Official: Crusade References

[Parkbandit]

Since when did correcting for racism and racial bias become a new "leftist movement"?

Funny- I thought we were all in agreement that racism is bad and that doing things to minimize it is good.

It's actually really scary how twisted you've allowed this whole thing to become.

This isn't white people vs black people. It's not (or shouldn't be) liberal people vs conservative people. It's people vs racism.

And we're all better off when we're willing to have honest conversations about it and start trying to root it out where we can. We're all worse off when we decide to go into hyper defensive mode and treat attacks on racism as attacks on ourselves.

This isn't about you. It's not about me. It's about a cultural infestation that we've been dealing with since the beginning of this country, and if it were going to go away by just sitting around playing lip service to how bad racism is...it'd be long gone by now.

[time4fun]

Eh, I'm what 96% of you would call a "Leftist" and I don't like it either. It's not a modern American bullshit everything has to be "Left vs Right" thing, It's a Censorship thing. People have been burning books/altering literature/altering language to fit their own narratives for centuries. Millennia.

Hell, Tgo and I agree about this. If that doesn't prove to you it is apolitical nothing will.

But it's not censorship. Censorship is about a third party stifling someone's speech (the government specifically, but obviously we're talking about it in a more general sense). This is about the creators of the art deciding that they don't want to be a part of the problem- they want to be a part of the solution. No one pressured them into this.

And that's the key piece that always seems to be missing from these conversations. There are A LOT of us who want to make these changes to try to figure out how we can be better versions of ourselves.

And no one is getting hurt- rather the opposite. So we have to stop pretending like this is some massive assault on freedom. That's part of how racism/sexism/homophobia/xenophobia/etc hook themselves into our minds. If you look at things through those lenses, it flips the narrative and makes equality feel like an attack. And I know you know this and that I'm largely preaching to the choir here.

But food for thought. This isn't always something forced on creators. And it certainly wasn't in this case, so far as I can tell.

And people like Tgo aren't indignant on behalf of the creators. This isn't about Creators being "forced" to do something. They're mad because they're being forced to live without the racist narratives- that someone took the narratives from their lives. And somehow they've decided that's something worth fighting against.

So you and Tgo really don't actually agree here. Not really.

[time4fun]

Antifa is about as anti fascist as the DPRK is democratic and for the people.

Okay I'll bite.

What's that based on? What is it about Antifa- *specifically* that makes them something other than anti-fascist protesters?

[caelric]

Okay I'll bite.

What's that based on? What is it about Antifa- *specifically* that makes them something other than anti-fascist protesters?

Because they try and restrict the actions and speech of others. Now go fuck yourself, you are probably the worst poster on this entire forum.

[Parkbandit]

Because they try and restrict the actions and speech of others. Now go fuck yourself, you are probably the worst poster on this entire forum.

You better respect our Retard Champion.

She's the GOAT.

[Neveragain]

But it's not censorship. Censorship is about a third party stifling someone's speech (the government specifically, but obviously we're talking about it in a more general sense). This is about the creators of the art deciding that they don't want to be a part of the problem- they want to be a part of the solution. No one pressured them into this.

And that's the key piece that always seems to be missing from these conversations. There are A LOT of us who want to make these changes to try to figure out how we can be better versions of ourselves.

And no one is getting hurt- rather the opposite. So we have to stop pretending like this is some massive assault on freedom. That's part of how racism/sexism/homophobia/xenophobia/etc hook themselves into our minds. If you look at things through those lenses, it flips the narrative and makes equality feel like an attack. And I know you know this and that I'm largely preaching to the choir here.

But food for thought. This isn't always something forced on creators. And it certainly wasn't in this case, so far as I can tell.

And people like Tgo aren't indignant on behalf of the creators. This isn't about Creators being "forced" to do something. They're mad because they're being forced to live without the racist narratives- that someone took the narratives from their lives. And somehow they've decided that's something worth fighting against.

So you and Tgo really don't actually agree here. Not really.

Oddly enough, you're the one that keeps pushing this narrative of the plague of racism. Like nobody else gives a fuck, because they don't give a fuck about peoples race.

For like over 20 years, long before you were even around, one of my oldest online gaming friends is a black woman. She RP'd my mother-in-law in GS for years, we played and raided in WoW together. These problems really didn't even exist in GS until your ilk came around. What would be best is if you quit dragging your activism into an adventure game and framing everyone that does not agree with you as a racist.

Like literally, you and a small handful of people are the only ones that keep pumping this poison into the community. You even have gay people telling you to shut the fuck up, again, people I have known for decades and it's never been an issue.

Honestly, just shut the fuck up, you really don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[Tgo01]

But it's not censorship. Censorship is about a third party stifling someone's speech (the government specifically, but obviously we're talking about it in a more general sense). This is about the creators of the art deciding that they don't want to be a part of the problem- they want to be a part of the solution.

No it's not. It's almost a certainty that whoever created the critter "a fallen crusader" and the title "Crusader" for a Paladin is long gone from GS and even if they were still around this sounds like a change Oscuro spearheaded all on his own.

And people like Tgo aren't indignant on behalf of the creators. ... They're mad because they're being forced to live without the racist narratives- that someone took the narratives from their lives.

Gee can't possibly imagine why people resort to calling idiots such as time4fun idiots.

Like seriously, how do you expect anyone to have a rational conversation with someone who flat out says shit like this. It's impossible. The best thing to do is to call time4fun insane and laugh at how crazy she is.

It's also important to keep in mind that time4fun is the EXACT type of person the GMs are currently try to appease. Just look at this shit. Do you really think they were just going to stop at "Crusaders"? It will never stop if people like time4fun get their way because they literally see racism everywhere and they think if you are against them, for WHATEVER REASON, then you too are racist and are "mad" because you won't be able to play a game filled with racism anymore.

[FlayedAngel]

Eh, I'm what 96% of you would call a "Leftist" and I don't like it either. It's not a modern American bullshit everything has to be "Left vs Right" thing, It's a Censorship thing. People have been burning books/altering literature/altering language to fit their own narratives for centuries. Millennia.

Hell, Tgo and I agree about this. If that doesn't prove to you it is apolitical nothing will.

I'm very much anti-censorship, and I don't believe the initial intent/protestation to be a "Left" versus "Right" thing either; it just became co-opted when everyone wanted to make it political. But let's be honest; life isn't apolitical, and it was bound to happen eventually.

They have every right to update their own content to reflect more contemporary attitudes. If you don't agree, you have a right to state an opinion. Where I think this issue has continued to get derailed is where people keep insisting on the perceived agendas of others. If they wanted to censor individuals, that would be a different conversation, but that wasn't the point -- and most of the changes they were looking at were positive mechanical changes.

But people continue to vehemently argue with ridiculous hyperbole and conjecture with no actual basis on anything, only what might or might not happen down the road.

At some point, should we not ask why she went to work for such a racist company in the first place?
She could be honest and just say that white male conservatives are not welcome in Gemstone. She could at least be honest with her racism and bigotry.

She also made a comment along the lines of "We need to make room for more diverse voices" or some such shit, which just means "We need fewer white voices."

Just because you're a leftist and disagree with this movement doesn't mean it's not a leftist movement. People attribute racism with the right but all rightists? are not racist.
The whole cancel culture is an SJW movement, which is directly tied to the extreme left. It humors me that they want to fight fascism with fascism.

While the changes thus far have been minor, a lot of people see them as a precursor to a extreme leftist ideological movement towards censorship and oppression. Just because the extreme left can't cope with their feelings doesn't mean the world needs to bend-over backwards for them.

Because they try and restrict the actions and speech of others. Now go fuck yourself, you are probably the worst poster on this entire forum.

That's a whole lot of putting words in people's mouths for people who don't want words put in their mouths.

If people have a right to label them "SJWs" and "virtue signalers" and "extreme leftists" and shit like that, then those same people have zero right to complain when they're labelled "racist" or whatever; either we agree that neither of those accusations are helping further the discussion or we don't, but that shouldn't be unilateral in either direction. Especially if you turn around and come back with, "You're the real racist!"

If people want a fair discussion that's fine, but don't be disingenuous by wading into conversations where you know your opposition has one-hand tied behind their back... and then use that fact against them. People need to stop whining because they're "paying customers" (if they even still are) and the GMs aren't allowed to treat them the way they're treated, that's the epitome of entitlement. If some people were implied to be a racist, that sucks for them -- but don't act like people didn't intend the same derogatory belittlement with their own words.

Either the players and GMs are both people or they aren't, but we need to stop with this division bullshit. It's not a monolithic corporation like Amazon, it's basically a Mom-and-Pop operation run by a handful of people who legitimately care enough about the game to do so.

[FlayedAngel]

And to be clear: I'm not calling anyone racist*. Everyone has a right to their opinion, whether I agree with them or not.

There's nothing wrong with being passionate about civil rights or creative expression, but anyone can go to far.


*Except Dreaven. Dreaven is the one and only racist here, we all know that. Hearts, bud.

[time4fun]

Because they try and restrict the actions and speech of others. Now go fuck yourself, you are probably the worst poster on this entire forum.

Sorry- how do they try to restrict the actions and speech of others?

Also, you really don't need to get so upset. If these conversations make you that emotional, maybe you should just step away.