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Thread: Ascension questions and more!

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tgo01 View Post
    I've finally decided to get around to learning more about ascension and getting me some of those sweet, sweet, ascension points but I have many questions.

    First of all: armor use! Did they redo the number of ranks required to wear armor or what? I could have sworn 8 ranks was required to train away all penalties (except spell hindrances) for double leather and 4 was required for full leather, but now the Wiki says 6 and 2 respectively?

    What skills should, say, an empath have before focusing all experience on ascension?

    Here is what I'm thinking for a runestaff using empath wearing double leathers:

    Armor use: 56
    Shield use: 0 (they made it so using a shield with a runestaff doesn't work now right?)
    CM: max
    PT: max
    Dodge: max?
    All magic skills: max (probably not EMC though)
    Spells: max
    Relevant lores: max
    Perception: max
    Enough climbing and swimming

    This is like the basics for hunting and stuff, other skills like First Aid, Trading, or Picking Locks are optional.

    Does that look right? Did I forget something? Any feedback would be great.

    The Action Penaly (AP) is reduced to a maximum of 50% of the armor's initial AP.
    Every 50 ranks over the base AP, the AP is reduced by (Armor Group - 1).
    Soft Leather is Armor Group 2, double leather falls into soft leather. So every 50 ranks over 6 (56 ranks, 106 ranks, 156 ranks) the AP will be reduced by 1 point for Double Leather.

    Using Double Leather, the AP will be reduced once you hit 50 Armor Use ranks over the AP of the armor. Double Leather has an AP of 6; so at 6 ranks of Armor Use you get the best minimum AP applied to you when wearing Double Leather, which is -6. At 56 Armor use ranks the AP drops by 1 and you get -5 AP, 106 Armor Use ranks the AP drops by another 1 for double leather and you get -4 AP and this will happen once more at 156 AU ranks.

    Basically, spending 50 Armor Use ranks of TPs will net you a +1 to your overall SMRv2 defense and whatever other maneuvers utilize the armor AP in the equation.

    If you think the cost of 50 AU ranks for that +1 to your maneuver defense is worth it for double leather, by all means, keep it. Honestly, that bonus is so paltry that I'd personally save the over training in armor use until post cap and utilize your TPs towards more HP or extra spell ranks that'll be more beneficial to playing a pure.


    Quote Originally Posted by wetsand View Post
    Full leather is 2 and double leather is 6. Armor use requirements were changed across the board last year. I don't think its worth the TPs(maybe way post cap?) to reduce AP for doubles(Which are only 6 AP). Per the Wiki "For example, an action penalty of -20 results in -10% to evade DS"

    I would max dodge before even considering AP reduction for armors under 20 AP.

    What about lore(s)? You don't list any but I suspect you have the benefits maxed?

    If you are concerned about disarm, get 101 ranks of brawling + 1 rank of TWC to mitigate the risk. But to be honest in your situation I wouldn't bother.

    100% Ascension and start maxing out stat(s) and/or skill(s). If something changes or you feel like you missed something just swap back to normal experience.
    It wasn't Armor Use skill that was changed, it was the fact that they had two systems setup that were to play a part in armor.
    1 was the RT modifier
    2nd was the Maneuver Penalty (MP) modifier

    Take Double Leather for example:
    There used to be two columns on the Armor Use skill table on the gswiki, one for RT and one for the MP.
    I did a whole lot of SMRv2 testing 18-24 months back and started spouting off my results here and on the official. I was posting that the AP (action penalty) reduction was happening at the RT modifier and not the MP modifier.

    Apparently the MP wasn't active or being used like it was supposed to so they corrected the posted information saying that the RT/MP are one in the same in terms of Armor Use skill ranks.

    It wasn't the Armor Use skill that changed, they just removed the incorrect information and no longer have the MP category.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumpel View Post
    Honestly, that bonus is so paltry that I'd personally save the over training in armor use until post cap and utilize your TPs towards more HP or extra spell ranks that'll be more beneficial to playing a pure.
    My empath has 27 million experience. The only things I have left to max that I mentioned in the first post is armor use, dodging, arcane symbols, and magic item use.

    I know arcane symbols and magic item use are cheap enough that I might as well pick them up for some more runestaff defense, was wondering if armor use and dodging ranks are worth it or if I should just start putting all of my experience into ascension.

    Quote Originally Posted by drumpel View Post
    It wasn't the Armor Use skill that changed, they just removed the incorrect information and no longer have the MP category.
    Crazy that bug has been around for decades. I remember 8 armor use ranks being the magic number like 25 years ago.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tgo01 View Post
    Is maxing out dodge as an empath worth it before delving too far into ascension?
    Less important for an empath due them being able to 3x PF but dodge is a primary skill involved in SMRv2 defense. Is it worth it in the end? Sure but its a huge TP investment. Personally I would focus on Ascension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tgo01 View Post
    True. I was just thinking long term and was wondering which skills aren't even worth picking up. Like Elemental Mana Control probably increases runestaff DS but is it really worth all those training points?
    Another more is better situation but again I would lean towards Ascension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tgo01 View Post
    My empath has 27 million experience. The only things I have left to max that I mentioned in the first post is armor use, dodging, arcane symbols, and magic item use.

    I know arcane symbols and magic item use are cheap enough that I might as well pick them up for some more runestaff defense, was wondering if armor use and dodging ranks are worth it or if I should just start putting all of my experience into ascension.
    In this situation your return on investment will be greater finishing MIU and AS vs anything you could gain in Ascension.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tgo01 View Post
    My empath has 27 million experience. The only things I have left to max that I mentioned in the first post is armor use, dodging, arcane symbols, and magic item use.

    I know arcane symbols and magic item use are cheap enough that I might as well pick them up for some more runestaff defense, was wondering if armor use and dodging ranks are worth it or if I should just start putting all of my experience into ascension.



    Crazy that bug has been around for decades. I remember 8 armor use ranks being the magic number like 25 years ago.
    It wasn't a bug, just misinformation....I guess would be the best way to describe it. I think it wasn't really truly noticed until one of the GMs dug into it.

    As for further Armor Use skill....that's 15 PTPs per rank for your empath.
    2500 exp per TP = 37,500 exp to raise your AU 1 rank.
    Since you already have 56 ranks, means you'd need 45 ranks to hit 101.
    45 ranks x 37,500 exp = 1,687,500 exp.
    50,000 exp for every Ascension point = 1 ATP
    1,687,500 / 50,000 = 33 (and 3/4ths the way to 34) ATPs.

    Unless you plan on putting an extra 5 ranks into the Armor Use skill after you max it to 101 ranks, with ATPs, to give you the next Action Penalty threshold for double leather so you can earn +1 to your maneuver defense....I'd personally vote for putting all the EXP into ascension.

    As for dodge....that's an outright shitty amount of TPs for pures. You might gain a few extra points of SMRv2 defense if you max out your dodging. All I know is that SMRv2 skills that aid in your defense have a diminishing return when you get higher in level and with the more ranks you know. I don't think they changed this aspect of the equation when making adjustments a short while back....

    I noticed on my level 45 rogue at the time, when testing SMRv2 defense, after 100 combined ranks of dodge/CM/PF/perception, he was no longer earning +1 to his SMRv2 defense every 4-5 ranks of skills. Once he went over 100 combined ranks his SMRv2 defense required about 6 ranks in these skills to get that +1 to his SMRv2 defense.

    I also noticed that the lower leveled characters in the mid 20s I was testing, they were earning that +1 every 3-4 ranks of combined skills until they hit 100 ranks, then it was 4-5 ranks they'd get +1 to their SMRv2 defense. So there is a diminishing return the more you train in the defensive skills for SMRv2. My guess, since everything else is maxed

    (tl;dr about dodging: You probably won't see much of a benefit in terms of SMRv2/maneuver defense to be worth the cost of TPs)

  5. #15

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    Thank you everyone for all of the feedback for my empath. I appreciate it.

    Now for some rogue questions.

    Assuming I can live without outside spells (since I mostly hunt the rift these days I sort of have to anyways) is Kroderine Soul the way to go or should I get some spells in minor elemental for 425/430? Also did they change it so you can at least cast 403/404 on yourself? Because I sort of need those spells for picking.

    How does Kroderine Soul work? I tried looking for more information on the Wiki but I couldn't find it. Don't you like get more AS the more weapon skills you train in or something? Should I just max out all weapon skills?
    Last edited by Tgo01; 03-04-2021 at 05:33 AM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tgo01 View Post
    Thank you everyone for all of the feedback for my empath. I appreciate it.

    Now for some rogue questions.

    Assuming I can live without outside spells (since I mostly hunt the rift these days I sort of have to anyways) is Kroderine Soul the way to go or should I get some spells in minor elemental for 425/430? Also did they change it so you can at least cast 403/404 on yourself? Because I sort of need those spells for picking.

    How does Kroderine Soul work? I tried looking for more information on the Wiki but I couldn't find it. Don't you like get more AS the more weapon skills you train in or something? Should I just max out all weapon skills?
    I don't know anything about KS.

    As for earning extra AS you can boost your AS as a square simply by training in multiple weapon skills.

    For a detailed bit of information, look up "Martial Mastery" on the gswiki.

    Basically you can earn +1 to your AS for every 8 ranks known in a secondary weapon skill and 8 ranks known in a tertiary weapon skill.

    There is a spell known penalty tied to the this passive square ability, but I'm too lazy to look it up and post it here from the gswiki.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumpel View Post
    I don't know anything about KS.

    As for earning extra AS you can boost your AS as a square simply by training in multiple weapon skills.

    For a detailed bit of information, look up "Martial Mastery" on the gswiki.

    Basically you can earn +1 to your AS for every 8 ranks known in a secondary weapon skill and 8 ranks known in a tertiary weapon skill.

    There is a spell known penalty tied to the this passive square ability, but I'm too lazy to look it up and post it here from the gswiki.
    Oh the weapon AS boost is something separate, I thought it was part of Kroderine Soul. Is this a passive skill all characters have (then lose at 25 spell ranks) or is it something I have to train in?

    So basically if I wanted my rogue to use ranged weapons I just need to max out ranged then max out 2 other weapon skills?

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tgo01 View Post
    Oh the weapon AS boost is something separate, I thought it was part of Kroderine Soul. Is this a passive skill all characters have (then lose at 25 spell ranks) or is it something I have to train in?

    So basically if I wanted my rogue to use ranged weapons I just need to max out ranged then max out 2 other weapon skills?
    Martial Mastery is only a passive that squares get, you can start getting extra AS as soon as you have enough weapon ranks in a secondary and tertiary weapon skill.

    Your Primary weapon skill is the one that:
    a) you have the most ranks in
    or
    b) if you have equal ranks in multiple weapon skills, it doesn't matter. it'll consider 1 of the weapon skills as secondary.

    I've got a level 12 warrior I've been screwing around with
    He's 2x in Throwing (26 ranks)
    He's 2x in Brawling (26 ranks)
    He's 1x in THW (13 ranks)

    Since Throwing and Brawling are tied, one is considered secondary and THW is considered tertiary.

    He gets an extra 4 AS:
    trunc(26/8) + trunc(13/8)
    3 + 1 = 4

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumpel View Post
    Martial Mastery is only a passive that squares get, you can start getting extra AS as soon as you have enough weapon ranks in a secondary and tertiary weapon skill.

    Your Primary weapon skill is the one that:
    a) you have the most ranks in
    or
    b) if you have equal ranks in multiple weapon skills, it doesn't matter. it'll consider 1 of the weapon skills as secondary.

    I've got a level 12 warrior I've been screwing around with
    He's 2x in Throwing (26 ranks)
    He's 2x in Brawling (26 ranks)
    He's 1x in THW (13 ranks)

    Since Throwing and Brawling are tied, one is considered secondary and THW is considered tertiary.

    He gets an extra 4 AS:
    trunc(26/8) + trunc(13/8)
    3 + 1 = 4
    That's awesome. Thank you very much.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by wetsand View Post
    Full leather is 2 and double leather is 6. Armor use requirements were changed across the board last year. I don't think its worth the TPs(maybe way post cap?) to reduce AP for doubles(Which are only 6 AP). Per the Wiki "For example, an action penalty of -20 results in -10% to evade DS"

    I would max dodge before even considering AP reduction for armors under 20 AP.

    What about lore(s)? You don't list any but I suspect you have the benefits maxed?

    If you are concerned about disarm, get 101 ranks of brawling + 1 rank of TWC to mitigate the risk. But to be honest in your situation I wouldn't bother.

    100% Ascension and start maxing out stat(s) and/or skill(s). If something changes or you feel like you missed something just swap back to normal experience.
    Nothing was change for armor. It was always 2 and 6.

    People have been believing a lie for years.

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