Shocking SMR2 Findings.

[Fierna]

What crit changes? And there are uncrittable critters at cap?

[Mobius1]

What crit changes? And there are uncrittable critters at cap?

Anything non-corp is uncrittable, and therefore a very bad target for a rogue.

As for crit changes, the crit divisors used to vary between each weapon type (If memory serves. It's been a long time.). Now they are flat based on armor group. Also, they added crit randomization, and made it so that you can have less than 5 second RT with smaller weapons.

[GSIV Rogue]

To me, rogues feel like a relic of an old era when:

• You couldn't just pay silver to NPC locksmiths to save time (and save TPs for the rogues themselves).
  
• Filling your exp pool on a supernode was awesome because there was no alternative of the adventurer's guild giving saturated experience. (And no Gift of Lumnis, no Rings of Lumnis brooches, no LTE boosts...)
  
• Cap was a really faraway thing for most people, so profession balance would be mostly about pre-cap hunting grounds where (I assume) ambushing rogues and archer rogues are just fine. Instead it's usually about post-cap, where you're basically always dealing with swarms, uncrittable enemies, or even sheer fear (liches).

By now all the rogue perks are things I don't really care about. It's a shame, but it's where we're at.

@Relics - Yes. Nerfed relics.

@NPC Locksmiths / Exp. supdernode / Cap - At the time when the highest level creature in the game was 128 (vaespilons) - and there was no level cap - you could get to level 138 from hunting. After that, with 40 ranks of pick / disarm you could sit in the East Tower and stay fried nonstop picking pooka and below boxes while interacting with other characters, helping new adventurers, taking an occasional PvP break, etc.

@Hunting - There was no archery. A redux rogue with 3x hiding, max AS / ambushing skills, spells, and multi-opps was the equivalent of a walking God. This was possible to do by ~level 110 (while you were still leveling up - not hunting the same mobs over and over again for a decade+ while staying the same level and "rounding out" your skills) Everything crittable died on a 107-115+ endroll. Ambush never missed unless there was a fumble or your AS just wasn't high enough.

@ "Perks" - Rogues went from being my absolute favorite class to play to getting shafted so hard in the current game environment (ambush, casting in heavy armor, pickpocketing, cman smastery , SMR2 diminishing returns, etc.) that I'd never consider creating another one.

[GSIV Rogue]

Also, they added crit randomization, and made it so that you can have less than 5 second RT with smaller weapons.

I'd rather have +1 RT and kill with a falchion or a waraxe in one shot 98-99% of the time vs. the abysmal crit randomization system currently in place. Far and away the worst thing ever done to rogues.

[Mobius1]

I'd rather have +1 RT and kill with a falchion or a waraxe in one shot 98-99% of the time vs. the absolutely horrendously terrible crit randomization system currently in place. Far and away the worst thing ever done to rogues.

Combat is actually faster for us now, IMO, even though we lost the 115 end roll death crits. We now have EBP, which does suck, but now we have stance pushdown and shadow mastery. Before, hiding was always 3 seconds, and ambushing was 5 seconds minimum. Also, even at 2x CM, it generally was not enough to overcome the DS of the critter, so you usually had to do something to prone it first, like sweep or ewave.

With stance pushdown, you get to bypass all the frills and just kill it. And you can hide in 2 seconds, or 0 if you vanish. And sneak in 1 second, which is what I always do to move around a hunting ground.

As for spells, we actually have more access to them now, than we did before, since they dropped in cost (I think it was 80 MTP in GS3? Now 67.).

Also a BIG BIG BIG change that you are probably not thinking about, is the dodging skill. Before, shield was the only way for us to get DS. Because of dodging, we can now get way more DS than we ever could in GS3. Also, we have combat maneuvers - a couple of which I've already mentioned, but there are others that are pretty useful to us too.

We also have ensorcell now, which helps us shore up one of our largest weaknesses (TD.).

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more GS3 sucked compared to now. And there were no Shimmer Trinkets, which is all kinds of hell no!!

[Geijon]

This post in general about SMR2 is interesting. In a lot of gaming environments though even this minuscule advantage is a positive, think World of Warcraft raiding etc.

[Xred]

So for a Sorcerer’s smr2 Bandit defense. What should I prioritize? Xred has 42 ranks in CM and in 110 perception. CM or Perception?

[GSIV Rogue]

Combat is actually faster for us now, IMO, even though we lost the 115 end roll death crits. We now have EBP, which does suck, but now we have stance pushdown and shadow mastery. Before, hiding was always 3 seconds, and ambushing was 5 seconds minimum. Also, even at 2x CM, it generally was not enough to overcome the DS of the critter, so you usually had to do something to prone it first, like sweep or ewave.

With stance pushdown, you get to bypass all the frills and just kill it. And you can hide in 2 seconds, or 0 if you vanish. And sneak in 1 second, which is what I always do to move around a hunting ground.

If it weren't for crit randomization, I'd agree with you. The times where combat is faster doesn't make up for the times it is way slower and a lot more dangerous (missing location, no instant crit, EBP, etc.). This presents other problems like being caught in the open. A rogue's greatest strength was always the ability to kill reliably and remain relatively safe. Shadow mastery would be superb if there were no cooldown period/stamina penalty - which can create issues with running it constantly - even with 2x PF at high levels. Same for vanish. The hiding penalty and relatively high cost of using this makes it average at best. I never used guild skills for hunting in GSIII or GSIV - but being able to e-wave in plate was huge for crowd control. When creatures stood from being prone they did so in a more offensive stance. Hiding and waiting for a creature action (or peering / sneaking / waiting for a creature action) worked wonderfully - because this would lower stance without the need for pushdown. In the end, the slightly slower setup with the return of nearly guaranteed success and safety trumps any available hunting method in the current system.

As for spells, we actually have more access to them now, than we did before, since they dropped in cost (I think it was 80 MTP in GS3? Now 67.).

You are correct - it was 80 MTP to learn spells in GSIII. I dislike learning spells at the expense of redux. Without a level cap in place, rogues were able to have the best of both worlds.

Also a BIG BIG BIG change that you are probably not thinking about, is the dodging skill. Before, shield was the only way for us to get DS. Because of dodging, we can now get way more DS than we ever could in GS3. Also, we have combat maneuvers - a couple of which I've already mentioned, but there are others that are pretty useful to us too.

I dislike the addition of the dodging skill as it relates to squares. The entire EBP system leaves a lot to be desired for them. DS was *NEVER* an issue in GSIII for squares after the implementation of redux. Dodging is just a skill that was added and made necessary for squares to be viable. It eats up a ton of PTPs which are already in short supply - without a lot of ROI. Pre-cap, you're better off 2x PF and 1x Dodge as a square - post cap it doesn't matter because all of your skills are subject to diminishing returns anyway and you're already level 100. There is not a single skill on the entire cman list (or any combination of them) that I would rather have than a rogue's previous ability to kill safely and reliably.

We also have ensorcell now, which helps us shore up one of our largest weaknesses (TD.).

You could learn spells in both games, but with less penalty to redux in GSIII (no level cap).

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more GS3 sucked compared to now. And there were no Shimmer Trinkets, which is all kinds of hell no!!

As long as you are happy, that is all that matters. We all have to find our own motivation for playing. As I stated before, any race / class / training / stats = can make it to 100+ in GSIV. In the end it all comes down to how you enjoy spending your time. There are a lot of positives to the current gaming environment. The lich / bigshot combination is #1 for me by far - without which I wouldn't play. Semis are more powerful than ever before. People are still buying silvers. In the end:

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself."
~ George Bernard Shaw

[Mobius1]

This post in general about SMR2 is interesting. In a lot of gaming environments though even this minuscule advantage is a positive, think World of Warcraft raiding etc.

The main difference between GS and other games, is that GS is not attrition based combat. Generally when you get killed, it was due to one single attack against you, that either killed you outright, or set you up to be killed.

When you are talking a 4% difference in avoidance, in GS that just won't really translate into any noticeable difference, unless it actually puts you at or above 100% avoidance chance (which can't happen with SMR2 due to open rolls.).

Not that 4% difference is nothing. But part of the problem is that I am referring to it in terms of %. The reality is it's the same thing as +4 TD in the warding equation. Imagine if you could spend 100 ranks on lores, to increase a spell's TD bonus by 4 - Would it be worth the TPs? Only if the lore was actually valuable for something else - I doubt anyone would do it JUST for the TD.

Like I had said earlier in this thread (I think it was this thread. Maybe it was Discord.) - If Squares are supposed to be the best at SMR2 avoidance, do you really think that being only +7 SMR2 defense higher from their TWO HUNDRED extra ranks, is much of an improvement? Give me the same TD bonus as a semi, less 7, and then maybe I'd be a little more content with it working as it is.

The times where combat is faster doesn't make up for the times it is way slower and a lot more dangerous (missing location, no instant crit, EBP, etc.).

EBP is the only one that really makes it any more dangerous. Even if you miss the aimed location it will at least stun them for a very long time.

But unlike GS3, we have many new tools to deal with that. TWC actually is viable now, unlike back then, and so if your first swing is avoided, the second will probably land. Also, Vanish is fantastic, and is perfect for those moments when you get evaded.

Also, since we have shadow mastery and can sneak around the hunting area, this exposes is to far less attacks than ever before. Even if you were fast, you couldn't always get an attack in before getting casted on, in GS3. Now with the ability to sneak all around, you always get to make sure you get the first attack. You can even time the combat round if needed, by striking after they search for you.

There is also Whirling Dervish, and the ability to ambush with 2 weapons in 4 seconds, and kill two critters at once. Also, if you use small weapons, you can get your aim chance to like 90% or so.

Let's not forget the other great cmans (and shield skills if you go that route.), that increase your TD, strength, and whatever else. We also have enhancives, which coupled with stance pushdown pretty much negates any of the issues we took on because of crit randomization.

I would say that AT BEST, GS3 ambush was equal to what it is now, though I'd say it's far worse. Try hunting the Scatter and tell me you want the old GS3 system back! You'd get wrecked by Fetish Masters and Liches without stance pushdown and vanish.

My biggest issue with GS3 rogues, were that you had only 3 weapons to choose from (Mace, Falchion, or Handaxe), and the rest were 100% junk. You also had to use a shield, since TWC and Ranged were unviable. Now both those latter options are awesome, and Ranged is arguably the best weapon a rogue can use. And you can actually wield pretty much any weapon you want, and make it work for you now.

But clearly a lot of change IS needed. Are things better than they were? I think so. But compared to the other classes, we have progressed too little.

I would love to see EBP not work against ambush, or be significantly diminished - Honestly it only makes sense. And though the introduction of the EBP system was good for squares in one regard, it was actually more of a nerf than it was a bonus, because critters also got it. Meanwhile, pures (and semi's that are pures) got nothing but benefits from it, because their spells aren't impacted, but they can EBP attacks against them.

I dislike learning spells at the expense of redux.

The spell penalty is insignificant at the amount of ranks a rogue would learn.

DS was *NEVER* an issue in GSIII for squares after the implementation of redux. Dodging is just a skill that was added and made necessary for squares to be viable.

I prefer it this way. 90% redux with padded plate was just plain silly and needed to go. This is a better system. (Also, DS is sure nice for critters with flares and other goodies they get you with even on a low damage hit.).

Pre-cap, you're better off 2x PT and 1x Dodge as a square - post cap it doesn't matter because all of your skills are subject to diminishing returns anyway and you're already level 100. There is not a single skill on the entire cman list (or any combination of them) that I would rather have than a rogue's previous ability to kill safely and reliably.

Quite frankly, you haven't played a rogue post cap to really be able to say those things. Your old build would get WRECKED by crystal weapon ambushes in OTF (Ithzir ambush you and crystal weapons flare, and will very much kill you on an otherwise 1 damage hit. And you can't avoid it because it's an ambush.). You'd also get wrecked in the Scatter. I wouldn't dare go to SoS without Vanish. Been a while since I hunted Nelemar, but maybe that would be your only good option (Again, this is all if you could hypothetically hunt in these places as a GS3 rogue.).

The capped hunting grounds make the earlier hunting grounds look like child's play!

As for 1x dodge pre-cap? 2x dodging is WAY more valuable than 2x PF. 2x PF is not THAT valuable. 2x dodge should be the standard for a pre-cap rogue.

[Winter]

But they changed the way the hidden warding roll works, to prevent non-clerics from making good use of it.

When was 319 changed?