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Thread: Spring spectacular: 925?

  1. #71
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    Also, wizard lores aren’t essential. They aren’t part of success criteria for enchanting. So having a cow over bonuses is dumb.
    Last edited by Fortybox; 05-06-2019 at 12:44 PM.

  2. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Methais View Post
    Can you tell us which people asked for it to be a massively convoluted system where they don't even give out the info needed to understand fully how it works, vs. ensorcell's "kill and forget" method whose bonus is based on 1 lore instead of 3?

    The concept isn't bad. But as usual, Simu fails miserably in the execution.
    You mean aside from giving an eye to every potential new system as to how easy it is to script it, which I've already said?

    Alright. Here's another reasoning:

    Like many other decisions, additional complexity in a system is a marketing tactic employed in the video game industry constantly. Quick and easy to master gets boring more quickly than something with a steeper learning curve, and the player gets a sense of accomplishment that keeps them around longer with a more arduous task completion.

    Without a wiki and 30 years of accumulated knowledge, a large number of Gemstone's already existing systems fall into this category. Have you ever tried to do the math on whether holding weapons with UAC is worthwhile? Of course you haven't. It's needlessly complex, and someone has already done the math and conveniently placed it on the wiki for you, so that system isn't complex. It's a simple Q. Should I wield weapons with UAC? A. No. Why? Who cares. Math already done.

    This system is brand new, and not all the information is disseminated yet to make it simple for everyone to understand. Make no mistake, however. It will get there, and rapidly, like literally every other system the game has ever introduced. No, we don't know the exact spellburst formula. We don't know the exact skinning formula. We don't know the exact redux formula. But through trial and error, educated guessing, and testing, we now have scripts to tell you with 99.9% accuracy how good you are at all of those.

    It's not like the OLD system of enchanting was any less complex, what with pouring temper potions and waiting X days and figuring out this or that or infusing potions with these lores or that, and getting naked so your halfling can hold the full plate without encumbrance on a node in a workshop and figuring out what the fuck that messaging meant and oh okay it must be sanctified or whatever, so it needs this other potion too and uh oh, my item got locked, I wonder how that works, maybe I can unenchant it and start over or wait for a merchant to unlock it, alright that's fixed, now just repeat that seven more times and it'll gain an enchant level. In fact, I'd argue that the new system is LESS complex than the old. The reason you don't consider the old complex is because you already know it, and all the info is right there on the wiki if you have a question.

    In a month's time, all that info will be updated for this system, which again, is less complex than the old one.

    So to re-iterate - No sympathy. My wizard hunted most of yesterday and now he's maxed out on his weekly whatever, so I'll probably be able to enchant something next time I try. Good for him. If I want to know more, I'll wait a couple weeks for the wiki to catch up.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumplicker View Post
    You mean aside from giving an eye to every potential new system as to how easy it is to script it, which I've already said?

    Alright. Here's another reasoning:

    Like many other decisions, additional complexity in a system is a marketing tactic employed in the video game industry constantly. Quick and easy to master gets boring more quickly than something with a steeper learning curve, and the player gets a sense of accomplishment that keeps them around longer with a more arduous task completion.

    Without a wiki and 30 years of accumulated knowledge, a large number of Gemstone's already existing systems fall into this category. Have you ever tried to do the math on whether holding weapons with UAC is worthwhile? Of course you haven't. It's needlessly complex, and someone has already done the math and conveniently placed it on the wiki for you, so that system isn't complex. It's a simple Q. Should I wield weapons with UAC? A. No. Why? Who cares. Math already done.

    This system is brand new, and not all the information is disseminated yet to make it simple for everyone to understand. Make no mistake, however. It will get there, and rapidly, like literally every other system the game has ever introduced. No, we don't know the exact spellburst formula. We don't know the exact skinning formula. We don't know the exact redux formula. But through trial and error, educated guessing, and testing, we now have scripts to tell you with 99.9% accuracy how good you are at all of those.

    It's not like the OLD system of enchanting was any less complex, what with pouring temper potions and waiting X days and figuring out this or that or infusing potions with these lores or that, and getting naked so your halfling can hold the full plate without encumbrance on a node in a workshop and figuring out what the fuck that messaging meant and oh okay it must be sanctified or whatever, so it needs this other potion too and uh oh, my item got locked, I wonder how that works, maybe I can unenchant it and start over or wait for a merchant to unlock it, alright that's fixed, now just repeat that seven more times and it'll gain an enchant level. In fact, I'd argue that the new system is LESS complex than the old. The reason you don't consider the old complex is because you already know it, and all the info is right there on the wiki if you have a question.

    In a month's time, all that info will be updated for this system, which again, is less complex than the old one.

    So to re-iterate - No sympathy. My wizard hunted most of yesterday and now he's maxed out on his weekly whatever, so I'll probably be able to enchant something next time I try. Good for him. If I want to know more, I'll wait a couple weeks for the wiki to catch up.
    OMG too many words as usual but Flimbo is right.

    Also LOL at you maximizing in one day. Discord was having a cow about the ability to do that yesterday. Bunch of whiny babies. Simu has a horrible track record but this is one thing they did right.

  4. #74

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    Honestly, there's no reason to over-evaluate this system. Some people have been able to get maximum energy in like 7-8 hours of regular hunting. You don't have to try to min-max this new system, just hunt normally, train appropriately, and you get energy. My sorcerer has to hunt for around 10 hours of regular bounty hunting to maximize his necro energy. I could just go sit inside a warcamp, kill everything with a mana battery outside to constantly keep me going, and then in about 4 hours of doing that mindless task accomplish the same goal, but I'm fine spreading 10 hours of hunting out over a week period of time and achieving both more XP and maxing the necro energy gains.

    Secondly, warmages are being looked into. They didn't propose an immediate solution, but Naos has already confirmed multiple times on Discord, that they are investigating an appropriate solution to the warmage dilemma, so that is underway.

    Wizards who don't hunt are still more valuable than sorcerers who don't hunt... Better spellups, better imbed options, capable of recharging wands and other MRs items (statues, orbs, and treasure generated items of value). While sorcerers who don't hunt really only have scroll infusing options to offer.
    Last edited by Maerit; 05-06-2019 at 01:24 PM.

  5. #75

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    So, I did a small test with a level 45 wizard underhunting 5 levels.

    CASTER LEVEL: 45
    TARGET LEVEL: 40

    Relevant skills:

    Harness Power......................| 166 66
    Elemental Mana Control.............| 188 88
    Elemental Lore - Air...............| 102 24
    Elemental Lore - Earth.............| 10 2
    Elemental Lore - Fire..............| 90 20

    Note: No Water lore

    Normal hunting.

    901: 16 casts (16 mana)
    904: 94 casts (376 mana)
    505: 19 casts (95 mana) Tonis bolt
    906: 2 casts (12 mana)
    917: 2 casts (34 mana)
    _________________________

    Total: 133 casts (533 mana expended)

    And this was the result:

    You have accumulated sufficient essence to complete the first cast of a first tier enchantment.

    If the messaging above indicates an accumulation of 100 essence points, then to reach the weekly 16,000 cap would require increasing the casts and mana by a factor of 160 (21,280 casts with a mana expenditure of 85,280) and then another factor of 4 to reach the 64,000 essence maximum cap (85,120 casts with an expenditure of 341,120 mana). If accurate, this seems a tad penal lol. Without any examples from Naos it's difficult to say if these results are the norm or not intended.

    Mark
    Last edited by Riltus; 05-06-2019 at 07:57 PM. Reason: Forgot two 917 casts

  6. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riltus View Post
    So, I did a small test with a level 45 wizard underhunting 5 levels.

    CASTER LEVEL: 45
    TARGET LEVEL: 40

    Relevant skills:

    Harness Power......................| 166 66
    Elemental Mana Control.............| 188 88
    Elemental Lore - Air...............| 102 24
    Elemental Lore - Earth.............| 10 2
    Elemental Lore - Fire..............| 90 20

    Note: No Water lore

    Normal hunting.

    901: 16 casts (16 mana)
    904: 94 casts (376 mana)
    505: 19 casts (95 mana) Tonis bolt
    906: 2 casts (12 mana)
    _________________________

    Total: 131 casts (499 mana expended)

    And this was the result:

    You have accumulated sufficient essence to complete the first cast of a first tier enchantment.

    If the messaging above indicates an accumulation of 100 essence points then to reach the weekly 16,000 cap would require increasing the casts and mana by a factor of 160 (20,960 casts with a mana expenditure of 79,840) and then another factor of 4 to reach the 64,000 essence maximum cap (83,840 casts with an expenditure of 319,360 mana). If accurate, this seems a tad penal lol. Without any examples from Naos it's difficult to say if these results are the norm or not intended.

    Mark
    How does the mana use break down in the hunt?

    My incredibly rudimentary approach so far has been to radically change how I hunt. I'll go out after a pulse, spam a bunch of spells and wait for the next pulse to absorb "static". Then I go out and burst again. This optimizes my wizzum absorption but goes against the standard "hunt to fried and then rest" approach. It may have been mentioned, but I think using the mana points system that was in place (with tweaks) that worked off EXP absorption combined with the new instant cast system would have been the best case scenario. This new system seems to go against conventional hunting and EXP absorption strategies.

    I still like the changes overall, but finding the optimal generation setup/strategy with limited hunting time is going to be interesting. I did manage to get almost a full second cast with about an hour or two of hunting my standard way in sanctum though. Its usually blast a swarm down and instantly fry and rest though. I spend more time sitting around on node absorbing then I do actively hunting during pulses.

  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnOrdim View Post
    How does the mana use break down in the hunt?

    My incredibly rudimentary approach so far has been to radically change how I hunt. I'll go out after a pulse, spam a bunch of spells and wait for the next pulse to absorb "static". Then I go out and burst again. This optimizes my wizzum absorption but goes against the standard "hunt to fried and then rest" approach. It may have been mentioned, but I think using the mana points system that was in place (with tweaks) that worked off EXP absorption combined with the new instant cast system would have been the best case scenario. This new system seems to go against conventional hunting and EXP absorption strategies.

    I still like the changes overall, but finding the optimal generation setup/strategy with limited hunting time is going to be interesting. I did manage to get almost a full second cast with about an hour or two of hunting my standard way in sanctum though. Its usually blast a swarm down and instantly fry and rest though. I spend more time sitting around on node absorbing then I do actively hunting during pulses.
    It's the lack of water lore that hurts mark's numbers.

    <whatever the fuck factors, seemingly EMC and seed fire lore> improve the mana spent to static bank ratio

    then <some factor derived from HP> and EL:W Bonus (naos' post just straight says bonus adds) determine how much "static" is absorbed to your essence, which occurs around a mana pulse, but not exactly (i think it happens every 2 minutes, not on the actual mana pulse which is randomized around 2 minutes +/- 30 seconds I recall)

    If you have a good amount of water lore, you can basically absorb all the static you can make. With 0 water lore and only 60ish HP, i assume he was wasting most of his mana generated. If the bonus directly increases how much you can keep as it seems it does, 20ish water lore means you can convert 100 mana per pulse. At that point it's effectively as much mana as you can get.
    Mithrilschlong, 2015-03-10 to slightly later on 2015-03-10. You will not be forgotten!

  8. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donquix View Post
    It's the lack of water lore that hurts mark's numbers.

    <whatever the fuck factors, seemingly EMC and seed fire lore> improve the mana spent to static bank ratio

    then <some factor derived from HP> and EL:W Bonus (naos' post just straight says bonus adds) determine how much "static" is absorbed to your essence, which occurs around a mana pulse, but not exactly (i think it happens every 2 minutes, not on the actual mana pulse which is randomized around 2 minutes +/- 30 seconds I recall)

    If you have a good amount of water lore, you can basically absorb all the static you can make. With 0 water lore and only 60ish HP, i assume he was wasting most of his mana generated. If the bonus directly increases how much you can keep as it seems it does, 20ish water lore means you can convert 100 mana per pulse. At that point it's effectively as much mana as you can get.
    That was my impression as well. I happen to have a large amount of water lore (reduced from 133 to 100) and had low fire and air. This was "good" for generation under the mana point system but turns out not great for this new system. I was absorbing all the static I was generating but since its per pulse it wasn't fitting very well into my hunting routine. I can go into the sanctum and with a well-placed cast of 950 and a few 917's be fried in two rooms.

    I'm not complaining (or at least not trying to), just trying to find a new hunting style that finds a good balance between EXP absorption and wizzum absorption.

  9. Default

    Here's an update since yesterday - a change in the messaging from SENSE to make it more clear:

    You sense that you have accumulated enough essence to complete a +X enchantment.

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnOrdim View Post
    How does the mana use break down in the hunt?
    There were a total of 35 kills. The gen rate was a bit slow but steady. The character is on lumnis so, consequently, never fried and spent the majority of the time in the field with very little time on node. Also made frequent use of 516 so mana never became an issue. I just wanted to put myself in the place of a casual player not ideally set up for hunting to see how these changes might affect them.

    I'm not sure how much the lack of water lore impacted these results. Since I don't discord, I'm not privy to the current discussions. But the results I had are so far afield from anything reasonable I'm concerned that there are going to be major imbalances in essence accumulation from character to character based on hunting styles and level v level factors. We're talking 83k casts to reach 64K essence. It's absurd. And this character isn't poorly trained except for the water lore. He is almost 2x EMC, 1.4x HP and 1x Elemental Lore w/24 air ranks and 20 fire ranks.

    Mark

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