

The problem when people like you show support to the GMs when they decide to nerf things down for one or more classes because they're better at stuff then other classes is stupid.

You should be looking at the GMs and saying, "Stop. It's a bad move. You should be working on bring up the classes that lack in parity, not nerfing classes."

Don't ever give the GMs a nod of recognition when it comes to their ideas about nerfing things for any class. You are part of the problem if you're not telling them to stop.

I've done nothing but oppose Divergence on Discord when speaking with the GMs.

But I also admit that they have compelling arguments. I think it makes sense to test out a bunch of changes using Divergence. Nothing is set in stone yet, and almost certainly a lot of things will be tweaked, fine tuned, and potentially not even nerfed after all. I think that's better than them simply nerfing everything outright.

[Methais]

I didn't even mention ambush, so no.

Sure you did:

I just don't think the current system is balanced if you can aim spells. Sure, hard RT would be a potential fix, but physical attacks have other things they have to deal with besides hard RT, like armor. Also, would you have to train ambush or combat maneuvers to aim?

I did say that it would be better if things didn't have to be nerfed. If you've heard what I've been saying over the last few weeks, I'm actually against Divergence! But yeah, as I said, it doesn't mean I'll cry because of it - The reality is that it WILL make the game more balanced, and I do see where the GMs are coming from on this. Also, after hearing their claims, it's not as if they are being crazy and unreasonable. Again, I don't agree with it, but the fact that they are wanting to test it out, and pour over the statistical data and hear feedback, shows that they are genuine in what they are trying to do, and aren't just trying to slam everyone with nerfs to meet their personal agendas.

I don't disagree with the general idea, at least the buffing other professions part. It's their execution of it that will be a disaster, at least if their track record is anything to go by.

As for wizards aiming bolts? The whole point of divergence is to balance wizards and other classes, not take away one OP thing and give them something else to make up for it. Then what's the point of even having Divergence? Also, Divergence is not just nerfs, as it's buffing set up spells.

I'd prefer to bolt in the current form than to aim bolts and be stuck in hard RT. Aimed bolts via CHANNEL would still be a net nerf for wizards if it came at the expense of Rapid Fire, which it would. Anything that makes combat slower will make hunting more boring to me.

None of this really matters anyway though, because Estild's doubled down so many times against aiming bolts that his ego would prevent him from changing his mind at this point, no matter how much it might make sense as part of the inevitable wizard review, depending on how trashed everything is by the time that rolls around.

I guess you could say that Divergence will nerf me in one way, in that I use song of Tonis (which can actually be a 2 minute duration, as it is in my case.). But killing critters in 1 second like I can? Yeah, that's OP for sure and when it's nerfed I totally understand why.

The problem is combat has been like this for decades and a lot of people have been playing the same characters/builds for the entire time and are quite content with it. They (Simu) can't just uproot that and turn everything upside down and expect people to not have a problem with it, especially with their dev track record. They'll do it anyway because they're arrogant, but it's not going to have the results they think it will because the creativity to pull it off correctly just isn't there. I'd love to be wrong about everything.

Most issues could be addressed on the critter side of things instead of swinging the nerf bat around all over the place and making combat slower and more tedious/boring. But it would require a lot of creativity too. It's much easier in to just nerf some numbers and add cooldowns and other unimaginative tedium adding things, etc.

[Mobius1]

Sure you did:

Ahh, you're right, I forgot I had said that. But I wasn't intending to say Wizards should have to train ambush! That's why it was a question, mostly intended to point out that physical attacks require training a separate skill for aiming.

I don't disagree with the general idea, at least the buffing other professions part. It's their execution of it that will be a disaster, at least if their track record is anything to go by.



I'd prefer to bolt in the current form than to aim bolts and be stuck in hard RT. Aimed bolts via CHANNEL would still be a net nerf for wizards if it came at the expense of Rapid Fire, which it would. Anything that makes combat slower will make hunting more boring to me.

None of this really matters anyway though, because Estild's doubled down so many times against aiming bolts that his ego would prevent him from changing his mind at this point, no matter how much it might make sense as part of the inevitable wizard review, depending on how trashed everything is by the time that rolls around.

I'll apologize for the way I responded in my one post about wizard tears. Honestly a lot of that was just me reacting to Realk's post. But admittedly it's been a breath a fresh air to see many classes struggling in Atoll, when I am absolutely thriving there and haven't died a single time. It's hard to not feel that way as a square main, who has been at the bottom for so many years past. You can't blame me for deep inside being happy about it! But admittedly I was way too insensitive with how I spoke.

Also, after hearing Naijin's reasoning when he responded to me in Discord, made me at least understand and admit that some of my reason for being opposed to Divergence was unfounded. Still, I actually don't want it. Wizards already were nerfed before and I don't want them to be nerfed again (Even if my feelings on it are a bit mixed.).

At least none of this stuff is set in stone. I'm not sure if it will help, but perhaps if more wizards hunt in divergence areas, if can give the GMs more data to see that the nerfs are too much.

As for aimed bolts, I think I did say earlier that I think it's worth exploring. My comments against it were simply that it's not something so simple, and would need to take a lot of things into consideration to be balanced.

The problem is combat has been like this for decades and a lot of people have been playing the same characters/builds for the entire time and are quite content with it. They (Simu) can't just uproot that and turn everything upside down and expect people to not have a problem with it, especially with their dev track record. They'll do it anyway because they're arrogant, but it's not going to have the results they think it will because the creativity to pull it off correctly just isn't there. I'd love to be wrong about everything.

Most issues could be addressed on the critter side of things instead of swinging the nerf bat around all over the place and making combat slower and more tedious/boring. But it would require a lot of creativity too. It's much easier in to just nerf some numbers and add cooldowns and other unimaginative tedium adding things, etc.

I don't know. I feel like sometimes the nerf bat is the only good way. Me killing things in 1 second with Tonis is absurd, and I just don't see any defending it. Just because someone has abused it for so many years, doesn't mean it should continue. It's like bandits at KF. I was one of the people doing them, but I 100% agree with them putting a stop to it, as it was ridiculous. They are ruining my fun? That's just an excuse to try and keep overpowered or broken things.

[Methais]

I think that for many people, having to adapt to critters, use disablers, employ strategies, etc., is potentially more fun, like you mentioned with not simply repeating the same skills. I really don't think using 515 is a requirement for fun.

They were kind of on the right track with tap/stomp Tremors. That's a good example of a disabler that doesn't slow down combat, since when you TAP/STOMP to cause the tremor, it has 0 RT. So a macro like TAP\R INCANT 917\R has fun results. I forgot how many charges Tremors has, but it's a pretty good amount, and it stays pre-loaded for its duration.

That's the kind of thing they should be looking at if they're wanting to go heavy on disablers in combat. 909 is proof that it can be done without slowing shit down and forcing people to stare at RT counting down. Having to cast 909, wait 3 seconds, and then follow up with 917 or whatever would be slow, boring, and mostly ineffectual garbage.

I did see them mention something about possibly reducing RT for disabler spells. If so, most if not all disablers should take no longer than 1 second. But 2 seconds is still better than the current 3.

They could also adjust Rapid Fire to base its cast RT on what spell is being cast, i.e. spamming RF Immolate isn't going to be as fast as spamming RF 906, etc.

Rapid Fire is a total crutch for wizard bolts. It's a very effective crutch, but it's still a crutch, because overall, bolts suck, and that's the underlying issue wizards have been plagued with forever. For the most part, Rapid Fire is only overpowered when other professions use it.

[Mobius1]

They were kind of on the right track with tap/stomp Tremors. That's a good example of a disabler that doesn't slow down combat, since when you TAP/STOMP to cause the tremor, it has 0 RT. So a macro like TAP\R INCANT 917\R has fun results. I forgot how many charges Tremors has, but it's a pretty good amount, and it stays pre-loaded for its duration.

That's the kind of thing they should be looking at if they're wanting to go heavy on disablers in combat. 909 is proof that it can be done without slowing shit down and forcing people to stare at RT counting down. Having to cast 909, wait 3 seconds, and then follow up with 917 or whatever would be slow, boring, and mostly ineffectual garbage.

I did see them mention something about possibly reducing RT for disabler spells. If so, most if not all disablers should take no longer than 1 second. But 2 seconds is still better than the current 3.

They could also adjust Rapid Fire to base its cast RT on what spell is being cast, i.e. spamming RF Immolate isn't going to be as fast as spamming RF 906, etc.

Rapid Fire is a total crutch for wizard bolts. It's a very effective crutch, but it's still a crutch, because overall, bolts suck, and that's the underlying issue wizards have been plagued with forever. For the most part, Rapid Fire is only overpowered when other professions use it.

Well, I admittedly understand why they aren't giving an instant disabler, as the way the game currently is, other classes spend like 2-5 seconds on theirs. Most squares use stuff like warcry, feint, sweep, subdue, eviscerate, ewave, etc., to be able to successfully hunt. All of those have RT/CT (Obviously a lot of non-squares do too.). But they are trying to reduce the CT to make it be less slow for casters.

Actually, one of the ways I try to help rogues improve their combat, is getting them to try making small weapons work, without disablers, to speed things up considerably. Funny enough, a large amount of rogues don't like that and prefer to use setups and such (Granted, this is probably a large reason why we are rated at the bottom! ).

Also, I think it should be mentioned, that we have no idea what else is in the pipeline. There has been a lot of chatter about changing or moving spells, as well as whatever HW secret carrot is being worked on, and also Archetypes. Who knows what other plans they have.

Another thing that I have been harping on in Discord, is Spell Sever. It feels like 2 steps forward and one step back with warriors/rogues, because of that. Either you have a butt ton of spell ranks, or you are screwed. It's way worse than Divergence IMO, and especially isn't fair to lower XP characters. Spell Sever is basically "Get spells, get KS, or get screwed." It's certainly going to be harder for them to achieve balance, if they are freaking nerfing most squares with Spell Sever. I had proposed that they change it so that you can wear your class' spells with enough training in AS/MIU/HP, etc., like the other spellburst areas. So like a Spell Sever/Spellburst hybrid.

EDIT: I also hate how people say they should just boost other classes instead of nerfing, when a lot of those same people openly oppose boosts that are suggested to those classes.

[Methais]

Well, I admittedly understand why they aren't giving an instant disabler, as the way the game currently is, other classes spend like 2-5 seconds on theirs. Most squares use stuff like warcry, feint, sweep, subdue, eviscerate, ewave, etc., to be able to successfully hunt. All of those have RT/CT (Obviously a lot of non-squares do too.). But they are trying to reduce the CT to make it be less slow for casters.

Actually, one of the ways I try to help rogues improve their combat, is getting them to try making small weapons work, without disablers, to speed things up considerably. Funny enough, a large amount of rogues don't like that and prefer to use setups and such (Granted, this is probably a large reason why we are rated at the bottom! ).

Also, I think it should be mentioned, that we have no idea what else is in the pipeline. There has been a lot of chatter about changing or moving spells, as well as whatever HW secret carrot is being worked on, and also Archetypes. Who knows what other plans they have.

Another thing that I have been harping on in Discord, is Spell Sever. It feels like 2 steps forward and one step back with warriors/rogues, because of that. Either you have a butt ton of spell ranks, or you are screwed. It's way worse than Divergence IMO, and especially isn't fair to lower XP characters. Spell Sever is basically "Get spells, get KS, or get screwed." It's certainly going to be harder for them to achieve balance, if they are freaking nerfing most squares with Spell Sever. I had proposed that they change it so that you can wear your class' spells with enough training in AS/MIU/HP, etc., like the other spellburst areas. So like a Spell Sever/Spellburst hybrid.

At this point I don't know what they're planning to do, and I'm not so sure that they have any idea either.

This was sent to me by someone else and I don't know if there's additional context or what, especially since a couple messages seem to be out of order, but I'm too lazy to go find this conversation in Discord to pull it.

Estild — Today at 11:18 AM
No spells are being moved. Nor are we going to down tweak existing spells/characters to meet our desired goal. We will continue to evaluate new spells/abilities as avenue to encourage (not require) more diversified spell training.

Estild — Today at 11:25 AM
I have. Numerous times. You can search Discord to pull up the reasoning. Every profession should have a reason to diversify. We're not going to make changes to decrease that - wizards are the ideal goal, not the other way around.

__________________

@A⌋姆ìℜ ��
In other words you have zero interest in making things equal.

Estild — Today at 11:19 AM
Correct.

A⌋姆ìℜ ��
I think this is where you suggest we write to feedback if we have issues with your bad design.

Estild — Today at 11:21 AM
If you think it's worthwhile, certainly.

A⌋姆ìℜ ��
If you're not going to make changes to decrease that, why aren't you in favor of making changes that increase it for spiritualists?

Estild — Today at 11:27 AM
I am. Not all changes have to meet that goal though, nor are we going to down tweak to encourage it.

Estild — Today at 11:30 AM
Anyhow, enough time has been spent on this topic. There's definitely more important issues to address.

The main one that has me confused is:

Estild — Today at 11:18 AM
No spells are being moved. Nor are we going to down tweak existing spells/characters to meet our desired goal. We will continue to evaluate new spells/abilities as avenue to encourage (not require) more diversified spell training.



I mean...isn't down tweaking existing spells what they're literally doing right now?

[Mobius1]

At this point I don't know what they're planning to do, and I'm not so sure that they have any idea either.

This was sent to me by someone else and I don't know if there's additional context or what, especially since a couple messages seem to be out of order, but I'm too lazy to go find this conversation in Discord to pull it.




The main one that has me confused is:

Estild — Today at 11:18 AM
No spells are being moved. Nor are we going to down tweak existing spells/characters to meet our desired goal. We will continue to evaluate new spells/abilities as avenue to encourage (not require) more diversified spell training.



I mean...isn't down tweaking existing spells what they're literally doing right now?

Yeah, I don't get what he meant by that. But without seeing the whole conversation that could be largely out of context. Also the fact that Alastir was insulting him might not have helped matters much.

[nocturnix]

I would like to test out some of the bard changes but I've never hunted in these areas. Any suggestions?

[Methais]

I would like to test out some of the bard changes but I've never hunted in these areas. Any suggestions?

It's available on the test server still if I'm not mistaken.

Map: https://gswiki.play.net/images/f/f0/...by_Alosaka.jpg

Anything else noteworthy should be here: https://gswiki.play.net/Category:Hinterwilds_creatures