Climate Change Report

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Originally Posted by cwolff

That's the red Herring Again. You're trying to "win" by diverting what we were talking about which was Moore as a shill.

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Dude. No. Stop.

cwolff: "The guy is a shill!"
Me: "For whom?"
cwolff: "For energy companies!"
Me: "Like nuclear energy? What's wrong with nuclear energy?"
cwolff: "Red herring!"

This is how conversation works. You say something, I say something then you say something then I'll say something again.

If I wanted to disprove Moore was a shill (which I'm not necessarily doing) how would I go about that without you saying I'm just resorting to a logical fallacy? Or are you saying we basically just have to take your word as gospel on this matter?

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Originally Posted by waywardgs

So your contention is that all the corporations and interests and front groups on that list are somehow "good"?

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I didn't say that, I just said a corporation isn't inherently bad. When someone lists a bunch of corporations then says "This Moore guy has been paid by them at one point or another" why is that automatically supposed to make Moore sound like is an asshole? I think Moore's point was that you have to be a realistic environmentalist. You can't just say all corporations are evil and need to go away. For example his red herring take on nuclear energy. The world needs energy (unless we want to go backwards as a society) and nuclear energy is one of the safest and cleanest forms of energy around. Likewise his point about the logging industry. Do we not want homes and shelters and paper and shit? Are all logging companies necessarily evil because they cut down trees? Are there possibly some responsible logging companies?

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Originally Posted by waywardgs

1. Penn and Teller: Question the background of all these fools screaming about ACC and their motivations! (valid)

2. Use a guy who's built a dubious career out of lending his bullshit "former greenpeace" credentials to prove your point.

3. That guy is guilty of the VERY SAME THING penn and teller are criticizing the environmental movement for.

4. Fuck.

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I think the point of using Moore was in direct response that there was supposedly no debate over whether the world was going to end in the next 50 years and that mass extinctions were going to happen unless we did something about it.

From Greenpeace wiki...

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"Environmental historian Frank Zelko dates the formation of the "Don't Make a Wave Committee" to 1969 and according to Jim Bohlen the group adopted the name "Don't Make a Wave Committee" on 29 November 1969.[31] According to the Greenpeace web site, The Don't Make a Wave Committee was established in 1970.[32] Certificate of incorporation of The Don't Make a Wave Committee dates the incorporation to the fifth of October, 1970.[33] Researcher Vanessa Timmer dates the official incorporation to 1971.[34] Greenpeace itself calls the protest voyage of 1971 as "the beginning".[35] According to Patrick Moore, who was an early member but has since distanced himself from Greenpeace, and Rex Weyler, the name of "The Don’t Make a Wave Committee" was officially changed to Greenpeace Foundation in 1972.[33][36] Because of the early phases spanning several years, there are differing views on who can be called the founders of Greenpeace."

"Because Patrick Moore was among the crew of the first protest voyage and the beginning of the journey is often referred as the birthday of Greenpeace, Moore also considers himself one of the founders.[33] Greenpeace used to list Moore among "founders and first members" of but has later stated that while Moore was a significant early member, he was not among the founders of Greenpeace in 1970"

'Early Greenpeace director Rex Weyler says on his homepage that the insiders of Greenpeace have debated about the founders since mid-1970's"

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenpeace

So was he a founder? Who knows. He was there at what Greenpeace calls "The Beginning". Of course NOW Greenpeace wouldn't call him a founder if it all started in his basement and he paid for it with his pocket change.

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Originally Posted by waywardgs

So your contention is that all the corporations and interests and front groups on that list are somehow "good"?

It's a long shot, but maybe that's true. But think about what it says about the messenger- he's going to lend his name to ANY DAMN THING. He's not an "expert" in ALL of those fields. Don't be daft.

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From hat i saw, he was advising those companies on improving their Eco image, and maybe Eco practices.

You don't need to know Nuclear Physics to advise a company to NOT dispose of nuclear waste in a "bad" way.

Actually.. reading those things you posted... I don't see a single one that says he takes money to promote how awesome an energy company is.

Westcoast Energy and BC Gas 1993-1994 "to design a public consultation process to address greenhouse gas emissions for the natural gas sector in B.C.";

BHP Minerals to facilitate a round table on proposals to use the abandoned Island Copper mine as a landfill site (1993-94);

consultant to the Canadian Mining Association and the Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada "on the role of biodiversity in environmental policy in the mining industry," (1996);

consultant to BHP Minerals (Canada) Ltd. to author a paper on the environmental impact of submarine tailings disposal over the 23-year life of the Island Copper Mine on Vancouver Island

The only thing that comes close.. is the fact that he speaks on behalf of Logging companies. Doesn't say exactly why he does.. but could be that he is saying something along the lines of replanting while logging doesn't harm the environment in the long term. -shrugs-

Unless the Logging industry has suddenly become the oil industry, or hell, the energy industry.. Cwolff's and your claims are invalid.

Also... the dude has a PH.D. in Ecology... I think that makes him an expect on the impact of companies on the ecology... Then again, what do I know.

Don't you know what a shill is? Maybe that's the problem.

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A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization.

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Originally Posted by Jarvan

From Greenpeace wiki...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenpeace

So was he a founder? Who knows. He was there at what Greenpeace calls "The Beginning". Of course NOW Greenpeace wouldn't call him a founder if it all started in his basement and he paid for it with his pocket change.

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I'll buy that. He can call himself a founder and I won't object.

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Originally Posted by cwolff

Don't you know what a shill is? Maybe that's the problem.

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Actually the real problem here is that I've let you throw me off track here. Bad cwolff.

I don't think I've ever said this guy wasn't a shill. I was simply asking why is it necessarily bad that he shills for certain companies...say like...nuclear energy! Then your only response is "Red herring!"

Okay fine, let's just go ahead and say the guy is a shill for nuclear energy. You win this one cwolff.

Now tell me why is supporting nuclear energy bad?

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Originally Posted by Tgo01

Actually the real problem here is that I've let you throw me off track here. Bad cwolff.

I don't think I've ever said this guy wasn't a shill. I was simply asking why is it necessarily bad that he shills for certain companies...say like...nuclear energy! Then your only response is "Red herring!"

Okay fine, let's just go ahead and say the guy is a shill for nuclear energy. You win this one cwolff.

Now tell me why is supporting nuclear energy bad?

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I won't tell you that.

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Originally Posted by cwolff

I won't tell you that.

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Mmm hmm.

Tgo01: 1,000,000
cwolff: 1

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Originally Posted by waywardgs

1. Penn and Teller: Question the background of all these fools screaming about ACC and their motivations! (valid)

2. Use a guy who's built a dubious career out of lending his bullshit "former greenpeace" credentials to prove your point.

3. That guy is guilty of the VERY SAME THING penn and teller are criticizing the environmental movement for.

4. Fuck.

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From the video, exactly what did Patrick Moore say that was false, misinformed or wrong? Factually.. not because you disagree with it.

I read through his bio.. he seems to be taking a common sense approach to climate change without the bullshit "OMG COMPANIES ARE EVIL AND WE MUST DESTROY THEM ALL!!!!11111111"

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Originally Posted by cwolff

Don't you know what a shill is? Maybe that's the problem.

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It seems like you don't understand what a shill is. Moore runs a company that works with other companies to help them do things in an ecologically responsible manner.

Using your very basic misunderstanding of the term, I would also be a shill because I am a contractor for an electric company and you disagree with me.

That's not what a shill is.

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Originally Posted by Parkbandit

Using your definition, it seems like you don't understand what a shill is. Moore runs a company that works with other companies to help them do things in an ecologically responsible manner.

It's not someone who you just disagree with.

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Just because you run a company to work with other companies to help them do things in an ecologically responsible manner doesn't mean you necessarily have to believe in it (you're a great example) or not be in the pocket of industry.