Shocking SMR2 Findings.

[Mobius1]

I had looked over Drumpel's research on the subject, and it was great work, but I really wanted to test how it applies to me, a max SMR2 defense trained capped rogue.

The results I found are so shocking to me, I am actually furious.

First of all, I did my tests with a level 100 wizard using 917 at various wizard circle ranks, and as a cleric casting 309. My results between the two were exact.

My goal, was to find out the impact of skills and stats, for someone that is already highly trained in the SMR2 skills at cap (In my case, max trained in all of them.). This is as a human with perfect stats (100 Agi/Dex/Int), wearing no armor, in defensive stance.

So for my first test, I dropped my dodge from 303 ranks to 203 ranks, and saw a loss of.....4 SMR2 defense. At 202 wizard ranks, the chance of hitting me with 917 was 13% at full skills, and 17% at 203 dodge. That's some SERIOUS diminishing returns. At 150 wizard ranks, the wizard had to get an open roll to hit me, at 203 dodge.

Then I tested stats. I put on a +40 Agi +5 Dex enhancive set, and it increased my SMR2 defense by only +2. A +50 PF, +40 Agi, +40 Dex set increased my defense by only +4.

The most shocking thing of all, though, was when I put armor on. At 200 armor use and rank 5 armored evasion, I then put on a set of MBP (So -7 AP). My SMR2 defense dropped by.....0. I then tried it without armored evasion (-12 AP), and my SMR2 defense dropped by...0! So then finally, I dropped my armor use skill from 200 to 80 ranks, giving me -20 AP in my MBP, and my SMR2 defense dropped by an incredibly massive.....ZERO!!!!

Finally, I cast blurs, and 215, and I was able to get my SMR2 defense to drop by 1 by adding -20 Action Penalty.

So what does my testing find? That once you hit these massive diminishing returns, it's not much different than how redux works (a soft cap). It also means that any stat bonus or negative is mostly pointless as long as you are at a certain level past the soft cap, so you are probably better off tanking INT and not INF, since even -25 INT probably won't even decrease your SMR2 defense by even 1.

It also means that, except for the bonus to evade DS (which is super minimal as it is), the bonus to stand RT (lol), and the unknown bonus to SMR (Which Konacon is going to be rolling out a ton of SMR2 conversions for), Action Penalty is essentially a joke. Armor overtraining is a joke, and Armored Evasion is the biggest joke of all.

Konacon said in the Mechanics discord that he will voice my concerns with the powers that be, but he also defended the way it works, saying that even 1% is a significant difference. I obviously disagree, and feel that you get too much SMR2 defense for too little, and not enough for really boosting it high. I also am extremely pissed off to find out how utterly useless AP is. I like to think it at least helps a lot against SMR, as long as that lasts, but who knows...

~Midgar

[Ralk]

Very interesting results.

Did you end up testing the effects of stance at all?

[drumpel]

I've done some more testing and retesting and I'm starting to feel that SMRv2 defense is highly impacted by your overall level. The higher the level you are, the lower the returns you see for your SMRv2 defense.

I think this is the case because every level you gain appears to give you a +3 to your SMRv2 defense (as far as I can tell). As you level, the returns diminish a lot on the number of skills you train in. I don't know if I'm explaining this well, but in my head I understand what I mean.....

I don't know if my latest data is stored at work on my computer there or here at home, I'll have to dig around or maybe just do some quick retesting of a couple of things to help better explain what I'm talking about.....I couldn't find what I was looking for here at home, so it must be at work. So, I did a quick test with two different level characters, granted they're not of the same race nor having identical stats, but this is what I was finding when I was testing out various leveld characters vs my near capped mage casting 917 on them.

I went up in ranks that impact SMRv2 defense (perception, CM, PF or dodge - they're all weighted equally so it doesn't matter what skills I trained in) by 10 for each cast.
Remember, the lower your SMRv2 is, the harder you are to hit

Casting mage = 96

Rogue, dwarf, level 49.
No skills, no armor, defensive stance
SMRv2 defense = 184
10 ranks, SMRv2 = 179
20 ranks, SMRv2 = 175
30 ranks, SMRv2 = 171
40 ranks, SMRv2 = 167
50 ranks, SMRv2 = 164
60 ranks, SMRv2 = 161
70 ranks, SMRv2 = 158
80 ranks, SMRv2 = 155
90 ranks, SMRv2 = 153
100 ranks, SMRv2 = 150
110 ranks, SMRv2 = 148
120 ranks, SMRv2 = 146
130 ranks, SMRv2 = 143
140 ranks, SMRv2 = 141
150 ranks, SMRv2 = 139


Wizard, dark elf, level 72
No skills, no armor, defensive stance
SMRv2 defense = 101
10 ranks, SMRv2 = 99
20 ranks, SMRv2 = 97
30 ranks, SMRv2 = 95
40 ranks, SMRv2 = 93
50 ranks, SMRv2 = 90
60 ranks, SMRv2 = 88
70 ranks, SMRv2 = 86
80 ranks, SMRv2 = 84
90 ranks, SMRv2 = 82
100 ranks, SMRv2 = 80
110 ranks, SMRv2 = 79
120 ranks, SMRv2 = 77
130 ranks, SMRv2 = 76
140 ranks, SMRv2 = 74
150 ranks, SMRv2 = 73

As you can see, the higher level character was getting less of a return on his SMRv2 defense with the same number of ranks trained in as the lower level rogue.
Sure, AGI/DEX/INT may play a slight variation here (along with race), but what it looks like is the higher the level you get the less of a return you gain for SMRv2 defense.

This means that either the equation involved with SMRv2 defense is really complicated or simplistically stupid by simply comparing the caster's level and skill (in this case, it would be known Wizard Spell ranks known compared to the caster's level) and the target's level and AGI/DEX/INT....then everything simply follows a sliding scale.

[Sinistra]

I've done some more testing and retesting and I'm starting to feel that SMRv2 defense is highly impacted by your overall level. The higher the level you are, the lower the returns you see for your SMRv2 defense.

I think this is the case because every level you gain appears to give you a +3 to your SMRv2 defense (as far as I can tell). As you level, the returns diminish a lot on the number of skills you train in. I don't know if I'm explaining this well, but in my head I understand what I mean.....

I don't know if my latest data is stored at work on my computer there or here at home, I'll have to dig around or maybe just do some quick retesting of a couple of things to help better explain what I'm talking about.....I couldn't find what I was looking for here at home, so it must be at work. So, I did a quick test with two different level characters, granted they're not of the same race nor having identical stats, but this is what I was finding when I was testing out various leveld characters vs my near capped mage casting 917 on them.

I went up in ranks that impact SMRv2 defense (perception, CM, PF or dodge - they're all weighted equally so it doesn't matter what skills I trained in) by 10 for each cast.
Remember, the lower your SMRv2 is, the harder you are to hit

Casting mage = 96

Rogue, dwarf, level 49.
No skills, no armor, defensive stance
SMRv2 defense = 184
10 ranks, SMRv2 = 179
20 ranks, SMRv2 = 175
30 ranks, SMRv2 = 171
40 ranks, SMRv2 = 167
50 ranks, SMRv2 = 164
60 ranks, SMRv2 = 161
70 ranks, SMRv2 = 158
80 ranks, SMRv2 = 155
90 ranks, SMRv2 = 153
100 ranks, SMRv2 = 150
110 ranks, SMRv2 = 148
120 ranks, SMRv2 = 146
130 ranks, SMRv2 = 143
140 ranks, SMRv2 = 141
150 ranks, SMRv2 = 139


Wizard, dark elf, level 72
No skills, no armor, defensive stance
SMRv2 defense = 101
10 ranks, SMRv2 = 99
20 ranks, SMRv2 = 97
30 ranks, SMRv2 = 95
40 ranks, SMRv2 = 93
50 ranks, SMRv2 = 90
60 ranks, SMRv2 = 88
70 ranks, SMRv2 = 86
80 ranks, SMRv2 = 84
90 ranks, SMRv2 = 82
100 ranks, SMRv2 = 80
110 ranks, SMRv2 = 79
120 ranks, SMRv2 = 77
130 ranks, SMRv2 = 76
140 ranks, SMRv2 = 74
150 ranks, SMRv2 = 73

As you can see, the higher level character was getting less of a return on his SMRv2 defense with the same number of ranks trained in as the lower level rogue.
Sure, AGI/DEX/INT may play a slight variation here (along with race), but what it looks like is the higher the level you get the less of a return you gain for SMRv2 defense.

This means that either the equation involved with SMRv2 defense is really complicated or simplistically stupid by simply comparing the caster's level and skill (in this case, it would be known Wizard Spell ranks known compared to the caster's level) and the target's level and AGI/DEX/INT....then everything simply follows a sliding scale.

Some excellent sleuthing! Good work!

I wonder how much of a diff racial bonuses or penalties make?

[Winter]

I wonder how much of a diff racial bonuses or penalties make?

As far as I can tell the difference between good and excellent manoeuvre bonus is roughly 5 points worth of smrv2 defence, it doesn't really balance out the enormous penalties small races get to encumbrance.

[Mobius1]

Very interesting results.

Did you end up testing the effects of stance at all?

I did not test it beyond the point of confirming that it does make a difference (defensive stance being best.).

As for the thing about levels, I plan to do more testing, but I think it ultimately comes down to some sort of soft cap. My guess is that the diminishing returns come into play not based on any specific source of SMR2 defense, but the sum of them all.

I'm mostly inventing here, but for example, say your SMR2 defense is 0. Every +stat bonus you get, raises it by 1, and every +skill gives you +1, every level +3. But once the combined total is 100, all of those sources give you half their normal bonus. Then once you reach 200, they give 1/4, then 1/8 at 300....and so on and so forth.

Again, I am only inventing numbers here, and it's also possible only certain bonuses have diminishing returns, while others remain static. I certainly can ascertain more if I decide to do more testing.

I did cast 215, and saw that it only gave me a +1 bonus. I would wager that means spell bonuses are also affected by the diminishing returns, which even further fits into my "total sum" diminishing returns theory.

To be frank, though, I may not care to test it much further, since my main aim was to find out the practical application for Midgar. And all I have found out just makes me angry - especially since I devoted so much effort to reducing my AP and increasing my SMR2 defense, all of which now seem pointless due to the pathetic or even non-existent gains.

[Realk]

seriously white knighting against the cman change to help shorter rogues, whistle blowing against this... What does make you happy? none of your posts since you have came back have been positive.

[Realk]

not being a cheerleader nor do i care to see who left the negative rep... but i also dont condone making being 100% negative about any change that doesnt effectively make my main stronger. I do agree rogues need some work and what they have got is minimal. just dont shit on things just because you didn't get anything cool out of the deal.

[Nephelem]

I left the negative Rep. He's bitching while posting useful information in a mechanics thread. You are apparently just here to tell us what you approve of.

[Hightower]

seriously white knighting against the cman change to help shorter rogues, whistle blowing against this... What does make you happy? none of your posts since you have came back have been positive.

Wow. It looks like he went through a great deal of effort to figure this stuff out and I have to agree that it's pretty shocking how this was designed. I can't say I blame the guy for feeling that rogues are in a terrible state all around. Combat for rogues? Pretty much bottom tier, right? Locksmithing? Basically a complete failure of a system at this point with no will from the GMs to tackle the problem in any meaningful way. You'd think that at least this being one of the areas they are objectively the best at it would at least amount to something, but apparently not. What exactly do you expect him to be positive about?