Better start planning

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/03/weal...iden-plan.html

Potential 61% death tax.

Pay taxes your whole life - die - then they take the rest. Fucking sickening.

This doesn't even affect me, but no one should have their families life savings decimated like is being proposed.

You all that bust my balls for posting over the past few months, seriously need to wake the fuck up. The current administration is going to decimate all desire for people to elevate their position in life through hard work and fiscal responsibility.

The opportunity for upward mobility based upon individual drive and ambition is going to be demolished if they keep going.

We seriously need to get to a flat tax without loopholes to stop this insanity. No loopholes for anyone - just pay 25% in taxes and earn what you can in your life for you and your family.

Fingers crossed these jackasses don't succeed.

Also for you "pay their fair share" crowd - you full of shit jackasses - here's one example:

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of...a-2020-update/

"In 2017, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent."

"The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent)."

"The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent)."

"Fair share" doesn't mean everything they have - "fair share" would be everyone paying in, but the "fair share" crowd are fucking idiots. So those "rich people" you all hate - better hope they don't stop working and live off what they have - because your ass is just going to be more poor and destitute.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shaps

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/03/weal...iden-plan.html

Potential 61% death tax.

Pay taxes your whole life - die - then they take the rest. Fucking sickening.

This doesn't even affect me, but no one should have their families life savings decimated like is being proposed.

You all that bust my balls for posting over the past few months, seriously need to wake the fuck up. The current administration is going to decimate all desire for people to elevate their position in life through hard work and fiscal responsibility.

The opportunity for upward mobility based upon individual drive and ambition is going to be demolished if they keep going.

We seriously need to get to a flat tax without loopholes to stop this insanity. No loopholes for anyone - just pay 25% in taxes and earn what you can in your life for you and your family.

Fingers crossed these jackasses don't succeed.

Also for you "pay their fair share" crowd - you full of shit jackasses - here's one example:

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of...a-2020-update/

"In 2017, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent."

"The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent)."

"The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent)."

"Fair share" doesn't mean everything they have - "fair share" would be everyone paying in, but the "fair share" crowd are fucking idiots. So those "rich people" you all hate - better hope they don't stop working and live off what they have - because your ass is just going to be more poor and destitute.

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You know I always thought: what if you can raise your lot in life through your job status rather than how much money you got?

I mean that theoretically should mean far more as you have to actually work your ass off and do something very few people can (with certain "upper level" jobs like a scientist or engineer) while with money anyone can walk into a 7/11 pick out 6 numbers or be some 17-year old girl, throw money into Dogecoin, and become a millionaire overnight.

Anyone else thought about it this way?

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Originally Posted by Skeletor

You know I always thought: what if you can raise your lot in life through your job status rather than how much money you got?

I mean that theoretically should mean far more as you have to actually work your ass off and do something very few people can (with certain "upper level" jobs like a scientist or engineer) while with money anyone can walk into a 7/11 pick out 6 numbers or be some 17-year old girl, throw money into Dogecoin, and become a millionaire overnight.

Anyone else thought about it this way?

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Good points. I'm fine with people making money however they make it though. I don't care. I want people to earn for themselves and their family - through hard work, job skills, luck with lotto, or smart investing...

I do not agree with the Government taking so much % from people that achieve something for themselves and their families. I get it, some taxes are needed... but not at the fucking rates they're proposing.

The issue is all of the special interests, the convoluted laws which allow loopholes, etc. The issue is 50% of the populous paying literally all of the taxes for 100% of the populous. The issue is the repeated "pay their fair share" argument to make the bottom 50% actually hate the top 50% that are already paying all of the taxes.

It's fucking absurd.

25% flat tax on everyone - no loopholes - no breaks - no nothing. Go out, earn, know what you're giving to government to support national defense, highway system, etc.... and you're left alone to achieve for yourself and family as you see fit - with the time, effort, and energy that you invest into it without interference from the government.

I know 25% flat tax will never happen - but taxing someone's earning/savings when they die at a proposed 61% is fucking pure theft. No one deserves to have that done to themselves or their families.

The supreme irony is that the ones that can afford it will set up their estate in a trust and pay almost no takes, relative to estate value, when someone dies, but it takes a fair amount of money for this to be worth it.

I have been fortunate in my life, hard work and proper choices with a little bit of luck here and there have made me very comfortable, but I do not plan on leaving much of anything for the government get their hands on. If I spend my last dollar on the day I die, I would call that good planning.

Also Shaps, there is no way the tax rate would have to be 25% if everyone payed, more like 15%, but as you pointed out, it will never happen.

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Originally Posted by kutter

The supreme irony is that the ones that can afford it will set up their estate in a trust and pay almost no takes, relative to estate value, when someone dies, but it takes a fair amount of money for this to be worth it.

I have been fortunate in my life, hard work and proper choices with a little bit of luck here and there have made me very comfortable, but I do not plan on leaving much of anything for the government get their hands on. If I spend my last dollar on the day I die, I would call that good planning.

Also Shaps, there is no way the tax rate would have to be 25% if everyone payed, more like 15%, but as you pointed out, it will never happen.

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I love hearing about people like you. Happy for your success and earnings.

I don't know what the % would be, but I know a flat, no loop-hole tax on everyone would be preferable to the shit-show we have going on now.

Fucking politicians I swear.

Did some fast math based off the 2017 numbers I'd linked earlier from the IRS:

10.9 Trillion adjusted gross income produced
1.6 Trillion in individual income taxes taken in

a 15% flat tax on everyone:
1.635 Trillion in individual taxes taken in

a 20% flat tax on everyone:
2.18 Trillion in individual taxes

a 25% flat tax on everyone:
2.725 Trillion in individual taxes

So you're right - 15% flat tax on everyone would be slightly over the current tax intake.

I say we compromise at 20%, maybe a flat 17.5% would be nicer - taking in more than currently. Much simpler system. Everyone knows everyone is paying in. Government can stop fucking around cause "they're getting theirs". And let people actually earn for themselves and their families.

That would solve so much fucking tension our politicians put us through and give the power back to the citizenry.

I fucking hate politicians.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shaps

Did some fast math based off the 2017 numbers I'd linked earlier from the IRS:

10.9 Trillion adjusted gross income produced
1.6 Trillion in individual income taxes taken in

a 15% flat tax on everyone:
1.635 Trillion in individual taxes taken in

a 20% flat tax on everyone:
2.18 Trillion in individual taxes

a 25% flat tax on everyone:
2.725 Trillion in individual taxes

So you're right - 15% flat tax on everyone would be slightly over the current tax intake.

I say we compromise at 20%, maybe a flat 17.5% would be nicer - taking in more than currently. Much simpler system. Everyone knows everyone is paying in. Government can stop fucking around cause "they're getting theirs". And let people actually earn for themselves and their families.

That would solve so much fucking tension our politicians put us through and give the power back to the citizenry.

I fucking hate politicians.

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It's because you use adjusted gross income that your plan goes right out the window. So much of income for top wage earnings is in options and other non tangibles which are instead taxed at a much lower capital gains rate. This means that high earners may pay 30% of their earnings after substantial pre-tax earnings and HSA deductions, but the much larger form of actual income is at a discount not available to poor and middle class earners.

Instead, if you want to say a 10-15% tax on all earnings over 10,000, including the cash value of all options and stocks, before deductions and eliminate capital gains altogether, you would have a much more equitable system.

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Originally Posted by Seran

It's because you use adjusted gross income that your plan goes right out the window. So much of income for top wage earnings is in options and other non tangibles which are instead taxed at a much lower capital gains rate. This means that high earners may pay 30% of their earnings after substantial pre-tax earnings and HSA deductions, but the much larger form of actual income is at a discount not available to poor and middle class earners.

Instead, if you want to say a 10-15% tax on all earnings over 10,000, including the cash value of all options and stocks, before deductions and eliminate capital gains altogether, you would have a much more equitable system.

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I'm good with working out some measure like that. I'm more in the camp of I don't care how you earn money - capital gains, whatever.

Total earning for the year: 15% - regardless how you earned it. Do away with all loopholes and deductions. Flat % on everyone.

I could get behind the under $10k thing - actually I'd lean towards under $15k I think. Don't tax younger people doing summer jobs, etc. earning for themselves.

Wait there's more - because I'd like a compromise in health care to shut the politicians up. So this works (massage the numbers as you think more reasonable) this just my rough idea:

Under $15k/year: 3% tax on earnings (applied directly to health care)
Over $15k/year: 20% tax on earnings (3% applied directly to health care)

The 3% for health care fund pays for the following for ALL citizens regardless of earnings:
2xDental check up and standard cleaning per year
2xDoctors check up and standard tests/bloodwork per year

Private health care/funds pay for extended benefits and coverage under the free market system.

Ensuring consistent check-ups, cleanings, and preventative measures for all citizens ensures an overall healthier populous - while ensuring the rest of the system is not controlled by Government 100% resulting in reduced innovation and quality of care.

Something like that - what think?

It's a fair compromise. The Healthcare/HMO lobby would tear it apart unfortunately. Explaining to your average person why a flat percentage on total annualized earnings versus a step up tax with collindar level holes in it would take total bipartisan commitment

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seran

It's a fair compromise. The Healthcare/HMO lobby would tear it apart unfortunately. Explaining to your average person why a flat percentage on total annualized earnings versus a step up tax with collindar level holes in it would take total bipartisan commitment

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Yea - shame our politicians will keep fucking us.

Some reason they think the money you, me, and everyone else earns is theirs to just take unfortunately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shaps

Yea - shame our politicians will keep fucking us.

Some reason they think the money you, me, and everyone else earns is theirs to just take unfortunately.

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WRONG! The shame is that many people seem to think that as individuals they deserve to have money from other people's pockets without earning it. Because of that mentality, the politicians can spend money to buy votes. Because people are selfish as fuck, short sighted and have poor financial education and understanding of how their decisions affect others and themselves AND because they always assume that "do unto others" means it will never be done unto them, they vote for these fucks without any thought to what will happen next month. For example, the unions are typically huge Democrat supporters, well, they voted for Biden in droves and BAM, pipeline closed, factories going back overseas and they are out jobs. But hey, anyone but Trump, always blue no matter who and so on. They got what they paid for and their leadership got paid off in the deal. Republicans are only somewhat better about this, the things they buy votes for often have tangible assets like planes, tanks and bridges.

War is coming, it won't be pretty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shaps

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/03/weal...iden-plan.html

Potential 61% death tax.

Pay taxes your whole life - die - then they take the rest. Fucking sickening.

This doesn't even affect me, but no one should have their families life savings decimated like is being proposed.

You all that bust my balls for posting over the past few months, seriously need to wake the fuck up. The current administration is going to decimate all desire for people to elevate their position in life through hard work and fiscal responsibility.

The opportunity for upward mobility based upon individual drive and ambition is going to be demolished if they keep going.

We seriously need to get to a flat tax without loopholes to stop this insanity. No loopholes for anyone - just pay 25% in taxes and earn what you can in your life for you and your family.

Fingers crossed these jackasses don't succeed.

Also for you "pay their fair share" crowd - you full of shit jackasses - here's one example:

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of...a-2020-update/

"In 2017, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent."

"The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent)."

"The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent)."

"Fair share" doesn't mean everything they have - "fair share" would be everyone paying in, but the "fair share" crowd are fucking idiots. So those "rich people" you all hate - better hope they don't stop working and live off what they have - because your ass is just going to be more poor and destitute.

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Spoiler Alert: The notion of a flat tax is as retarded as you are, and it will never be the law in the United States. Similarly, you will never be subject to an estate tax, which applies to .01% of estates, those worth nearly twelve million dollars.

So you're either:

• profoundly retarded and ignorant as shit, or
• lying out of your ass.

Which do you imagine reflects better on you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashliana

Spoiler Alert: The notion of a flat tax is as retarded as you are, and it will never be the law in the United States. Similarly, you will never be subject to an estate tax, which applies to .01% of estates, those worth nearly twelve million dollars.

So you're either:

• profoundly retarded and ignorant as shit, or
• lying out of your ass.

Which do you imagine reflects better on you?

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What is wrong with a flat tax, with 0 exemptions for anyone?

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Originally Posted by Gelston

What is wrong with a flat tax, with 0 exemptions for anyone?

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Specific criticisms of a flat tax structure depend on what specific proposal you're talking about, since most involve major shifts to consumption-based taxation rather than income tax.

Generally, though, the notion of a flat tax might seem fair -- the same rate for everyone! You could abolish the IRS! .. It all sounds perfectly fine, until you run the math, which generally both 1) necessarily reduce the scope of what the government could do -- under common proposals -- since they'd be taking in far less money under existing proposals, and 2) shift the existing tax burden from falling disproportionately on those with disproportionately high income, to the lower and middle classes. Conservatives often claim they want to return to the "better" days of American yore.. except the top marginal tax rate in those days was much higher than it currently is. It was in the 90%+ level in the mid-20th century for top earners.

An important point, though: You don't need to move a flat tax in order to remove exemptions from a progressive tax structure, and I absolutely support the simplification of the tax code. You know who doesn't? Special interest groups.. specifically, the tax preparation lobby, who have been waging a war on efforts to simplify it.

Another point: I have no problem with people who want to make the argument that government should play a smaller role in American life, even if I don't agree with it. Dressing it up under the notion of tax policy, though, is a smokescreen.

Flat Tax completely simplifies the tax code. It removes loopholes, and I'm talking about a pure fat tax, not a progressive or other models. No deductions, period. The IRS wouldn't be abolished, but the average person would never have anything to do with them, because the company would pay the taxes for employees. The current tax code has over a million words in it and seemingly benefits people who look for ways to cheat the system. Why even have that as a possibility?

The total income of the US in 2020 was nearly 20 trillion dollars. A 20% flat tax would be 4 trillion in that instance. Trump had proposed a FY21 budget, which was the largest ever, for 4.8 trillion dollars. The income tax almost covers that by itself in this instance, not even including sales tax and various other ways the Government raises money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashliana

Specific criticisms of a flat tax structure depend on what specific proposal you're talking about, since most involve major shifts to consumption-based taxation rather than income tax.

Generally, though, the notion of a flat tax might seem fair -- the same rate for everyone! You could abolish the IRS! .. It all sounds perfectly fine, until you run the math, which generally both 1) necessarily reduce the scope of what the government could do -- under common proposals -- since they'd be taking in far less money under existing proposals, and 2) shift the existing tax burden from falling disproportionately on those with disproportionately high income, to the lower and middle classes. Conservatives often claim they want to return to the "better" days of American yore.. except the top marginal tax rate in those days was much higher than it currently is. It was in the 90%+ level in the mid-20th century for top earners.

An important point, though: You don't need to move a flat tax in order to remove exemptions from a progressive tax structure, and I absolutely support the simplification of the tax code. You know who doesn't? Special interest groups.. specifically, the tax preparation lobby, who have been waging a war on efforts to simplify it.

Another point: I have no problem with people who want to make the argument that government should play a smaller role in American life, even if I don't agree with it. Dressing it up under the notion of tax policy, though, is a smokescreen.

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Flat tax is consumption tax, it's the perfect answer to reducing carbon emissions.

Quote:

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Conservatives often claim they want to return to the "better" days of American yore.. except the top marginal tax rate in those days was much higher than it currently is. It was in the 90%+ level in the mid-20th century for top earners.

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It has nothing to do with the tax rates at the time but rather the importance of the family unit in a sane society.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neveragain

Flat tax is consumption tax, it's the perfect answer to reducing carbon emissions.



It has nothing to do with the tax rates at the time but rather the importance of the family unit in a sane society.

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No, a Value Added Tax is a consumption tax. A flat tax proposal, as the one bandied about here, would apply equally to the total gross earnings of any income, passive earnings and the exercised value of stock options at the time of award. This would severely crack down on the loopholes used to avoid taxes entirely on non cash earnings.

What precisely is your problem with the proposal? If you have none, ignore this.

Under all of the tax systems in the last few decades, exemptions and loopholes severely reduced the effective taxation rate for the wealthiest. A flat tax would simplify taxation by auditing employers, banks and investment institutions

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seran

No, a Value Added Tax is a consumption tax. A flat tax proposal, as the one bandied about here, would apply equally to the total gross earnings of any income, passive earnings and the exercised value of stock options at the time of award. This would severely crack down on the loopholes used to avoid taxes entirely on non cash earnings.

What precisely is your problem with the proposal? If you have none, ignore this.

Under all of the tax systems in the last few decades, exemptions and loopholes severely reduced the effective taxation rate for the wealthiest. A flat tax would simplify taxation by auditing employers, banks and investment institutions

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I have no problems with a flat tax, it gives the tax payer complete control and incentivises people to consume less. This is why it's a consumption tax in it's purest form.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neveragain

I have no problems with a flat tax, it gives the tax payer complete control and incentivises people to consume less. This is why it's a consumption tax in it's purest form.

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But consumption doesn't drive the tax. Unless you're referring to people in low-wage areas would have less money at first and would have to consume less as a result of having less income

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seran

But consumption doesn't drive the tax. Unless you're referring to people in low-wage areas would have less money at first and would have to consume less as a result of having less income

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And we have a robust safety net to help those people.

I'm sorry that you don't understand that business owners just raise their prices when taxes increase.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neveragain

And we have a robust safety net to help those people.

I'm sorry that you don't understand that business owners just raise their prices when taxes increase.

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You just explained the equivalent of 3 + Green = Williams Shakespeare and are counting coup? Good luck with that.

What's been discussed is an increase in personal income taxes. Business earnings are unaffected by this proposal because corporate tax rates are separate and should remain separate.