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Thread: Unionization movement amongst gaming employees

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taernath View Post
    My understanding is there are a lot of issues with offsite/overseas dev, but I'm not in that industry so I can't say for certain. As far as the things he was complaining about (health issues, layoffs, scheduling), those are literally what unions would be fighting for.
    Thoughtworks does pretty well with it, out of Dallas/Chicago. The main downside is that you're paying at least one in-country employee per project the price of 4-5 local coders to move across the country once every 6 months to a year depending on project length and keep India's hours to be awake at the same time to communicate with the team. You save some on the coding, and the quality is there, but the overhead is high because you do need at least one or two people on site at Director's salaries plus living expenses.
    Last edited by Stumplicker; 06-18-2019 at 03:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumplicker View Post
    Thoughtworks does pretty well with it, out of Dallas/Chicago. The main downside is that you're paying at least one in-country employee per project the price of 4-5 local coders to move across the country once every 6 months to a year depending on project length and keep India's hours to be awake at the same time to communicate with the team. You save some on the coding, and the quality is there, but the overhead is high because you do need at least one or two people on site at Director's salaries plus living expenses.
    No, I think they'd move their entire dev department out of country. Not just a few guys out there. Open up an entire studio out there.

    And by open up, I mean buy one that is already there.
    Last edited by Gelston; 06-18-2019 at 03:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelston View Post
    No, I think they'd move their entire dev department out of country. Not just a few guys out there. Open up an entire studio out there.

    And by open up, I mean buy one that is already there.
    One of the reasons Thoughtworks has offices in about six different countries, yes. And in each one they still outsource their work to India and work in the same way.

    Workers wanting fair treatment and equal rights doesn't always result in companies saying fuck it and packing up shop then moving to other countries who also have laws. In fact, most of those other countries with a talent pool have stricter workplace laws and taxes than the US, so it's no picnic moving. I mean, Paradox is an EU development studio. They do well. In a socialist country with 50 some percent income tax. That probably doesn't seem very attractive a prospect to Microsoft just to avoid treating workers fairly.

    One of the reasons silicon valley is so called is because that's where the primary talent pool exists. You want quality workers, you go where quality workers are. It's one of the many reasons Daikatana got all fucky. John Romero moved to Dallas before it was cool and ended up paying extra hiring people to move there to work for them.
    Last edited by Stumplicker; 06-18-2019 at 03:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumplicker View Post
    One of the reasons Thoughtworks has offices in about six different countries, yes. And in each one they still outsource their work to India and work in the same way.

    Workers wanting fair treatment and equal rights doesn't always result in companies saying fuck it and packing up shop then moving to other countries who also have laws. In fact, most of those other countries with a talent pool have stricter workplace laws and taxes than the US, so it's no picnic moving. I mean, Paradox is an EU development studio. They do well. In a socialist country with 50 some percent income tax. That probably doesn't seem very attractive a prospect to Microsoft just to avoid treating workers fairly.

    One of the reasons silicon valley is so called is because that's where the primary talent pool exists. You want quality workers, you go where quality workers are. It's one of the many reasons Daikatana got all fucky. John Romero moved to Dallas before it was cool and ended up paying extra hiring people to move there to work for them.
    You're trying to act like workers in the US don't get fair treatment. I think they do. I think people are upset because they don't do their research on the way of the industry before the jump into it. They are "zomg! Dream job!" and just go straight into what can pretty much be considered seasonal employment. When you're new and at the bottom, you aren't going to have all the sweet, sweet benefits. You have to work your way up and earn it.

    Moving from project to project and staying in they industry and not saying fuck it and leaving IS how you get quality workers. Attrition weeds out the people who shouldn't be around. These are the people who have shown they can do a good job. They have shown they can network. They have shown they aren't a complete fucking asshole and people enjoy having them around.
    Last edited by Gelston; 06-18-2019 at 03:59 PM.
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taernath View Post
    Unions step in, put laid off workers on the books, and find them some place to go. It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than just being shown the door.
    Which unions are these? When I was laid off from my only union job the union did exactly jack shit for me. I'm sure they negotiated all of the benefits I received for being laid off and were responsible for us being given a 1 month notice, but when it came to the actual laying off part the union was no where to be found. They sure as heck didn't try to get me another job, my employer offered me a transfer but I wasn't in a position to move half way across the country at that time.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taernath View Post
    I take it tub installers never organized? I could salt for you.
    We did not.. but my gf wants to organize for her job at McDonalds... probably because she is a very shitty employee (but an amazing lover)
    Last edited by Parkbandit; 06-18-2019 at 04:05 PM.
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelston View Post
    You're trying to act like workers in the US don't get fair treatment. I think they do. I think people are upset because they don't do their research on the way of the industry before the jump into it. They are "zomg! Dream job!" and just go straight into what can pretty much be considered seasonal employment. When you're new and at the bottom, you aren't going to have all the sweet, sweet benefits. You have to work your way up and earn it.

    Moving from project to project and staying in they industry and not saying fuck it and leaving IS how you get quality workers. Attrition weeds out the people who shouldn't be around. These are the people who have shown they can do a good job. They have shown they can network. They have shown they aren't a complete fucking asshole and people enjoy having them around.
    Plus everyone's a fragile pussy these days, so there's that too.
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  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelston View Post
    You're trying to act like workers in the US don't get fair treatment. I think they do. I think people are upset because they don't do their research on the way of the industry before the jump into it. They are "zomg! Dream job!" and just go straight into what can pretty much be considered seasonal employment. When you're new and at the bottom, you aren't going to have all the sweet, sweet benefits. You have to work your way up and earn it.

    Moving from project to project and staying in IS how you get quality workers. These are the people who have shown they can do a good job. They have shown they can network. They have shown they aren't a complete fucking asshole and people enjoy having them around.
    No, I'm not acting like that. And yes, there is some of that going on, but there's always a balance that needs to be struck in any industry. Coming from New Jersey, I'm generally vehemently anti-union in most cases, since many of the unions there are far, far too powerful and the balance of power has tipped too far the other direction.

    But unions exist for a reason, and there are a number of industries that would benefit from them in order for the individuals that work in an industry to be better off. Technology and its practices are all very employer-favored because like you said, it's what idealistic people think is a dream job. It doesn't need a lot of balancing, but it could use some. This becomes less necessary as the demand grows and the talent pool shrinks, but that's not the case here. Companies know that there's a local source of cheap labor available at any point so long as their practices allow them to recycle people like disposable batteries.

    Yes, get rid of the bad ones and keep the good ones. That's the goal of any employer. But that's not the practice in the tech sector. One of the practices that needs balance is incorporating a company for a specific job, like a development studio whose parent company is Microsoft, finishing the job, then folding the company and firing everyone, just to re-hire them back for the next paper company at an entry level salary, because what are they gonna do? They're now unemployed and applying against recent college grads willing to work for peanuts. It's like Hollywood accounting, and nobody could accuse that of being the right way to do anything.
    Last edited by Stumplicker; 06-18-2019 at 04:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumplicker View Post
    No, I'm not acting like that. And yes, there is some of that going on, but there's always a balance that needs to be struck in any industry. Coming from New Jersey, I'm generally vehemently anti-union in most cases, since many of the unions there are far, far too powerful and the balance of power has tipped too far the other direction.

    But unions exist for a reason, and there are a number of industries that would benefit from them in order for the individuals that work in an industry to be better off. Technology and its practices are all very employer-favored because like you said, it's what idealistic people think is a dream job. It doesn't need a lot of balancing, but it could use some. This becomes less necessary as the demand grows and the talent pool shrinks, but that's not the case here. Companies know that there's a local source of cheap labor available at any point so long as their practices allow them to recycle people like disposable batteries.

    Yes, get rid of the bad ones and keep the good ones. That's the goal of any employer. But that's not the practice in the tech sector. One of the practices that needs balance is incorporating a company for a specific job, like a development studio whose parent company is Microsoft, finishing the job, then folding the company and firing everyone, just to re-hire them back for the next paper company at an entry level salary, because what are they gonna do? They're now unemployed and applying against recent college grads willing to work for peanuts. It's like Hollywood accounting, and nobody could accuse that of being the right way to do anything.
    Unions "existed" for a reason. And they don't rehire back at entry level, and anyone that accepts that is stupid and needs to know their worth. You begin creating a resume, your body of work gets larger, you come on with more pay. Eventually you get into management and director positions. Also, you could research and not work for fucking microsoft?

    ZOS is almost always hiring for their MMO. That is pretty damn stable.
    Last edited by Gelston; 06-18-2019 at 04:11 PM.
    Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelston View Post
    Unions "existed" for a reason. And they don't rehire back at entry level, and anyone that accepts that is stupid and needs to know their worth. You begin creating a resume, your body of work gets larger, you come on with more pay. Eventually you get into management and director positions. Also, you could research and not work for fucking microsoft?
    Microsoft is far from the only tech company that takes advantage. I'm only using it as an example because it's the one I laid out before. If you'd like another one off the top of my head, Gearbox has worked similarly in the past, as has 2K Games (and boy have they especially), but it's harder, for example, for Bethesda to do the same. The talent pool in their area is smaller so you're more likely to lose employees to companies with better practices.

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