Does anyone have one? Let’s see it.
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Does anyone have one? Let’s see it.
Sure do! It'll take a while to write up fully. I'll likely edit this post instead of replying with more, but for now I'll word vomit a few points:
This is NOT a runestaff Paladin, the benefits from 1625 are too good and you sacrifice too much chasing runestaff DS. Having said that, you hold a weapon but only use magic to kill. I was able to complete bounties and fry, but I could not hunt long enough to completely encumber myself as I was used to doing with a weapon. 1615 is your bread and butter. It's what allows this to work and will be the kill shot most of the time. This is also true because 1603 is not complete and its damage is trash. For most levels I opened with 1603, and on rare occasion it would crit kill, then follow up with an attack, shield strike, or qstrike -1 shield strike as stamina allowed. As you get your warding margin larger in later levels, opening with 1615 infused in the weapon was a kill often enough that I cut 1603 out as the opener in most areas. Example: OTF I opened with 1615 against ithzir but would still use 1603 in the Scatter because I found the extra flares on the shield strike helpful against cerebralites.
Required skills/spells - 1x SMC, 25 Summoning Lore, running 1618
build plan I used to test levels 40-100:
1.5x shield, 2x edge, 1x PF, 1x CM, 0x to .5x Dodge, 1x HP, 1x SMC, 1x Perc, as many spell ranks as you can fit- then assign where needed. lores, climb, swim, extra paladin circle ranks etc.
I could see you taking from CM to add more paladin circle ranks, but I was able to get to 21 over level without giving it up. That was my target. I then went back to lores before going beyond in pally circle. An option I didn't explore was taking CM and investing it into arcane symbols and religion lore. If you infuse a spell from a scroll into your weapon, you get +1 CS per rank up to 50. Given our bolt AS is complete shit and I didn't want to juggle scrolls for every hunt I opted to pass on this feature. I also dislike basing a large part of a build on consumables. Something else I'd consider is not training a full 2x in your weapon to add more paladin spell ranks. You only need to be an an offensive stance to trigger the infused spell, which means forward/advanced work just fine. If you pull back on weapon training and are using 1603, you almost guarantee a free 1603 proc on for every swing (and miss) used to cast. I did test this and it worked, but with 1603's current state I left it as something to revisit after the review is completed and used 2x weapon to limp through lower levels.
How this works:
You do in fact swing your weapon, but the sole purpose is to get a cast with -25 TD from the 25 summoning lore ranks. The infused spell has a 3 second CD before it can be cast again, so repeatedly swinging faster than 3 seconds doesn't gain you anything. I used a dagger with the goal of using the ATTACK verb at 3 seconds to mirror cast time when using my infused weapon. This meant I could stand and attack at the same speed as casting normally with a free -25 TD, as long as I re-infused every few kills. 5 seconds RT every now and then for a free, 100% -25 TD setup is an easy trade.
Including a shield gives you two things - MOAR DS and access to shield strike for a very cheap attack-2 weapon skill that casts your infused spell. It has a floor of 2 seconds without using Qstrike. This means if you alternate casting and qstrike you can average a cast every 2 seconds. 1s, 3s, 1s, 3s etc. Additionally, Shield strike being attack -2 with a floor of 2 seconds leaves the possibility for a 4 second weapon to be effectively the same as a 3 second weapon. If I was to stick with this long term I would choose a 4 second weapon for this reason.
I suggest infusing 1615 into your weapon. You can still open with 1603 if you'd like, but cast it. The -25 TD added onto 1615's endroll is a big help. If you're opening with a cast 1603 that's a 28 CS swing in your favor for the follow up 1615. The priority is really getting the max endroll for your 1615. The effect of 1x SMC is to raise the FLOOR of the damage range for 1615 when evoked. So a lot of the variability in result is mitigated if you can get a solid warding margin. Also of note, it was stated that 1x SMC is the cap for benefit here, enhancives/ascension won't raise the floor any higher.
This leaves the attack routine as alternating attack/shield strike/qstrike and incant 1615. Kill things until it's time to re-infuse. Rinse, repeat. You can stand in a forward or advanced stance, which had my DS higher than a more physical build in offensive. I'd have to check, but I don't think anything could touch me with an AS/DS attack if I was status free.
Afterthoughts
I chose 0% hindrance with MBP for this, but plate works find if you're OK with 3% hindrance.
"lower" levels there is a strain on your mana. 1603 not doing damage right now really hurts that. I haven't leveled a low level pure in over a decade, but it didn't feel too unlike what I remembered, not great. This build including 2x weapon skill also meant you could swing to finish a bounty/hunt if you had to. Ideally at low levels you'd pull back on weapon training, infuse 1603 and use the infused spell + proc on miss to double down on each swing to chew through mobs. We'll see where the spell ends up and if that's possible.
Ultimately, you're fishing for crit kills (at least until 1603 deals damage) like most CS casters (and getting them). This means anything ethereal, crit immune, heavily padded etc can be brutal. Without 1603 doing damage, we don't have great mana efficiency dealing raw damage. If you're voln you may have options for ethereal. The best example from my hunting was stone things (trolls, giants, illoke) in the 50's-70's. They were a bit painful. Fortunately there are other options. Krag yeti were fine, dwellers kinda sucked. By the time you hit cap I found the distinction largely went away. I was able to hunt OTF, Nelmar, Rift plane 4 and Scatter freshly capped (Or close, I maxed testing at 8 mil XP, then did it live in prime just shy of 10 mil XP).
Finally, this works and can be effective. I think you're giving up a decent part of the paladin kit not using a weapon at all. Especially because you can fit 2x OHE/OHB into a magic heavy training plan, change nothing and get a weapon strike included for no change in your plan when using shield strike. It has resulted in me investing significantly more into paladin ranks and 1x SMC in prime. Knowing which mobs are very easy to one shot with 1615 had sped up my standard hunting.
obligatory clips of win:
>incant 1615 evoke
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Repentance...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a krag yeti.
A pillar of grey luminescence manifests around a krag yeti.
CS: +317 - TD: +227 + CvA: +25 + d100: +87 == +202
Warding failed!
Waves of sacred energy tear through the krag yeti's body!
... 40 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Powerful lash of plasma travels down neck to the krag yeti's heart!
The krag yeti collapses to the ground and shudders once before finally going still.
A krag yeti shakes off the effects of the flames.
Your surroundings take on a violet sheen as you burn with zealous fervor!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
You gesture at a waern.
A pillar of grey luminescence manifests around a waern.
CS: +245 - TD: +144 + CvA: +25 + d100: +9 == +135
Warding failed!
Waves of sacred energy tear through the waern's body!
... 23 points of damage!
... 60 points of damage!
Explosive burst wreathes the waern's back in shimmering blue flames!
The waern falls to the ground and dies.
A waern shakes off the effects of the flames.
Your surroundings take on a violet sheen as you burn with zealous fervor!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
You gesture at an Ithzir adept.
A pillar of grey luminescence manifests around an Ithzir adept.
CS: +438 - TD: +346 + CvA: +19 + d100: +55 == +166
Warding failed!
Waves of sacred energy tear through the Ithzir adept's body!
... 75 points of damage!
... 60 points of damage!
Explosive burst wreathes the Ithzir adept's back in shimmering blue flames!
The Ithzir adept falls to the ground in a crumpled heap.
You launch a quick bash with your steel shield at a darkly inked fetish master!
[SMR result: 133 (Open d100: 60, Penalty: 3)]
Your fantail dagger pulses with a burst of plasma energy!
... 25 points of damage!
Superheated energy causes the artery in the fetish master's leg to explode!
It is knocked to the ground!
The fetish master is stunned!
Your fantail dagger sprays with a burst of plasma energy!
... 30 points of damage!
Vicious beam of energy rips open the fetish master's back!
The violet flashes in your peripheral vision disappear.
Your size contributes considerably to the attack!
Your bash connects!
... 20 points of damage!
Air supply cut off by sharp strike, the fetish master's eyes bulge!
As you attempt to strike with your fantail dagger, it sends a surge of power through you that quickly leaps out at the master!
You summon forth additional strength to aid your spell in penetrating the defenses surrounding the fetish master.
A pillar of grey luminescence manifests around a darkly inked fetish master.
CS: +460 - TD: +370 + CvA: +25 + d100: +92 == +207
Warding failed!
Waves of sacred energy tear through the fetish master's body!
... 41 points of damage!
... 45 points of damage!
Explosive blast sears the fetish master's eye away along with most of the face!
As a darkly inked fetish master slumps to the floor, the darkly lined tattoos traversing its skin lose the luminescence that had seemed to radiate from them.
A darkly inked fetish master appears less powerful.
A darkly inked fetish master seems to lose an aura of confidence.
The very powerful look leaves a darkly inked fetish master.
The white light leaves a darkly inked fetish master.
The deep blue glow leaves a darkly inked fetish master.
The light blue glow leaves a darkly inked fetish master.
How many spell ranks for that cast on the adept?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumbadoo
The 460 CS was 131 paladin ranks, 20 MnS in a bonded weapon
I'll see if I can grab what I was at for the 438 CS
Not all of those clips are from an infused weapon. I was casting directly for a while to test a 1 second shield strike with 1603 infused and casting 1615 as a follow up.
Does the 1603 proc even if the weapon strike doesn’t hit?
which proc - If you land 1603, then miss with another attack, will recast to add another -DS/-TD/-SMR debuffQuote:
Originally Posted by Tumbadoo
Zealous, the buff you get when you kill something under the effect of 1603, will proc on an offensive maneuver
Not sure if you mentioned this already but I’d imagine a caster build could make decent use of 1650 smite.. I use it fairly often in the scatter with my paladin and can just about fry off using that alone as it crits on first shot, more times than not. I believe spirit mana control ranks increases the number of uses so could be a decent option for a caster..
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You're spot on, 1650 smite is great and SMC helps add a lot of uses. You can even cast it before heading out to help ease the drain on your mana pool. I haven't added it but will include it in the next round of edits. The post isn't done yet, I'm sort of adding to it as I have small windows of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by chowell
Harness power ranks? More than 1x? Did I miss what you suggested?
Thoughts on societal choice?
So how many spell ranks are people going for a “normal” paladin build? Cap and post-cap.
At 8.6 mil experience, my paladin is 50/40 P/MnS currently for spells.
I'll probably bump Paladin spells up to 60 sometime soon... also may consider going 70/30, since I'm not exactly using 135 or 140.
Huh, how’s your warding? I’m barely able to ward 1xing to cap ?Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoddess
80/20 Pally/MnS. Raising Paladin circles to ride the 20% redux line for now. Will dip below when I have enough TPs to get to 121 PaladinQuote:
Originally Posted by Airemet
I missed it in the post. 1x leveling. Ended up 1.3-1.4 on the higher XP build in PrimeQuote:
Originally Posted by Tumbadoo
A quick look through my logs shows that I've got enough Pally CS that I can only miss on a d100 of a 1 or 2.... of course, I only hunt bandits, which may make for skewed numbers. (There's also armor hindrance that can make me miss, but that's also down to 2% with 1612 up, so 1603/1615/1630 rarely miss.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Airemet
1x spells here at cap, 81 Pal / 20 MnS. Warding is a little unreliable, so I only use the occasional 1614 or 1630 for swarms. With the new changes I haven't really needed Paladin spells all that much.. the drop to armor hindrance for MnS has allowed me to utilize 117 with little issue which has proven to be a fantastic opener.. Eventually I'd like to even out at 100 Pal spell ranks, but mostly to max phantom CM ranks with 611 for more AS.
To answer question about society. I've tried both GoS and Voln. They both have their advantages and disadvantages, but both have great synergy with Paladin setups so can't go wrong either way really.
infuse a setup spell into your weapon if you have or can fit 25 summoning lore in there. -25 TD makes it pretty darn consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by chowell
On the society suggestion:
I'd suggest Voln or CoL for the casting Paladin. I used stam constantly to get faster attacks in with qstrike and shield strike, essentially faster casting. Double dipping with GoS sigils seemed like it would limit how often I was "fast casting". I was a master of Voln when I did it. Independent resource, CS booster for undead and symb of sleep as an option over 1630 all helped conserve my mana. CoL and wracking could potentially work but I didn't test it or math out how being in a forward stance would work out for me.
Are you running 102 when hunting?
I feel the right mix between Pal/MnS is going to be critical for post-cap hunting as I think they are making it so you can no longer wear spells beyond your profession’s spell circle.
*Talking to Naijin, apparently, SK items aren’t safe from this rule.
I did, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumbadoo
Fair point, but until we see what those hunting hold, the rift/scatter is all I can speak to for self spelled only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airemet
The 460 CS clip was 131 paladin ranks, 20 MnS and I was completely fine in the scatter.
Anyone feel like speculating on why we can 2x spell aim? Might we be getting a bolting spell eventually?
technically you already have two and they are a powerful combo. Web bolt (with the lore) and fire spirit. My cleric when he had 2x spell aim would group hunt with 111 for bandit tagging and use web bolt in bowels. With the changes to hinderance I could see this being a viable hunting method for someone high level enough to hang with that mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumbadoo
The only real question would be even with 2x spell aiming is your bolt AS going to be worth anything?
Eh, I found bolt spells to be somewhat weak. I mean even the ones who are supposed to be using bolts shy away from them i.e. Wizards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthin
They should fix bolting at some point imho.
I mean one of my biggest concerns bolting was having to be in offensive. For some mobs my 306 was legit compared to 302. Where paladins would have a leg up is yeah they may be in offensive but they are in offensive in full plate and probably a shield/weapon combo or MBP. The bolt AS probably would not be worth it but in terms of getting hit it would be more palatable for a paladin to be caught in offensive versus a pure. That's why I wear brig and take 6-7% hinderance as a Cleric versus wearing something smaller. At least anecdotally I feel like I survive more if I am swept/forced offensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airemet
Short answer: no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthin
Long answer: no, not really, not without a lot of enhancives and outside spells.
I was playing around with this now that I've come back from a hiatus. I haven't specced my capped Dwarf yet, so my Elf gets to be the dummy for this one. At 53 I was able to get the following:
Enough Armor use for plate
SMC 25
Paladin spells +21
CM 1x
2x Blunt and Board
35 MoC
PF 2x
HP 1x
Percept 1x
25 climb and swim
I mean, it's a pretty awesome battle mage type setup. I don't have the balls to hit train on this, but I'll try it on the dwarf. It's limited obviously, but we've always been limited with training early on, so the changes kind of compensate for all that mess to try something mutant. Remember too, 1603 is pretty epic, It's dmg is fairly poor, but additional training in SMC with this makes this + 1615 a beast setup.
EDIT: Wanted to add, that smaller paladin races, IMO have the most potential to be OP later on due to polearm speed. With their dex values, 111 becomes even more of an option but likely not until postcap at some point for 2x Spell Aim...but 1603 and 1615 are begging us to be a melee class with spells. I dunno. There isn't enough diversity in hunting grounds to determine if spell aim and whatnot is worth it, but if you wanna be a badass spiritual magic wielding weapon master nows your chance.
Edit 2: at early cap (8m exp) forget about spell aim. I can't train shit. I had to drop a bunch of stuff to get paladin +21 while maintaining 1x blunt and board and 2x PF for Sunfist and mana. Lores, combat man., Multi opponent all had to come down in order for me to train the expected spell cap for warding. This is with dwarven perfect stats BTW. Biggest hit was to minor spirit. Had to come all the way back down to 120 and drop wall of force to accommodate this build. I'm sure there's some opportunity to balance here with Lores that I frankly haven't spent the time on. I REALLY want to dump the rest of my TPs into SMC to see what 1615 does, but I'm not happy with what I'm seeing. I'm sure you have more flexibility at pure casting with plate if you go this route, but, IMO, it really gimps the class' utility.
Adding a quick note as I went on my first, full spell based hunt today alongside an empath. I had 1 failed cast due to hinderance and used a combination of 1603, 1615 and 1630 throughout the hunt. I remained at must rest through the entirety of the fight then went to go turn in my bounty and dropped to numb much more quickly than I thought I would. It looks like either the exp is somehow absolute dog trash for us using spells as a main source of attack, or, we're simply not capable of dishing out enough damage to fry ourselves properly.
What level were the creatures you were hunting vs your own level? I’ve never heard of form of attack effecting your exp gain, I thought a hit was a hit and counted all the same?
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It was a 5 level difference. I'm 55, and the critters were 50. It could be the 5 level difference, but I've never had it die off like it had when I'm swinging.Quote:
Originally Posted by chowell
You're only getting 50 XP from each critter with that much underhunting. Makes a big difference.
I understand what you're saying. I just walked a child back from Faeroths...which is like, a long time and I was still fried from swinging and the critters were the same from the previous hunt. I wonder if it simply has to do with the speed at which we can kill vs. pures. We have no insta kill rolls based on lores or whathaveyou, so our spell hunting is more than likely longer than your typical charater.Quote:
Originally Posted by caelric
I personally think that it was just the walk that killed you on must rest/numbed... and dragging a kid. The only slight difference is that perhaps while swinging you stayed out for the extra kills. Many things enchant ensorcell your mind... when they first say they are done, you can top off the tank it's not an auto shut off.