Russia Investigation Heating Up

[cwolff]

I'm not sure the four of us agree on the definition of evidence.

This theme is common in right wing circles. Theres no evidence, I haven't seen a smoking gun, Mueller hasn't shown any proof etc...

The investigation is happening now in real time. There should be zero expectation that the investigators share with us. Thats not how it works.

[cwolff]

The only reason I don't want Trump impeached is because of Pence.

An impeachment would be as equally entertaining as the election, though.

Pence is doing a fine job of staying clear of all this. Has any of it touched him yet? I hope this investigation gets both of them gone but that's wishful thinking on my part

[RichardCranium]

This theme is common in right wing circles. Theres no evidence, I haven't seen a smoking gun, Mueller hasn't shown any proof etc...

The investigation is happening now in real time. There should be zero expectation that the investigators share with us. Thats not how it works.

I agree with this. And if/when it happens then it happens. But so far all of the charges, indictments, even the reason given for the raid don't lead me to believe without a shadow of a doubt that they have evidence of collusion.

[RichardCranium]

Pence is doing a fine job of staying clear of all this. Has any of it touched him yet? I hope this investigation gets both of them gone but that's wishful thinking on my part

No. I just disagree with his political views in a very big way.

[Methais]

Gasp! Why would anybody describe poor, innocent Milo as a nazi?



Could it be -- gasp! -- his active courting of nazis, and Breitbart's targeted content appealing to them? No!

And yes, your inevitable response is predictable. "Bb-b-b-b-but Buzzfeed! What do you mean, Breitbart is 10x worse than Buzzfeed? What do you mean, I didn't watch the video!? Whine!"

Do you think Milo's black husband thinks Milo is a Nazi? Do you think Milo wants to gas chamber himself for being a gay jew?

https://youtu.be/PTxSAjXpnqo?t=3m10s

[cwolff]

I agree with this. And if/when it happens then it happens. But so far all of the charges, indictments, even the reason given for the raid don't lead me to believe without a shadow of a doubt that they have evidence of collusion.

Ya, I get that. Its perfectly reasonable too.

[Wrathbringer]

Pence is doing a fine job of staying clear of all this. Has any of it touched him yet? I hope this investigation gets both of them gone but that's me being extremely butthurt on my part

ftfy

[time4fun]

No. I just disagree with his political views in a very big way.

He's a scary man in a lot of ways.

But he fundamentally believes in the rule of law and our constitutional democracy. He's also not dangerously impulsive, nor treasonous, I don't believe.

Whatever damage he would do would be far easier to repair than the damage Trump is doing.

Though I would strongly prefer not to put the country through a full impeachment process. We've been through enough. I would prefer a Nixon-style resignation.

[time4fun]

I agree with this. And if/when it happens then it happens. But so far all of the charges, indictments, even the reason given for the raid don't lead me to believe without a shadow of a doubt that they have evidence of collusion.

Do you mean evidence, or do you mean proof? People have been throwing that word around a lot the last year - "evidence"- when they mean "proof".

There is a glut of- even just publicly available- evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. As wolf pointed out- there is an actual email which not only included Russia acknowledging that they were trying to get Trump elected, but also showed Trump Jr welcoming their help. The Campaign chair and deputy campaign chair were in regular contact with Russian intelligence during the campaign- to put it mildly that's not normal. (They also weren't the only members of the campaign in touch with Russian government officials) The Russian government DID supply significant aid to the Campaign, and the Trump campaign DID try to give Russia what it most wanted- apparently asking nothing in return.

And the whole time the campaign repeatedly lied to the media, to Congress, and to Federal Investigators about their contact with Russia. Not only that, but they worked tirelessly to convince the country that Russia wasn't actively meddling in the election on their behalf even after being informed that they were by both the US Intelligence agencies AND representatives of the Russian government.

Is that proof of collusion? No. But is it evidence of collusion?

Indisputably

Put another way- probable cause isn't proof of criminal behavior, and indictments aren't proof of criminal behavior.

But it would be inaccurate to say that merely demonstrating probable cause or just issuing an indictment means there's no evidence of a crime. On the contrary, those are proof of the existence of evidence.

So are Federal investigations.

[Fortybox]

We don't have to agree. Probable cause and admittable evidence aren't determined by sheer opinion. They're determined through the law.

Serious Trump appointees, career Prosecutors, and Federal Judges already clearly agreed that there was enough evidence to justify high burden of proof warrants (some that are only granted in exceptional circumstances) and aggressive plea deals

Yeah right. If you don’t agree with time4dumb you’re intellectually inferior.