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Thread: Here I am again... biting the dust ALL the time.

  1. Default

    Yeah, but 240 is pretty damn mana intensive. You could use it, but you won't be hunting long. That's one reason I'm a fan of 140 + open handed/offensive channeling. You get +40 to every shot (or at least every shot that doesn't get warded) and only have to spend 40 mana every 90 seconds instead of every 30. Or if putting the runestaff away is too risky, even just runestaff + offensive is +20. There's some risk involved, but hey, if you had 50+ ranks of transformation lore, you'd have an extra use of 1150 to bail yourself out.

    As far as spell aiming goes, if you take all those points from 2x SA and put them instead into empath circle, the difference usually only works out to be about 9 or 10 CS (at cap at least, assuming you'd stay above +20 empath ranks with either training path...probably works out about the same at 90). So while an extra 10 CS is pretty nice, the difference isn't as big as some folks make it out to be. I trained my empath in spell aiming all the way up through cap and still use bolts with some frequency, but mostly just because it's more interesting than casting Wither at everything.

    That being said, Wither is almost always going to be a better choice than bolts. The only exception might be using 1110 to conserve mana against creatures that won't immediately kick your ass if you don't kill them quickly. Even if you only get 3 warding cycles from 1110 (note: you need 20 telepathy ranks for this, I noticed you only had 15), you can hit a creature with 1110 and let the warding cycles kill it while you move on to other things. I've actually started using 1110 in orc warcamps lately -- I'll hit an orc with one shot of 1110 and just go to another part of the camp to cast at another orc. When I come back later, the orc will usually be dead. Of course, I have 100 telepathy ranks, so I get 6 warding cycles. The problem with bolts, though, is that you gotta deal with both DS and EBP, and there's plenty of shit that I can't even touch with bolts even as a halfling (though with 1110 all you have to do is connect!)

    Edit: I just noticed your DEX bonus is 4. You should probably not be bolting.
    Last edited by khorpulent; 02-26-2018 at 04:35 PM.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by khorpulent View Post
    Yeah, but 240 is pretty damn mana intensive. You could use it, but you won't be hunting long..
    That's subjective. If you spend 40 mana to kill something with one cast of wither instead of two casts of wither, and you can find 3-4 targets in those 30 seconds, you will actually spend less mana. Just breaking it down to the smallest component. The real power is two-fold:

    1. Your CS is substantially higher, which means higher warding margin, which means more damage - reducing the number of times you have to cast attack spells.
    2. It casts the spell twice at the same target using the same casting mechanics (i.e. channel vs cast) without additional mana or RT - reducing the number of times you have to cast attack spells.

    So if you kill targets with 2-3 casts of Wither, that's 30-45 mana. Using 240 will reduce that cost by 15 (and cut your RT by 3 seconds). If you can find 3-4 targets to kill within 30 seconds duration (and since you're killing faster - much easier to fit in 3-4 targets), it's a saving of 45-60 mana. If you can't find 3-4 targets within 30 seconds, then you're only losing 15-20 mana.

    On top of this, if the empath is trained for GOS with good stamina (possibly a regen enhancive or two) and blessings lore - mana won't be a problem.

    You don't need to keep 240 running constantly. It only needs to be activated when you have targets to kill.
    Last edited by Maerit; 02-26-2018 at 06:10 PM.

  3. Default

    Sure, if all the right conditions come together, 240 can save you mana. But just as often you'll end up getting put in RT from some maneuver and wasting half of the 30-second cast, or you'll get a high roll on the first shot and won't need the second, or you'll fumble or get blocked by slippery mind or something. I use 240 fairly often, but mostly in warcamps when I want to run in, kill a dozen creatures in the span of 2 minutes to get fried, and go rest. If I'm trying to hunt for more sustained periods, I tend to be more judicious in my use of 240. So yeah, if you're just trying to get fried and there are pretty good swarms, 240 can be effective, especially if you're up-hunting a bit. But if you're trying to cull 27 creatures or something, you're generally not going to go the distance blasting everything with 240.

    Part of the problem with 240 is that 3-second setup time. Three seconds is often just long enough to get hit by a maneuver or ewave or something, which can effectively waste your cast of 240. I often find I get better results against a room full of creatures using 1120 + 1117 + 1115/1106. But that assumes you actually can hit everything with that first cast of 1120.

    Your calculations are also assuming that 1115 is never killing the creature on the first shot. If your cast of 1115 kills the creature on the first shot, there's no re-cast from the slayer and consequently no mana saved.

    But you're right about using sigil of power. With 3x PF and 65 blessing ranks at cap and no enhancives, an empath can generate an average of something like 20-40 extra mana per minute, depending on what sigils you keep active (assuming you remember to pop your muscles and use 1107 ever 5 minutes). With enhancives you can get that closer to 75+. My empath gets 145 stamina per pulse with enhancives, so I can use sigil of power two or three times a minute. I can still run out of mana if I get carried away with 240, but usually only in the most lively warcamps.

  4. #24
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    240 is the most broken spell in my opinion. How that ever got past QC and "balancing" I will never know. It is just so stupidly powerful.

    To your training, I would make it look more like this:

    Armor Use..........................| 8 ranks
    Physical Fitness...................| 2x/level
    Arcane Symbols.....................| 1x/level
    Magic Item Use.....................| 1x/level
    Harness Power......................| 2x/level
    Spirit Mana Control................| 1x/level
    Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| delete
    Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 1x/level and move to 2x after cap
    Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 1x/level or wait until after cap to focus
    Mental Lore - Telepathy............| delete
    Survival...........................| delete
    Perception.........................| 1x/level
    Climbing...........................| 130 35
    Swimming...........................| 140 40
    First Aid..........................| 1x/level

    Spell Lists
    Major Spiritual....................| 40

    Spell Lists
    Minor Spiritual....................| 40

    Spell Lists
    Empath.............................| 122

    This focuses on getting 240 up and working to full effect.

  5. Default

    If you're in Sunfist, you probably wouldn't want to ditch that blessing lore. If your'e not, 1x summoning lore (at a minimum) for the benefits to 1115. That extra damage cycle makes a huge difference. And if you're sticking with spell aiming, you'll want either 5 or 20 telepathy ranks for the extra warding cycles from 1110.

    Harness power is a matter of preference, but most folks seem to only do 1x pre-cap. I'm past 2x cap at this point and still only have 170 ranks of HP. At cap, 100 ranks of HP is the equivalent of 25 spell ranks.

    MMC is cheap enough that you might as well be 1x in it too.

    Survival is another matter of personal preference. I'm 1x in survival and FA for skinning, and also because I travel back and forth from WL to IMT a lot.

    And I've always found manipulation lore a waste, especially since it interferes with 1117. Better to put the points into transformation. I'm currently at 100 telepathy/51 transformation and 137 summoning/65 blessing.
    Last edited by khorpulent; 02-28-2018 at 12:48 PM.

  6. #26

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    Have you looked at the combo of 1107 and sigil of power with Sunfist? Check that out if you go Sunfist. It may impact your HP and lore training

  7. Default

    Appreciate all the different ideas. Also - 240 - YES - literally used it for the first time after the suggestions here, and it helps in the right situation. I am not in Sunfist, but am strongly considering it... I just don't know if I'm ready to do a whole new society thing right now. Wondering what people think of the following training path if I can't bolt (which I can't). I basically open with 1115, use Sympathy as needed for crowd control, 1106...
    I did start hunting Nelemar which is generally easier to fry in than OTF, but I continue to die a lot. Whenever I'm put into RT it's like a done deal.


    Any additional thoughts would be appreciated before I use a fixskills..also my train is 92 now.

    Skill Name Goals
    Armor Use..........................| 8
    Physical Fitness...................| 282
    Arcane Symbols.....................| 93
    Magic Item Use.....................| 93
    Spell Aiming.......................| 0
    Harness Power......................| 138
    Mental Mana Control................| 93
    Spirit Mana Control................| 93
    Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 90
    Mental Lore - Telepathy............| 40
    Mental Lore - Transformation.......| 57
    Survival...........................| 30
    Perception.........................| 93
    Climbing...........................| 135
    Swimming...........................| 65
    First Aid..........................| 93

    Spell Lists
    Major Spiritual....................| 40

    Spell Lists
    Minor Spiritual....................| 40

    Spell Lists
    Empath.............................| 120
    Last edited by undernolights; 03-15-2018 at 06:45 PM.

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