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Thread: Racial Maneuver Bonus, Encumbrance, Hoarding, and You

  1. Default Racial Maneuver Bonus, Encumbrance, Hoarding, and You

    So I have a heck of a time settling on a character, which is why in my many years of playing off and on I've never brought one past the mid-20's. I think I've settled on a profession (Warrior, though I'm still eyeing Paladin), but settling on a race has been difficult. I don't like leaving treasure behind, so my first inclination is to go Giantman. Then I worry about the huge, slow target I'd be and wonder if I should go for a somewhat smaller, but much faster race. Half-Elf, Dark Elf, but not Halfling or Gnome (I can't stand the idea of becoming encumbered every time I pick up a toothpick.) Half-Krolvin is a less-slow option than Giantman, but I'm not a fan of their penalties. The racism (trading penalty) in the Landing is terrible, with may Influnce and Trading only reducing the 25% penalty to 6.5%. Then there's the Logic penalty. Leveling takes long enough as it is. From an RP perspective, I have ideas for who each of the first three races I've mentioned would be, so that's a non-issue for me.

    Unencumbered Carrying Capacities,Racial Maneuver Bonus(before max Armor Support), Weight to Increase Encum. by 1%:
    RaceCarry Cap (LBS)Man. Bonus1% Encum. Increment (LBS)
    Dark Elf94.365Good2.33
    Forest Gnome58.32Excellent1.44
    Burghal Gnome48.6Best1.2

    With max Armor Support in full Plate, you'd get an extra 35 LBS on top of those numbers. (Giving giants a whopping 180 LBS of encumbered carrying capacity, or one and a half Burghal Gnomes.) Also, even once a Giantman is encumbered, it takes 3.6 LBS of stuff to go up just 1% (and thus lose 1% dodge DS and whatever the penalty is to maneuver defense). This is a pretty significant advantage for a warrior who would need to keep at least some herbs/potions on them for emergency purposes along with the usual multiple weapons and some fluff. I haven't been able to find a table showing when exactly given levels of encumbrance add Round Time, but even without these specifics or maneuver penalty specifics, carrying capacity seems to be superior from the perspective of maximizing hunt lengths and treasure gain vs. survival.

    The differences between Giantman and Dark Elf/Half-Elf (currently my preferred options) are 50/45 LBS of capacity, or a difference of almost 31%/35%. That means a Giantman could stay out hunting 30% longer before having to return due to encumbrance. There's also the obvious strength differences as well. Then again, if the giant gets killed regularly by maneuvers that the Half/Dark elf can easily dodge, that increased carry capacity means very little. Yes, I could play Half-Krolvin and be slightly less slow, but I find the racism of the Landing and the trading penalties to be too annoying. Humans are just plain boring. Why are you playing a fantasy game if you're just going to be what you already are?

    Giantman - 30%/35% more carrying capacity, greater strength, positive Influence bonus (good for war cries & trading), easy dead body dragging, tall (better vs. some maneuvers?), huge HP pool (not very important)
    Half-Krolvin - 18%/23% more carrying capacity, 4 second natural RT reduction, greater strength, not as slow as giantman, easy dead body dragging, huge HP pool (not very important), cold crit padding
    Dark Elf - Good racial maneuver bonus, 4 second natural RT reduction, no Logic penalty, less hated than half-krolvin (except in the EN, but f those guys), slightly better magic defense
    Half-Elf - Good racial maneuver bonus, 4 second natural RT reduction, no Logic penalty, not hated at all (again except the racist EN bastards)

    Giantman - Negative AGI/DEX bonuses/3 second natural RT reduction (consideration for lager/slower weapons), small Logic penalty, larger height seems to mean easier maneuver target for some attacks
    Half-Krolvin - 17% less carrying capacity, Large Logic penalty, hated by many (especially in the Landing), negative Influence bonus
    Dark Elf - 35% less carrying capacity, no Strength bonus, negative Influence bonus, disliked by many (hated by some)
    Half Elf - 30% less carrying capacity, no Strength bonus, disliked in the EN

    A lot of people seem to enjoy the insane killing ability of the lance, which would be slower in the hands of a Giantman without enhancives. I can't say I'd never use a lance, but the idea of anyone not mounted on a horse wielding a 10 foot pointy stick is just ridiculous.

    To bring this (finally) to my questions for those who have played any of these races to the late/end game:
    -How much impact does the Racial Maneuver Bonus have? Has anyone enumerated a close approximation? (I.E. Good vs. Average is like having 30 more ranks of Combat Maneuvers)

    -Does the height of Giantman make them a bigger target for some maneuvers, and if so, do they also defend better against other maneuvers because of their size?

    -Would it be better to be able to carry more without being encumbered and thus have no dodge/maneuver penalties (even with only Average maneuver chances), or to have better dodge/maneuver chances with much less carrying capacity? (Better in this case meaning average hunt survival vs. maximizing hunt length and treasure gain. As I said above, mechanically and mathematically carrying capacity seems to be better, but there are too many unknowns for me to be sure as I've never made it to the late/end game.)

    -For any late/end-game Half-Krolvin players out there, how much slower has leveling been? Do you end up using a different character to sell stuff in order to avoid the penalty in areas where Krolvin are hated?

    So yeah. That's my dilemma. Currently leaning towards Giantman (I have a giant warrior almost to 10). Otherwise Half-Elf seems like the next best option (Although 45 LBS less capacity seems sucky.)

    Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to read all of this.

  2. #2


    Dont pick a race based on how easy you will be to drag when you die.

    Sounds like you want to be giantman to me, based on all your analysis on treasure carrying. If you choose anything besides giantman, you are always going to be thinking "I could have carried that box..." Just go giantman
    The enhancive king of chicago

  3. #3
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    That logic negative to half-krolvins is a deal breaker for a lot of people.

    As far as hated for trade purposes and such, if you are premium, just use FWI.
    Last edited by Gelston; 08-05-2018 at 06:17 PM.
    Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

  4. Default

    @gilchristr: By dragging I actually meant how easy it is to drag other people. I like being able to help in that way, but it was listed towards the end because it's not much of a factor for me. More of a nice to have vs. a necessity. I am leaning towards Giantman, but I'm trying to figure out the survival chances between Average and Good maneuver bonus races. If the difference is actually minimal given the same full end-game training (I.E. dying/cutting hunt short 1 out of 50 hunts as a Giantman vs 1 out of 80, the 30% more carrying capacity/hunt length outweighs the increased risk (2% chance vs 1.25% chance)). If the death/cutting hunt short chance is more like 10% more likely as a Giantman vs. a Half-Elf, that level of frustration and time-consuming setbacks might not be worth it.

    @Gelston: Given the years it takes to cap, adding several months may or may not be a big deal, but then there's the post-cap grind to consider. Also, I completely forgot about FWI as I wasn't Premium back in the day. I am now so that's a great reminder.

  5. Default

    Enhancives make up a lot of stat deficiencies. And you could also use a capped giantman alt character solely as a pack mule, have it follow you to whereever you are hunting, park it somewhere, sanct or log it off, then when you get full log him back on and so forth. Or invest in a weight reducing backpack, Simucoin encumberance reducers, Disk imbeds etc.

  6. #6


    If you're rolling a warrior, you probably shouldn't be worrying too much about defending against maneuvers. At 2x CM, and (eventually) 3x PF, wearing full plate, maneuvers are the least of your worries.

    Also keep in mind that the maneuver bonus for smaller races is in many cases negated by size penalties for a good number of maneuvers. Tackle, charge, shield bash, shield charge among others all factor in size. Most of my characters are halflings or gnomes and I'm always getting my ass kicked by shield bash, tackle, etc.

    I prefer elves for warriors, but pretty much anything will work.

    And yeah, get some strength enhancives and a disk and you'll be just dandy. Or alternatively, roll yourself up a wizard, cast the air version of 520, cast yourself up a fat disk and you can carry the kitchen sink if you want.
    Last edited by khorpulent; 08-10-2018 at 10:47 AM.

  7. #7


    I believe the racial maneuver bonuses referred to in the table are for SMR 1.0/2.0 only and don't apply to CMAN's/SMAN's like shield bash, tackle, etc.

    So for smaller races, yeah they're almost always going to have a negative modifier vs CMAN's/SMAN's that take racial size into account ... meaning its not overcoming the bonus listed in the table because it doesn't apply. Its just a straight up size based penalty.
    Last edited by Aluvius; 08-12-2018 at 12:17 PM.

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