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Thread: UAC/OHE Ambusher Misc Questions (returning player)

  1. Default UAC/OHE Ambusher Misc Questions (returning player)

    My goal is to be able to ambush and pick effectively (or more precisely, I want to be able to pick and I cannot stand archery).

    Right now I'm attracted to UAC primarily because I can't figure out shield/dodge ranks to aim for.

    I'd love to get the conventional wisdom on:

    UAC vs OHE for crit ambush kills? Is one obviously better? Does it vary by level?

    If UAC, then 2x dodge? Is it worth going up to 2.5x?

    IF I go with OHE, I think the conventional wisdom is 1x shield, 2x dodge. Does that seem right?

    Finally, for all this, I'm currently in a set of chain mail at level 30 that I love. But does that make sense? Should I be in something lighter for some obvious reason?

  2. #2

    Default

    There are pros and cons to UAC ambush over regular ambush, but pound for pound, I feel regular ambush is superior.

    UAC does not have to deal with E/B/P, which is something people that advocate its superiority are quick to point out. But its drawback, is you are very unlikely to get a crit kill on your first attack with it. Even with above average UAF and heavy crit weighting, the majority of my UAC ambushes (that land where I aim) do not kill. Usually I have to re-hide, and ambush again at tier 3 positioning.

    Regular ambush, on the other hand, is usually going to kill on the first swing, as long as you are properly set up for what you are hunting.

    One nice thing about UAC, is that you can get dagger-like RT, and even predator's eye, with punch. If you are hunting things in plate, then UAC is pretty nice. But even then, it's arguable that it is superior, because though you may miss less often (predator's eye and no EBP), you still need to ambush twice (6 seconds extra RT total.). Ambushing with a heavier weapon, may add a second or two to your RT, and may miss more often - but will still usually kill on the first attack. The advantage of UAC in this, is the ability to stance dance more quickly. If that extra second or two results in you getting hit, then UAC is certainly the better option - but this is pretty highly circumstantial, and not a lot of things wear full plate.

    In the end, I would say the main advantage of UAC ambush, is that it is not really gear dependent. You are essentially going to obliterate your target at tier 3 (2nd ambush), regardless of what your MM or UAF is (Like how I do just fine when I first enter the rift at 7 spirit.).

    The other nice thing about sword and board, is the extra DS. You will have lower DS if you use UAC without a shield. Though with shielded brawler and 2x shield use, brawling with a shield is certainly a good option as well, though obviously more pricey.

    In the end, I'd suggest you make the decision based on RP reasons.

    As for dodge, 2x is for sure a baseline. If you are having DS issues, then by all means raise it higher. If you go UAC without shield, a lot of people go .5x TWC for the extra DS, as well.

    I am a personal fan of heavier armors as a rogue, even shooting for MBP or full plate once possible. But brig is also a hugely popular choice, and many get by just fine with it. If you are able to get spelled up when hunting, lighter armor becomes less and less of an issue, too.
    Last edited by Mobius1; 08-14-2019 at 03:40 PM.

  3. Default

    Thanks! This is all very helpful.

    So if I go with OHE ambush - would you target 1x Shield 2X dodge as a baseline to work up from?

  4. #4

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    Yep, that is the baseline for edged + shield. With a small shield.

  5. #5

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    UAC is nice if you have a wimpy melee AS cause you're a halfling or gnome.

    Also, I don't see why anyone would wear brig when you could take one step up to chain mail instead and benefit from the lower DF it provides.

  6. #6

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    Yeah, I think most people that choose brig, do so because it's sort of the stereotypical rogue armor, and not because it's actually the best choice, mechanically. That or they want to save a few TPs.

    Of course, there are those who choose it for its lower spell hindrance, in which case I personally make the argument for hauberk being better even in that case. Hell, you can even get MBP hindrance down to 16%! (Though that is really a post cap endeavor. But so are spells, usually.).

    Also, some people choose brig based on the incorrect belief that heavy armor has a stealth penalty, which it does not. You will hide just as easily in full plate as you would in robes, minus any bonuses you might get from armored stealth. But armored stealth isn't exactly fantastic in brig, and is IMO inferior to armored evasion in that case.

    Brig does have its place, and is probably best suited to those who are very TP starved and can hunt with enough spells to not get hit hard (or at all), or who have enough TD to ward what they hunt. Or for those who feel the lower spell hindrance is worthwhile to them (and don't care about the abysmal CvA, which is the main reason I personally prefer heavy armor.).

    Yes, my main reason for preferring plate over brig, especially MBP, is that brig is +2 CvA and MBP is -18. That's +20 TD, which to me, is absolutely priceless.

    Of course, simply moving up the chain subgroups is going to increase your TD as well, but that jump from chain to plate is the most significant (-9 CvA going from Hauberk to MBP.). Also, in regards to partial armors - as most know, you get the DF of the armor group, even if the body part is unprotected, but you do not get the crit divisor. But the thing is, the lower DF is waaaaay more important than the crit divisor, thus making partial armors very much worthwhile. IMO, the only real disadvantage you might have with partial armor, is you can't wear armor accessories, which loses you 2 good enhancive slots (Granted, there ARE rare arm/leg enhancives that are not armor accessories.).

    Anyways, I guess I am rambling on here a bit much. I just think the armor discussion for rogues is a pretty heated topic, so I wanted to just throw my opinions out there. In the end, one cool thing about rogues, IMO, is that we have so much armor choices that we can be successful with!
    Last edited by Mobius1; 08-15-2019 at 12:25 PM.

  7. #7

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    I'm post cap and have been in brig pretty much since before level 20. It's great now because I've been able to train my hinderance down to 0 with Armor Evasion, have DS spells up to 120 and 414, and the low hinderance makes using e-wave fun for crowds and especially for bandits. Of course you're not going to have all of that until post cap. If I had to do it over again I would probably continue to upgrade to the next armor tier as fast as I could at least up to MBP, and then switch back down to brig once I had all the spells and TPs to train in other things to get my DS up.
    Staying in brig is definitely doable, especially if you can afford to get hcp and ensorcels, but I think chain and then plate would be even better while leveling up if you have the TPs to at least 1x armor.

  8. Default

    I like brig for rogues. Always have. It's no sweat to hit 30 ranks and then stop, leaving you plenty of TPs while training for picking, both pockets and locks, trading, skinning. My biggest regret on my way to cap is not getting the secondary skills. Some of the capped hunting areas are quite poor by comparison to the underhunted areas you'll experience getting to cap, leading to your best silver-making coming while training.

    There's of course the case to be made for heavier armor earlier, as Powpow just laid out, and you'll take a couple deaths extra training in brig rather than going straight for MBP or full plate, but I think the benefits of all the other stuff you get to train while TPs are tight outweigh the drawbacks.

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