Pure bard training

[wetsand]

Shield vs Runestaff for pure bard? Here is my current training.

(at level 88), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
  Skill Name                         | Actual  Actual
                                     |  Bonus   Ranks      Goals  In-Game Time to Goal
  Armor Use..........................|    150      50         50
  Combat Maneuvers...................|     82      18         18
  Multi Opponent Combat..............|    138      10         10  
  Physical Fitness...................|    188      88         88
  Dodging............................|    188      88         88
  Harness Power......................|    188      88         88
  Elemental Mana Control.............|    120      30         30
  Mental Mana Control................|    105      25         25
  Elemental Lore - Air...............|    120      30         30
  Mental Lore - Manipulation.........|    175      75         75
  Survival...........................|    105      25         25
  Perception.........................|    188      88         88
  Climbing...........................|    155      55         55
  Swimming...........................|    145      45         45
Spell Lists
  Minor Elemental....................|             30         30
Spell Lists
  Bard...............................|             88         88
Training Points: 1668 Phy 0 Mnt (850 Phy converted to Mnt)

[caelric]

Get some more CM for defensive purposes including CDEF. Then start upping your 400s for the CS bonus from 425.

[Maerit]

Super TP intensive to go runestaff pre-cap. I'd go shield/brawl, maybe drop your dodge down a little to get 2x shield and 2x brawl. If you're not getting forced to higher stances, 2x brawl was more DS than 2x shield. In higher stances 2x shield was higher than 2x brawl. At cap my best DS config before hitting 10mil XP was 2x brawl, 2x shield, 50 dodge, 100 bard & 30 MnE.

Sonic Runestaff is nice once you are post-cap like 15-18mil XP, but it's a lot of TPs. My bard also still has 0 CM because CM training was not greater than dodge training and more expensive than perception. Since bards do have DS issues it was better to get the dodge ranks and focus on DS while gaining SMR defense at the same time. CM will happen post-cap IMO. My 1st priority will probably be 2x spells though I might ditch that and pick up 1x CMAN before finishing spells... we'll have to see what the potential bard review looks like.

[wetsand]

Can I squeak by DS wise with my current magic ranks per level of ~4.15?

I was thinking; drop brawling plus some other minor skills, and use a runestaff with the above build and reevaluate after the review. That way I use my banked fixskill before the review but leave the option open to go back to a physical build if needed.

Gear: 5x/4x T4 nervestaff and +40 aug chain

[Maerit]

I don't think you will enjoy it. I tried it out without post-cap training and my DS was about 480 at cap in guarded vs what it is now (~750) with the same gear (albeit sonic runestaff vs greatshield + ebladed gloves). You need to be around 7 magic ranks per level for runestaff DS to make much sense.

Rangers have incredibly good DS compared to Bards.

The best time to go runestaff is when you can have both 75 Manip (+26 telepathy) and +75 air lore + 1x MIU/AS/MMC/ 2x HP and 130+ ranks in spells. This makes your sonic runestaff awesome because of the flare strength while giving you sufficient DS, and if you can maintain 1035 even better (as it will help DS). I don't think you can get the TPs for this kind of setup until pretty far post-cap.

[gilchristr]

I just did a pure bard... I did more MnE ranks than bard ranks (keeping MnE at level).

I did it because the CS cost was very low (each MnE rank is worth like .83 CS vs 1 CS rank for a bard rank), but it provides more TD not to mention making ewave better. Both of those are defensive value - ward spells in the case of TD or putting critters in more RT with better ewave.

Either way, I think you need more spells for your build. You could do 88 MnE and 50 bard for example. That would be 1.5x spell training which I think you should be aiming for if you want to be a pure bard.

EDIT - I do not understand why 75 manipulation lore is often recommended for a pure bard. I know it makes 1030 "more powerful" - but its akin to adding damage weighting to a claid. With 1030 I am crit killing, not bleeding out critters, so added damage seems worthless. I could be missing something here, but most guides I have read have been at the level of "get 75 ranks for better 1030." I would look at stopping manipulation lore at 15 ranks and putting the many TPs you will save into something better like more spell ranks (for example). More CS, for example, especially up to 2x per level in spells, would increase the chance of that crit kill you are going for with 1030.

EDIT2 - this is from the gswiki on ewave. "The primary success factor of this spell is a level comparison of the caster versus its targets. Minor Elemental ranks are also factored in." And not that Ewave success is not just binary - you can put creatures in longer RT with greater success (with low success they could get knocked down but cast at you from the ground right away). The point about the casting failure with ewave an augmented chain cuts both ways (I would wear double leather to avoid spell failure with a critical spell, such as ewave)

[Maerit]

I just did a pure bard... I did more MnE ranks than bard ranks (keeping MnE at level).

I did it because the CS cost was very low (each MnE rank is worth like .83 CS vs 1 CS rank for a bard rank), but it provides more TD not to mention making ewave better. Both of those are defensive value - ward spells in the case of TD or putting critters in more RT with better ewave.

Either way, I think you need more spells for your build. You could do 88 MnE and 50 bard for example. That would be 1.5x spell training which I think you should be aiming for if you want to be a pure bard.

2 quick things.

1. I am like 90% sure spell ranks don't have anything to do with ewave - it's success is level based which is why a capped warrior with 10 ranks in MnE can still knock like-level tragets over with ewave.
2. Casting ewave while wearing aug chain is a gamble.

I'd recommend sticking to Bard ranks to 100 then switching to boosting MnE for the following reasons:
- 1010 bonus DS
- 1019 bonus dodge ranks
- 1013 mana draining amount is tied to Bard spell ranks (so many people ignore this spell, and it's nearly as good as 516 if you know what to target and have .5x MMC).
- I think at 50 ranks you get max (7x) Sonic Equipment, so that might be safe.
- 1005 is tied to Bard spell ranks.
- 1006 activation is tied to Bard spell ranks.
- I'm not positive on this, but 1040 success may be influenced by Bard spell ranks.
- 1004 will blow up more gems and purify for less overall.

Also, you won't be as good at RECALL for those rare times you actually spend your weekly resources.

Overall, you get a lot more bang for your TPs investing in Bard to 1x over MnE. I've heard bards sticking to 30 ranks in MnE all the way up to 25mil XP.

[gilchristr]

To get more spells, you could drop dodging completly. The opportunity cost of those 88 dodging ranks is 24 spell ranks. Thats more of all the things Maerit pointed out if its pumped into bard spells (or its worth 12 TD if its pumped into MnE ranks), not to mention another 20-24 CS for your 1030.

[wetsand]

Thank you for the suggestions and input. I've decided to leave most of the skills alone and just dump a few minor things. Going forward I will concentrate on filling in some more magic skills and see how the review goes. Self spelled DS is okay, even utilizing a runestaff.

(at level 88), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
  Skill Name                         | Current Current
                                     |   Bonus   Ranks
  Armor Use..........................|     150      50
  Combat Maneuvers...................|      82      18
  Brawling...........................|     269     169
  Multi Opponent Combat..............|     136      10
  Physical Fitness...................|     188      88
  Dodging............................|     188      88
  Harness Power......................|     188      88
  Elemental Mana Control.............|     117      25
  Mental Mana Control................|     105      25
  Elemental Lore - Air...............|     120      30
  Mental Lore - Manipulation.........|     175      75
  Survival...........................|     105      25
  Perception.........................|     188      88
  Climbing...........................|     155      55
  Swimming...........................|     145      45

Spell Lists
  Minor Elemental....................|              30

Spell Lists
  Bard...............................|              88

Training Points: 253 Phy 0 Mnt (1392 Phy converted to Mnt)