Thread for Things That Made You Frown Today

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Originally Posted by Jeril

From all this I get that your biggest beef with it is that it is currently being poorly executed. This means that the problem isn't with the law itself but with those who are charged with executing it. From the sounds of it this stems from a problem in management, so either get those in charge to change how things are done or fire them and get someone who will.

While Ker_Thwaps example is a bit extreme I think it does illustrate the point. For something more realistic, I'd see nothing wrong with a cop stopping someone for questioning who looks very out of place for the neighborhood they are in and then frisking them for a bulge in their clothing that looks suspiciously like a gun.

Once again I'll say it, the problems you have pointed cwolff, are about management and execution nothing against the law itself.

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That's incorrect. My problem with it is that it's a violation of your 4th amendment rights. If we keep giving up these rights piece by piece we'll eventually have no more rights to give up. At that point it's too late to fight back.

To Ker_Thwaps point, unreasonable refers to being stopped for no reason. It's got nothing to do with how they treat you, but why they are talking to you anyway.

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Originally Posted by cwolff

That's incorrect. My problem with it is that it's a violation of your 4th amendment rights. If we keep giving up these rights piece by piece we'll eventually have no more rights to give up. At that point it's too late to fight back.

To Ker_Thwaps point, unreasonable refers to being stopped for no reason. It's got nothing to do with how they treat you, but why they are talking to you anyway.

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If the law is executed properly there is nothing unreasonable about being stopped or frisked, so it isn't a violation of your rights.

Is that clear enough for you? In no way am I saying what is being done currently is the right way but it isn't the laws fault, it is the fault of those in charge. If we went and applied this logic of yours to everything we'd not have very many laws or political offices left because they are often misused and abused by those in power.

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Originally Posted by cwolff

That's incorrect. My problem with it is that it's a violation of your 4th amendment rights. If we keep giving up these rights piece by piece we'll eventually have no more rights to give up. At that point it's too late to fight back.

To Ker_Thwaps point, unreasonable refers to being stopped for no reason. It's got nothing to do with how they treat you, but why they are talking to you anyway.

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My point is that it's written fuzzily. Grammatically I can argue that it's not the reason for the search that matters, it's the type of actual search. TLDR, it's not as clearly written as you seem to believe. I could care less really, I only wear spandex body suits, so that all my bulges are clearly identified.

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Originally Posted by Jeril

If the law is executed properly there is nothing unreasonable about being stopped or frisked, so it isn't a violation of your rights.

Is that clear enough for you? In no way am I saying what is being done currently is the right way but it isn't the laws fault, it is the fault of those in charge. If we went and applied this logic of yours to everything we'd not have very many laws or political offices left because they are often misused and abused by those in power.

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It's not a law. It's just a policy. The Law is that you don't get stopped and searched without probable cause. Is that clear enough for you?

Using your logic, the authorities can do any damn thing they want as long as they execute it well. There is a huge divide between doing something well and whether or not it should be done at all. Communist countries did great at execution and had very low crime rates but none of us want to be Soviets.

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Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap

My point is that it's written fuzzily. Grammatically I can argue that it's not the reason for the search that matters, it's the type of actual search. TLDR, it's not as clearly written as you seem to believe. I could care less really, I only wear spandex body suits, so that all my bulges are clearly identified.

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This is like saying that the Theory of Evolution is just a theory the same way that Intelligent Design is just a theory. It's not fuzzy. There are and have been many ways around the 4th and it may be that for all intents and purposes we've given up on it. Things like DUI checkpoints, Patriot Act, stop and frisk and more are all breaches of the 4th but done for some greater good. The people just don't seem to have the will to fight it and the erosion is happening slowly. Slow enough that you don't notice.

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Originally Posted by Jeril

From all this I get that your biggest beef with it is that it is currently being poorly executed. This means that the problem isn't with the law itself but with those who are charged with executing it. From the sounds of it this stems from a problem in management, so either get those in charge to change how things are done or fire them and get someone who will.

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The problem is, it's a clear violation of the 4th amendment. It's being "poorly executed" because there is no good way to violate a person's rights.

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While Ker_Thwaps example is a bit extreme I think it does illustrate the point. For something more realistic, I'd see nothing wrong with a cop stopping someone for questioning who looks very out of place for the neighborhood they are in and then frisking them for a bulge in their clothing that looks suspiciously like a gun.

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I have a few arguments against this line of thinking.

1) What gives the cop the right to assume anything about a citizen he works for?
2) What makes someone "out of place?" A black guy walking through a ritzy neighborhood?
3) Since when is it illegal for a citizen to walk down the street with a gun?
4) Wouldn't this be convicting someone of a crime without a trial?

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Once again I'll say it, the problems you have pointed cwolff, are about management and execution nothing against the law itself.

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Mmm...

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Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap

I only wear spandex body suits, so that all my bulges are clearly identified.

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Let me insert (lol) the usual: "Pictures or it didn't happen" comment.

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Originally Posted by cwolff

This is like saying that the Theory of Evolution is just a theory the same way that Intelligent Design is just a theory. It's not fuzzy. There are and have been many ways around the 4th and it may be that for all intents and purposes we've given up on it. Things like DUI checkpoints, Patriot Act, stop and frisk and more are all breaches of the 4th but done for some greater good. The people just don't seem to have the will to fight it and the erosion is happening slowly. Slow enough that you don't notice.

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Uhm, no. It's nothing at all like saying those things. Those are horrible analogies. You said it was clearly written, but it's just not. You can probably make a point in how various courts have interpreted it previously which builds the common law, but grammatically, no. Grammatically as it's written, you're the one making the stretch.

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Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap

Uhm, no. It's nothing at all like saying those things. Those are horrible analogies. You said it was clearly written, but it's just not. You can probably make a point in how various courts have interpreted it previously which builds the common law, but grammatically, no. Grammatically as it's written, you're the one making the stretch.

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Grammatically, as it's written, it's clear as daylight. You're focusing entirely too much on the word "unreasonable" and ignoring the rest of it in context.

It clearly states that your person and/or your property cannot be searched and/or seized without a warrant.

Oh, also...it makes me frown that politics has taken over this thread.