Terrorists break into US Capitol Building

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01-13-2021, 12:52 PM
Parkbandit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back

Thats whats so sad about all this. We lived in a country where our democratic landmarks were safe. The atmosphere of freedom in our country has now changed. The atmosphere of safety and peace are falling away.

This affects you, me, PB, Shaps, T4F, everyone here regardless of political ideology or no political ideology. We've lost our peace, safety, and freedom.

Trump managed to shatter all of it with his lies.

Easy does it, Drama Queen. It doesn't affect anyone who doesn't actually work at the Capitol. You're going to be ok. Dry those tears up, Cupcake.

Most of the security items you mentioned should have been in place since 9-12-01 and frankly, I'm surprised they weren't.

As far as our "Democrat landmarks were safe", I don't remember you bemoaning when the Washington Monument, Lincoln Memorial and countless other landmarks were defaced and vandalized. So weird.
01-13-2021, 12:54 PM
Jeril

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back

Thats whats so sad about all this. We lived in a country where our democratic landmarks were safe. The atmosphere of freedom in our country has now changed. The atmosphere of safety and peace are falling away.

This affects you, me, PB, Shaps, T4F, everyone here regardless of political ideology or no political ideology. We've lost our peace, safety, and freedom.

Trump managed to shatter all of it with his lies.

Sad that you blame it on Trump, not everyone who is ultimately responsible for him being there in the first place. Which is, us, the American people.
01-13-2021, 12:54 PM
Bhaalizmo

Quote:

Originally Posted by drauz

It's not metal detectors at the entrance to the building, they put them at the entrance to the floor of the house.

Seems stupid, pointless, and just something to provoke stupid republicans. Gives zero actual protection for House members.

I think we should go the other way with it. Require all house members to be proficient with a firearm, have a CCP, and carry on the floor of the House.
01-13-2021, 12:57 PM
Bhaalizmo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeril

Sad that you blame it on Trump, not everyone who is ultimately responsible for him being there in the first place. Which is, us, the American people.

Lets be clear, Trump attaining the presidency (which is the only thing he's ever done or said that surprised me) was not solely the fault of the American people. Let's not forget Russian & Chinese intelligence (among others), Republican efforts to suppress votes, and I'm sure we can come up with a few other things that are now well documented as having influenced the 2016 electoral result. It was not simply the will of the American people.
01-13-2021, 01:01 PM
Back

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeril

Sad that you blame it on Trump, not everyone who is ultimately responsible for him being there in the first place. Which is, us, the American people.

I disagree. While I do hold members of the republican party who went along with Trump's rape and abuse of our highest office the voters could not have known it would come to this. And what I mean by "this" is our democratic institutions falling because Trump will not let go of the lie that the election was rigged against him. Trump is not fighting for the voters, or America, he is fighting for Trump, and taking everything down with him.
01-13-2021, 01:03 PM
Neveragain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhaalizmo

Lets be clear, Trump attaining the presidency (which is the only thing he's ever done or said that surprised me) was not solely the fault of the American people. Let's not forget Russian & Chinese intelligence (among others), Republican efforts to suppress votes, and I'm sure we can come up with a few other things that are now well documented as having influenced the 2016 electoral result. It was not simply the will of the American people.

Exhibit A: Russia made me do it.
01-13-2021, 01:04 PM
Neveragain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back

I disagree. While I do hold members of the republican party who went along with Trump's rape and abuse of our highest office the voters could not have known it would come to this. And what I mean by "this" is our democratic institutions falling because Trump will not let go of the lie that the election was rigged against him. Trump is not fighting for the voters, or America, he is fighting for Trump, and taking everything down with him.

Exhibit B: Only they do evil things.
01-13-2021, 01:08 PM
Back

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhaalizmo

I think we should go the other way with it. Require all house members to be proficient with a firearm, have a CCP, and carry on the floor of the House.

So when some lunatic who managed to get elected to congress starts the firefight they can all have a shoot out? You know the story of how Caesar died?

Capitol police, yes. Everyone else? No way.
01-13-2021, 01:09 PM
Neveragain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back

So when some lunatic who managed to get elected to congress starts the firefight they can all have a shoot out? You know the story of how Caesar died?

Capitol police, yes. Everyone else? No way.

Exhibit C: People are incapable.
01-13-2021, 01:11 PM
Latrinsorm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaps

My position is that violence is not good.

I've maintained that the whole time.

I'm just okay with violence if that is the ruleset people want to live under. Simple terms: If you do violence to me, I will return the violence. That doesn't mean I like it. It doesn't mean I want to. It doesn't mean I'll start it. But it does mean, if those are the rules you wish to engage under, then I will do so as well.

My issue is the feigned outrage over one instance of violence as compared to another. If violence is okay under certain circumstances, then it is under others. If not, then not. I lean towards wanting a world where violence is condemned regardless, but others like to pick and choose. I'm just okay if that's the direction they want to go. Just don't complain when it comes back on you.

And to directly answer your question: I am always open to reconsider my conclusions or thoughts. So long as the rules/laws/auspices under which we are engaging are clear and adhered to.

Edit: For some reason people try to read what I say and think I somehow think what occurred at the Capitol is okay. It's not and I've said as much. I'm just not surprised. I dislike the current outrage, when for months normal citizens have lived under threat of violence and rioting for months - and OUR elected officials downplayed it or made excuses. When normal citizens are subjected to such violence, don't all of a sudden - as an elected official - get all "law and order" or achieve "moral clarity" when it comes to you. They should have been protecting YOU and me, and every normal constituent they govern. Not picking sides on who's allowed to do violence and who's not.

Alright, let's talk about the laws under which we are engaging.

In the US Code we have laws against assault with the following penalties (18 USC 113):
-assault with intent to murder, up to 20 years
-assault with intent to commit a non-murder felony, up to 10 years
-assault resulting in serious bodily injury to a partner or someone younger than 17, up to 5 years
-assault without those or other specified* intents or results, up to 1 year

We also have laws against murder, with the following penalties (18 USC 1111):
-murder in the second degree, up to life
-murder in the first degree, up to death

We agree these are all violence.
We agree these are all not good.
While we may disagree on any particular penalty here, surely we agree that different penalties are appropriate for these different violences, right?

Okay. Now look again - intent, to a. We have an extremely detailed and well-settled hierarchy that often depends on to whom the violence is done, why the person is doing the violence. This has been true long before Donald J. Trump or any of us was born, it'll be true long after we're dead. We have also since the very beginning of our country decided that violence against the government is especially heinous - it's literally the only crime defined in the Constitution! This isn't some post facto justification, these are the clear rules we've all been perfectly happy to adhere to our whole lives. Which brings me back to my asterisk:

*18 USC 111 specifies that if there is an assault that against a normal citizen like you or me would only carry a penalty up to 1 year, but is instead an assault against a member of the government, the penalty goes up to 8 years. If the assault against a normal citizen like you or me would only carry a penalty up to 10 years, against a member of the government the penalty goes up to 20 years.

.

But maybe you don't agree with any of that.
Maybe you think we should Rubicon III it and any act of violence should carry the same penalty.
And I'm not telling you what you should or shouldn't believe.
All I'm telling you is that the definition of hypocrite isn't someone not believing what you believe.

And almost all Americans and absolutely all of our law don't believe as you propose.
They can completely coherently have one response to BLM and another to insurrection.
Because they wrote all the rules down long before any of this happened, and that's what the rules unambiguously say.

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