unbalance flares vs grapple flares

[gilchristr]

Somebody asked me today which of these are better for UAC, and I said grapple is better.

But later I looked at the critical tables, and assuming both flares have an equal chance for an equal rank on the table (I would be surprised if this is not true), it looks like they really are different:
- a quick scan of the far right columns shows that unbalance basically always causes a minor even on rank 1 result, whereas grapple typically does not cause a minor unless a rank 2 or 3 is reached depending on hit location;
- unbalance seems to have more knockdowns, several rank 1 positions on the unbalance table have knockdowns (indicated by the K). Grapple typically has to have a higher rank for the same location to get a knockdown. You can see this for instance on the leg locations where grapple has the messaging "target is NOT knocked down" even on a rank 2 grapple to the leg, whereas a rank 2 unbalance to the leg does score a knockdown. I'd definitely give knockdowns to unbalance (makes sense given that it is called "unbalance".
- grapple wins on raw bonus damage from the critical. This seems like a poor area to win on though as you choose between these flares for setups, not direct kills whether by critical or raw damage.
- grapple's only real tactical advantage seems to be more chance to stun. However, seems like a lot of opponents are unstunable or shake off stuns, certainly more than opponents immune to knockdown.


https://gswiki.play.net/Grapple_critical_table
https://gswiki.play.net/Unbalance_critical_table


In summary, if the target can be stunned, especially if the target can't simply later shake off stuns, then grapple may be a better choice. But this seems to be too narrow of a niche.

I would say the apparent ease of knockdowns on low ranks for the unbalance flares makes it a better flare for UAC more often not. A knockdown is a nice setup to finish the fight. Stuns are good for that purpose too, but not as good as knockdowns for that purpose because the grant less modifiers to the next attack if the target is even vulnerable to stuns. Plus a target that shakes off its stuns does not lose its action, whereas a knockdown target standing up does lose its action. Knockdowns can also prevent a critter from performing a maneuver attack that could kill you (either directly or by making him waste his action to stand up), whereas a rank 1 stun may not especially if the critter just shakes it off. I doubt the extra raw bonus damage from grapple will have much of a tactical effect because I think UACer's will usually end a fight from tier up critical well before the blood loss would matter.

[Riltus]

Somebody asked me today which of these are better for UAC, and I said grapple is better.

But later I looked at the critical tables, and assuming both flares have an equal chance for an equal rank on the table (I would be surprised if this is not true), it looks like they really are different:
- a quick scan of the far right columns shows that unbalance basically always causes a minor even on rank 1 result, whereas grapple typically does not cause a minor unless a rank 2 or 3 is reached depending on hit location;
- unbalance seems to have more knockdowns, several rank 1 positions on the unbalance table have knockdowns (indicated by the K). Grapple typically has to have a higher rank for the same location to get a knockdown. You can see this for instance on the leg locations where grapple has the messaging "target is NOT knocked down" even on a rank 2 grapple to the leg, whereas a rank 2 unbalance to the leg does score a knockdown. I'd definitely give knockdowns to unbalance (makes sense given that it is called "unbalance".
- grapple wins on raw bonus damage from the critical. This seems like a poor area to win on though as you choose between these flares for setups, not direct kills whether by critical or raw damage.
- grapple's only real tactical advantage seems to be more chance to stun. However, seems like a lot of opponents are unstunable or shake off stuns, certainly more than opponents immune to knockdown.


https://gswiki.play.net/Grapple_critical_table
https://gswiki.play.net/Unbalance_critical_table


In summary, if the target can be stunned, especially if the target can't simply later shake off stuns, then grapple may be a better choice. But this seems to be too narrow of a niche.

I would say the apparent ease of knockdowns on low ranks for the unbalance flares makes it a better flare for UAC more often not. A knockdown is a nice setup to finish the fight. Stuns are good for that purpose too, but not as good as knockdowns for that purpose because the grant less modifiers to the next attack if the target is even vulnerable to stuns. Plus a target that shakes off its stuns does not lose its action, whereas a knockdown target standing up does lose its action. Knockdowns can also prevent a critter from performing a maneuver attack that could kill you (either directly or by making him waste his action to stand up), whereas a rank 1 stun may not especially if the critter just shakes it off. I doubt the extra raw bonus damage from grapple will have much of a tactical effect because I think UACer's will usually end a fight from tier up critical well before the blood loss would matter.

I've added grapple knockdowns to the status effects column on the wiki (there are still 3 that have eluded me).

The unbalance damage values on the wiki are from AS-based sources only. Unbalance FLARE damage will be virtually identical to that shown in the grapple table. Each critical damage type has two sets of damages. One applies to AS-based attacks only and the other for pretty much everything else (CS attacks, flares etc.) AS crit damage has a fixed, non-variable value associated with each damage type, critical rank and body location. Flare crit damage is based solely on the critical rank irrespective of the damage type and hit location. There is some damage variability for ranks 7, 8 and 9 depending on the crit type.

Up to critical rank 6, flare damage follows this pattern (crit rank * 5). Unless there is natural padding or some other outside influence a rank 5 crit from a flare of any damage type will result in 25 damage for any body location struck. It could be a disintegration rank 5 hand crit or an unbalance rank 5 chest crit. They will both have 25 damage.

Take a look at the disintegration critical table where I've included both AS-based and non AS values in the damage column.
https://gswiki.play.net/Disintegration_critical_table

All else being equal, unbalance flares might be slightly better than grapple flares but the tipping point toward grapple for many players is the number of creatures that are immune to unbalance.

Mark