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Thread: SMRv2 research

  1. Default

    "+4 for 100 ranks is pretty laughable"

    It depends on how much "+4" reduces your chance of failure. If you can only get hit on a roll of 90 or higher, +4 substantially reduces the amount of times you get f'd. On the other hand, if you can get hit on any roll of 6 or higher, the meaning of +4 is probably closer to your assumption.
    The enhancive king of chicago

  2. #32
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    Updated original post - findings on armor penalty reductions, there appears to be correlation based your total AGI/DEX/INT stats and/or bonuses.

  3. #33

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    Could you check the entries for the rows marked with red? It looks like there are some transcription errors.

    Mark

    Quote Originally Posted by drumpel View Post
    **UPDATE 4/3/19**
    There appears to be correlation between your AGI, DEX and INT bonuses when it comes to reducing your armor's SMRv2 penalty. I though it might be level based (but that just sounds stupid, why penalize younger characters just because of level, so I dismissed this idea) at first or even profession based (the differences I found came across square professions, semis and pures). I'll post a quick snip below in the next table.

    I don't know where the cutoff is at (maybe 50 combined bonus points?), but here's my current findings, usual testing is done. Test dummies do not have any PF, CM, Dodge or Perception ranks and is not encumbered.

    Dark ElfWizardLevel 65AGI: 94 (27)DEX: 91 (30)INT: 88 (24)    
    Base SMRv2 = 116         
    Full Leather         
    Armor Use Ranks0125710203040
    SMRv2 Defense125125116116116116116116116
    Penalty-9-90000000
    Leather Breastplate         
    Armor Use Ranks0125710203040
    SMRv2 Defense152152140140140129129129129
    Penalty-36-36-24-24-13-4-4-4-4
    DwarfRogueLevel 49AGI: 100 (25)DEX: 100 (25)INT: 74 (12)    
    Base SMRv2 = 179         
    Full Leather         
    Armor Use Ranks0125710203040
    SMRv2 Defense194194116116116116116116116
    Penalty-15-150000000
    Leather Breastplate         
    Armor Use Ranks0125710203040
    SMRv2Defense221221221221201201186186186
    Penalty-40-40-42-42-22-22-7-7-7
    DwarfRogueLevel 49AGI: 100 (20)DEX: 100 (25)INT: 74 (12)    
    Base SMRv2 = 179         
    Full Leather         
    Armor Use Ranks0125710203040
    SMRv2Defense194194179179179179179179179
    Penalty-15-150000000
    Leather Breastplate         
    Armor Use Ranks0125710203040
    SMRv2 Defense221221221221201201186186186
    Penalty-42-42-42-42-22-22-7-7-7
    DwarfWizardLevel 27AGI: 92 (16)DEX: 79 (14)INT: 73 (11)    
    Base SMRv2 = 255         
    Full Leather         
    Armor Use Ranks0125710203040
    SMRv2 Defense287287255255255255255255255
    Penalty-15-150000000
    Leather Breastplate         
    Armor Use Ranks0125710203040
    SMRv2 Defense287287287287287287269269269
    Penalty-32-32-32-32-32-32-14-14-14

    I could post more (a lot) data in the above table, but it's very tedious in the forums.
    Dark Elf has a total of 81 bonus between AGI/DEX/INT stats.
    Dwarf (rogue) has a total of 57 bonus between AGI/DEX/INT stats.
    Dwarf (wizard) has a total of 41 bonus between AGI/DEX/INT stats.

    Dark Elf is a wizard (so issue isn't profession based). He gets 3 steps for armor penalty reduction on leather breastplate.
    Rogue dwarf exceeds 50 combined bonus points and gets the extra reduction for armor. He has 3 steps for armor penalty reductions on leather breastplate.
    Wizard dwarf falls below 50 combined bonus points and only gets 2 steps for armor penalty reductions on leather breastplate.

  4. #34
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    Dec 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riltus View Post
    Could you check the entries for the rows marked with red? It looks like there are some transcription errors.

    Mark

    I fixed a few things, but being half asleep I wasn't copying correct data from each highlighted (yes, I even highlighted everything I need to copy out and I still screwed it up) set of data I wanted to transpose here. Plus, putting in all in a table on the forums a pain. I'll sift through it as I get time and make it correct.

    Thanks for checking over things - I figure I'd muck something up.

    With most of my data at home I'll have to probably wait until this evening to fix it all.
    Last edited by drumpel; 04-04-2019 at 11:22 AM.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumpel View Post
    I fixed a few things, but being half asleep I wasn't copying correct data from each highlighted (yes, I even highlighted everything I need to copy out and I still screwed it up) set of data I wanted to transpose here. Plus, putting in all in a table on the forums a pain. I'll sift through it as I get time and make it correct.

    Thanks for checking over things - I figure I'd muck something up.

    With most of my data at home I'll have to probably wait until this evening to fix it all.
    Thanks for this work. I know the tables are a royal PITA.

    To answer a question you had on the officials re: CML armor penalties. They are not affected by stats. There are inherent CML armor action penalties and untrained RT adder penalties. The untrained RT adder penalty is 20 points for each 1 second of untrained RT. The maximum combined penalty with 0 armor ranks in full plate is 250 (240 RT penalty + 10 AP penalty). I'll also note that you need to use armor SKILL not RANKS when calculating the RT adder penalty.

    Here is the link for the AP table:
    http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthrea...85#post1778885

    Mark

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riltus View Post
    Thanks for this work. I know the tables are a royal PITA.

    To answer a question you had on the officials re: CML armor penalties. They are not affected by stats. There are inherent CML armor action penalties and untrained RT adder penalties. The untrained RT adder penalty is 20 points for each 1 second of untrained RT. The maximum combined penalty with 0 armor ranks in full plate is 250 (240 RT penalty + 10 AP penalty). I'll also note that you need to use armor SKILL not RANKS when calculating the RT adder penalty.

    Here is the link for the AP table:
    http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthrea...85#post1778885

    Mark
    Thanks.

    I've got an excel sheet I've been working in and it's full of numbers. Then I'm always adjusting things in it to make up for what I didn't know that I now have to add....huge cluster at times shifting around data and then making corrections as I go.

    First sheet on it has cells that populate based on what character I choose and cells to input data as I've been trying to construct some kind of resemblance of an equation that'll help figure out SMRv2 defense against 917. I've got a lot of IF functions that tie together to construct an overall answer for base SMRv2 based on a lot of things as I figure them out....the few things I really need is to figure out exactly how the stats, stance and caster vs target all get calculated so I can clean up my overall equation and just plug in data to give me my answer.

    Second sheet just holds generic data, name lists and such that populate to the first sheet.

    Then I have 8 or 9 other sheets with all the individual characters I've been putting through the testing - it's very possible as I jumped back and forth between here and my excel sheet that I misclicked and grabbed a few numbers from other characters that I didn't include in my last table and got some mixed up.

    But after testing a handful of characters I noticed those with lower stats didn't get that third armor penalty reduction for heavier armors (scale armor and up) and took longer to get the first initial penalty reduction. My information I posted about is good, unfortunately I wasn't fully awake when copying data over and some numbers aren't jiving, so I need to get it cleaned up when I can.

  7. #37
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    Corrected numbers in the data table posted 4/3/19 - hopefully I got them all fixed.

  8. #38

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    One of the most perplexing parts about this data is the number of armor use ranks at which you see the final breakpoint in terms of the smrv2 penalty. It seems to match the number of ranks required to minimize roundtime rather than the number of ranks required to minimize the maneuver penalty. This is more apparent in your data posted on the official forums that shows smrv2 penalty for characters in full leathers, double leathers, and leather breastplate.

    According to the wiki, the number of ranks required to minimize penalties for fulls, doubles, and leather breastplate, respectively, are:
    - 2, 6, and 10 ranks for roundtime
    - 4, 8, and 13 ranks for maneuver
    The wiki specifically spells out that, at the ranks needed to minimize the maneuver penalty, you should experience the minimum actions penalties for the given armor type.

    So, I expected your data to show reductions at 4, 8, and 13 ranks. It's not showing that. It's very clearly showing breakpoints at 2, 6, and 10 ranks.

    You show over-training benefits kicking in at 52, 56, and 60; this aspect agrees with the wiki. The action penalty is further reduced 50 ranks beyond the training needed to minimize roundtime. It's kind of odd that over-training doesn't kick in at 50 ranks beyond the training needed to minimize the maneuver penalty.

    I'm not missing anything right? This is similarly confusing to everyone else? Are the armor tables for maneuver penalty incorrect or something?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralk View Post
    One of the most perplexing parts about this data is the number of armor use ranks at which you see the final breakpoint in terms of the smrv2 penalty. It seems to match the number of ranks required to minimize roundtime rather than the number of ranks required to minimize the maneuver penalty. This is more apparent in your data posted on the official forums that shows smrv2 penalty for characters in full leathers, double leathers, and leather breastplate.

    According to the wiki, the number of ranks required to minimize penalties for fulls, doubles, and leather breastplate, respectively, are:
    - 2, 6, and 10 ranks for roundtime
    - 4, 8, and 13 ranks for maneuver
    The wiki specifically spells out that, at the ranks needed to minimize the maneuver penalty, you should experience the minimum actions penalties for the given armor type.

    So, I expected your data to show reductions at 4, 8, and 13 ranks. It's not showing that. It's very clearly showing breakpoints at 2, 6, and 10 ranks.

    You show over-training benefits kicking in at 52, 56, and 60; this aspect agrees with the wiki. The action penalty is further reduced 50 ranks beyond the training needed to minimize roundtime. It's kind of odd that over-training doesn't kick in at 50 ranks beyond the training needed to minimize the maneuver penalty.

    I'm not missing anything right? This is similarly confusing to everyone else? Are the armor tables for maneuver penalty incorrect or something?
    I've been curious in working on this more, but the past week or so since I've wanted to the test server has been down. I haven't looked into SMRv2 defense (vs 917) since my last post, so it's been a while.

    I'm too lazy to put anything into a table on the forums here - too much work. I'll just outline things through all the armors I've tested on my rogue.

    Dwarf Rogue, level 49
    Initial base SMRv2 defense determined by:
    AGI: 100
    DEX: 100
    INT: 74
    Zero CM/Dodge/PF/Perception ranks
    Wearing no armor
    Defensive Stance
    No injuries or missing health
    SMRv2 (vs 917) = 179

    All casts in different armors (full leather through Chain Mail) and at different Armor Use ranks, the rogue was always in defensive stance and 100% injury free and full health.
    I'll just post the AU ranks where the breaks in SMRv2 penalties change.

    (AU = Armor Use Ranks)


    Full leather:
    AU = 0 / SMRv2 = 194 / Penalty = -15
    AU = 2 / SMRv2 = 179 / Penalty = 0

    Reinforced Leather:
    AU = 0 / SMRv2 = 218 / Penalty = -39
    AU = 2 / SMRv2 = 199 / Penalty = -20
    AU = 6 / SMRv2 = 184/ Penalty = -5
    AU = 56 / SMRv2 = 183 / Penalty = -4
    AU = 106 / SMRv2 = 182 / Penalty = -3

    Double Leather:
    AU = 0 / SMRv2 = 219 / Penalty = - 40
    AU = 2 / SMRv2 = 200 / Penalty = -21
    AU = 6 / SMRv2 = 185 / Penalty = -6
    AU = 56 / SMRv2 = 184 / Penalty = -5
    AU = 106 / SMRv2 = 183/ Penalty = -4

    Leather Breastplate:
    AU = 0 / SMRv2 = 221 / Penalty = -42
    AU = 6 / SMRv2 = 201 / Penalty = -22
    AU = 10 / SMRv2 = 186/ Penalty = -7
    AU = 60 / SMRv2 = 184 / Penalty = -5
    AU = 110 / SMRv2 = 183 / Penalty = -4

    Cuirbouilli Leather:
    AU = 0 / SMRv2 = 221 / Penalty = -42
    AU = 10 / SMRv2 = 203 / Penalty = -24
    AU = 15 / SMRv2 = 187 / Penalty = -8
    AU = 65 / SMRv2 = 185 / Penalty = -6
    AU = 115 / SMRv2 = 183 / Penalty = -4

    Studded Leather:
    AU = 0 / SMRv2 = 221 / Penalty = -42
    AU = 15 / SMRv2 = 205 / Penalty = -26
    AU = 20 / SMRv2 = 189 / Penalty = -10
    AU = 70 / SMRv2 = 187 / Penalty = -8
    AU = 120 / SMRv2 = 185 / Penalty = -6
    AU = 170 / SMRv2 = 184 / Penalty = -5

    Brigandine:
    AU = 0 / SMRv2 = 221 / Penalty = -42
    AU = 20 / SMRv2 = 207 / Penalty = -28
    AU = 27 / SMRv2 = 190 / Penalty = -11
    AU = 77 / SMRv2 = 188/ Penalty = -9
    AU = 127 / SMRv2 = 186 / Penalty = -7
    AU = 177 / SMRv2 = 184 / Penalty = -5

    Chain Mail
    AU = 0 / SMRv2 = 221 / Penalty = -42
    AU = 27 / SMRv2 = 209 / Penalty = -30
    AU = 35 / SMRv2 = 192 / Penalty = -13
    AU = 85 / SMRv2 = 189 / Penalty = -10
    AU = 135 / SMRv2 = 186 / Penalty = -7

    That's as far as I tested.

  10. #40

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    So, maybe you already noticed this...

    That intermediate break point is kicking in at 20 skill bonus prior to optimal training for RT reduction. This jives with the way armor use is reported to work in general, in that it seems to operate on hindrance in increments of 20 (according to to the wiki) and gets rounded up or down.

    To show this, I took your data, removed the over-training data points, and added the skill bonus in parenthesis after the armor use ranks.

    This pattern doesn't seem to hold for all your characters though.


    Full leather:
    AU = 0 (0)/ SMRv2 = 194 / Penalty = -15
    AU = 2 (10)/ SMRv2 = 179 / Penalty = 0

    Reinforced Leather:
    AU = 0 (0)/ SMRv2 = 218 / Penalty = -39
    AU = 2 (10)/ SMRv2 = 199 / Penalty = -20
    AU = 6 (30)/ SMRv2 = 184/ Penalty = -5

    Double Leather:
    AU = 0 (0)/ SMRv2 = 219 / Penalty = - 40
    AU = 2 (10)/ SMRv2 = 200 / Penalty = -21
    AU = 6 (30)/ SMRv2 = 185 / Penalty = -6

    Leather Breastplate:
    AU = 0 (0)/ SMRv2 = 221 / Penalty = -42
    AU = 6 (30)/ SMRv2 = 201 / Penalty = -22
    AU = 10 (50)/ SMRv2 = 186/ Penalty = -7

    Cuirbouilli Leather:
    AU = 0 (0)/ SMRv2 = 221 / Penalty = -42
    AU = 10 (50)/ SMRv2 = 203 / Penalty = -24
    AU = 15 (70)/ SMRv2 = 187 / Penalty = -8

    Studded Leather:
    AU = 0 (0)/ SMRv2 = 221 / Penalty = -42
    AU = 15 (70)/ SMRv2 = 205 / Penalty = -26
    AU = 20 (90)/ SMRv2 = 189 / Penalty = -10

    Brigandine:
    AU = 0 (0)/ SMRv2 = 221 / Penalty = -42
    AU = 20 (90)/ SMRv2 = 207 / Penalty = -28
    AU = 27 (111)/ SMRv2 = 190 / Penalty = -11

    Chain Mail
    AU = 0 (0)/ SMRv2 = 221 / Penalty = -42
    AU = 27 (111)/ SMRv2 = 209 / Penalty = -30
    AU = 35 (130)/ SMRv2 = 192 / Penalty = -13

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