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Thread: Loot Box Bill has legs...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taernath View Post
    I'm really interested in seeing how they articulate that. Does a consumer have a 'right' to play an otherwise f2p game as much as they want? Does this also apply to extra lives, subscriptions, or premium memberships? Can't wait for the legal definition of what constitutes "pay to win", even gamers haven't been able to figure that out.
    I'd like to see them make the alternate currency part of it the part that gets the axe. There are two or three points to the alternate currency, and all of them are shitty marketing tactics. They add a layer in between money and spending it so you don't think of it as spending money. They only ever sell you uneven amounts so you always have a leftover balance that gets "wasted" if you don't buy more. They frequently give you a "first hit is free" level of alternate currency to get you invested in the system, and jumpstart that part where you have a balance you can't cash out. And on that note, you can never cash it out.

    If Candycrush stopped you from playing and said "It will cost $5 to continue playing today. Please enter credit card information now", I would be okay with that. Mostly because way fewer people would do it and the business model would die.
    Last edited by Stumplicker; 05-24-2019 at 10:48 AM.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koars Light View Post
    Hawley’s Protecting Children from Abusive Games Act would, if approved, prohibit video game companies from selling loot boxes to children under the age of 18
    Technically they're being sold to the kids' parents, since that's whose credit card it goes on. If a parent is so stupid that they leave their CC info saved to where their kid can just push a button and buy stuff, that's the parent's fault for sucking at parenting.

    and make it unlawful for minor-oriented games to include pay-to-win mechanics. If a games company was found to be unlawfully including these features in games targeted to minors it would be financially penalized.
    Who gets to determine what is and isn't "minor-oriented," and what criteria is being used to determine it?
    Last edited by Methais; 05-24-2019 at 12:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back
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    Quote Originally Posted by Androidpk View Post
    And feel free to get me banned, not going to stop my lawyer from sending Kranar a subpoena for IP information on a couple of people.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koars Light View Post
    It actually get’s worse and applies to effectively ALL microtransactions...
    Which is why I said the government needs to stay the fuck out because they're going to fuck up all kinds of shit trying to regulate this. Right Stumplicker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stumplicker View Post
    Something where it lets you start and then stops you after a while and tells you you can't continue without paying. Candy Crush I think did this. You'd have a certain number of lives per day, and if you used them, you had to pay premium currency for more lives. Atlantica Online's another example. When that was in its early stages you had stamina, and when you were out of stamina for the day, your choices were stop playing or buy a "license".
    How is this any different than being in an arcade and putting in more quarters once your lives run out? Not to mention you don't get free lives in the arcade by waiting around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maerit View Post
    The majority of your "whales" in those communities are rich children who have no concept of the value of the money they're throwing at a game and their parents have no concept of how to parent.
    Fixed.
    Last edited by Methais; 05-24-2019 at 12:16 PM.
    www.twitch.tv/3piecesofbread
    Quote Originally Posted by Back
    I am a retard. I'm disabled. I'm poor. I'm black. I'm gay. I'm transgender. I'm a woman.



    Quote Originally Posted by Androidpk View Post
    And feel free to get me banned, not going to stop my lawyer from sending Kranar a subpoena for IP information on a couple of people.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumplicker View Post
    I'd like to see them make the alternate currency part of it the part that gets the axe. There are two or three points to the alternate currency, and all of them are shitty marketing tactics. They add a layer in between money and spending it so you don't think of it as spending money. They only ever sell you uneven amounts so you always have a leftover balance that gets "wasted" if you don't buy more. They frequently give you a "first hit is free" level of alternate currency to get you invested in the system, and jumpstart that part where you have a balance you can't cash out. And on that note, you can never cash it out.

    If Candycrush stopped you from playing and said "It will cost $5 to continue playing today. Please enter credit card information now", I would be okay with that. Mostly because way fewer people would do it and the business model would die.
    As much as I dislike alt-currency and obfuscation tactics, and would like to see them gone, I'm not sure that's something that needs to be legislated.
    You had better pay your guild dues before you forget. You are 113 months behind.

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Taernath View Post
    As much as I dislike alt-currency and obfuscation tactics, and would like to see them gone, I'm not sure that's something that needs to be legislated.
    No, and it's not anything that's on the table with any of these bills, but I'd like to see it nonetheless. It's dishonest marketing at best. I put it in the same realm as telemarketing, unsolicited robocalling and email spam, which for the record I also believe should be heavily punished. They're all things employed only by people you can barely classify as human that won't stop unless someone stops them.
    Last edited by Stumplicker; 05-24-2019 at 12:39 PM.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Methais View Post
    Fixed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stumplicker View Post
    No, and it's not anything that's on the table with any of these bills, but I'd like to see it nonetheless. It's dishonest marketing at best. I put it in the same realm as telemarketing, unsolicited robocalling and email spam, which for the record I also believe should be heavily punished. They're all things employed only by people you can barely classify as human that won't stop unless someone stops them.
    There are brick & mortar examples of this being done for decades prior to it happening in video games. Just look at the tokens / tickets and such that used to be the "alternate currency" used by arcades, carnivals and places like showbiz pizza, chucky cheese, and dave and busters.

    Hell, GS4 modeled many of their events after the carnival concept, but put it in a virtual world. Carnies have been using tickets as currency since the 20s!
    Last edited by Maerit; 05-24-2019 at 02:05 PM.

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maerit View Post
    There are brick & mortar examples of this being done for decades prior to it happening in video games. Just look at the tokens / tickets and such that used to be the "alternate currency" used by arcades, carnivals and places like showbiz pizza, chucky cheese, and dave and busters.

    Hell, GS4 modeled many of their events after the carnival concept, but put it in a virtual world. Carnies have been using tickets as currency since the 20s!
    And? I'm not sure what your point is. "It's a good model because carnies do it"? Is that it?

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maerit View Post




    There are brick & mortar examples of this being done for decades prior to it happening in video games. Just look at the tokens / tickets and such that used to be the "alternate currency" used by arcades, carnivals and places like showbiz pizza, chucky cheese, and dave and busters.

    Hell, GS4 modeled many of their events after the carnival concept, but put it in a virtual world. Carnies have been using tickets as currency since the 20s!
    The difference though is most if not all arcade games that spit out tickets are considered skill based instead of luck based. If I'm not mistaken, something being skill based disqualifies it from being classified as gambling since gambling is entirely based on luck, with a couple exceptions where it's only 99% based on luck instead of 100%, as games like blackjack and poker have some bit of strategy to them, but still have to rely on luck.
    Last edited by Methais; 05-24-2019 at 02:41 PM.
    www.twitch.tv/3piecesofbread
    Quote Originally Posted by Back
    I am a retard. I'm disabled. I'm poor. I'm black. I'm gay. I'm transgender. I'm a woman.



    Quote Originally Posted by Androidpk View Post
    And feel free to get me banned, not going to stop my lawyer from sending Kranar a subpoena for IP information on a couple of people.

  9. Default

    You also never stand to win more than you spend in a chuck e cheese. The prizes you trade in for are exclusively less valuable than the money you've spent. Dave and Busters is also an establishment for adults only. And both of them are limited as to what types of games they can have because as Methais said, they have to be considered at least 51% skill based. That's why you'll see things like skee ball or whack-a-mole but not a roulette wheel in Chuck E Cheese. When you're spending your alternate currency for a slot machine that may spit out a $1500 counterstrike gun skin or something for your $??? investment per slot machine pull, it's a different thing entirely.
    Last edited by Stumplicker; 05-24-2019 at 02:49 PM.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumplicker View Post
    And? I'm not sure what your point is. "It's a good model because carnies do it"? Is that it?
    My point is that it's not going to change. It actually can be a good model, assuming the person running it has some business sense. I'm not sure what is dishonest about getting tickets that can be exchanged for prizes. Where it becomes a problem (i.e. gemstone) is when earning the tickets becomes the point of the game, and not a minor perk to playing something for fun.

    Take ski ball for example. That game has been around for decades, and it's still popular. It's not popular because you win tickets. It's popular because you play a skill-based game that people find engaging, and get appropriately rewarded for said "skill". If the company who made ski ball was required to reward you with cash instead of an alternate currency, the game would be a liability and no longer allowed. Exploiting ski ball isn't hard if no one is looking, and tickets ensure you never get an item more valuable than what you spent playing the game (assuming you can hit the max prize for every ball).

    Another reason is that any institution that dispense legal tender is subject to a lot of additional regulations. If Dave & Busters allowed you to redeem the "credits" on their player cards for cash, they'd have to adhere to banking regulations because technically they are banking your money while you play their games. And that is exactly why you get tickets that have no monetary value as a reward, and those tickets can only be used for prizes at that facility.

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