Russia Investigation Heating Up

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Originally Posted by cwolff

I believe it has been proven. Don Jr. colluded with Russian agents to get dirt on Hillary, denied it vehemently a month later, and one year later his father led a cover up which caused Carallo to resign in protest. Textbook collusion with the bonus of denials and coverups.

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Technically it's only illegal if they knowingly accepted aid from Russia and/or they negotiated US policy with them before Trump took office.

It's possible that the Russians never provided anything in that meeting (or as a result of it), or that the Trump campaign turned down any offers for help. That stretches the limits of belief- especially given the actions of the Trump campaign AND Russia following the meeting. But it's possible.

And technically they could say that the work they did to lift sanctions (and then to resist new ones) was done for some reason other than repaying Russia for the services it provided during the campaign. It's not proven that's why he did it. (The sanctions did actually affect his business dealings in Russia...the ones he kept denying he had) Again, it beggars belief. But it's possible.

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Originally Posted by time4fun

Technically it's only illegal if they knowingly accepted aid from Russia and/or they negotiated US policy with them before Trump took office.

It's possible that the Russians never provided anything in that meeting (or as a result of it), or that the Trump campaign turned down any offers for help. That stretches the limits of belief- especially given the actions of the Trump campaign AND Russia following the meeting. But it's possible.

And technically they could say that the work they did to lift sanctions (and then to resist new ones) was done for some reason other than repaying Russia for the services it provided during the campaign. It's not proven that's why he did it. (The sanctions did actually affect his business dealings in Russia...the ones he kept denying he had) Again, it beggars belief. But it's possible.

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Collusion isn't illegal at all is it? It's not even a legal thing. It'd be the actions one takes while colluding that are going to violate the law. But yes, they have colluded. That ship done sailed. Now it's Mueller's job to return indictments or not regarding the whole ball of wax.

As for the meeting, they didn't have to provide anything. Like if I set up a deal to sell you an underage schoolgirl hooker but when you arrive I really just try to sell you a puppy. Puppies aren't illegal to buy, going to get yourself an underage hooker is though.

I agree that it'll be hard to hang him and it's too early to count on Mueller fixing all this and righting the ship. Honestly, I don't think he will. I think we're slipping into a Putin style "democracy" and that trump is going to come out on top. The only way, ONLY WAY, we don't lose the country is huge Mid Term turnouts. Even modest or better than modest gains by the Dems will be seen as a win for trump.

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Originally Posted by cwolff

Collusion isn't illegal at all is it? It's not even a legal thing. It'd be the actions one takes while colluding that are going to violate the law. But yes, they have colluded. That ship done sailed. Now it's Mueller's job to return indictments or not regarding the whole ball of wax.

As for the meeting, they didn't have to provide anything. Like if I set up a deal to sell you an underage schoolgirl hooker but when you arrive I really just try to sell you a puppy. Puppies aren't illegal to buy, going to get yourself an underage hooker is though.

I agree that it'll be hard to hang him and it's too early to count on Mueller fixing all this and righting the ship. Honestly, I don't think he will. I think we're slipping into a Putin style "democracy" and that trump is going to come out on top. The only way, ONLY WAY, we don't lose the country is huge Mid Term turnouts. Even modest or better than modest gains by the Dems will be seen as a win for trump.

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Even if they colluded there won't be any charges for it. The correct word is conspiracy. Conspiracy to defraud the US, conspiracy to obstruct justice, etc.

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Originally Posted by cwolff

Collusion isn't illegal at all is it? It's not even a legal thing. It'd be the actions one takes while colluding that are going to violate the law. But yes, they have colluded. That ship done sailed. Now it's Mueller's job to return indictments or not regarding the whole ball of wax.

As for the meeting, they didn't have to provide anything. Like if I set up a deal to sell you an underage schoolgirl hooker but when you arrive I really just try to sell you a puppy. Puppies aren't illegal to buy, going to get yourself an underage hooker is though.

I agree that it'll be hard to hang him and it's too early to count on Mueller fixing all this and righting the ship. Honestly, I don't think he will. I think we're slipping into a Putin style "democracy" and that trump is going to come out on top. The only way, ONLY WAY, we don't lose the country is huge Mid Term turnouts. Even modest or better than modest gains by the Dems will be seen as a win for trump.

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I actually think it's going to be pretty easy- provided the investigation is allowed to continue. Mueller seems to be running up the tree at a pretty rapid pace. And he's demonstrated that he and his team are adept at flipping witnesses.

Re: childhood sex worker example: Actually, you're right on this.

Election law does prohibit the knowing receipt of something of value from a Foreign national if it's directly related to a campaign. So if the Trump campaign knew- or reasonably should have known- that Russia was providing them with tangible assistance (i.e. they were spending money/giving time and didn't fall under the volunteer exemption), technically they're in violation of the law. I've sort of put this part of the equation out of my mind for a while now because there was this big outstanding question of whether non-monetary aid in the form of hacking, etc. would trigger the Federal Election Campaign Act. But Mueller's recent IRA indictment actually clearly demonstrates that Russia was spending actual money on the efforts to help the Trump campaign. So that legal question should be rendered moot. (I'm not super up on case law with this stuff though, so grain of salt)

Typically if you become aware of (or should reasonably be aware of) an illegal contribution from a foreign national, you have to return it. You can't return the kind of aid Russia gave, but the argument would be that they didn't attempt to stop the aid and, instead, embraced it. (Remember that day when Trump got up in front of national TV and told Russia to continue to hack Clinton's email? I always thought that was going to get him in trouble at some point)

Then there's the whole conspiracy to defraud the US, Logan Act, etc- but those all involve a much higher burden of proof as far as intent goes.

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Originally Posted by Androidpk

Even if they colluded there won't be any charges for it. The correct word is conspiracy. Conspiracy to defraud the US, conspiracy to obstruct justice, etc.

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You can't have conspiracy without an underlying illegal act though.

That was part of the critique of Mueller's original indictment of Manafort. His conspiracy charges were all tied to the failure to register as a foreign agent- which was potentially flimsy given what a low level crime it was compared to the conspiracy charges.

Next week should be a busy week.

https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/03/2...ak-conspiracy/

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Originally Posted by Androidpk

Next week should be a busy week.

https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/03/2...ak-conspiracy/

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That article makes my head spin. I've lost track of the various Russians coming and going. I just hope to God that Mueller burns the whole thing down.

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Originally Posted by time4fun

(Remember that day when Trump got up in front of national TV and told Russia to continue to hack Clinton's email? I always thought that was going to get him in trouble at some point)

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Clinton was such a bad candidate that nobody cared.

http://static1.businessinsider.com/i...0306017956.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orYcAiFqknU&t=17s

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Originally Posted by Latrinsorm

He said, on a text mud message board.

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https://youtu.be/OGZoTWebXpA

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Originally Posted by Neveragain

Clinton was such a bad candidate that nobody cared.

http://static1.businessinsider.com/i...0306017956.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orYcAiFqknU&t=17s

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Yeah... You're racist gutter trash. What you care about doesn't reflect what normal people care about.