Official: Crusade References

[time4fun]

Here's the thing.

You keep talking about a conversation that was supposedly going to happen, as if we were going to have deciding input on what changes were implemented. There was going to be no "discussion" about this. We were told, essentially, "Here is what we are going to change" by Wyrom.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemSto...et_newest=true

A few people stood up and said "Now waitwaitwait just a minute..." and tried to have a conversation about it. Tried to give our input on it. Well, that wasn't much of a conversation either, as very quickly those who dared express dissent were labeled, vilified, and their opinions dismissed.

That first phase was just a conversation among the GMs- so they could look at this thing they've built and figure out if it's presenting racism in a way that they don't feel is appropriate. Being offended at the mere notion of them looking into the issue is the problem here. I think if players had waited for specifics and had argued for or against specific changes, it would have been a very different conversation.

Look- we're in the middle of this huge moment where people are starting to take stock of what we say, what we do, how we act, etc. and how that does or doesn't further racial injustice. And we all know that media representations- no matter how big or small- DO matter when it comes to the struggle for equality. We also know that silence is part of how these systems perpetuate themselves.

So- what are we supposed to call the act of forcefully stopping some game developers from even looking into potential normalization of racism in their game? Remove all of us and Gemstone from this and just look at it objectively. Does this further the goals of racial justice, or does it further the goals of racial injustice?

Regardless of the reasons- refusing to allow people to even ask the questions...isn't that itself extremely damaging?

[Taernath]

2) People did NOT wait to hear specifics to push back- which means it was the very concept of the conversation itself that bothered them, not specifics.

There wasn't much of a conversation to be had. Wyrom said "changes will be made and are being made, some will happen more quickly than others". The decision-making process was already concluded. Furthermore, there were no specifics in the announcement, it took several people speculating before the GMs started talking about Krolvin and Aelotoi documents. Then the crusader thing happened and got reversed, which makes me think there really isn't much of a plan at all.

[Tgo01]

Nor does anyone need yet another white person who is denying the existence of racism and who calls people who want to have a conversation about racism, racist.

Imagine being this racist and thinking everyone else is racist.

Ain't nobody got shit on time4fun's projection game.

[Tgo01]

That first phase was just a conversation among the GMs- so they could look at this thing they've built and figure out if it's presenting racism in a way that they don't feel is appropriate. Being offended at the mere notion of them looking into the issue is the problem here.

Gosh your gaslighting is boring.

No one was "offended" at the "notion" of GMs looking into anything.

In case you forgot here was Wyrom's original announcement that kicked off this shitstorm:

I apologize that this message is overdue. We have been discussing this internally, but we realized that we can’t wait to speak on this until all of our plans have been finalized.

Elanthia is supposed to be a fantasy-filled, fun world where adventurers of all stripes bravely venture forth, slaying monsters, overcoming obstacles, forming communities, and having measurable impact on the ever-changing landscape around them. It is a rich and complex world, in which contrast and conflict have always existed, including racial tension and oppression among the various playable races.

Yet as much as GemStone IV is a fantasy game, it is impossible to divorce it fully from the real-life culture in which it was created and of which it is a product. We recognize that over the years, many developments and in-game systems have become a mirror and reflection of various shades of racism. These reflections have included personal racism, systemic racism, and implicit bias present in the real world, particularly against people of color, and even toward those of mixed racial and ethnic backgrounds. For many, these systems have come to interfere with the purpose of our game and the recognition of the personhood of all of our players. It is our responsibility to examine our culpability in normalizing racism as a "fun" or "harmless" diversion and how that perpetuates systemic racism in the real world. The idea that "it’s just a game" is no longer—and actually, was never—enough.

Voices have been raised among both our player base and staff members, bringing to focus these challenging issues that have been present in our beloved game for far too long. To rectify this, we plan to review and re-write documents, update mechanics, messaging, and storylines to make this a better experience for everyone. Changes will be made and are being made now. Some will happen more quickly than others. Like the challenges facing the real world, some issues we’ve identified are embedded deep within systems that have existed for decades and will take significant work to change. Some issues are so complicated that we need time to make sure we handle them competently and with the care they deserve. But the staff is wholeheartedly throwing themselves into this work. We assume we will make mistakes, but we also vow to continue working through the mistakes and to continue to embrace and learn from them as a community. We hope you can help us along in this journey through your valued feedback and passionate voices, which we hope to encourage and support as we move forward into a more collaborate and united future, both within and outside of Elanthia.

I can't speak for anyone but myself but what concerned me the most was this part:

To rectify this, we plan to review and re-write documents, update mechanics, messaging, and storylines to make this a better experience for everyone.

To me this suggested the GMs were going to whitewash the history and lore of GS to pretend the bad things never happened. After concerns were brought up and this discussion moved to Discord Kveta and Auchand even suggested they wanted to rewrite the lore and history of Dark Elves and Half-Krolvin, along with a shitload of other things they wanted to change that I didn't like, for example doing away with racial bonuses altogether and allowing everyone the ability to change their race.

You keep saying people were trying to shutdown conversations but you are 100% wrong. People heard what the GMs were saying and suggesting and they didn't like it, then the next day the benign word "Crusade" was deemed too offensive and almost no one was vocally on the side of the GMs anymore on the officials because the GMs showed that they wanted to take a very serious matter and use it as an excuse to change minor nitpicky things just to make themselves feel better.

[Leafiara]

I'm not going to re-read the whole 315-post thing, but just for the sake of it, I went back and reviewed up to post #101 in the Racial Tension thread (was going to stop at post 50, but something like 30 posts were just thank yous) and didn't see anyone trying to shut down anything or stop the discussion from having.

Who was trying to shut down the conversation? Or what does shutting down a conversation even mean? Give me one example from the officials of what that looks like and I'm willing to go from there.

[HJFudge]

I'm not going to re-read the whole 315-post thing, but just for the sake of it, I went back and reviewed up to post #101 in the Racial Tension thread (was going to stop at post 50, but something like 30 posts were just thank yous) and didn't see anyone trying to shut down anything or stop the discussion from having.

Who was trying to shut down the conversation? Or what does shutting down a conversation even mean? Give me one example from the officials of what that looks like and I'm willing to go from there.

Well, it is hard to give examples of pulled posts since...well...they got pulled. Some with cause. But all? Impossible for me to say since they are gone now.

But calling everyone who disagrees with you racists, or heavily implying such, also tends to shut down discussion.

Even further, though, this was not presented as a discussion. They didn't say they were going to talk to the player base and get together and decide how best to make the game a more inclusive place. Wyrom's post was mentioned above, which cannot be read as a call for discussion but instead is quite clearly a declaration of intent. Low on details, for sure, but the intent is clear. Then further posts told us why they felt changes needed to be made. Again though, there was no call for a discussion. It was 'We've decided'. Here is what we are doing, here is why, with a heavy dose of 'and if you dislike it you are racist' added directly by Naos and heavily implied by others in staff.

Which is just one more thing that is frustrating about all of this. Had they asked for a discussion, I think it would have been a good and healthy thing for the community. But they did not. They picked and chose what voices to hear in an internal, private discussion they never hinted to the players at large was occuring and then said what they were doing. I wish they had asked. Or had the courtesy to ask the minority player base, at the very least, what they wanted. Instead, they didn't give the minority player base a choice and told them what they wanted and what they were going to do to protect them from the big scary topics that gemstone can sometimes deal with.

Edit #2: And its pretty clear they didn't ask the minority player base at large, since just a very quick skim of the topic of non-pulled posts on the officials show at least 5 self identifying minorities who were pretty vocally opposed to all of this. Which, you know, for gemstone is probably a lot? But I don't have the numbers. The thing is, I dont think THEY have the numbers either. I could be wrong however about that. Suffice it to say, Im 99% certain they didn't even ask, just assumed, and tried to play Savior.

[Leafiara]

Well, it is hard to give examples of pulled posts since...well...they got pulled. Some with cause. But all? Impossible for me to say since they are gone now.

Fair point, I didn't think of that.

But calling everyone who disagrees with you racists, or heavily implying such, also tends to shut down discussion.

I'd agree, which is why I'm interested in Vishra's response. I can absolutely think of examples of things that could be interpreted as shutting down discussion, but anything I can come up with would apply to both sides.

Even further, though, this was not presented as a discussion. They didn't say they were going to talk to the player base and get together and decide how best to make the game a more inclusive place. Wyrom's post was mentioned above, which cannot be read as a call for discussion but instead is quite clearly a declaration of intent. [...] Which is just one more thing that is frustrating about all of this. Had they asked for a discussion, I think it would have been a good and healthy thing for the community. But they did not. They picked and chose what voices to hear in an internal, private discussion they never hinted to the players at large was occuring and then said what they were doing. I wish they had asked.

I'm not sure I can agree they didn't ask for a discussion. Wyrom's post did end with...

"We assume we will make mistakes, but we also vow to continue working through the mistakes and to continue to embrace and learn from them as a community. We hope you can help us along in this journey through your valued feedback and passionate voices, which we hope to encourage and support as we move forward into a more collaborate and united future, both within and outside of Elanthia."

This might not have been a clear enough invitation for dissenting voices, and what you're describing what would have been better, but I don't think it's necessarily fair to say they outright didn't ask.

That said, things went really south with the Crusade changes in part because those happened after no community discussion on the matter at all, and nothing like them appearing in Wyrom's bullet point list of plans.

[HJFudge]

Well they asked for feedback. Which is close to but actually distinct from asking for a discussion. The main difference being you ask for feedback about something you've already done whereas a discussion is what you ask when you are trying to decide what to do.

It's close though, that's a fair point.

But it also became pretty clear after that post when quite a few of us expressed concern that they were going to go ahead with everything regardless.

Hey maybe they should have asked you to make one of your polls. Then they could've had some actual data to work with and it probably would have saved them a lot of pain

[Fortybox]

Well they asked for feedback. Which is close to but actually distinct from asking for a discussion. The main difference being you ask for feedback about something you've already done whereas a discussion is what you ask when you are trying to decide what to do.

It's close though, that's a fair point.

But it also became pretty clear after that post when quite a few of us expressed concern that they were going to go ahead with everything regardless.

Hey maybe they should have asked you to make one of your polls. Then they could've had some actual data to work with and it probably would have saved them a lot of pain

I suggested to Auchand that they survey their player base to, you know, actually find out what the community wants but all I got back was the sound of crickets.

[Neveragain]

Or what does shutting down a conversation even mean?

Debate team A: We want to have a conversation about racism.

Debate team B: We don't believe changing lore, mechanics, etc. in a fantasy game has any meaningful impact on racism in the real world.

Debate team A: You're racist!

That is shutting down a conversation. Team A is incapable of responding with a logical argument, thus, they resort to poisoning the well. This forces Team B to spend the remainder of the disingenuous notion of a conversation trying to prove that they are not racists.

The fact is, team A has already lost the debate. Team A has literally ignored the input of the people they say they are trying to help. An excellent example of this is Joe Biden telling a black person "If you are unable to decide who to vote for between Donald Trump and myself, you are not black"