On the Death Penalty

For 22 years, Ledell Lee maintained that he had been wrongly convicted of murder.

“My dying words will always be, as it has been, ‘I am an innocent man,’” he told the BBC in an interview published on April 19, 2017 — the day before officials in Arkansas administered the lethal injection.

Four years later, lawyers affiliated with the Innocence Project and the American Civil Liberties Union say DNA testing has revealed that genetic material on the murder weapon — which was never previously tested — in fact belongs to another man...

...Along with providing new DNA results, Ms. Young’s petition pushed the city of Jacksonville to compare fingerprints from the crime scene to a state and national fingerprint database for the first time. It has long been established that Mr. Lee’s fingerprints did not match any of those at the scene.

Happen to him it can happen to anyone.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/07/u...-arkansas.html

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Originally Posted by Skeletor

Happen to him it can happen to anyone.

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While often quoted, this is flatly false. Police didn't randomly go out and locate this guy and decide to falsely prosecute him. A jury convicted him and sentenced him to death. That takes a pretty good bit of evidence and a lot of work on the part of the prosecution along with a piss poor defense attorney. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal and not reason to make or change law or policy.

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Originally Posted by ~Rocktar~

While often quoted, this is flatly false. Police didn't randomly go out and locate this guy and decide to falsely prosecute him. A jury convicted him and sentenced him to death. That takes a pretty good bit of evidence and a lot of work on the part of the prosecution along with a piss poor defense attorney. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal and not reason to make or change law or policy.

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Saying that something as broad as what you just disagreed with is "flatly false" is just as dumb as making a claim that all people from a country are ____, or all people of a certain color are _____.

You're close-minded, and the evidence is in how you speak.

Convictions and sentencings like this are commonplace and are often the result of willful and intentional race soldiering within our policing and judicial systems. IE: Systemic racism. It happens, often. It doesn't mean that all cops are bad, or race soldiers, and it doesn't mean that our judicial system doesn't work as intended sometimes. But these flaws in both are real, and pervasive.

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Originally Posted by ~Rocktar~

While often quoted, this is flatly false. Police didn't randomly go out and locate this guy and decide to falsely prosecute him. A jury convicted him and sentenced him to death. That takes a pretty good bit of evidence and a lot of work on the part of the prosecution along with a piss poor defense attorney. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal and not reason to make or change law or policy.

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How the heck is DNA evidence "anecdotal". There wasn't a single fingerprint on the murder weapon (at least not his). What did he do use The Force to levitate the murder weapon?

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Originally Posted by Skeletor

How the heck is DNA evidence "anecdotal". There wasn't a single fingerprint on the murder weapon (at least not his). What did he do use The Force to levitate the murder weapon?

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https://media.giphy.com/media/OMZRxGyZZ6fGo/giphy.gif

I respectfully disagree. If anything our current polarized political environment and what you could either call populous or mob rule, depending on how charitable you are feeling, makes it easy to imagine a set of circumstances where a person would be wrongly convicted of a capital crime.

In the last year I have seen people involved in protests, counter protest or defending themselves from rioters (depending on your perspective) accused of murder, attempted murder, and insurrection, both in washington state and washington d.c.

Just as in past examples of racially motivated unjust prosecution, it remains only possible to make amends for such an injustice so long as the person is still alive. I see no reason our fallible justice system or government needs the final sanction of execution. The work of groups like the innocence project make it clear just how often the system gets things wrong.

Moreover, I think this is a position that people on both sides of the current political spectrum should see as reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Bhaalizmo

Convictions and sentencings like this are commonplace

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It's really not. Hundreds of thousands of people are convicted of crimes each year and sent to prison, how many are actually innocent?

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Originally Posted by Bhaalizmo

IE: Systemic racism.

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Oh right, the ever present yet never identified "systemic racism." I don't suppose RATM gave you any actual examples of "systemic racism" happening today that you can point to?

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Originally Posted by Bhaalizmo

Saying that something as broad as what you just disagreed with is "flatly false" is just as dumb as making a claim that all people from a country are ____, or all people of a certain color are _____.

You're close-minded, and the evidence is in how you speak.

Convictions and sentencings like this are commonplace and are often the result of willful and intentional race soldiering within our policing and judicial systems. IE: Systemic racism. It happens, often. It doesn't mean that all cops are bad, or race soldiers, and it doesn't mean that our judicial system doesn't work as intended sometimes. But these flaws in both are real, and pervasive.

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You are so full of shit. They aren't that common at all which is why they are such big news when you do see them. Systemic racism is a myth that you racist assholes perpetuate to maintain power by telling a whole race of people that they are so pathetic that they need the white Leftist/Progressive/Liberal's help to live much less succeed. The percentages of cases like this, even if we take a very generous view, are greatly less than 1% of all murder convictions and the conviction rate for murder is very low based on number of prosecutions. So yeah, shit happens, again, the "it can happen to anyone" is a flat out lie and anecdotal evidence is anecdotal and no reason to change law or policy.

Now fuck off.

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Originally Posted by Skeletor

How the heck is DNA evidence "anecdotal". There wasn't a single fingerprint on the murder weapon (at least not his). What did he do use The Force to levitate the murder weapon?

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One example out of a large pool of convictions is anecdotal. That is why, while it's a bad thing, it is no basis for changing policy or law.

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Originally Posted by Menos

I respectfully disagree. If anything our current polarized political environment and what you could either call populous or mob rule, depending on how charitable you are feeling, makes it easy to imagine a set of circumstances where a person would be wrongly convicted of a capital crime.

In the last year I have seen people involved in protests, counter protest or defending themselves from rioters (depending on your perspective) accused of murder, attempted murder, and insurrection, both in washington state and washington d.c.

Just as in past examples of racially motivated unjust prosecution, it remains only possible to make amends for such an injustice so long as the person is still alive. I see no reason our fallible justice system or government needs the final sanction of execution. The work of groups like the innocence project make it clear just how often the system gets things wrong.

Moreover, I think this is a position that people on both sides of the current political spectrum should see as reasonable.

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It is unreasonable to support criminal shitbags who have been convicted of heinous crimes at the expense of people for longer than necessary to put them to death. That is a double crime to society.

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Originally Posted by Skeletor

Four years later, lawyers affiliated with the Innocence Project and the American Civil Liberties Union say DNA testing has revealed that genetic material on the murder weapon — which was never previously tested — in fact belongs to another man...

...Along with providing new DNA results, Ms. Young’s petition pushed the city of Jacksonville to compare fingerprints from the crime scene to a state and national fingerprint database for the first time. It has long been established that Mr. Lee’s fingerprints did not match any of those at the scene.

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What's the protocol for when that happens? resignations? punitive damages? counselling for the jurors?

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Originally Posted by Winter

What's the protocol for when that happens? resignations? punitive damages? counselling for the jurors?

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I can't imagine any of that happens unless there is proof that someone knew for a fact the person was innocent (like they suppressed evidence or knew who the real killer was or something) and yet went along with it anyways.

Otherwise it's going to have a very chilling effect on our justice system that if an honest mistake happens (and lets face it barring any evidence suggesting otherwise this was a mistake) then everyone involved in the trial would receive repercussions.

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Originally Posted by Tgo01

It's really not. Hundreds of thousands of people are convicted of crimes each year and sent to prison, how many are actually innocent?

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Here's just one example.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...on/7122295002/

How many more stories like this are swept under the rug?

Do you think this only happened just this one time?

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Originally Posted by Tgo01

Oh right, the ever present yet never identified "systemic racism." I don't suppose RATM gave you any actual examples of "systemic racism" happening today that you can point to?

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I'm sorry, I couldn't understand what you were mumbling it sounds like you have a mouthful of hate and bullshit.

Here you go, this article was written for you.

https://news.stanford.edu/2020/06/09...erican-racism/

The issue is more about the mentality of prosecutors. Some of them care far more about conviction success than they do about putting away the right guy. There has been cases where they KNOW the person they are trying to convict didn't do the crime but they go at it anyways.

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Originally Posted by Bhaalizmo

I'm sorry, I couldn't understand what you were mumbling it sounds like you have a mouthful of hate and bullshit.

Here you go, this article was written for you.

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A simple: "Nope! I'm a complete retard and don't understand the meaning of the words I use!" would have sufficed.

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Originally Posted by Gelston

The issue is more about the mentality of prosecutors. Some of them care far more about conviction success than they do about putting away the right guy. There has been cases where they KNOW the person they are trying to convict didn't do the crime but they go at it anyways.

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100% agree with this perspective. Prosecutors caught conducting business in that way should face maximum penalties.

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Originally Posted by Shaps

100% agree with this perspective. Prosecutors caught conducting business in that way should face maximum penalties.

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Or be elected vice president.

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Originally Posted by Tgo01

Or be elected vice president.

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Yea that bitch should have been disbarred, and never achieved what she did for the crap she was pulling on people in the system.

It's actually a stain on our electoral process that she was elevated to such a position. Especially when you had others like Tulsi Gabbard or Andrew Yang (who's policies I'm 50/50 on, but I can actually respect the work he's done and his apparently genuine concerns) to select from.

The percentage of people wrongly convicted of serious crimes is very small. We must of course work to ensure that the percentage is at close to zero as possible, but it is idiotic to change punishments for crimes over the issue.

The death penalty ensures that those who commit very serious crimes do not cause further harm to society. Personally I also believe it is also a deterrent to committing capital crimes, but even if I happen to be wrong on this point (and I am not), I am still strongly in favor of the death penalty. Society must not tolerate certain crimes and must put to death those who commit them. The fact that there are a very very few people wrongly convicted of capital crimes must not alter this approach. The damage to society will be much greater by removing capital punishment altogether.

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Originally Posted by Candor

The percentage of people wrongly convicted of serious crimes is very small. We must of course work to ensure that the percentage is at close to zero as possible, but it is idiotic to change punishments for crimes over the issue.

The death penalty ensures that those who commit very serious crimes do not cause further harm to society. Personally I also believe it is also a deterrent to committing capital crimes, but even if I happen to be wrong on this point (and I am not), I am still strongly in favor of the death penalty. Society must not tolerate certain crimes and must put to death those who commit them. The fact that there are a very very few people wrongly convicted of capital crimes must not alter this approach. The damage to society will be much greater by removing capital punishment altogether.

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Try being that one guy strapped to a gurney, an IV haphazardly shoved in your arm with less than a minute left before they forcibly and painfully stop your healthy heart.

"Well, I was watching Netflix and downing some leftover pizza that night and now... I'm here. Hope my kids are going to be OK."

It's fucked up.

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Originally Posted by Skeletor

Try being that one guy strapped to a gurney, an IV haphazardly shoved in your arm with less than a minute left before they forcibly and painfully stop your healthy heart.

"Well, I was watching Netflix and downing some leftover pizza that night and now... I'm here. Hope my kids are going to be OK."

It's fucked up.

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Again, that's not how this shit happens. It's a nice fantasy, it's not even remotely close to reality so stop trying to sell this pity party bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Candor

The percentage of people wrongly convicted of serious crimes is very small. We must of course work to ensure that the percentage is at close to zero as possible, but it is idiotic to change punishments for crimes over the issue.

The death penalty ensures that those who commit very serious crimes do not cause further harm to society. Personally I also believe it is also a deterrent to committing capital crimes, but even if I happen to be wrong on this point (and I am not), I am still strongly in favor of the death penalty. Society must not tolerate certain crimes and must put to death those who commit them. The fact that there are a very very few people wrongly convicted of capital crimes must not alter this approach. The damage to society will be much greater by removing capital punishment altogether.

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1 person wrongly sentenced to death is 1 too many. Imagine it was you. Imagine it was a loved one.

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Originally Posted by Candor

The percentage of people wrongly convicted of serious crimes is very small. We must of course work to ensure that the percentage is at close to zero as possible, but it is idiotic to change punishments for crimes over the issue.

The death penalty ensures that those who commit very serious crimes do not cause further harm to society. Personally I also believe it is also a deterrent to committing capital crimes, but even if I happen to be wrong on this point (and I am not), I am still strongly in favor of the death penalty. Society must not tolerate certain crimes and must put to death those who commit them. The fact that there are a very very few people wrongly convicted of capital crimes must not alter this approach. The damage to society will be much greater by removing capital punishment altogether.

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I'm highly suspect of the death penalty doing anything to prevent murder. In most cases a person is in reptilian brain mode when they murder someone and the penalty that they may face doesn't even cross their mind.

Life in prison, to me, is a much harsher punishment than the death penalty anyway.

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Originally Posted by Neveragain

I'm highly suspect of the death penalty doing anything to prevent murder. In most cases a person is in reptilian brain mode when they murder someone and the penalty that they may face doesn't even cross their mind.

Life in prison, to me, is a much harsher punishment than the death penalty anyway.

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That's why I'm for us going back to 1850ish or so... Everyone has guns, but semi-decent principles... Treat someone wrong... duel! Treat someone badly... duel!

Child molesters should be killed even today... no excuses.

It happens more than you think, a lot of these prosecutors (and many lawyers from my personal experience) have sociopathic tendencies. They don't care as long as they put another feather in their resume.

Dallas County Prosecutor Disbarred for Withholding Evidence After 2 Men Cleared of Capital Murder Charges.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/da...arges/2632947/

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Originally Posted by Skeletor

It happens more than you think, a lot of these prosecutors (and many lawyers from my personal experience) have sociopathic tendencies. They don't care as long as they put another feather in their resume.

Dallas County Prosecutor Disbarred for Withholding Evidence After 2 Men Cleared of Capital Murder Charges.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/da...arges/2632947/

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Disbarment should be the least of their punishment. They should be tried for interfering with a police investigation, malfeasance in office and honestly, violation of civil rights. How someone can sleep at night knowing for a fact they put people in prison for no reason and the actual offender is still out there I have no idea.

I'd hope they would sue that person directly too.

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Originally Posted by Shaps

Child molesters should be killed even today... no excuses.

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I feel the same way, especially if multiple children are involved. The objection is that such a penalty would result in more dead children (so they cannot testify). I don't seem to have a good response to that one.

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Originally Posted by Candor

I feel the same way, especially if multiple children are involved. The objection is that such a penalty would result in more dead children (so they cannot testify). I don't seem to have a good response to that one.

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That's a good point. Honestly not sure how to reconcile that either. At least they get taken care of in prison for the most part.