2016 Election Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by mjc

Give me a fucking break. You know EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Why must you be so dense to try to achieve your means?

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Actually, most undocumented immigrants DO pay taxes. Here's the bitter truth- I know that everyone thinks that every undocumented immigrant is from Mexico and works in a field (NOT that those are somehow inferior human beings), but actually most are on payrolls and have payroll taxes taken out of their paychecks.

They pay for social security, medicare, medicaid...things they will never benefit from.

They're already tax payers. And they take less than your average citizen.

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Originally Posted by mjc

Let's be clear....I said nothing about deportations. We were and all immigrants at some point. However, if you're here and want to stay, become a citizen.

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I just think we should establish some provisions to assist that process to prevent those mass deportations.

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Originally Posted by Fallen

Who knew politics could be so divisive?

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John Adams and Thomas Jefferson?

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Originally Posted by mjc

Let's be clear....I said nothing about deportations. We were and all immigrants at some point. However, if you're here and want to stay, become a citizen.

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I didn't say anything about deportations either, and I wasn't trying to insinuate that you were. When it comes down to it, we're all in agreement here. We're just not in agreement in some cases as to the best solution. That's primarily what conservative vs. liberal is all about, with a few obvious lines in the sand, of course.

One of the horribly inefficient systems we currently have in the US is the immigration system itself. It's a nightmare to get through, and can take years. I've got no personal experience; just the experience of a number of Chinese immigrants I work with. An average person with no connections is going to have a hell of a time getting through that system. It's hard enough to get sponsored work visas for people we need to get into the country in the case of one of my clients. It needs an overhaul, or god forbid I say it lest someone get angry, privatization, before we can call on it as a legitimate option to send people through. Make it about the money, and the efficiency will follow. To go back to time4fun's example, I wouldn't wish that system on her brother, or anyone else in any family, illegal or not.

There are a lot of ways to address the problem. The fear a lot of undocumented workers have is that mass deportation or imprisonment is on the table, and I don't think without overhauls of a number of other systems, either one of those is going to be good for anyone, or save any money.

[QUOTE=Warriorbird;1898272]I just think we should establish some provisions to assist that process to prevent those mass deportations.[/QUOk


Ok. Well, I DO think there should be provisions for ones that are here. That would require an action on their part. I would hope they would abide the requirements. It shouldn't be a "because I said so" thing. All countries have requirements for citizenship. I find it funny that those concerned haven't bothered with it all this time.

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Originally Posted by Jarvan

The real question.... why is she legal, and he is illegal? Is she an anchor baby? Did she get a green card and he didn't? Why hasn't he tried to become a citizen?

Also.. do you regularly ignore other crimes people commit?

And why are you worried? Is your brother a criminal who has committed a felony? Because even Trump said he isn't going to deport every illegal. But he will deport every criminal.


And... lastly... you are a piece of shit for not having already helped him become a citizen. Unless of course he DOESN'T want to be one because, he along with you, HATE America.

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At one point in time, I thought you were a good person.

You have demonstrated that you're what you accused me of. Partially for being unwilling to read full posts- which described why he's undocumented and the ways I tried to help. And partially for taking as your primary point from all of this how horrible the family members of people like my brother are. Again- be human. Be something better than this.

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Originally Posted by time4fun

At one point in time, I thought you were a good person.

You have demonstrated that you're what you accused me of. Partially for being unwilling to read full posts- which described why he's undocumented and the ways I tried to help. And partially for taking as your primary point from all of this how horrible the family members of people like my brother are. Again- be human. Be something better than this.

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I think your blind intolerance to the views, wants, and wishes of other people and your general proclivity to call them "stupid", "racist", "sexist" or any other negative word has led to people not bothering to read the full context of your posts. This, again, is something you've brought upon yourself.

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Originally Posted by Stumplicker

I didn't say anything about deportations either, and I wasn't trying to insinuate that you were. When it comes down to it, we're all in agreement here. We're just not in agreement in some cases as to the best solution. That's primarily what conservative vs. liberal is all about, with a few obvious lines in the sand, of course.

One of the horribly inefficient systems we currently have in the US is the immigration system itself. It's a nightmare to get through, and can take years. I've got no personal experience; just the experience of a number of Chinese immigrants I work with. An average person with no connections is going to have a hell of a time getting through that system. It's hard enough to get sponsored work visas for people we need to get into the country in the case of one of my clients. It needs an overhaul, or god forbid I say it lest someone get angry, privatization, before we can call on it as a legitimate option to send people through. Make it about the money, and the efficiency will follow. To go back to time4fun's example, I wouldn't wish that system on her brother, or anyone else in any family, illegal or not.

There are a lot of ways to address the problem. The fear a lot of undocumented workers have is that mass deportation or imprisonment is on the table, and I don't think without overhauls of a number of other systems, either one of those is going to be good for anyone, or save any money.

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Then we agree. I don't actually know, personally, any of them. I don't want to throw ANYONE to the wolves (not anyone). I DON"T. I am a very level-headed, compassionate person (when not drinking). I just know what my family and I are dealing with with insurance premiums and out of cost. Maybe others don't see that as a problem, but when our citizens (including our veterans) are doing without because of the illegal and undocumented, that MUST be addressed. It is a problem.

[QUOTE=Warriorbird;1898272]I just think we should establish some provisions to assist that process to prevent those mass deportations.

Oh, so do I!

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Originally Posted by time4fun

Actually, most undocumented immigrants DO pay taxes. Here's the bitter truth- I know that everyone thinks that every undocumented immigrant is from Mexico and works in a field (NOT that those are somehow inferior human beings), but actually most are on payrolls and have payroll taxes taken out of their paychecks.

They pay for social security, medicare, medicaid...things they will never benefit from.

They're already tax payers. And they take less than your average citizen.

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I'm still subsidizing their insurance.

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Originally Posted by mjc

Then we agree. I don't actually know, personally, any of them. I don't want to throw ANYONE to the wolves (not anyone). I DON"T. I am a very level-headed, compassionate person (when not drinking). I just know what my family and I are dealing with with insurance premiums and out of cost. Maybe others don't see that as a problem, but when our citizens (including our veterans) are doing without because of the illegal and undocumented, that MUST be addressed. It is a problem.

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Sure sure. It's a problem that definitely will help if we solve it, but take into account the numbers too. It's far from the only problem, and definitely nowhere near the largest. Highest estimates put the cost of illegal immigrants at around 100 billion per year, on a budget on 3.8 trillion. If we waved a magic wand and solved it tomorrow, and the cost went to zero for illegal immigration, that's 2.6% of the budget freed up, to be spread out between bailing out healthcare, education, veteran benefits, transportation and road upkeep, and a dozen or more other systems in dire need of reform and repair. Don't get me wrong, it can and should happen to free up that 2.6%, but the prevailing sentiment seems to be that illegal immigrants have caused all our problems, even from the way you worded your post there. 100 billion per year will not fix education, or veterans benefits, or social security, or the F-35 project, or obscene levels of military spending, or spiraling healthcare costs, or banking regulation, and it wasn't the cause of the problems with any of those things. It's a number we need to get off our books, for sure, but there's a lot more going on than just illegal immigrants. Now we have a President Elect whose primary platform to court certain groups of voters was "All your problems are caused by Mexicans", and even in this thread we have a lot of the "You're going to prison" "Your brother is a felon" and "Get the hell out" going on. And almost 30 pages of people in a frothing rage at someone who dared say that someone in their family was an immigrant, and they were scared as a result.

That's a problem.